Was the Red Army worth a preemptive strike on the Wehrmacht?

58
As you know, Nazi Germany attacked the USSR on June 22, 1941. At the cost of tens of millions of lives, the Soviet people accomplished a real feat, ending the war four years later in the lair of the aggressor, Berlin. For many years, the anti-Soviet tried to equate Comrade Stalin with Hitler, attributing to him the plans for an attack on the Third Reich.





The so-called “Viktor Suvorov”, whose real name is Vladimir Rezun, our former intelligence officer who became a defector, was especially “distinguished” in this simpler way. His fantasies in an essay entitled “Icebreaker” have long been refuted, and they are not the subject of this discussion.

But, if you try to ignore real historical events, was there in the very idea of ​​a preemptive strike on the territory of the enemy, the war with which is inevitable, healthy grain? Let's try to speculate on this topic. We emphasize that we in no way ascribe these plans to the Soviet leadership, since there are no facts, this confirms, except for the speculations of Suvorov and his followers. The question will be in the format “what if ...”, and a convincing request not to take the hypotheses to heart. We are not talking about a kind of "revisionism."

Consider two basic options that could theoretically take place in the case of the decision to “beat first”. Suvorov even personally came up with the name for such a plan - Thunderstorm. The followers of Rezun indicate that the Soviet leadership concentrated 1941 million soldiers, more than 2,2 thousand guns and mortars, 37 tanks and more than 6500 tanks and armored vehicles on its western border by May 8000. Allegedly, all this force was supposed to invade Eastern and Southeastern Europe and move to Berlin first.

Fast victory?


With the most optimal outcome of events, Soviet troops could theoretically encircle the German forces and defeat them. Europe is not Russia, dear beautiful, Berlin is just a stone's throw away. In the event of a series of high-profile defeats, the Allies would have turned their back on Germany very quickly and sided with the USSR.

France at that time was actually deprived political subjectivity, Great Britain sat on its island and did not have a sufficiently strong land army to quickly occupy the "denazified" Western Europe. The United States did not yet become a superpower. And then the rich imagination of some authors even draws a blessed picture:

A socialist camp created within the framework of the Old World would control most of the Earth’s resources.


But still try to be closer to reality, even in our "alternative" history.

A terrible defeat?


Unfortunately, 1941 and 1942 showed that the Wehrmacht surpassed the Red Army of those years in terms of training and the effectiveness of the execution of the plan. Even if the Soviet troops were the first to cross the border and inflict a series of defeats, using the effect of surprise, the German command would quickly regroup forces and, taking advantage of speed and maneuverability, begin to produce swift encirclement of the Red Army units with their subsequent inevitable defeat already on its territory.

Soviet soldiers would end up in cauldrons and die under enemy flank and rear attacks. And from such a trap they would not have any chance to get out. A defeat on enemy territory would already be more terrible and crushing than what was in reality.

Fortunately for all of us, a similar adventure was not realized by the leadership of the USSR, and the war ended the way it ended.
58 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. +1
    April 24 2019 16: 14
    Based on what the fascists from NATO are doing, the answer is yes.
  2. +2
    April 24 2019 18: 21
    Maybe it was worth it, but then the history of the Red Army would go down as a regular army of the aggressor state ...
  3. +3
    April 24 2019 21: 08
    Such topics that may discredit our state do not need to be raised at all. After all, the United States does not raise the topic that the CIA blew up the towers!
  4. -3
    April 25 2019 08: 19
    So that the Siberian divisions could take part in the battle for Moscow, they had to be delivered there. To reserve rolling stock, prepare loading stations, provide trains on the way ..... I think that these plans began to work before June 22.
    1. +1
      April 25 2019 11: 08
      Planning and preparation for sure were, but only for defensive actions. You forgot about the other side of the issue. Industrial sites outside the Urals were also prepared well in advance to receive dismantled plants. No need to work for the enemy, Cyril.
      1. 0
        April 25 2019 16: 11
        Industrial sites outside the Urals were also prepared well in advance to receive dismantled plants.

