Why the Russian Navy does not intend to abandon dead-end ship projects

August 9 2023 22

The author of this article was prompted by one rather disturbing information. It was stated in the previous article assumptionthat the next target for an attack by Ukrainian terrorists in the Black Sea using MiG-29 fighters carrying air-based anti-ship missiles could be one of the Russian Project 22160 patrol ships that do not have any serious air defense system on a regular basis. So, it turns out that they are trying to continue this frankly dead-end branch of military shipbuilding.

In order to understand why the Russian Navy, despite a couple of decades of quite “fat” years, when petrodollars poured into the federal budget like a river, approached a proxy war with the NATO bloc in the state that we are seeing, it is enough to look at what they spent money. And they went, among other things, to extremely dubious projects that caused a flurry of criticism among real naval experts and those simply not indifferent to the fate of the domestic fleet.

Invisibility

The first project, which actually died a few months ago, bore the code 20386. In the media, this corvette was positioned as the first in Russia, created according to Technology stealth, which is not true. The ship was laid down on October 28, 2016 on the slipway of Severnaya Verf PJSC, but on May 31, 2023, RIA News with reference to its own source in the defense department toldthat the "invisible" corvette is sent for redesign:

The project is not closed, the project continues, but shifts to the right for the period necessary for redesign. Additional elaboration of a number of adopted innovative solutions implemented on this ship was required.

As they say, it took only seven years to understand that something was not going as planned. For a boat with a total displacement of 3400 tons, this is a bit much. So what went wrong?

Probably, the main problem of domestic military shipbuilding is that the customer demands maximum versatility from its products. There is nothing to be surprised here: after the collapse of the USSR and the rupture of industrial cooperation with Ukraine, the construction of large ships of the 1st rank became technically a very difficult task. Therefore, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation tried to turn ordinary corvettes almost into the "Death Star", stuffing them with weapons to the maximum, which automatically led to a lengthening of the construction time and an increase in cost. This was especially evident in the fate of the 20386 project.

From a small ship it was required to be able to operate simultaneously in both near and far sea zones, fight enemy submarines, cover their ships with an air defense umbrella, support amphibious landings and even fight enemy surface ships, remaining invisible on radar. That is, the corvette was required to perform the tasks of a multi-purpose ship of the far sea and ocean displacement zone of project 22350 / 22350M. It's not hard to guess how it ended.

A corvette was looming with a starting cost of 29 billion rubles, which brought it closer in price to the desired multi-purpose frigate. For comparison, mass-produced project 20380/20385 corvettes cost the budget a "pathetic" 18 billion apiece. At the same time, the stealth corvette of project 20386 would have less seaworthiness, cruising range and would be less armed than a frigate. And many more technical claims expressed by experts.
Ten of them were going to be built! However, not a single one was completed in seven years.

The lead corvette of the series was originally called "Mercury", but was first renamed "Daring", and is now sent for redesign. Phenomenal "efficiency" in the use of budgetary funds and, most importantly, time that cannot be rewound. But that's nothing. At the very least, having spent irrationally huge sums, but these half-corvettes-half-frigates could still be forced to really fight and perform other combat missions, which cannot be said about our next hero.

"Doves of War"

As noted above, the number one candidate for sinking by the Ukrainian Air Force as part of the Black Sea Fleet is any ship of project 22160. There is nothing to be surprised at all: these were not originally military, but patrol ships that were developed for the needs of the FSB Coast Guard, but were not useful there and In an "unknown" way, they turned out to be in demand by the Black Sea Fleet. It was assumed that they would fight with Somali and other pirates.

The ships received their unofficial name "pigeons of peace" for their extremely weak armament: a single artillery mount, a pair of DP-65 remote-controlled grenade launchers and two 12,7 mm Kord machine guns. Sea-based air defense systems are not provided for in project 22160. Rather, it is provided, within the framework of an advanced modular system, but in reality it is not. Fighting off the Ukrainian MiG-21 or F-16, if anything, will have to be done either from the Igla MANPADS or from the ground-based Tor air defense system with the appropriate ammunition, fixed by chains on the deck.

