“Mosquitoes” or “dreadnoughts”: in which direction warships can evolve

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The losses that the Black Sea Fleet suffered during two years of a special military operation in Ukraine, carried out mainly on land, force us to ask the question, what types of ships are most relevant given the challenges of our time?

Conclusions from offensive losses, as is customary among us, are extremely ambiguous. There are increasingly loud calls that the Russian Navy, they say, does not need large surface ships, which are supposedly just “large floating targets,” and instead of them, Russia only needs “mosquitoes.” In reality, everything is much more complicated.



The Old New Thing


First, I would like to make a small digression, summarizing certain trends that have formed over the two years of war.

At first, it suddenly became clear that cannon artillery is still the “god of war.” Before the start of the SVO, many had the illusion that in order to defeat it would be enough to properly bombard the enemy with missiles. However, over two years, more than one thousand missiles and attack UAVs were fired at targets on Ukrainian territory, but this did not lead to its surrender. Only infantry supported by artillery fire can really move forward and occupy territory.

Secondly, there is a convergence of tactical and technical characteristics of ammunition for various types of weapons and their hybridization. To increase their flight range, artillery shells now have to be active-reactive, controlled and highly accurate. Air bombs are also equipped with correction modules and wings for gliding away from the release point, and in the future, primitive engines to further increase their combat radius. American engineers were the first to think of launching glide bombs not from airplanes, but from the ground from HIMARS MLRS launchers, and they can fly to their target with high accuracy up to 150 km. In Russia, on the basis of a rocket for the Grad or Tornado-G MLRS, they made a gliding bomb for attack drones.

In general, everything comes closer together, mixes and hybridizes. Something unpleasant for us: Norway can supply the Ukrainian Armed Forces with the promising ultra-long-range artillery projectile Solid Fuel Ramjet of 155 mm caliber for testing. Depending on the length of the gun barrel (L39/L52), the range of this projectile is 120-150 km.

Thirdly, the situation that has developed in the Black Sea with attacks by Ukrainian anti-ship missiles and sea drones raises unpleasant questions not only for the command of the fleet, but also for the projects for which our warships were built. Undoubtedly, more powerful short-range self-defense means are needed, but if Russian ships had an armored belt, the consequences of BEC attacks on their sides would not be so dire, and the survival rate after being hit by an enemy anti-ship missile would be higher.

About it пишет, for example, the profile telegram channel “Russian Engineer”:

Well, seriously, I agree that taking into account the distribution of cost in the finished product, saving on body weight does not turn out to be very rational. Roughly speaking, electronics and guided missile weapons are the overwhelming majority of the cost of a warship, so if you add 400-600 tons of armor to the armor belt along the waterline for a frigate or destroyer, this will not make the ship much more expensive. Even taking into account the price of this armor itself and the corresponding addition of the cost of interconnected elements. But a 100-mm (for example) armor belt almost completely eliminates the risk of serious damage to the ship from the BEC and at the same time from land mines from drones or anti-ship missiles if they fly into the waterline area.

Thus, history took a strange spiral, and we returned in many ways to the realities of the First World War, including at sea. So what kind of ships are needed and is it worth waiting for the return of the “dreadnoughts”?

Dreadnought 2


You should be aware that there is a peacetime navy, and there is a wartime one. There are also specific conditions for fleets forced to fight in closed and ocean waters. In particular, leaving modern corvettes, patrol ships and small missile ships in the Baltic, which has almost turned into an “inland sea of ​​NATO,” would be a rather short-sighted decision.

In this regard, calls to withdraw ships of the 1st and 2nd ranks from closed waters and send them to strengthen the Northern and Pacific fleets seem quite reasonable. In the Black and Baltic Seas, in the current conditions, it seems more rational to rely on “mosquitoes” - small high-speed vessels carrying missiles and artillery weapons, perhaps even remotely controlled. For example, the Project 12150 Mongoose patrol boat, which belongs to the 4th rank, would be well suited to fight Ukrainian BECs.

