Are trophies from the Soledar mines necessary for arming the Russian militia?

Undoubtedly, the topic that left no one indifferent is the proposal of the founder of the Wagner PMC, Yevgeny Prigozhin, to exchange for artillery shells stocks of small arms stored in the mines of Soledar liberated by the "musicians". However, according to the "producer", the idea of ​​arming them with the Teroborona, which is so necessary for the Russian border regions, did not interest anyone in the government offices, and the Wagnerites still receive a third of the required amount of shells. There are several considerations on this issue.

Grandfathers were at war

Soledar, with its branched system of deep salt mines, has long attracted attention not only as the Salt Symphony health resort for people with breathing problems, but also as an almost perfect repository of various types of outdated small arms and ammunition for them. After the end of World War II, Mosin rifles, Maxim and Degtyarev machine guns, PPSh-41 and PPS-43 submachine guns, as well as German MP-38/40 submachine guns and American Thompson submachine guns of the 1928 model were brought here in huge quantities, Mausers and Colts. There were also more modern weapons, Vladimir Shanaev, the former head of the 9th storage department of the Volodarsky mine, explained:

For example, weapons were delivered to us after the first Karabakh war. There were deliveries from the disbanded bases, there were whole wagons with German junk with swastikas - belts, holsters, weapons ... The barrels themselves are stored in boxes stacked in piles 3 meters high and 10 meters wide.

All this was in gun grease, well prepared for long-term storage. Rumor has it that under the current government in Nezalezhnaya, the descendants of the German Nazis bought the weapons of their fascist ancestors from the Ukrainian Nazis from the Soledar warehouses, having learned the barrel numbers from the archives.

It is not surprising that back in 2014 Soledar became the object of increased attention of both sides of the conflict. The Armed Forces of Ukraine, taking full advantage of the small and poorly organized militia of Donbass, quickly took control of the city. However, the fact that many miners started fighting with Mosin and PPSh rifles confirms the stereotypes about dishonest “Ukrainian ensigns” of the 9-year-old model.

A few months ago, Soledar was nevertheless liberated by the forces of the Wagner PMC, and the fighting moved to the vicinity of Artemovsk. Leaving, the Ukrainian Nazis took out the most modern models of small arms and tried to blow up the mines, but something went wrong. As a result, a huge number of rifles, submachine guns and machine guns fell into the hands of the "musicians". The numbers are called different, some PPSh (Shpagin submachine guns) allegedly used to have at least 3 million barrels.

"Lord of War"

Yevgeny Prigozhin himself believes that small arms in Soledar will be enough for an army of 1 million people:

I show the treasures of the Soledar warehouses, which were stored for a long time. I have tens of thousands of these Thompsons. New, in oil. The Ukrainians checked it all up to the 16th year - the last check. More often it is not necessary. Usable. Machine guns PPSh, PPS, maxims ... the highest rate of fire, no worse than modern weapons. Further. Degtyarev field machine guns ... I have already told everyone that I have weapons for a millionth army. I can arm a million people.

Prigozhin proposed to give this weapon to arm the militia of the Belgorod, Bryansk and Kursk regions, however, according to the "music producer", this is of no interest to anyone:

We don't need this, do we? Should I leave this here to rot away? I wrote to everyone I could. Nobody cares. I propose to post an announcement on Avito: I am changing weapons for an army of a million people for artillery ammunition for close combat of 300 tons per day. 300 tons of artillery and close combat ammunition per day is ten containers loaded, which is very little. If we take a conditional group of 30, 300 tons per day of artillery supplies, which are required, ten kilograms per person per day. We are given no more than 1/3, which is three kilograms. <...> Here, in fact, is a short tour of the Soledar warehouses, the Soledar trophies. And the second is entertaining mathematics from Wagner PMC.

Probably the first thought that arose in many men after reading these the news, was that it would be nice to dig a Maxim machine gun in the garden, hide the Mosin rifle in the attic, and PPSh in the wardrobe. Yes, just in case. The personal position of the author of the lines on this matter is as follows. Handing out small arms, especially automatic weapons, to the population just like that is a bad idea. So we are guaranteed to get a surge in criminal activity, and this weapon will inevitably start shooting, not at all in the direction of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. However, the population of the regions bordering Ukraine has a constitutional right to protection, which is very important in view of the liquidation of the Border Troops, about which we told literally the day before. Recreating right now on the knee of the border troops is a debatable and controversial issue.