        Evgeny. Here it is! Someone was so sure of the loss of industrial areas that he decided to pour concrete for the economy not in the Urals of the Stalin line, but in pits beyond the Urals.
        1. +1
          April 25 2019 16: 22
          Yes, Cyril, Stalin and his People's Commissars, unlike many cheers-patriots, were realists and strategists, knowing the power of Germany and the present state of the capabilities of the USSR.
          At present, we have exactly the same situation, only we do not have Stalin or the leader of the country equivalent to him, but around us is the European Union, the USA with satellites, Japan (in fact, the USA + Japan + Reich is much more powerful).
          And your petty hints would be better for you to hold on or shove in there, you know where.
          1. 0
            April 25 2019 16: 51
            No need to work for the enemy

            And your petty hints would be better for you to hold on or shove where you yourself know where.

            Evgeny. I thought it was a free platform where people express their opinions, backed by arguments.
            Well, when there are no arguments, they become personal, and only then they begin to find fault with spelling.
            The topic is in the title of the article, the issue is raised. I will say this: if we had "liberated" Ploiesti early, the Red Army and the Wehrmacht could have become allies at all.
  5. +3
    April 25 2019 11: 04
    It seems to me that it was not worth it. This would be an occasion for the unification of the entire West against the USSR as an aggressor. Then they certainly would not have survived.
    And this problem with the attack of the united West is not a thing of the past.
  6. +2
    April 25 2019 12: 24
    The normal version that I came across in fiction - so that the USSR does not look like an aggressor in the face of the "world community" - is a massive artillery strike (counterpreparation) on the German troops' concentration areas at the moment when their bomber aircraft crossed the border.
    1. +2
      April 25 2019 16: 25
      Boris, this is a great option if it was done competently. Only here, our generals, according to some signs, at that time betrayed Stalin and the country.
      1. -1
        April 26 2019 08: 56
        There was information that Pavlov was recruited by German intelligence while in captivity during the First World War. It is difficult, of course, now to find out the truth, whether it is so or not, but judging by the stupidity that was happening on the Western front, it was so.
  7. +2
    April 25 2019 14: 51
    Quote: DigitalError
    Maybe it was worth it, but then the history of the Red Army would go down as a regular army of the aggressor state ...

    Yes you are right.
  8. 0
    April 25 2019 15: 30
    The analysis is superficial. If we were the first to attack, the result would be deplorable for the Nazis. Our troops would not be "spread out" along the border in several echelons, but concentrated on the bridgeheads for the attack. We had a clear numerical superiority and some technical advantage. And the fuel and ammunition depots would be close to the attackers. Not everything is so simple. Technically, we would have won. The experience of the German army at that time was equal to a walk in Europe with the surrender of entire countries. But politically. It is hard to hide that the Germans were supported by the whole Europe, including England (which facilitated the transfer of the Sudetenland to the Germans), and the mattresses there showed their ears (G. Ford was Adolf's sidekick). And the face of the year for Times magazine. The war with us is most likely a planned thing. Most likely the enemy has changed. But at that time we had the largest army. And the result of our preemptive strike would be positive. The eastern block would be washed by the Atlantic. But would we keep this prostitute Europe in our influence?
    1. +3
      April 25 2019 16: 27
      And then the whole world would be organized against us, including Japan and Turkey, as well as Finland.
  9. +3
    April 25 2019 16: 02
    A preemptive strike on Germany meant the complete defeat of the USSR in the war. By autumn, the Germans would be in Moscow.
    All other assumptions, versions, alternatives are just nonsense of the inflamed imagination.
    Tons of waste paper are written on this subject. Halder’s dream did not come true “the Russians are unlikely to give us a gift in the form of an offensive”
  10. -1
    April 25 2019 16: 18
    As soon as Adolf felt our movement near the oil fields of Ploiesti and Narvik, he had no choice.
    1. +2
      April 25 2019 16: 46
      Are you serious? Rezun read?
      1. -1
        April 25 2019 17: 09
        Rezun read?

        Of course I read it. I am not one of those who "have not read, but I condemn." As well as a whole layer of his critics and fans. We will not discuss it now, as requested by the author of the article.
        Here is the headquarters. At the headquarters of the generals. What are they doing? They draw arrows on maps. The more maps they draw in peacetime, the better. If they work well, then all options should be considered.
        And then Rezun will find one card and will wave it, - "See! We were getting ready!", Pupkin will find a summary plate, - "Here! If you didn't strike, it wasn't worth it."