The most correct decision seems to be to give the project 22160 to the Coast Guard, for which it was created, taking in return the Russian Navy has two patrol ships of the Nerey project - PSKR "Dzerzhinsky" and PSKR "Eagle". After their repair and modernization, you can get two quite decent PLO frigates. However, it turns out that the developers of the "doves of peace" are not going to calm down at all and intend to turn them into "doves of war". Renat Mistakhov, CEO of the Ak Bars shipbuilding corporation, told RIA Novosti verbatim following:

The designer, in accordance with the result of the construction of the "patrolman", as well as with the proposals and requirements of potential customers, modernized and updated a number of parameters and replaced some systems. The upgraded version of the project 22160 ship is supplemented with guided missile weapons and the Resurs multi-channel anti-aircraft missile system. To promote this project, law enforcement agencies needed to study and present the appearance of the ship with a specific installation of weapons, systems and complexes on it.

That is, instead of forgetting about this dead-end project, they want to swell even more money into it, pushing launchers for Caliber and expensive anti-aircraft missile systems into the hulls of new patrol, non-military ships. According to some estimates, the cost of such a "dove of war" can jump over 20 billion rubles apiece. There are no words.

To occupy production facilities, spend huge budgetary funds on an absolutely dead-end direction, when it would be possible to build more project 22380/22385 corvettes or small PLO corvettes based on Karakurt RTOs, which are really needed and can actually perform a lot of combat missions. There are no words.

Information

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zenion

+5

9 August 2023 17: 14

Dead-end super projects are needed. Without them, the war with Ukraine would not have arisen. It was necessary to think of destroying the USSR. It's like scratching your eyes and the back of your head with your left foot at the same time.
1. Pembo
  
  0
  
  10 August 2023 16: 24
  
  Of course, experiments are needed and they are not always successful, but the ambush of the situation is that the Navy, having laid down the "progressive" project 20386, only having laid and not built a single ship, decided that it was not worth building corvettes according to the "outdated" project 20385, refused to lay corvettes on this project. 6 years passed, it became clear that the 20386 project had failed, and so much so that the corvette had not even managed to be included in the fleet, it was in the rank of an experimental ship. Then the Navy grabbed his head and rushed to lay the project 20385 corvettes, only now you can’t return the time. And yes, experimentation is needed.
In passing

+7

9 August 2023 18: 04

And what, was the task of building something to protect the state?
The comment was deleted.
Vladimir1155

-2

9 August 2023 20: 07

it is obvious that the author is right about the stealth corvette, however, Klimov Timokhin’s ideas about the steamer are not entirely accurate, with an air defense module (the same torus or shell M), this is a very useful ship, and dead-end projects are much more expensive and meaningless than a steamer designed for dry cargo convoys, dead ends are Kuzya money-eater, two UDCs, two BDKs, that is, without minesweepers, without a large number of submarines, without having a BE200 PLO to spend money on four huge peacetime transports and on the senseless Kuzya, it’s criminal!
1. sH, arK
  
  +2
  
  10 August 2023 23: 16
  
  Of course, "Kuzya" is a crazy ship ... Idiotic. But it was created by another country, with other capabilities, and was, in fact, an experimental ship. And with UDC / BDK the question is interesting - where to use them? At least theoretically? But a useless patrolman, at a price superior to a normal frigate, is not needed at all!
Kuramori Reika

0

9 August 2023 20: 31

Failed and dead-end projects are also needed. Competence is developed on their basis. And the ship is a set of a huge number of new components. During service, these new components will be evaluated and either fixed or redesigned. Even if the ship is recognized as a failure, this does not mean that it consisted of 100% unusable parts.
1. Vladimir Tuzakov
  
  +6
  
  9 August 2023 21: 57
  
  Here it is possible to take a closer look at who and why issues such orders from the RF Ministry of Defense. Enormous money is being “sawed”, which is enough for many participants for ten generations to come, and this corruption component has long been not the last in a rut of failures. They had the death of the rockets of Roscosmos, but perhaps the rockets carried dummies from stolen funds and fell, thereby literally blowing the ends literally into the water ... In today's Russian Federation, there is a lot of "incredible, but obvious."
  1. Kuramori Reika
    