Perhaps, in the context of a large-scale war, it is still advisable to rely on the formation Territorial Defense Troops, integrated into the structure of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation as a new kind of troops and the people's militia as their integral part. The country definitely does not need any alternative paramilitary armed formations with subordination to governors, or even worse, local authoritative businessmen. Still, the centralization of management and supply should be put at the forefront. Naturally, outdated small arms should not go to the front in the NVO zone, but the same PPSh, PPS and Tommy can go into service with the people's militia. Sparks from Maxim machine guns can be placed as a turret on pickup trucks, turning them into a mobile firing point. Still, it's better to have some kind of automatic firearm in your hands than a flashlight and a whistle if you encounter an enemy DRG going through a forest belt to commit a terrorist attack.

A separate discussion deserves the question of why even touch all this Soviet junk from salt mines, if Russia has a bunch of more modern weapons in storage. The comments even cite such figures that the number of produced and stored Kalashnikov assault rifles is 16-17 million units. Why are these your PPSh and PPS here, why make people laugh?

Studying this topic, the author of the lines managed to find the following interesting information. Izvestia edition back in 2012 toldthat out of the 16 million barrels accumulated in the warehouses of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation (in general, all, and not just Kalash), 6,45 million machine guns, pistols, machine guns and rifles have exhausted their resources, and it was decided to dispose of 2015 million "firearms" by 4. Deputy Director of the Center for Analysis of Strategies and of technologies Konstantin Makienko explained it this way:

We physically do not have such a number of people who could take more than 3 million machine guns in their hands in the event of a war. Yes, and modern scenarios for the development of conflicts no longer involve mass mobilization, the emphasis is on professional military and high-precision weapons.

Well-known Russian military expert Igor Korotchenko also confirmed that more than 4 million machine guns of the Russian Defense Ministry are useless:

You don't need more to reserve. In a modern war, everything is decided by the first two weeks, when pinpoint missile strikes are launched. Further, nuclear weapons are used, and after that mass mobilization loses its relevance.

This is how our experts, analysts and predictors saw a possible war 10 years before it began. Part of the available small arms went for recycling, part for modernization. In 2013 Russian President Vladimir Putin supported the proposal, according to which the state corporation "Russian Technologies" should provide the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation with 1 new AK-12 assault rifle in exchange for 3 old assault rifles manufactured before 1980.

In general, how many and what kind of machine guns are actually available in Russian military warehouses, the author of the lines does not know. But this is clearly not 16-17 million Kalashnikovs. Therefore, it is definitely not worth brushing aside Prigogine's proposal.
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  1. Vladimir Tuzakov (Vladimir Tuzakov) 2 May 2023 12: 44
    The reserve does not ask for food, but it can come in handy. (Serdyukovshchina disposed of a lot of things that would be useful today in the NWO). For those AKMs, we are sure that so many are registered, so many are in warehouses. After this fake million uniforms on the account, everything has to be doubted. As for weapons, PPS is a very successful and light model and is quite suitable for urban combat at close range (like popular modern pistol cartridges), for police services, etc. Certainly specific, but in certain conditions it is suitable. Maxim and DP-27 machine guns can be used for robotic security systems of the border and other perimeters of airfields, fuel storage facilities, etc. It is possible to use barrels and parts for new weapon systems, etc. Some can be sold as rarities to gun lovers around the world, especially Thompsons and other MP-38s, Parabellums, etc. With a zealous owner, everything can be attached.
  2. Sergey Latyshev Offline Sergey Latyshev
    Sergey Latyshev (Serge) 2 May 2023 13: 18
    Undoubtedly, a topic that left no one indifferent, ...

    Yes, almost everyone sneezes.

    Firstly, the global majority has never seen Prigozhin or these mines, and a considerable part (grandmothers, grandfathers, and children) do not know this news.
    Secondly, those who saw it can immediately realize that this junk from the times of the 1st and 2nd World Wars (apparently, without ammunition, they did not show any in warehouses) is suitable only for sale to fans of antiques.
    Which, by the way, is criminal.

