The dashing “eighties”: will the Russian military-industrial complex be overstrained by the production of “new old” tanks

27

Small in volume news about the upcoming restart of production of T-80 tanks literally blew up the Internet and, perhaps, became even more discussed than the entire Army-2023 forum. This is not difficult to understand: if earlier the debate about how three different “main” tanks led to the collapse of the Soviet “defense” industry was of a purely academic nature, now we seem to be seeing the return of the same trends in reality - is there a risk that and this time it won't end well?

Spears are seriously broken on this issue, arguments are given both for and against the “eighties”. It seems that the biggest outrage in his Telegram channel came from the rather well-known “tanker” blogger Fedorov, who declared nothing less than the “conscious sabotage” of those who pushed the T-80 into a new life: they say, the unification of armored weapons will arise such that it is Russian economy There's no way she'll get through it.



Although hopes of eventually arriving at a single model of the main tank can indeed be abandoned, the arguments in favor of restarting the T-80 assembly lines are currently much stronger than the arguments of the “unifiers”. However, the latter themselves were too hasty to fall into prostration.

Born - useful


Actually, there is only one argument in favor of restarting the tank conveyor at Omsktransmash, but what a one! The country is waging a large-scale war, which could hypothetically become even larger, so it needs a lot of competitive military equipment. Various modifications of the T-80 fully fall under this definition: one can argue how much better (or worse) the “eighty” is in percentage than the T-72 or T-90, but overall the car is quite on par. In addition, the changed nature of combat operations, in which tanks mainly operate from closed positions or participate in short forays over short distances, has greatly mitigated the main practical drawback of the “eighties” - the gluttony of the engine.

It is also important that Omsk can actually restore production of the T-80 almost from scratch in a relatively short time, within a few years. The relevant competencies at the plant have not been lost thanks to “training on cats” in the form of bringing old tanks to the T-80BVM level, which began in 2019. The production capacity for most components and assemblies has been preserved, including elements of the chassis, transmissions and gas turbine engines GTE -1250.

But wouldn’t it be better to try to deploy additional production of standard T-90Ms at the same facilities? No, it’s not better - simply put, this cannot be done without breaking half of the lines and then replacing them with new ones. By the way, at one time, namely in the 1970s, Omsktransmash was already broken down and rebuilt, and just for the sake of launching the chassis for the “eighties” into series. Then the enterprise partially said goodbye to the transport engineering industry that was included in the name, since the established production of tractors and engineering equipment was torn from the foundation and taken to the Urals.

Naturally, all this was very difficult and fantastically expensive, but in peacetime the Soviet Union could afford such castlings. Against the backdrop of hostilities, the Russian VPR quite logically decided that it was not worth repairing (or rather, breaking) what was in working order. Of course, the Ministry of Defense would not refuse to completely unify the tank fleet, but the hypothetical price of this unification is too high (which is funny in its own way). In particular, if the plant and related enterprises were closely involved in the development of the T-90M, then there would simply be no free hands and minds left to work with the huge reserve of the T-80, which you have yet to find: after all, it is not the production of drones, which has much more overlap with the civil microelectronics and polymer industries. The financial aspect (the objectively high cost of the T-80 both in production and in operation) obviously fades into the background in wartime.

However, there is no need to talk about complete deunification. The fact is that the components and assemblies of the T-80 are quite widely used on many other combat vehicles, for example on the Msta-S and Malka self-propelled guns, self-propelled chassis of the Buk and Tor anti-aircraft systems and others. That is, the unification is obvious, just not with tanks, but with other types of equipment - but what difference does it make if these very common parts still need to be produced regardless of whether the “eighty” is on the assembly line or not?

80 is not equal to 80


Currently, the most popular modification of the tank in the army remains the T-80BV, born in the USSR, while the most advanced is the T-80BVM, largely unified with the T-90M, especially in terms of optical-electronic components. The stock of tanks at the storage bases is estimated at as many as 3 thousand units, most of which are T-80B, but the technical condition of this armada, of course, leaves much to be desired.

Obviously, the current priority is to bring as many tanks as possible to the BVM level, since this is a relatively simple and fast process. The problem is that more or less fresh machines are required as a basis, for which a simple overhaul is sufficient before modernization. Apparently, their reserves for armored vehicles are already close to exhaustion, especially since some of the T-80BVs raised from the reserve are sent into battle in their original form or with minimal modifications such as simplified thermal imagers and anti-drone visors.