        A preemptive strike on Germany meant the complete defeat of the USSR in the war. By autumn, the Germans would be in Moscow.

        Well, convince us!
        1. +1
          April 25 2019 18: 33
          This has been discussed so many times ...
          You have indicated two points on the map. What “movements” did Ploiesti and Narvik have?
          1. 0
            April 25 2019 18: 43
            You have indicated two points on the map. What “movements” did Ploiesti and Narvik have?

            Our two "liberation" campaigns of 1939-40. We are pretty close to the "pain points" of Germany, sources of oil and ore. And they stopped. They began to build airfields, lay roads ...
            1. +3
              April 25 2019 19: 11
              What do you say .... How much oil did Germany receive from Romania and how much from the USSR?
              What roads and airfields cost Narvik? Did the USSR make claims against Sweden? What kind? Supplies of raw materials from Romania, Sweden and the USSR were uninterrupted.
              1. +1
                April 25 2019 19: 23
                Let's start with Narvik ...

                In early October 1939, a German naval base was created 35 km northwest of Murmansk to refuel and repair German military ships and submarines. The Germans used the base during the campaign in Norway, with which, as you know, the Soviet Union had normal diplomatic relations for many years. (After the occupation of Norway and Denmark in the spring of 1940, the USSR closed their missions in Moscow.) The German Navy Commander Admiral Raeder expressed his gratitude to the Soviet government after the Base Nord was abandoned by the Germans in September of that year in connection with the cessation of military operations in Norway. When the war began, the Soviet authorities detained the ships of England and its allies in the harbor of Murmansk to enable German ships to safely reach their ports in Germany. German ships used shelter in the harbor of Murmansk and during the operations of the German Navy. In Murmansk, the German auxiliary cruisers, conducting military operations against England, were refueled with food and fuel. The USSR supplied the Germans with meteorological reports, which were then used by the Luftwaffe in the bombing of England. For their part, during the Soviet-Finnish war, the Germans restricted the movement of their ships in the Baltic and Black Seas. Then the Soviet authorities again detained in Murmansk for three days all the ships of England and its allies in order to facilitate the Bremen German raider breaking through the English blockade to the German coast. Finally, in July 1940, the Soviet icebreaker made a difficult journey along the Arctic Ocean in order to lead the German raider Komet through the Bering Strait. Once in the Pacific Ocean, this raider successfully sent several ships of England and its allies to the bottom of the sea.

                The German government and Grand Admiral Raeder found an occasion to express gratitude to the command of the Soviet Navy. The People's Commissar of the Navy Kuznetsov promised to respond to gratitude not with empty words, but with deeds.
              2. 0
                April 25 2019 19: 38
                Supplies of raw materials from Romania, Sweden and the USSR were uninterrupted.

                Correctly. And they could stay that way and even grow. If the USSR and Germany became full-fledged allies. But how? The USSR is actually one step away from the sources, but what does Germany have? How could she "guarantee the decency" of the USSR? Okay, you can believe Stalin, he does not want war. But it was only recently that Tukhachevsky was one step away from a "coup victory". And the Germans understand this very well. Time passes, and the window of opportunity is only getting smaller.
                1. +1
                  April 25 2019 19: 41
                  Do you know the history of World War II? What was the main goal of Germany? And how did Hitler substantiate his decision to attack the USSR? What were the negotiations between Molotov and Hitler in the autumn of 1940?
                  1. +2
                    April 25 2019 19: 54
                    Hitler meeting at Berghof July 31, 1940

                    Fuhrer:
                    <...> The hope of England is Russia and America. If hope for Russia falls away, America will also fall away, for the falling away of Russia will unpleasantly increase the importance of Japan in East Asia, Russia - the East Asian sword of England and America against Japan. The wind, unpleasant for England, is blowing again. The Japanese, like the Russians, give their own program, which must be implemented at the beginning of the war.

                    Russia is that factor on which England most of all puts. Something like that happened in London! The British were already completely down1, and now they have risen again. From listening to conversations, it is clear that Russia is unpleasantly struck by the rapid development of events in Western Europe.

                    Russia only needs to tell England that it does not want Germany to be strengthened, and then the British will, like drowning people, hope that in 6-8 months things will turn out completely different.