The prospects for ocean-going fleets seem different. The need to operate in distant sea and ocean zones, to protect trade routes and communications has not yet been canceled, and “mosquitoes”, by definition, cannot cope with such tasks. The displacement of a ship of the 1st or 2nd rank should objectively be large enough to accommodate strike weapons, air defense and anti-aircraft defense systems in the hull, without which it is a defenseless target. Probably, the experience of collisions with surface kamikaze drones, and in the future also with underwater ones, will push for the development of a new generation of ships that are structurally more seriously protected.

In this regard, the question arises - will this evolution lead to the return of its crown in the form of an armored dreadnought battleship?

In reality, this cannot be ruled out. With this question we wondered a few years ago, purely theoretically, considering the American experience in operating Iowa-class battleships, which the Pentagon carefully preserved. They all underwent deep modernization and received modern weapons: eight launchers of BGM-109 Tomahawk cruise missiles (four missiles per installation), four four-missile launchers AGM-84 Harpoon, four ZAK Mk.15 "Vulcan-Phalanx", a platform for servicing helicopters and UAV. One of these battleships called the Missouri (pictured) is well known to us all from Hollywood blockbusters.

The concept of using the Iowas involves the creation of surface combat groups SAG (Surface Action Group) around a battleship that can iron the enemy’s coast with 406-mm main-caliber shells. This group also includes a Ticonderoga-class cruiser and three Arleigh Burke-class destroyers. Old battleships are leaders, keeping up with modern ships thanks to their impressive speed of 32,5 knots. At the same time, the same “Missouri” with its powerful armored belt can survive a dozen hits from anti-ship missiles, and it won’t even notice the BEC.

The main feature of obsolete battleships is that they are ideal carriers for the promising ultra-long-range Strategic Long Range Cannon (SLRC), which, as stated, will be able to hit targets at a distance of up to 1000 nautical miles (1,8 thousand kilometers) actively. rockets. The actual appearance of such ammunition in the US Navy can change a lot. Fortunately, for now this Pentagon project remains no visible progress, but can we be sure that understanding the experience of the Northern Military District in Ukraine will not breathe new life into it?
19 comments
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  1. +4
    16 February 2024 11: 52
    What types of ships are most relevant given the challenges of our time?

    On wheels. Possible on tracks.
    Russia has never ruled, does not rule and will not rule the seas.
    It is possible to protect land and coastal zones more cheaply from land.
    Large air and sea landings became an excellent way to destroy your own paratroopers.
    It seems that the time of large ships and squadrons has passed.
    Today, the sword of destruction has surpassed the shield of defense of ships.
    Submarines, as part of the nuclear triad, are different.
    1. +1
      16 February 2024 16: 59
      Quote: prior
      It seems that the time of large ships and squadrons has passed.
      Today, the sword of destruction has surpassed the shield of defense of ships.

      Almost like about tanks. It looks like the fleet also needs its own “barbecues”. And underwater drones - minesweepers, patrol drones - security guards, with "Lancets" under their wings, etc. And also ships that carry drones, with data processing functions and the destruction of identified opponents.
    2. 0
      19 February 2024 16: 17
      Quote: prior
      It is possible to protect land and coastal zones more cheaply from land.