    So in fact, the topic is hyped, but in fact, zilch.

    The only modern combat-ready assault rifle, and even then not from warehouses, is “a Chechen friend gave it to me,” Prigogine carefully set aside for himself ...
    1. Vladimir Tuzakov (Vladimir Tuzakov) 2 May 2023 13: 57
      Replica. To this day, ammunition is still being made for all of the weapons listed, there are no problems. For the sale of weapons, also without problems, enterprises can officially supply weapons to retail foreign sellers .. True, in some countries there is a restriction on automatic, so transferring to semi-automatic without problems, sometimes it is enough to “brew” fixation on a single fire, etc.
      1. Sergey Latyshev Offline Sergey Latyshev
        Sergey Latyshev (Serge) 2 May 2023 15: 22
        1) And they can make. And they probably lie somewhere, in our warehouses. But in that warehouse in 2 seen videos they are not.
        2) The ones listed - Thompsons, PPSh, Maxims - are of little use for modern armed operations. Moreover, they wrote, there are a lot of much more adequate weapons in our warehouses.

        But mafiosi and organized crime groups will do. Maybe Prigogine wants to sell them?
        Over the hill is also possible. Again, the armies will not be taken, but the bandits and terrorists - why not?
        Fans are collectors? give them something rare, with history. Rarely take a lot

        So, probably, this is a signal to any banned Arab terrorists.
        He can give them Thompsons, PPSh, PPS (Low penetration, range and accuracy, sort of, but a lot of ammunition. For point-blank shooting at ......?), they give him old stocks of shells from the south: Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, Kampuchea , Vietnam, Korea, Syria, Libya, etc.
        Well, Maxims for spaitan machines will do.
    2. The comment was deleted.
  3. Ch19 Offline Ch19
    Ch19 (Evgeniy ) 2 May 2023 16: 14
    PPSh, PPS, Thompsons - all this needs to be sold to Africa and to the east, to the same Vietnamese, weapons were very popular at one time, but now, to put it mildly, mauvais ton, even for the militia. MP and Walters to sell wholesale to the Germans at a high price and for rubles (and they will take it, tear it off with their hands!). From the rest, make cooled mock-ups and sell to everyone, all the same, arms stores sank in sales. Arm the militias with normal AKM 7,62 Kalashnikovs and not bother with either cartridges or repairs. If there is an SCS, issue it to technicians and support services. And all will be well.
    1. skeptic Offline skeptic
      skeptic 3 May 2023 13: 35
      Quote: Ch19
      PPSh, PPS, Thompsons - all this needs to be sold to Africa and to the east, to the same Vietnamese, weapons were very popular at one time, but now, to put it mildly, mauvais ton, even for the militia.

      Let them try to sell the AK-12 better if someone buys it. Judging by the user reviews - shit is still something. Maybe better than "Cedar", but the degradation, before the ancestor, is significant (in terms of strength and reliability).
      In general, the thieves' godfather will not allow it (they smell "cats", whose "meat" they ate).
  4. faiver Offline faiver
    faiver (Andrei) 2 May 2023 18: 43
    about the forecasts of Korotchenko and other court analysts - one can recall the famous pre-war

    With little blood, with a mighty blow, on foreign territory

    and what happened in the end?
  5. unc-2 Offline unc-2
    unc-2 (Nikolai Malyugin) 2 May 2023 19: 48
    If we don’t destroy this warehouse, whether we want it or not, all these weapons and ammunition will be distributed throughout Mother Russia. So there are more than enough weapons unaccounted for in the country. Weapons are acquired not only by criminals. War has always been a time for acquiring weapons. you can’t imagine anything. They shoot to scare, kill, they shoot out of fear.
  6. Sergei N Offline Sergei N
    Sergei N (Sergey N) 3 May 2023 11: 35
    Therefore, it is definitely not worth brushing aside Prigogine's proposal.