                    But if Russia is broken, England’s last hope will fade. The lord of Europe and the Balkans will then be Germany.

                    Solution: in the course of this clash with Russia, it must be finished. In the spring of the 41st.

                    The sooner Russia is defeated, the better. The operation makes sense only if we break this state with one blow. Capturing a specific space alone is not enough. Stopping in winter is fraught with danger. Therefore, it is better to wait, but make a firm decision to get rid of Russia. This is also necessary in view of the situation in the Baltic Sea. Two large states in the Baltic are not needed. So, in May 1941, the operation was 5 months. Best yet this year. But it does not work out, since it is necessary to prepare a single operation.

                    Purpose: the destruction of the life force of Russia.

                    Is something said here about Romanian oil or Swedish ore?
                    1. 0
                      April 25 2019 20: 45
                      Bakht, you prove to the man who is considering the UNION of the USSR and the Reich! It is useless to prove such a thing! Did you notice how he writes about Rezun?
                      How clearly he said: “I am not one of those who“ did not read, but I condemn. ”Because he is one of those who say:
                      "READ AND APPROVE!" - we read between the lines, just!
                      1. +2
                        April 25 2019 20: 57
                        I was always struck by the total lack of logic in Rezun and the Rezunists.
                        The thesis - the USSR could leave Germany without raw materials and this was the reason for the war .... The fact that the war against the USSR left Germany without any raw materials somehow did not reach them. Now we pass to the present. Many in the EU shout that Europe is critically dependent on Russian energy supplies and that Russia can blackmail European countries. Does this mean that NATO has a moral right to strike at the Russian Federation?
                        The second thesis is that the USSR allegedly concentrated troops on the border and Hitler launched a preemptive strike. Now, NATO forces are concentrated on the border with the Russian Federation. Does the Russian Federation have the right to deliver a preemptive strike, say against Estonia? There appeared as many as 4 Leclerc.
                        Any thesis of Rezun is so idiotic that I do not perceive his fans as adequate people.
                      2. 0
                        April 26 2019 12: 22
                        complete lack of logic.
                        The thesis - the USSR could leave Germany without raw materials and this was the reason for the war .... The fact that the war against the USSR left Germany without any raw materials somehow did not reach them.

                        And a little higher

                        Supplies of raw materials from Romania, Sweden and the USSR were uninterrupted.

                        The question is how it sounded? Was it worth the preemptive strike. It would be in the event of a preemptive strike that the marines would be in Ploiesti, and the landing in Narvik.
                        PS And why did you enlist me as a resident?
                      3. +2
                        April 26 2019 12: 30
                        I did not write down, I see the argument.
                        What is the landing in Narvik? Have you seen the map? The Northern Fleet, as many as several "sevens", is conducting a landing operation in Narvik. I precipitated ...
                        The Marine Corps in Ploiesti? .... I laughed so much .... What outfit did you find for this? ... Did you hear anything about the June 25, 1941 raid operation?
                        And you ask why I wrote you down as a resident? Yes, you recorded yourself.
                      4. 0
                        April 26 2019 13: 11
                        What is the landing in Narvik? Have you seen the map?

                        Air. From Kilpisjärvi to Narvik 153 km., To Tromso - 98.
                        Or do you have other cards?

                        Marines in Ploiesti? .... I laughed so much .... What outfit of forces did you find for this ?.