      For Russia, this has always been the case (and in the war of 1941-45), and not only for protection, but also during liberation.
      But what’s stopping you is not making HUGE ships, but something like “floating tanks and infantry fighting vehicles” (but not a copy of them, of course).
  2. +2
    16 February 2024 12: 20
    In skillful hands, the dreadnought will be useful and mosquitoes will come in handy, but in inept hands....
  3. +2
    16 February 2024 12: 53
    Neither one nor the other is suitable; they sink both the Moskva and the RTOs with first-generation fireships. And what will happen next when the second, third generation BEC and BEVs, and mainly underwater ones, arrive. An example is "Poseidon" with unlimited possibilities in time, depths and distances. Smaller and more advanced with AI serial ones, so the ships will remain hopeless in the boom. stand in the barrier. Satellite reconnaissance, aerial reconnaissance in anticipation of the ships leaving and sending a signal to swarms of U-submarine submarines, this is the future of the surface fleet. Here we are moving closer to large ekranoplanes, and the question is whether it would be better to immediately enroll the Navy in aviation. Conclusion: MBTs are leaving, and so is the large surface fleet with its crews, leaving for the annals of history, following the path of dreadnoughts and other chariots. In weapons systems, humans are replaced by remote control, and then full robotization with AI...
  4. +1
    16 February 2024 12: 57
    artillery is not the god of war, it is the god of budget war. numbers are important here. Is a million shells a lot? Yes. and more specifically? One 152mm shell contains about 9kg of TNT. a million shells is 9 kilotons. How quickly can these shells be used? the consumption of 10000 shells per day on a 1000 km front line is considered a good indicator. This is a million for 3 months or 3 kt per month or 0.1 kt per day. And now the comparison. On Dresden in 1945, 2.6 kt fell in one day against artillery with its 0.1 kt. the difference is several orders of magnitude. Is it possible to maintain this for several months? These are questions for the military industry, but even the fact that in 3 days aviation is capable of delivering as much explosives as art in a month is impressive.
    Well, all the numbers change radically if we pronounce the letters TNW. there are no longer kilotons per day, but kilotons per second
  5. +4
    16 February 2024 13: 21
    A lawyer is not suitable for the role of Commander-in-Chief. Definitely. It’s impossible to calculate the course of the SVO for 1-2 steps - to be without a “king in your head”! At all ..
  6. +2
    16 February 2024 13: 42
    Koptsov in Military Review ten years ago justified the transition from tin cans, which can be drowned by a burst from a heavy machine gun, to normal warships. Moreover, the cost of structural materials in ship hulls is 5-10% of the total cost of a warship. But our admirals are hereditary admirals, they don’t care about everything except the width of the bed in the captain’s and admiral’s cabins. Unfortunately, Serdyukov was not allowed to disperse the naval kublo - the president was afraid of a coup by the fat-bellied stripers.
  7. 0
    16 February 2024 22: 08
    it's written as always.
    They can evolve.
    may not evolve. They abandoned anti-torpedo armor, although there are a lot of torpedoes now.

    this is not known to science.

    IMHO - the main thing is missed. A ship is a warehouse on the water for Ammunition, weapons, electronics and people.
    And a harrowed warehouse is long and expensive to build. They don't build on land?
    In the 19-20th century, one ship was built over the years, and was often worn out even before launching.
    And you yourself know how long and efficiently it takes us to build ships.
    1. 0
      16 February 2024 22: 31
      Quote: Sergey Latyshev
      And a harrowed warehouse is long and expensive to build.

      Why? The body is the simplest thing. Here are the cable routes and pipelines, yes.

      Quote: Sergey Latyshev
      In the 19-20th century, one ship was built over the years, and was often worn out even before launching.