This sparked talk about restarting tank production from scratch, which would be the remaining hulls from the completely sour “eighties”, from which all the rusty filling would be pulled out. At the same time, a not unfounded theory is being put forward that the T-80 of the conditional “new model” will differ significantly from the T-80BVM.

The fact is that the most modern modification of the tank is not optimal - in particular, the fighting compartment is filled to the last limit with various equipment, so there is simply no free space for anything else (say, the control panel of an anti-drone jammer). This is partly due to the characteristic design of the automatic loader, inherited from the T-64, with shells standing vertically on a conveyor belt.

Therefore, there is an opinion that the new “eighties” will continue to move towards the T-90M and will receive a turret that is as similar in design as possible with a “flat” Ural-type AZ, since a similar option for modernizing the old chassis with the installation of a unified fighting compartment has already been worked out within the framework of the Burlak R&D project. But what you clearly shouldn’t expect is various sophisticated experiments and attempts to build a kind of “ersatz Armata” based on the T-80.

Even if we leave out such a trifle as expediency, the development of tanks is a complex matter and full of thorns. For example, combat tests of the real “Armata” revealed a number of certain shortcomings, to eliminate which the vehicles had to be taken out of the SVO zone and sent to the factory. But the T-14 is accompanied by such a giant as UVZ, whose potential Omsktransmash cannot compare with today. The main thing is that all kinds of design work and testing require a fair amount of time, and the hypothetical T-80 of the new model is, so to speak, a “partial mobilization” tank, the first combat task of which is to appear in the army in commercial quantities quickly.

In any case, the deployment of production will take from a couple to several years, and by the time the first production vehicles go into combat units, fascist Ukraine will already be over, so the further career of the “eighties” will depend on the new geopolitical situation. If everything goes smoothly in the western direction, then the tanks will most likely serve close to “home”, in Siberia and the Far East, and will also be used to replenish reserves. If, after the last Ukrainian, a war begins until the last Balt, the last Pole, and further down the list, then the T-80 will still have the chance to take part in the “race to the English Channel.”
27 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. -2
    14 September 2023 08: 48
    I think that they won’t even be able to establish production of the T-34. Why? It’s simple: 1- no capacity, 2- no trained personnel, both workers and engineers, for the required production process, 3- lost technology, equipment, etc.
    1. +1
      14 September 2023 10: 00
      I’ll add that the Popovskoye Design Bureau on Kir was practically repurposed and almost died. factory, cat. developed the T-80.
    2. +6
      14 September 2023 13: 07
      The Tu 160m was restored, why can’t they handle the T80?
      The drawings were clearly not burned.
      And there are enough people who can read drawings and work on them.
  2. -6
    14 September 2023 08: 49
    restore production of the T-80 almost from scratch in a relatively short time, within a few years.