                        Danube flotilla.
                      5. +2
                        April 26 2019 13: 21
                        Well, look how many troops you need to get to Ploiesti.
                        And about Narvik .... What airborne assault? Do you have airplanes in the Northern Fleet? Is there a supply? Falkenhorst Corps Have you already won?
                        By God, there’s no need to say all this. Read about the Soviet landing operations of the Great Patriotic War. To a much shallower depth. And how they ended. There were two major landing operations. None have reached their goals.
                        And now the main question. Suppose the Soviet and the troops took Ploiesti and Narvik. What goals have been achieved? What is the meaning of these operations?
                        In Narvik, this is generally going nowhere. And about Ploiesti .... Theoretically, we deprive the Germans of fuel. The Germans have enough of this fuel for almost six months. We open the book "Green Brahma" and increase the size of the disaster by an order or two.
                        The Red Army forces at the border did not allow any offensive operation. Read the Field Charter of the Red Army
                      6. 0
                        April 26 2019 14: 06
                        laughing Nevertheless, are you trying to prove something to him ???
                      7. +1
                        April 26 2019 14: 30
                        I am just writing for those who want to learn something extra.
                        I'm not a know-it-all. Maybe I’ll learn something new myself ...
                      8. 0
                        April 26 2019 12: 00
                        If the UNION of the USSR and the Reich did not exist, then what was it?
                      9. +1
                        April 26 2019 12: 36
                        There was a union of the USSR and the Third Reich. Did someone hide it?
                        There was a trade agreement, about which Schnurre said "supplies from the USSR were critical to us." This was especially true for grain and oil. And .... they don't remember about .... transit supplies from the Far East. Molybdenum, rare earth elements, rubber. The USSR drove trains even to the detriment of its own transportation. Schnurre lamented that oil supplies were small and wanted to increase it to 1 million tons per year.
                        And all this Hitler rode his idiotic attack. After June 22, the blockade of Germany became complete. And defeat is guaranteed.
                      10. +1
                        April 26 2019 12: 43
                        Were friends
                      11. 0
                        April 26 2019 12: 54
                        What's wrong? When did Hitler become a "handshake"? Maybe in '38, when Daladier and Chamberlain were working with him? Or in the 39th when he ate the Czech Republic?
                        This was the legally elected head of Germany. Legitimate, as they would now.
                      12. +2
                        April 26 2019 13: 02
                        What opportunities have been missed .... And all because of the possessed Aloysych ...

                        With Cromwell or Comet
                        Leads a duel on an equal footing
                        Thirty four
                        With sakura on the armor.

                        The union of Germany and the Russian Federation in modern conditions is vital. Since the 17th century, when Germany and Russia were friends, the mouse could not squeak in Europe. 300 years is enough to grow wiser.
                      13. -1
                        April 26 2019 12: 06
                        you prove to the person who is considering the UNION of the USSR and the Reich! It is useless to prove such a thing!

                        And the German training centers in the USSR, the supply of the latest ships and photographs from the joint parade in Brest to the USSR, we will note with indignation as a fact of no significance!
                      14. +2
                        April 26 2019 12: 38
                        Training centers were closed after the Nazis came to power. And .... the funniest .... Soviet pilots and tankers trained in these centers. Not German, but Soviet.
                      15. 0
                        April 26 2019 14: 14
                        The Germans also studied, but in much smaller numbers than ours.
                      16. +1
                        April 26 2019 14: 34
                        Captains and majors of the personnel Kaiser army studied with former peasants?
                        The Germans practiced combat skills and taught Soviet military specialists. Plus left the entire materiel. In addition to military specialists, military equipment maintenance technicians also studied with them.
                      17. 0
                        April 27 2019 15: 58
                        Not Bakhit, there were (mostly) lieutenants ... There is information that Goering flickered there, it seemed like there was love (but I don’t know for sure).
                      18. 0
                        April 27 2019 18: 37
                        Goering at that time was twisting love in Sweden (as it seems to me).
                        Of the famous tankers was General Tom, of the Sperle pilots.
                      19. +1
                        April 26 2019 14: 36
                        Point by point:
                        1. Training centers in Lipetsk, near Kazan and in Shihan trained Russian (more) and German (less) military. Despite the fact that the Germans invested (and not very small at the time) and scientific achievements (along with military equipment developed in Germany). What gave our design bureau, subsequently, KNOWING the achievements of the Germans to LEARN to develop their own technology already. And yes - Bakhit told you that the schools were closed in 1933 (somewhere in September) - when it became clear what the Nazis were in power.
                        2. I already wrote about technology.
                        3. Now about the "parade" - this is exactly the notion of Rezun (and before that - Goebbels) - that's why they tell you that you are a "rezunist."
                        Are these all your "facts"? Well then, congratulations - you have a Rezun medal! ... you haven't earned the order yet.
                        Threat. ... you still say that in the tank of Kazan studied SAM Guderian! Here we have a laugh !!!
                      20. +2
                        April 27 2019 13: 59
                        About the parade in Brest, too lazy to look for the source. His analysis was conducted hourly on available photographic materials. Brief summary: the passage time of the Germans and Russian columns in front of the podium differs by more than five hours. By agreement, the Germans left Brest earlier than the Russians, to prevent misunderstandings. And the command staff in the photo did not match the level of the parade.
  11. +2
    April 25 2019 20: 26
    I have not read anything stupid for a long time.
    The author clearly does not know the rule of historians "History does not know the subjunctive mood". If we know how the course of the war developed, inventing some stupid fantasies on the fly looks completely ridiculous.