    -3
    
    9 August 2023 22: 19
    
    Too far-fetched. No matter how skeptically I look at the Russian Defense Ministry, there are enough people there who would not remain silent.
    1. Vladimir Tuzakov
      
      +7
      
      10 August 2023 10: 57
      
      Replica. The bulk of the officers and employees who would not remain silent were fired by the Serdyukov reforms and recruited by the majority of those who are silent and even participate in scams and theft ... Already such realities, for example, are the culprits in the failure and more than a year and a half of the unsightly conduct of the SVO, continue to sit in their high positions.
lord-palladore-11045

0

9 August 2023 22: 52

It is also necessary to experiment in shipbuilding - this is the accumulation of experience. The Americans also built their Zamvolta with a thought in their heads. These are the mistakes that are worth paying money for. It was this experiment that created the T-34 tank just before the war, for which many thanks to its creator.
hellman anton

-1

10 August 2023 00: 25

Instead of a promising and cost-effective project that involves dropping missiles using a transport aircraft, they continue to cut billions of useless ships that carry 8-16 missiles and become completely useless.
A transport aircraft with a launch container will be able to go to the launch site in an hour (fly 500 km), return to the base in one and a half and fly again. The crew of the transporter is 7-10 people.
But as you know, the dumber the better. We will make another 10 carriers of cruise missiles for 100500 billion)
1. Nelton
  
  +2
  
  10 August 2023 10: 45
  
  A warship, at least theoretically, can fight off an attack by drone missiles.
  A transport aircraft is guaranteed to be shot down if there are air defense systems (and they are).
  
  Well, if for cheapness - then optimally - launchers in a container design, transported by trucks, including 5 false ones for one combat one (and transporting false ones - by unmanned trucks).
TsarBomba

-2

10 August 2023 00: 34

Bonjour à tous, en 2023 je trouve ça "débile" les gros navires, les gros chars, les bases, en fait tout ce qui est une grosse cible souvent lente voir immobile! J'opterais que pour des petits robots dans la triade + espace (air, mer, terre, espace) oui de petits robots avec une capacité de neutralization à chaque fois sur mesure. Par exemple pour attaquer, un "lancet" (drone x wing) avec une ogive à cristaux de quark (mieux que le nucléaire, plus petit, plus léger) pour traiter des cibles avec de l'équivalence à 100Kt... pour surveiller c 'est pareil! de petites choses et en nombres! L'ideal serait de surveiller et en même temps avoir la capacité de neutralisé. ETpourquoi pas même embarquer une IA qui, à la fois commande et exécute? Cible ennemie détectée, neutralization possible pendant x secondes, attente contre ordre, neutralization fenêtre augmentée, attente contre ordre, attention neutralization en dégradation ni contre ordre ni communication d'avertissement possible: feu!
Object.F7

0

10 August 2023 01: 54

Sergey, with regards to the topic of patrolmen, you were overly led by the crying of the ipso-all-propellers and did not sufficiently study the characteristics of these ships.

Today they patrol the Black Sea, but initially they were designed for the possibility of serving on long voyages, it was for this task that they dipped in speed, but they have an impressive cruising range and autonomy (of course, the enemies of Russia cannot like this and there is a shaft of custom hat). Someone will say, what should they do in the oceans, they are too small, but how did the Fletchers cope with their displacement in World War II, or since then the oceans have become somehow different !?

If a group of ships is formed from Gorshkovs, corvettes 20380/5, pl and landing ships, then escort-support ships will also be needed. So, in addition to cannons and machine guns, you completely ignored the electronic equipment of the ship, the ability to provide target designation to other ships of the warrant, the existing gateway for launching and receiving an armored landing boat on the move (here is a separate song, the noiselessness of water jets, work in shallow water, maneuverability, can move There is a boat - the dream of special forces), the presence of a hangar for drones and a helicopter. Yes, one Ka-52K on board is already a wow "dove of peace", it can give out such surprises. The modularity envisaged by the project provides ample opportunities if 6 such patrolmen are included in the marching order: two of them can have Katrans on board, two can be multi-purpose transporters, and two more can be sharpened into anti-submarine tasks, take an anti-submarine helicopter, leave an armored boat at the base, and use the ship's gateway to work with surface or underwater drones to control the underwater situation, now drones are developing by leaps and bounds, what the hell is "dead end" here? Here is the future!