      They’ve been building this way for years now. And then there was a very rapid development of technology, because it was much simpler than now.
  8. +1
    16 February 2024 22: 32
    for the ocean, small frigates and corvettes are enough, and on closed seas, ships of the third and even fourth rank, and of course, coastal assets, aviation and submarines, this is the future of the fleet
  9. -1
    17 February 2024 12: 09
    There was the Soviet Union, and under it, any class of its warships was taken into account. And now they wipe their feet on the St. Andrew’s flag, regardless of the class of the ship. This is clearly not a matter of the fleet.
  10. +1
    17 February 2024 14: 38
    It also seems to me that the war on the Black Sea largely showed the weakness of the mosquito concept. All these missile boats, Buyans and Karakurts are simply not physically large enough to accommodate adequate defensive systems to detect and destroy drones. Progress in the miniaturization of some technological nodes that resulted in drones requires an answer that can only be implemented in the form of a massive system. Powerful radar, sonar, more advanced air defense systems with more ammunition, etc. In other words, it will be quite possible for a new generation ship of sufficient displacement, equipped with full-fledged defense systems and... even... possibly having armor, to operate in the drone coverage area. In turn, attack systems will also have only one possible path to evolution - to increase their mass and become more complex, which in turn takes away their advantages of cheapness and stealth, essentially turning them into anti-ship missiles/torpedoes (the circle is closed).
    Plus, I would like to note that this whole, it must be said, shameful situation for the Black Sea Fleet speaks more against the leadership than against large ships. The Black Sea Fleet was prepared for the 1980 war, if it was prepared for any war at all.
    1. +1
      17 February 2024 20: 56
      Why did the largest cruiser in the Black Sea Fleet die? So, were there radars and air defense and missile defense?
  11. +1
    18 February 2024 00: 01
    There were no radars capable of detecting low-flying targets. The target designation for the missiles was probably given by NATO sources. And of course, it certainly wasn’t without some bungling. Actually, we were talking about the lessons of the Northern Military District, and the sinking of the Moscow refers to the lessons of the Falklands War. I think the conditional HMS "Daring" with airborne radar patrol would have repelled the attack without any problems. And if we imagine a hypothetical ship with even more advanced characteristics, armored, with a nuclear power plant, electronic warfare systems and new types of weapons... I think the costs of destroying such a ship will be at least comparable to its cost, and for most countries and in most possible scenarios this ship would be simply invulnerable. If we return again to Karakurt/Buyan? RK, then at a price of 7 billion rubles (and if we convert it into dollars, we must calculate it according to PPP, and this is about 250 million), their combat stability in a theater of war like the Black Sea is exactly zero. Their equipping of the Kyrgyz Republic is a decision dictated by the INF Treaty and has no practical military significance.
    1. +2
      18 February 2024 09: 10
      and you are writing about a hypothetical non-existent warship, it’s empty, it doesn’t exist, and never existed in history, all ideas to create a Wundkerwaffe battleship ended in its disgrace and quick death, in reality the cycle of designing and building a large ship is decades, so ALL large ships have become obsolete for a LONG TIME already before launching, that’s why Moscow was outdated, it was more than 30 years old, that is, this is a project 50 years ago, there’s also the question of price, large ships are expensive, therefore small-scale and serve for a long time for reasons of hoarding, they are long outdated, they are difficult to modernize because they are piecemeal, but a modernization project is needed and single pieces of equipment, small ships are built faster and are also modernized in series, and you can even sell them on the market...small ships sail on inland waterways, which is convenient for the Russian Federation, so you need to concentrate all the frigates and corvettes and the Varangian and the destroyer on oceans, (taking a 10-year timeout to lay down large ones), where it is necessary to have more displacement for reasons of seaworthiness, and the seas to be equipped only with ships of the third and fourth rank, and in general, the main thing in the fleet is coastal assets, submarines and aviation. therefore, abandoning large ships, all forces are on submarines, be200 plos, minesweepers and create karakurt plo-air defense, chamois, dugong, and no longer lay down the MRK, so there are already three dozen of them
  12. +2
    18 February 2024 23: 40
    In a real big war there will be no satellites, not a single one, not a single one at all. No navigation, no internet. What is happening now in the Black Sea and on land is a disgrace to the Russian Armed Forces because of the soft-heartedness of the country’s leaders. All generals and admirals should be driven out with a broom from the Defense Ministry
  13. +1
    29 February 2024 11: 04
    We most likely won’t have to fight the Zulus and Papuans. Dreadnoughts won't be needed. But you will probably have to deliver a large, generous bunch of tactical missiles closer to their place of application. War will prompt the maneuver.
    By the way, I remembered, what would those helicopter carriers that were squeezed by the squeezed France help us now? Or a stone to the bottom, like the most convenient thick and large Black Sea target?
    1. +1
      1 March 2024 09: 51
      Quote: mik5966
      Would those helicopter carriers that were squeezed by screwed-up France help us now? Or a stone to the bottom, like the most convenient thick and large Black Sea target?

      sinking like a stone, it’s very good that I managed to sink this entire corruption project on the Mistrals, sinking from one rocket in 5 minutes