    Luckily for all of us ... the war ended the way it ended.

    - I'm under the table!

    Fortunately for all of us ... in the first two years of the war, the Red Army lost millions of personnel.
    Fortunately for all of us ... the Red Army retreated to Stalingrad, and by incredible exertion of forces was able to stop the Germans.
    Fortunately for all of us ... a large part of the European part of the USSR was literally burned to the ground together with the population by German Nazis and their accomplices.
    Fortunately for all of us ... an anti-Hitler coalition was created, and the Soviet people felt its support during a deadly battle with German Nazism.
    Fortunately for all of us ... The Soviet Union had to liberate the countries of Eastern and Southern Europe, while losing millions more of its soldiers.
    Fortunately for all of us ... if we recall the words of Generalissimo Suvorov, the war is not over for us yet, since in the Novgorod swamps and other places lie the remains of our hundreds of thousands of "missing" soldiers, the exact number and names of which we have never find out: ((
  12. -2
    April 26 2019 07: 56
    Quote: Kim Rum Eun
    I have not read anything stupid for a long time.
    The author clearly does not know the rule of historians "History does not know the subjunctive mood". If we know how the course of the war developed, inventing some stupid fantasies on the fly looks completely ridiculous.

    Luckily for all of us ... the war ended the way it ended.

    - I'm under the table!

    You just re-read the article and do not write nonsense yourself. hi
    1. 0
      April 26 2019 12: 10
      It’s strictly contraindicated to me to personally read heavily into your nonsense. At first I look who wrote the opus, and if I see M.'s authorship, then it is enough to find ASHYPKI in the spelling and inform the editor about them.
    2. -1
      April 27 2019 15: 54
      Sergey, but you don’t react - these are provocateurs.
  13. +1
    April 26 2019 10: 58
    It is even more terrible than those boilers that the Nazis arranged in our territory. But the fact that it is necessary to fight on foreign territory is an absolutely sensible idea. It was the victorious war on the enemy's territory that the Soviet leadership promised the people, but as always they blundered, hence the catastrophic losses. But Putin in Syria has proved that it is much more effective to beat the enemy on his territory than to wait for the enemy to "suddenly" attack.
    1. +1
      April 26 2019 15: 14
      It was the victorious war on the territory of the enemy that promised the people, the leadership of the USSR, but as always blundered, hence the catastrophic losses.

      I consider the catastrophe of the first period of the war related to the loss of control and communication. I read German memoirs: Chief Executive Officer has a map of the area. At which link could we have a card? The commander of a company, a battalion?
      1. +1
        April 27 2019 14: 09
        On the cards, yes. I have German maps, but in Russian (Vitebsk district). The Germans weren’t doing well with cards either. Maybe the corporal also had it. Not everyone. And a lot of coordinate lies. I was very surprised on the maps of the 50s, the movements of villages and rivers, a couple of five kilometers. So this is not the main thing.
        1. 0
          April 27 2019 15: 55
          The corporal who led the TR.
        2. 0
          April 29 2019 13: 52
          I have a map of the Young Thud area. Rzhevskaya land, and there he mined. Everything is in German, excellent printing and the very foundation. There is a map of the Czech Republic, so there all mills are marked and wells with the number of buckets of water per day ...
          1. 0
            April 29 2019 18: 46
            In Europe, it may be accurate, but in the seventies he took a tourist’s card for copying (with a signature stamp) for 56 years - that’s where there were wonders with the movement of rivers and villages. Feet felt the difference.
  14. -1
    April 27 2019 16: 12
    Quote: Kim Rum Eun
    It’s strictly contraindicated to me to personally read heavily into your nonsense. At first I look who wrote the opus, and if I see M.'s authorship, then it is enough to find ASHYPKI in the spelling and inform the editor about them.

    You, hamlo, don't stay too long here, I guess smile
    1. The comment was deleted.