There is no need to disfigure Karakurt (with low autonomy) for anti-submarine tasks, when 22160 are a much better base for these tasks. And the fact that the ships will close their weaknesses by installing acceptable air defense and X-35 anti-ship missiles is very cool. The project is not as bad as many people think or want
1. Mish
  
  +2
  
  10 August 2023 07: 42
  
  Quote: Object.F7
  Sergey, with regards to the topic of patrolmen, you were overly led by the crying of the ipso-all-propellers and did not sufficiently study the characteristics of these ships.
  
  Today they patrol the Black Sea, but initially they were designed for the possibility of serving on long voyages, it was for this task that they dipped in speed, but they have an impressive cruising range and autonomy (of course, the enemies of Russia cannot like this and there is a shaft of custom hat). Someone will say, what should they do in the oceans, they are too small, but how did the Fletchers cope with their displacement in World War II, or since then the oceans have become somehow different !?
  
  If a group of ships is formed from Gorshkovs, corvettes 20380/5, pl and landing ships, then escort-support ships will also be needed. So, in addition to cannons and machine guns, you completely ignored the electronic equipment of the ship, the ability to provide target designation to other ships of the warrant, the existing gateway for launching and receiving an armored landing boat on the move (here is a separate song, the noiselessness of water jets, work in shallow water, maneuverability, can move There is a boat - the dream of special forces), the presence of a hangar for drones and a helicopter. Yes, one Ka-52K on board is already a wow "dove of peace", it can give out such surprises. The modularity envisaged by the project provides ample opportunities if 6 such patrolmen are included in the marching order: two of them can have Katrans on board, two can be multi-purpose transporters, and two more can be sharpened into anti-submarine tasks, take an anti-submarine helicopter, leave an armored boat at the base, and use the ship's gateway to work with surface or underwater drones to control the underwater situation, now drones are developing by leaps and bounds, what the hell is "dead end" here? Here is the future!
  
  There is no need to disfigure Karakurt (with low autonomy) for anti-submarine tasks, when 22160 are a much better base for these tasks. And the fact that the ships will close their weaknesses by installing acceptable air defense and X-35 anti-ship missiles is very cool. The project is not as bad as many people think or want
  
  Modularity in the USA is recognized as unpromising. Not only does it take up to a month to replace, you also have to keep the second or third crew
  1. Scharnhorst
    
    0
    
    10 August 2023 13: 39
    
    Modularity in the US is recognized as unpromising.
    
    I would rephrase: American modularity is futile. Why do you dislike modularity in the sense of replacing an anti-submarine helicopter with an attack or AWACS; replacement of a container with calibers for a container with "Thor" or BUGAS; replacement of an anti-mine drone with a reconnaissance or strike one? How many times have the situation and tasks of Black Sea Fleet surface ships changed over the course of a year and a half? From the threat of landing on Odessa to the protection of the gas pipeline, from the air defense of the naval base to countering naval drones. Yes, to counter permanent threats, specialized ships are needed (minesweepers, RTOs, PLO corvettes), and to combat newly emerging threats or to strengthen the fight against permanent ones, universal modular patrolmen are needed.
2. Beidodir
  
  +1
  
  10 August 2023 11: 47
  
  Today they patrol the Black Sea, but initially they were designed for the possibility of serving on long voyages, it was for this task that they dipped in speed, but they have an impressive cruising range and autonomy (of course, the enemies of Russia cannot like this and there is a shaft of custom hat). Someone will say, what should they do in the oceans, they are too small, but how did the Fletchers cope with their displacement in World War II, or since then the oceans have become somehow different !?
  
