Infantry mortars on armored vehicles: a whim or a vital necessity?

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They say smart people learn from other people's mistakes, and fools learn from their own. The wise use the experience of both for their own benefit. But what to do with those who do not want to learn?

It has been noted that one of the features of the domestic audience is polarity and categorical judgments, where there is no room for compromise. We either have hysterics in the spirit of “everything is lost” and “where are the shells,” or an arrogant demand for the highest standards, so that everything is in order. If there is a war, then it should be network-centric; if there is an offensive, then only with tank wedges supported by aviation, reconnaissance and attack aircraft, long-range self-propelled guns, and so on. But why doesn’t everything look quite like that in reality?



The author was prompted to write this publication by becoming familiar with, so to speak, the discussion under previous, where some thoughts were expressed on possible ways to improve Russian tanks, taking into account the realities of the Northern Military District. Quite deliberately, absolutely fantastic options, such as the development of wedge-shaped tanks, were left out of the picture, as quite well-known near-military experts seriously talk about. The proposals were made quite specific, but for some reason they caused an inappropriate reaction. Having neither the opportunity nor the desire to chew on each reader’s thoughts separately in the comments, I would like to explain in more detail the most “controversial” points.

First of all, regarding the equipping of tanks with a howubized 152 mm caliber gun, which causes a mixed reaction among the respectable audience, from approval to unmotivated aggression. There is nothing new in this proposal; everything was invented long ago within the framework of the Black Eagle project. The tank was developed on the basis of the T-80U, and it was designed to be able to install a 152 mm gun. Another thing is that the “Black Eagle” series never went into production, but the military-industrial complex seemed to be planning to start producing the T-80 again, so this platform, if the customer wishes, could be finalized and brought to mind. The question is, is such a tank needed on the battlefield?

As a counter-argument, they quite rightly point out, by the way, that one must fight wisely: self-propelled guns perform their tasks, tanks do theirs, aircraft do theirs, etc. But what are we seeing in reality for the second year in a row? For some reason, tanks act as ersatz self-propelled guns, radio communications in the troops at the grassroots level are built on civilian stations made in China, and drones of the same Chinese production or with Chinese components are used for reconnaissance and target designation. At the same time, our enemy, represented by the collective West, is objectively superior technologically, and this is a fact.

In the personal opinion of the author of these lines, the modern version of the “Black Eagle”, which is a transitional link between the main battle tank and the self-propelled gun, can turn out to be a very effective “workhorse” due to the presence of serious armor for protection against fragments in counter-battery combat and a large-caliber gun. At the same time, of course, no one is proposing to abandon the T-72/T-90 as an MBT. But whether this is really necessary at the front, let the professionals in the Russian Ministry of Defense and the military-industrial complex decide.

Let's move on. A proposal to standardly equip Russian tanks with reconnaissance quadcopters and additional weapons in the form of mortars caused a somewhat incomprehensible reaction. Let's look at this in a little more detail. Why would significant losses in armored vehicles be suffered at the first stage of the SVO?

There were several reasons. Firstly, at that time there was an acute shortage of aerial reconnaissance assets. Secondly, despite the presence of tanks, infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers in the Russian troops, there was an acute shortage of trained infantry to cover it. Thirdly, our armored vehicles did not have secure radio communications for coordinating actions with their own infantry, and the enemy could listen to radio communications via analog communications. As a result, the “amusing” Ukrainian Teroborona, armed with modern American Javelin-type ATGMs and anti-tank grenade launchers, was able to ambush and destroy our columns, knocking out machinery along with the crews.

Now both sides are essentially marking time; progress forward, at best, is measured in kilometers. But what will happen if you have to go on a large-scale offensive with deep breakthroughs, and not only in the steppes of Donbass and the Azov region, but also in the North-East of Ukraine, through the forests?

In this case, having a tank commander with a standard reconnaissance quadcopter UAV, or better yet a couple, will, to put it mildly, not be amiss, increasing his awareness of what is happening around him. It may also be useful to have additional armament on the armored vehicle in the form of a mortar.

Here it is worth making a short digression and recalling the IDF’s experience from the 1973 war. Then the real threat to Israeli armored vehicles became light mobile fighter squads armed with RPGs, mounted grenade launchers and recoilless rifles. A year later, in Tel Aviv, it was decided to equip tanks and other armored vehicles with 60-mm infantry mortars, the tasks of which were to quickly fire fragmentation and smoke mines at areas where enemy tank destroyers were seen or could be located. Optionally, the mortar can be used at night for illumination with special lighting mines.