    Maybe it's time to put the T-62 into production? Where are the vaunted Armatas?
    1. -2
      14 September 2023 10: 02
      The armata are where they belong - in the trash heap. This poor design was doomed from the moment development began. That's 12 years of wasting money.
  3. +1
    14 September 2023 08: 50
    Come on. They will also participate in Ukraine. Tolstoy (vice-speaker) said that the Northern Military District has another 5 years.
  4. +6
    14 September 2023 10: 10
    In the USSR, there were 3 types of vehicles in service: T-80 - a Central Committee tank (N. S. Popov was a member of the Central Committee), T-72 - an MO tank (easy to use) and a T-64 tank - a Ministry of Defense Industry tank (good in production) . This was a hassle for those involved in maintenance. They never decided, but in the Russian Federation they also came up with Armata. So it goes.
  5. +12
    14 September 2023 11: 10
    I belittle you for what you think. I will say this as a person involved in production. THE MAIN THING is specialists: engineers, mechanics, welders. There will be them, there will be a tank.
    1. +1
      14 September 2023 11: 47
      The first thing you need to understand is needs and opportunities. Today we URGENTLY need many fairly advanced tanks. It is not possible to produce new ones (T-14). There is no point in starting additional production of old models when there is enough in storage. Conclusion: remove from storage and upgrade to an acceptable level, which is what is happening. And which ones to modernize, that’s all - T-80, T-72, whichever ones can be sufficiently modernized, because there are never too many tanks. In the future (after the SVO), it is already possible to develop and build new generations of tanks, and according to weapon development trends, mainly without crew tanks. The meaning of MBT is lost with changes in the tactics of using tanks, which means that different purposes with different performance characteristics and weapons are needed. With today's need to increase armor, many types of applications can be built on the basis of MBT. (From BTR, Terminator, Solntsepek, etc.).
  6. -2
    14 September 2023 12: 58
    The army needs: "Ground, water, and underwater airborne assault aircraft - ekranoplan." Or in another way: an autonomous combat weapon for all types of environments, a clear stump - except for space. Such a thing, if military inventors have the funds, can be created today. The device moves on the ground in jumps, both in a straight line and in zigzags, similarly on water and under water. It emerges from the water, flies over the surface and again dives under the water in the same zigzag pattern. Swims ashore and again zigzags with jumps in the air and short-term soaring, until the next soft landing and the next jump. Think gentlemen, owners of factories and ships, as well as poor and homeless fellow inventors. The state has withdrawn itself and in the institutes of the Moscow Region, designers are inventing motorbikes, visors for armored vehicles, sapper shovels and other rubbish. Today's system cannot achieve revolutionary solutions in the field of military equipment. We must return to the old system of planned digital economic management with collective ownership of the means of production of the main industries. Everything new is a well-forgotten old, in a new digital form, controlled by artificial intelligence.
  7. +6
    14 September 2023 13: 11
    Quote: Berkut752
    I belittle you for what you think. I will say this as a person involved in production. THE MAIN THING is specialists: engineers, mechanics, welders. There will be them, there will be a tank.

    There will be, this year I decided to get additional education, I entered the Polytechnic, Faculty of Mechanical Engineering (equipment and technologies for welding production), there are a lot of people for mechanical engineering, both on a budget and for a limited amount, there is a competition. They don’t hire everyone even for commercial purposes. For two years I couldn’t get a passing grade even for paid tuition.
    1. +5
      14 September 2023 14: 22
      Well done. In the XNUMXs, the word technologist was completely forgotten. The authorities sincerely understood this - to come up with something and immediately sell it overseas.
  8. +2
    14 September 2023 13: 55
    They can even start from scratch. Although the T-80 has some components, structures and mechanisms (from our previous tank, the T-64A), which have passed the operational test, they are modified taking into account new solutions, materials, etc. The T-80U tank with a turbine was produced at the Omsktransmash plant in Omsk (assembly lines most likely remained, but if they were and now are not, they will quickly assemble them according to old working drawings), the second enterprise, with a diesel engine, in Kharkov, but it's practically gone.
  9. +3
    14 September 2023 14: 28
    Quote from Muscool
    The Tu 160m was restored, why can’t they handle the T80?
    The drawings were clearly not burned.
    And there are enough people who can read drawings and work on them

    Who told you this? People with professions: turner, milling machine operator, mechanic will soon be gone. Where I was born, grew up and studied to become a car mechanic-mechanic for repairing industrial equipment in 90-93, after 97, all vocational schools in the city were closed, even last year mining technical school. And this is not only in one city, but almost everywhere in the country. Now I work in another city and they wanted to hire only specialists with specialist diplomas at our plant, but no one is coming, now they are hiring salespeople for the position of mechanics and cooks as mechanics. The fur shop is coming soon They will close because there are no turners, milling operators, or blacksmiths for 2 years, and everyone who works is just old people and elderly people.
  10. -2
    14 September 2023 15: 30
    T-34 - to produce cooler and cheaper.
  11. +3
    14 September 2023 16: 23
    armored vehicles are reaching their last years due to high-precision weapons... whoever has the most drones/missiles will win
  12. 0
    14 September 2023 18: 08
    If everything goes smoothly in the western direction, then the tanks will most likely serve close to home, in Siberia and the Far East, and will also be used to replenish reserves. If, after the last Ukrainian, a war begins until the last Balt, the last Pole and further down the list, then the T-80 will still have the chance to take part in the “race to the English Channel”

    It turns out that this tank will come in handy in any case. In the first case, for service in Siberia, the Arctic and the Far East, since no one canceled the West’s plans to seize the Arctic, as well as Japan’s plans to seize the “ancestral territories”. In the second case, just for what it was designed for - for racing to the English Channel.