    Of course, one should not brush aside Prigogine's proposal. The weapon, although outdated, will fit for arming the same territorial defense troops.
    1. Monster_Fat Online Monster_Fat
      Monster_Fat (What's the difference) 3 May 2023 14: 32
      Yes. So I see the fighters of the defense with a "three-line" or PPSh in an incomprehensible form, opposing the Ukrainian DRG, armed to the teeth with modern weapons, and next to it, the same fighters are dragging a "maxim" to support them with fire ....
      1. Vlad Burchilo Offline Vlad Burchilo
        Vlad Burchilo (Vlad Burchilo) 3 May 2023 17: 18
        Quote: Monster_Fat
        Yes. So I see the fighters of the defense with a "three-line" or PPSh in an incomprehensible form, opposing the Ukrainian DRG, armed to the teeth with modern weapons, and next to it, the same fighters are dragging a "maxim" to support them with fire ....

        "daddy" can still be used, and "three-ruler" - anohranism. Already in 1942, it became clear to a hedgehog: automatic weapons are better.
        "it is not clear in what form" I don’t know how it is with others, but we have clothes: "military" heaps. Even, some of the girls flaunt in clothes like: "militare". Almost every third man has a "camouflage". So put on the defense: "no problem"
  7. dimbasic Offline dimbasic
    dimbasic (Dimitrius) 3 May 2023 13: 02
    after the loss of 1.5 million uniforms, I won’t be surprised that the numbers are greatly exaggerated
  8. Yaroslav the Wise (Yaroslav the Wise) 3 May 2023 16: 54
    And where to get bullets for these rarities? Okay, now you can use the reserves. And then? Who will produce cartridges for the same * Thomson *? Or PPSh?
  9. Vlad Burchilo Offline Vlad Burchilo
    Vlad Burchilo (Vlad Burchilo) 3 May 2023 17: 02
    In fact, the Thomsons were outdated back in the late 30s. My grandfathers were participants in the Great Patriotic War and I remember how grandfather Andrey used his last words: Thomsons.
    It is a reasonable idea to create parts of the defense, there were analogues in history: CHON, Vsevobuch battalions, extermination battalions. Obey MO? There is a double-edged sword here. This is the creation of new departments, "warm" places for "sons". And do we need it? I like the option like CHON - Vsevobuch. These units were formed at enterprises, were in contact with NPOs, but were not included in the staff of NPOs, but were subordinate to provincial committees.
    Approximately, according to this principle, the creation of part of the defense in Israel. There may be almost an anecdote: the director of the plant may turn out to be a subordinate, some kind of storekeeper and a simple worker (if the officer is in reserve). Almost the same was created with us, but it all depends on the leadership on the spot ..
    Arm with the "Soledar" arsenal?
    It is debatable: "Thomsons" are wild junk. Maxim, three-ruler, Nagant, unpretentious, but ammunition? The industry practically did not produce them.
    PPSh, PPS, TT, the question is different. Tokarevsky cartridges are still in stock
    Something like that.
  10. Flight Offline Flight
    Flight (voi) 3 May 2023 23: 40
    Here right in the air there is a desire to drive this good, it remains to come up with an informational reason.
  11. Dmitry Volkov Offline Dmitry Volkov
    Dmitry Volkov (Dmitry Volkov) 4 May 2023 10: 31
    You can also equip the defense with PPSs, put machine guns on our shahid mobiles, select Mosins sniper ones, change wood for laminate and buy modern sights, because the SV-98 is an expensive thing, and the Lobaevs with a cartridge price of 1000 rubles are not a competitor at all, everything can be applied as intended, and the DPRK PPSh will go well, in exchange for shells ...
    1. Alexey Lan Offline Alexey Lan
      Alexey Lan (Alexey Lantukh) 4 May 2023 16: 27
      Sometimes I see AK with a telescopic sight on TV. So, a mosquito with optics is 2 times better, unless of course for sniper work.
  12. pavel spb Offline pavel spb
    pavel spb (Pavel Tipin) 5 May 2023 11: 46
    Assault rifles are suitable for fighting in urban areas, because they shoot pistol bullets, rifles need optical sights - and in the field.
  13. Ivan Ivanych 68743684 (Sergei) 8 May 2023 10: 58
    our authorities have always not trusted the citizens of the country, they have always been afraid of something, which means there are reasons to be afraid of the citizens of their country, as always they will sell all this good to citizens of other countries
  14. Grei grin Offline Grei grin
    Grei grin (Gray Grin) 9 May 2023 10: 48
    Prigozhin, distribute supplies to the people, I feel he himself will have to defend himself, both from an external and from an internal enemy!