On Merkava-1 tanks, a 60-mm mortar was placed outside the turret, on the right, and the tank commander fired from it, leaning out of the hatch. Subsequent generations of "Chariots" implemented the ability to fire from a protected armored space. Ammunition includes 60 mines - 36 fragmentation, 12 smoke and 12 lighting. The C02 breech-loading mortar (Under Armored Vehicles Turret) has a firing range of up to 4000 m and a rate of fire of up to 6 rounds per minute.

During the first Lebanon War in 1982, mortars were widely used to shell suspicious groves and greenery, and illumination mines significantly increased the effectiveness of night vision devices, which worked on the principle of amplifying starlight. You can see how this looks in practice in the video.


It remains to ask the question whether a standard reconnaissance quadcopter and an additional mortar mounted on a turret would be useful to our tank crews in conditions of trench warfare and a theoretical large-scale offensive to great depths, and to answer it honestly.
14 comments
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  1. +2
    26 October 2023 10: 42
    And where does the author propose to store these same mines? Is it possible to sit on them? As soon as we got rid of the problems with the automatic loader, someone again suggests placing explosives under the commander’s ass. He'll be happy.
  2. +2
    26 October 2023 12: 02
    The most important thing for the Russian Armed Forces today is comprehensive encrypted communication for all participants in the battle. The second is the complete provision of intelligence data to the battlefield. This was foreseen in the plans for the development of the RF Armed Forces, and it remained in the plans; there is clearly a lack of sufficient communications and intelligence with all the consequences (that’s why the SVO is in its second year). The culprits are not held accountable, and corrections are made at a snail's pace. Regarding mortars on MBTs, this sounds like nonsense, because the tank has a different purpose and a different weapon. Regarding the Israeli experience, the enemy there is different - semi-partisan detachments with light weapons without armored vehicles. Mortars are needed, but only for a different purpose. On infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers, 82 and 120 mm mortars will probably take root. And most importantly, it is necessary to reduce the number of motorized rifles and increase the heavy weapons of line units from a platoon and above: AGS, mortars, artillery 100 mm and higher, that is, motorized rifles enter to control the “cleared” territory, and a machine gun, only personal weapons, the main impact is with heavier weapons, Otherwise, the battle in the Northern Military District will look like WWI level. Regarding quadcopters for MBT, when there is no battlefield information from other sources, your own reconnaissance means are of course necessary..
  3. 0
    26 October 2023 12: 30
    Nowadays they put anti-drone visors on tanks - how are we going to shoot from a mortar?
  4. 0
    26 October 2023 12: 34
    Quote: faiver
    Nowadays they put anti-drone visors on tanks - how are we going to shoot from a mortar?