    Ideally, the Black Eagle project would be revived...
  13. +1
    14 September 2023 19: 08
    The problem is that more or less fresh machines are required as a basis, which, before modernization, A simple overhaul is enough

    What is more complicated and labor-intensive than capital? Kapilka is the essence of a complete inspection and defect detection of the machine with the replacement of almost ALL components and mechanisms except the body!
    Of course, it happens that the body is patched using Paton’s methods - in fact, by submerged arc welding, casting pieces in place and in place... BUT!
    1. +5
      14 September 2023 19: 48
      I like this:

      the deployment of production will take from a couple to several years, and by the time the first production vehicles go into combat units, fascist Ukraine will already be over...

      I love Russian proverbs and sayings. As one of them says:

      Fresh tradition, but hard to believe ..
  14. 0
    14 September 2023 23: 35
    Guys, we’ll have to go to Washington, through Alaska. That's exactly when the tanks will keep up. Do you think Kyiv is everything? And China will go there through Hawaii and California after Taiwan. Otherwise, we will have to create a Strait named after Sakharov between Mexico and Canada, is this what we need? These kikimoras in the Washington swamp, there is no other way to calm them down. Only Colt, figuratively.
  15. +1
    14 September 2023 23: 41
    The dashing “eighties”: will the Russian military-industrial complex be overstrained by the production of “new old” tanks

    What exactly is the problem? We read right here

    The fact is that the components and assemblies of the T-80 are quite widely used on many other combat vehicles, for example on the Msta-S and Malka self-propelled guns, self-propelled chassis of the Buk and Tor anti-aircraft systems and others. That is, the unification is obvious, just not with tanks, but with other types of equipment - but what difference does it make if these very common parts still need to be produced regardless of whether the “eighty” is on the assembly line or not?

    Those. the chassis is being produced. And further -

    Therefore, there is an opinion that the new “eighties” will continue to move towards the T-90M and will receive a turret that is as similar in design as possible with a “flat” Ural-type AZ, since a similar option for modernizing the old chassis with the installation of a unified fighting compartment has already been worked out within the framework of the Burlak R&D project.

    I don’t know how problematic it is to fit a combat module from a T-90M onto a T-80 chassis, but I think this problem can be solved, and in a short time (if there is a desire)! hi
    1. +1
      15 September 2023 17: 06
      So, thinking further, we approach the units and components of the T-14, - we put on the T-80 base an uninhabited turret with a loading atomizer, sights and other means, we cut the crew down to two with all-round information and intelligence support from the outside, and we quickly and efficiently get a new generation tank , though "economy" class.
  16. +1
    15 September 2023 08: 40
    During the Second World War there was a tested system of tanks. Light, medium and heavy. These are the requirements of combat operations. It should be. It was after the war that the term main tank was coined. But this appeared in the post-war period. And this concept was not tested in combat in wars between states. The desert storm doesn't count. Iraq and other states are consumers of the concepts. The most important trendsetter in tank fashion and supplier of concepts was the USSR, and now the Russian Federation. Even the USA follows the Soviet concept. Now we are back to the concept of WWII tank battles. That is, the role of light tanks is performed by the BMP, the role of medium tanks (such as maneuverable and high-speed T-34) by the T-80, and the role of heavy breakthrough tanks (such as the KV and IS-2 tanks) by the T-90.
    1. 0
      20 September 2023 21: 01
      rather, the role of light tanks is played by the cornet, the medium T90 T80, and the heavy ones are 203mm self-propelled guns, in general there are only two types of main tanks, T90 and T80, and they are unified in everything except the engine, the T72 has been discontinued, although it remains in service, but this is not the type of a new tank, and the modernization of the old one, obviously armata, will not go into production, ...T55 and T64 are self-propelled guns, and they will be actively written off..... so the T90 T 80 type remains only
  17. +1
    15 September 2023 17: 42
    Was the T-14 “urgently taken out” from the Northern Military District zone for modifications?
    That's for sure - for the sake of a nice word...
    You're overacting, Author.
  18. 0
    18 September 2023 21: 40
    Can't wait! And war is always the engine of progress!!!!!
  19. 0
    19 September 2023 18: 29
    It seems that the Armata project has greatly spoiled domestic tank building...