What conclusions can be drawn from the inglorious death of the "Provorny" corvette

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A tragic event took place in St. Petersburg the night before. At the shipyard, the almost completed corvette of project 20385 "Provorny", which was supposed to be delivered to the fleet next year, caught fire. Judging by the footage from the place of the fire, the ship burned out almost completely, canceling out the previous 10 years of unhurried work. The inglorious death of the "Agile" is a huge loss for the Russian Navy. This misfortune reflected in itself all the problems of the domestic navy and the shipbuilding industry, which I would like to talk about.

The smoke of the Fatherland is bitter and unpleasant for us


First, it is necessary to explain why the corvette turned into a real fiery torch. Many questions immediately arose as to what would happen to the ship in real combat conditions if a missile hit it. Do you have to deliberately drown it in order to extinguish it?



You won't have to. It would seem, why burn so much on an unfinished warship, which was designed taking into account the requirements of survivability? The fact is that the hull and superstructure are made according to stealthtechnology to reduce its visibility, as well as the total mass, therefore, a lot of composite materials and light alloys were used. They burned. But the corvette put into operation is protected by fire extinguishing systems and the actions of a trained crew. At the shipyard, ships under construction or being repaired are in the most vulnerable position, since the corresponding systems are deactivated. Here, one "crooked" worker who violated safety regulations, or a deliberately acting pest is enough to start a fire.


And this is not only our problem. Let us recall how the American universal amphibious assault ship Bonom Richard recently burned out. The fire blazed for several days, from 12 to 17 July, destroying 60% of the ship. As a result, it turned out to be more profitable to dispose of the burnt-out helicopter carrier than to restore and build a new one.

Small but remote


Now it is necessary to explain why the loss of the little "Agile" is a big blow to the defense capability of our country. Unfortunately, ordinary Russians for the most part do not understand the true meaning of the Russian Navy. These are not just "beautiful boats" that sail to the shores of Syria and are shown at a parade once a year. No, this is the most important component of Russia's "nuclear shield".

Our potential adversaries are the United States and NATO as a whole. The Americans have already proved in practice that the use of atomic weapons against peaceful cities does not pose any problem for them at all. Likewise, nothing stops the Pentagon from a nuclear strike on Russia, except for the fear of receiving a retaliatory strike. The combined power of the North Atlantic Alliance may allow it to knock out a significant part of the land and air components of our "nuclear trials" - airfields where strategic missile carriers, silos with intercontinental ballistic missiles, and nuclear arsenals are based. They will not destroy everything, of course, but the "weight" of the retaliatory strike will be significantly reduced, making the task for the American missile defense system easier.

The naval components of the "nuclear triad" will remain - nuclear submarines equipped with ICBMs, the main protection of which is their stealth. Unfortunately, we do not have many SSBNs, and the secrecy factor is not so absolute. The US Navy and NATO bloc have powerful anti-submarine forces that are capable of large-scale hunt for Russian nuclear submarines. The Russian Navy will be tasked with safely withdrawing the Boreis to the areas of combat deployment, from where they can effectively shoot. And this is a non-trivial task, which, alas, is incomprehensible to anyone except professional military personnel and experts who popularize this topic.

First, it is necessary to withdraw the SSBNs from the base, but the submarine can be destroyed by the enemy's underwater "hunters" even at this stage. Admiral Valentin Selivanov, the former Chief of the Main Staff of the Navy, who talks about the problems of the Pacific Fleet of the Russian Federation, will not allow lying:

They can be on duty there to meet our strategic missile carriers leaving the base: it will be difficult to find them in the ocean, but much easier off the coast. There are no stationary anti-submarine weapons there: there are great depths on the approaches to Kamchatka. Therefore, the grouping of corvettes is increasing. Of course, two ships are not enough there. We need a lot of funds, including aviation.

To protect our nuclear submarines in the near sea zone, we need numerous corvette-class anti-submarine ships. Without them, "Boreas" can die almost at the pier as ingloriously as "Agile" burned down. By the way, business does not end in the near sea zone. The area of ​​SSBN combat deployment should be covered by a large naval group capable of fighting off aircraft, URO ships and numerous multipurpose nuclear submarines of the enemy. To effectively counter the AUG of the US Navy, oddly enough, it needs its own aircraft carriers and helicopter carriers with their carrier-based fighters, AWACS aircraft to issue target designations to missiles and anti-submarine helicopters. The USSR understood this perfectly, and therefore built a series of TAVRKs, the top of which was to be the nuclear aircraft carrier of the Ulyanovsk project.