  Interestingly, by the end of the summer of 2023, Russia forgot in long-distance ocean voyages? Specifically?
  
  If a group of ships is formed from Gorshkovs, corvettes 20380/5, pl and landing ships, then escort-support ships will also be needed. So, in addition to cannons and machine guns, you completely ignored the electronic equipment of the ship, the ability to provide target designation to other ships of the warrant, the existing gateway for launching and receiving an armored landing boat on the move (here is a separate song, the noiselessness of water jets, work in shallow water, maneuverability, can move There is a boat - the dream of special forces), the presence of a hangar for drones and a helicopter.
  
  That is, project 22350 frigates and 20380/5 corvettes will be guarded by project 22160 patrol ships?
  
  The modularity envisaged by the project provides ample opportunities if 6 such patrolmen are included in the marching order: two of them can have Katrans on board, two can be multi-purpose transporters, and two more can be sharpened into anti-submarine tasks, take an anti-submarine helicopter, leave an armored boat at the base, and use the ship's gateway to work with surface or underwater drones to control the underwater situation, now drones are developing by leaps and bounds, what the hell is "dead end" here? Here is the future!
  
  There is a counter offer: you can take a multi-purpose barge and put a helicopter, air defense systems and launch cells for Caliber, as well as sea drones on it. The idea is about the same.
  
  There is no need to disfigure Karakurt (with low autonomy) for anti-submarine tasks, when 22160 are a much better base for these tasks.
  
  What special autonomy do small PLO corvettes need in BMZ? It is enough to increase the displacement of Karakurt to 1,5 tons.
  
  And the fact that the ships will close their weaknesses by installing acceptable air defense and X-35 anti-ship missiles is very cool. The project is not as bad as many people think or want
  
  Sticking such serious and expensive weapons into a bad patrol ship is simply a crime against the Russian Navy, which is already in crisis. With this money, you can and should build normal corvettes, normal frigates and normal super-Karakurt-PLO. Everything else is a waste of money.
depavel

0

10 August 2023 09: 15

Interesting reviews of professional shipbuilders, N.P. Patrushev and Kiriyenko!
wamp

0

10 August 2023 11: 07

The author has a complete mess-pun in his head.
Either project 20386 became 3400 tons (out of 1800t pr. 20380), then he wants to transfer border ships pr. 22160 to the coast guard (completely different tasks).

Etc. 22160 is, in fact, a floating base for a helicopter and a high-speed boat with a landing force, which perform the tasks of detention, inspection, ..... The ship itself provides relatively comfortable living conditions for the crew, which, according to the specifics of the service, more than at times on others ships, is at sea on patrol. And there was already a message that the construction of new ones has been suspended for the time being.

Project 20386 is a relatively small-sized warship, in which part of the weapons can be located in two interchangeable containers / modules. This allows you to permanently or briefly change combat capabilities. At the same time, various missiles (small-large, air defense, anti-aircraft defense or shock) or anti-submarine warfare systems (submersible / towed GAS) or transport volumes can be loaded. Such modularity implies the ability to quickly reload or change weapons or the carrier itself for repair / modernization.
1. Beidodir
  
  0
  
  10 August 2023 11: 39
  
  then he wants to transfer border ships pr.22160 to the coast guard (completely different tasks).
  
  Well, yes, this author is a strange dude, he proposes to transfer the patrol ships that were created for the Coast Guard to the Coast Guard, and take the ships of the Nerey project, which were created for the Russian Navy, from the Coast Guard, and give them to the Russian Navy.
  
  The author has a complete mess-pun in his head.
  
  It’s as if he has a confusion-mumbur, not like you and customers from the Ministry of Defense
Flight

0

11 August 2023 08: 20

In the absence of fresh thoughts, it remains to hope for what is available, otherwise you can remain without work. The main process, and the content is secondary.
Elena123

0

2 September 2023 11: 20

Gotta make money! Instead of the Black Sea Fleet having 200 or more powerful warships of various kinds, approximately 9000/10000 unmanned warships, they are doing stupid things.
But there is no money for such construction projects, since you have to steal!