    Visors are a temporary solution. The future belongs to our own air defense in the form of an anti-aircraft machine gun on a turret, integrated into the KAZ. Then you won’t need a grill.
    1. 0
      26 October 2023 12: 56
      We have nothing more permanent than temporary...
  5. +1
    26 October 2023 13: 13
    There are self-propelled guns, they will make a SMU (self-propelled mortar launcher). Preferably tracked, not high, armored, automatic.
  6. 0
    26 October 2023 13: 37
    I looked into the Bible (in the sense of Wikipedia). There, the purpose of the Merkava is interpreted as a tank and heavy infantry fighting vehicle. And by and large, a squad of infantrymen can carry a 60-mm mortar on it, a drone in a suitcase, a MANPADS, and a Javelin. But it weighs 70 tons (this is more than the latest Abrams model) and the specific ground pressure is unacceptably high for other theaters. Well, let's stock up on popfood! Ukraine supplied Hamas with Javelins...
  7. DO
    +1
    26 October 2023 19: 25
    Does the tank need
    - quadcopter,
    - built-in mortar?
    In the comments, the thesis was repeatedly put forward that if you establish a network-centric connection, then the tank does not need a quad. Therefore, we will separate the cutlets from the flies.
    It is clear that without full-fledged network-centric communications in the group the Russian Federation must be connected, it is unlikely that it will be possible to defeat the Armed Forces of Ukraine, provided by the West with the most modern and effective network-centric communications. It is also clear that this system should be based primarily on ground-based means, radio and cable (for two reasons - firstly, in the foreseeable time in the Northeast Military District it is impossible to create a satellite constellation comparable to the Western one, even theoretically; secondly, with the escalation of the conflict , the satellite constellation is very vulnerable to being disabled by an enemy - a space power).
    However, even if we assume that the required Russian network-centric communication system has been created on the territory of the Northern Military District, we must not forget that the enemy has a sufficient number of Western direction finders and jammers. A well-known living example is the almost suicidal actions of the crew of the Alyosha tank, whose radio communication channel was jammed by the enemy. Even if the Russian Armed Forces are equipped with means of detecting and destroying jammers, it will still take time to restore jammed or damaged Russian communications.
    Therefore, it seems that Russian tanks operating near the LBS MUST be equipped with a pair of surveillance quadcopters (one on recharge). To prevent the tank from being easily direction-finded via the quad control channel, it is highly desirable that the antenna on the tank be directional. Perhaps, in the event that enemies jam the quad’s radio channel, a third, backup, quadcopter connected to the tank with a cable is desirable. Or this cable must be able to connect to the first two quads.
    --
    Regarding the built-in mortar, judging by the comments, technical aspects and common sense, the decision on this complex requirement for a tank should be made by experienced participants in the SVO, together with tank building experts.
    And if you do place a mortar somewhere on the back of the tank, then you can use it in conjunction with a surveillance quadcopter - perhaps equipping this pair with laser guidance.
    1. DO
      0
      26 October 2023 20: 38
      PS With a quick and minimal modification of the tank, it is natural to place the mortar and ammunition for it in the form of a suspension on the back of the tank (similar to how bicycles are carried on special brackets for jeeps :)), with the need for someone to get out of the tank to shoot.
      When fundamentally modifying a tank, it is of course advisable to attach a mortar next to the gun in the form of a second barrel, with loading from the inside and aiming by the gunner.
    2. DO
      +1
      27 October 2023 12: 54
      PS-2
      Factors that unmask a tank when using a surveillance quadcopter:
      - when using a radio channel - radiation from antennas on the tank and on the quad, which can be direction-finded by the enemy;
      - when using a power cable connecting the quadcopter to the tank, such a thick cable is very noticeable.
      Offer. To connect the quadcopter with the tank, use one core of an inconspicuous optical fiber in a kelp sheath, similar to a thin fishing line (there are standard small-sized modules on the market for separating transmission directions by optical wavelengths). The standard construction length of such fiber on a reel is 2 km, which would allow the quadric to fly away from the tank so as not to give away the location of the tank to the enemy. Do not use the quad's power supply wires from the tank.
  8. 0
    26 October 2023 20: 22
    If designed properly, the mortar system would be a added amount of lethality to the tank, however carrying the mortar rounds at all times would be unnecessary. A special holder for them could be designed so that they have them when the tank is going into an environment that may require the ability to attack from above. As for the 152mm main gun or even 160mm mortar as some T-55's have, yes, as long as their targeting system is accurate enough to be used as mobile artillery while not detracting from is ability to attack and defend as a tank.
  9. 0
    27 October 2023 15: 49
    Infantry mortars on armored vehicles: a whim or a vital necessity?

    Without fish, even cancer is a fish. Studying the liberation of blacks from whites in the history of the United States, one can see such technical anachronisms that one is amazed.
  10. 0
    13 November 2023 15: 57
    I missed the article) The author is confused, why such a reaction? The author has already been asked 100 times to STOP writing UNSCIENTIFIC FICTION and to consult with knowledgeable people before writing anything. Or at least take a picture of a CURRENT tank and think about where to put the mortar. And how will he shoot through the VISOR?))) Merkava? And the author of the campaign has never seen either a T-72/90/80 or a Merkava live. I advise you to go to the museum and look at the SIZES of the turrets of our tanks, both outside and inside. And then maybe, but this is not certain, the author will understand the whole nonsense of the mortar on our tanks installed in the same way as on the Merkava. Merkava is a SHED with a huge tower. And where to store the BC?))) Or can you tell me a specific place?
    Again, everything is piled up as usual: communications, reconnaissance, control, weapons))) but nothing concrete is said. The author’s resentment towards his proposals is sharpened: the mortar and the mythical “howubized gun” - the author never bothered to decipher the meaning of this term. Because apparently he doesn’t understand what it is. 152mm is probably his only knowledge about the “howitzed gun”.))) We found nothing more about this gun in these 2 works. 152mm and firing from closed positions)))
    About losses.... "author" well, don't disgrace yourself, but for the umpteenth time. When our columns were being hammered by poisoned woodpeckers without reconnaissance or air cover. EVERYTHING was hammered there, and first of all ARTILLERY. Not Javelins. And the EMNIP footage of the February offensive and the defeat of our armored group is a classic example of a raid on a minefield and, again, covering it with artillery. The vast majority of problems are solved by organizing and resolving issues in related areas, for which neither mortars nor the mythical 152mm gun are needed.
    PS: Really, find yourself a smart technology consultant or go to museums. Because I’m an artist, I see that it doesn’t always work.
  11. 0
    17 November 2023 21: 18
    I believe that a reconnaissance quadcopter would be useful to our tank crews.
    And instead of an AGS mortar. Mounted on the roof of the tank turret, in front of or behind the gunner's hatch. With remote control from inside.