Alas, but today we have 0 aircraft carriers, 0 helicopter carriers and minus 1 anti-submarine corvette in the ranks. This means that the given combat mission with a high degree of probability will not be completed. The conclusion is that the surface fleet - from a small corvette to a gigantic aircraft carrier - is the most important component of the "nuclear triad." But, as you know, “we don’t need aircraft carriers,” so let's talk about corvettes and the near sea zone.

"Universals" against their will


The "Provorny", which burned down the day before, belongs to a series of Project 20380 (20385) corvettes of the "Guarding" type. This is the most numerous series of ships of the main classes in modern Russia. And this is largely a necessary measure. The problem is that after the severing of ties with Ukraine, the domestic shipbuilding industry lost the ability to quickly build large surface ships. The maximum that the resource is enough for is the slowly building frigates of Project 22350 and a couple of UDCs laid down in Kerch last year. Therefore, you have to squeeze the maximum out of the corvettes, endowing them, among other things, with functions unusual for them.

Project 20380 corvettes are essentially small frigates, which are required to be able to fight not only with submarines, but also with enemy surface ships, as well as provide missile and artillery support for amphibious assault forces. Corvettes of the 20385 series of the "Thundering" type became a further development of this project, even more successful. They are larger than their predecessors, equipped with 8 UKSK with the ability to use missiles "Caliber", "Onyx", "Zircon", they carry anti-submarine, sonar and radar systems, as well as an anti-submarine helicopter Ka-27PL, they have increased the ammunition of the Redut air defense missile system. These are really good ships in the near zone, but they are expected to work efficiently even in the far zone, they are even entrusted with air defense tasks atypical for corvettes, which can only be explained by an acute shortage of surface ships in the Russian Navy.

At Severnaya Verf they managed to build the lead ship of the Thundering series, and the second, Agile, which burned out yesterday, was to be handed over to the Pacific Fleet next year. One of the same type "Buyny" was laid down this year at the "Amur Shipyard", 3 more corvettes will be laid there in the coming years. This is all you can count on for now. In this regard, the fire on the almost completed "Provorny" is a real tragedy, which brings us to new unpleasant questions.

In no hurry


Most of all, the incredible time frame for the construction of corvettes causes bewilderment. "Thundering" was founded in 2012 and commissioned in 2020. "Agile" was laid down in 2013 and was planned to be commissioned at the end of 2022. Almost 10 years, Karl! And this is for a small boat with a total displacement of 2430 tons. During this time, you can build an "unnecessary" aircraft carrier with a displacement of 100 thousand tons, or even two. Some kind of disgrace.

It is obvious that the domestic shipbuilding industry is in a deep systemic crisis, and Severnaya Verf, in particular, is not coping. Recall that in addition to the slowly building corvettes there are also engaged in project 23500 and 23500M frigates, which should become the main "workhorse" of the Russian Navy in the far sea zone. Such delays, and even more so, fires on almost built ships, are simply unacceptable. In this regard, it seems advisable to diversify the risks and transfer part of the orders for frigates and corvettes to another shipyard. For example, to the Kaliningrad "Yantar", which has the necessary capacities. Here is what the general director of the enterprises I.S. Samarin:

During a recent visit to the plant of Aleksey Krivoruchko, we, among others, raised the question of the possibility of additional loading of Yantar. Today we have a load for one or two years, and by the end of 2022, slipways are vacated. In principle, we can continue to build a series of ships or carry out individual orders. Therefore, we offered ourselves to the Ministry of Defense as an executor of a contract for two frigates, or it could be corvettes.

Anti-submarine corvettes and multipurpose frigates of project 22350 / 22350M are too needed by the Russian Navy for the country to depend on one shipyard, which is not able to build ships quickly enough and cannot save them before delivery to the customer. Order distribution can speed up the naval saturation process and reduce risks.
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  1. -14
    18 December 2021 12: 07
    -Well, it means that the Turks need to order our entire navy - what is there ... here ... there is still to discuss ...
    1. -10
      18 December 2021 12: 33
      Yes. The Turks with fires and floods in shipbuilding and ship repair yards, things are not so alarming. The Chinese are also safer.
  2. -1
    18 December 2021 12: 07
    A terrorist attack - definitely!
    1. -1
      18 December 2021 14: 55
      rival shipyard?
      1. 0
        18 December 2021 18: 27
        also version
    2. +2
      18 December 2021 22: 54
      This is not a terrorist attack, it is very similar to a sabotage !!!
      1. +1
        18 December 2021 23: 38
        a terrorist attack committed by saboteurs!
  3. +5
    18 December 2021 12: 11
    sabotage cannot be ruled out
  4. -9
    18 December 2021 12: 12
    Most of all, the incredible time frame for the construction of corvettes causes bewilderment.

    Objects for the Sochi Olympics were also built. With an increase in construction time, its cost increases. They steal, in a word! This is what Putin's power is based on.
    1. -4
      18 December 2021 13: 08
      It is not clear to whom Putin is giving ultimatums. Not only that, wherever you look - in any country of a potential enemy, villas, castles, wives, children, and close associates. So also there is nothing special to fight with. It will not be possible to endlessly exploit Soviet warehouse stocks, and with its own, the Kremlin is extremely sparse. And what is, is plundered on the stocks, and then set on fire strictly according to the "Operation Y" technology.
      And, by the way, the firefighters have already announced that they arrived at the fire at the wrong time, because they simply could not get there - snow blockages. Winter - who could expect snowfall? Of course, Severnaya Verf has its own fire department, but if something is extinguished, only a burning trash can. Little because. Optimization, you know ...
      1. 0
        19 December 2021 17: 54
        Do you copy other people's posts?
      2. -1
        20 December 2021 07: 03
        I'm just wondering if you took this text from Nesmiyan, or is it from you?
  5. -6
    18 December 2021 12: 17
    Recurring fires on ships being repaired, evidence of major systemic flaws. First of all, a disregard for compliance with the requirements of the ROZHRK (Guidelines for ensuring hot work on ships under repair). Well, on those under construction, the procedure for issuing orders for hot work and the organization of such work is not followed. End of the year, the funds allocated for the current year must be mastered by 01.01.2022. Here and all together in a crowd in one room and painters, and welders, and electricians, and riggers, shouts, obscenities, assault, simplification of the smoking process.

    And this is not only our problem. Let us recall how the American universal amphibious assault ship Bonom Richard recently burned out. The fire blazed for several days, from 12 to 17 July, destroying 60% of the ship. As a result, it turned out to be more profitable to dispose of the burnt-out helicopter carrier than to restore and build a new one.

    Biden has a lot. The loss of even a pair of UDCs will not radically affect the combat readiness of the amphibious assault forces of the US Navy. And we have every corvette (IPC according to the old) on strict account.

    To protect our nuclear submarines in the near sea zone, we need numerous corvette-class anti-submarine ships.

    Their crews will not pull the near zone, only the coastal zone. Taking into account the meteorological conditions of the autumn-winter period in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk, the White and Barents Seas, the Black Sea, and the Baltic. And so is the scarcity of naval aviation forces to cover these ships.

    Project 20380 corvettes are essentially small frigates, which are required to be able to fight not only with submarines, but also with enemy surface ships, as well as provide missile and artillery support for amphibious assault forces.

    This is unlikely. Against one foreign frigate or destroyer, you can still risk. But you won't be able to act effectively against a detachment. In view of the limited ammunition on board, first of all, in view of the impossibility of operational build-up of the reserve, reinforcement.
    1. +3
      18 December 2021 14: 15
      hi Do not forget the persistent attempts to "inadvertently" burn and drown the unfortunate only Russian "ersatz aircraft carrier" ... after all, as the famous cartoon master Oogway said (quoting the little-known Chinese thinker Chuang Tzu, and completely unknown military counterintelligence agents, too winked ):

      "Accidents are not accidental!"
      what
      1. -5
        18 December 2021 14: 24
        The TAVKR Kuznetsov was under repair, not at the plant, as a new building. He almost drowned in the PD-50, if not for the well-coordinated actions of the crew. Then there were fires. At the KChF, a freshly repaired BOD Kerch was burned.
        1. +3
          18 December 2021 14: 27
          The TAVKR burned "under repair", even before the attempt to drown along with the dock, and everything was, as it were, "accidentally" ?!
          Or is my memory cheating ?! what
          1. -2
            18 December 2021 14: 28
            The TAVKR burned twice, before and after.
            1. +4
              18 December 2021 14: 32
              hi I would not be surprised if something like this "happens" to him, when nothing remains at all before commissioning (although now the restoration of his combat readiness is a question of questions)! request
              1. -2
                18 December 2021 14: 50
                Judging by the trend with the safety of work at shipyards, it is quite. To deprive the KSF of ships of the first rank without using ammunition is very tempting. The sinking of the PD-50 greatly distorted the docking schedule for ships of the first rank.
              2. +3
                18 December 2021 14: 57
                And with the drowned Sevastopol floating dock and, long years repaired in it "diesel", in general, it turned out interesting!
                Every time, from year to year, visiting Sevastopol in the summer (still "in Ukraine"), walking from the railway station to Nakhimov Square past the docks of the South Bay and habitually observing near floating docks with this "ever-repairing" half-disassembled submarine in it, I could not to get rid of the alarming feeling of some kind of "thickening" catastrophe here (but attributed it to the events of the military past in these places, abundantly watered with human blood and human tragedies, there on one of the city houses were written very precise words of Leo Tolstoy "about the Sevastopol land ", with whom I agree 100%) ... don't believe your premonitions ?! winked
                1. -6
                  18 December 2021 15: 00
                  380 million rubles were spent on the repair of that diesel engine B-800.
      2. 0
        18 December 2021 14: 57
        About the poor "Kuzyu" hesitated to mention. Otherwise they'll say conspiracy theory ...
        1. +5
          18 December 2021 15: 03
          hi What is it "theory conspiracy ", Sergei!
          On the face successful systematic practice destruction of warships and ship repair equipment of the Russian fleet, in its own bases!
          We have not yet mentioned the regular "accidental fires" on Russian nuclear-powered ships "under repair" (where they are most vulnerable to simple and low-cost destruction by the enemy)!
  6. -7
    18 December 2021 12: 30
    equipped with 8 UKSK with the ability to use missiles "Caliber", "Onyx", "Zircon",

    Before equipping with Zircon 3M22, and even with a guidance system for mobile targets, like the moon on a donkey, they also burned a freshly repaired BOD Kerch at the KChF. A lot of fires and drowning (PD-50, diesel engine B-380, on the repair of which they spent 800 million rub).

    During a recent visit to the plant of Aleksey Krivoruchko, we, among others, raised the question of the possibility of additional loading of Yantar. Today we have a load for one or two years, and by the end of 2022, slipways are vacated. In principle, we can continue to build a series of ships or carry out individual orders. Therefore, we offered ourselves to the Ministry of Defense as an executor of a contract for two frigates, or it could be corvettes.

    The controversial dubious statement of Mr. Samarin. The phrase "in principle" casts doubts on what was said.
    From the network in contact: Ilya Samarin, at a meeting with trade union activists, called the situation at the enterprise “difficult”. “There is loading for one and a half to two years. But, of course, we must look further. All orders are interesting, but there is no fixed price for any of them. We are working on it now. In six months, we should reach normal financial flows. There are good prospects, ”said the director of the enterprise.

    Just as OKB "Fakel", when the management was changed, began to rot in the XNUMXs according to the same scheme, so now mold has gone to the whole "Yantar". The bosses' houses are just being built, and qualified personnel will have to look for something to eat in principle.

    Due to the fact that everyone in our country is afraid to demand a decent salary, both skilled and unskilled labor will be underestimated. For example, in Germany, trade unions are always fighting for better working conditions and higher wages through strikes. Therefore, their salary level is several times higher than in Russia.

    Looked at the wages of workers - shipbuilders in Gdansk and Klaipeda. $ 1000 to $ 1200. In Gdansk, free housing is provided by the employer. Workers - shipbuilders from Ukraine are invited. I think that workers from Kaliningrad will also be taken.

    For many years we have been told tales that we have low labor productivity, that Russians are lazy and do not want to work, etc., so long as employers do not pay decent wages to workers. People need to start respecting themselves and their work.

    https://vk.com/wall-24701002_616234

    Violations of labor laws at the enterprise.

    https://nahjob.top/black_list/%D0%B0%D0%BA%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%
  7. +6
    18 December 2021 13: 28
    And it was not necessary to hire Khokhlov and guest workers…. In general, it looks more like sabotage ...
    1. -2
      18 December 2021 14: 25
      Yes, they were recruiting from a crowd. Here are questions about maintaining the counterintelligence regime on the ship.
    2. +1
      18 December 2021 19: 42
      100: sabotage! The country has turned into a leaky sieve, come in whoever wants and where they want!
  8. +3
    18 December 2021 13: 57
    And there is no traction, for a time when the standard fire extinguishing system and signaling does not work, put and test a temporary house? And where will the coatings, light alloys go, in a real battle, what will the fire extinguishing system fight with? What an idiocy !!! They should not be on the ship, and then there will be ALMOST nothing to fight with. Light alloys that enter the exothermic combustion mode, containing, for example, magnesium. Silumin alloys do not burn, even when molten, only when molten droplets fall on a clearly rusted steel surface, forming a mixture called thermite. But how can a box melt without being heated? If such a party has gone that engines, turbines, artillery cellars start to burn, then, of course ...
  9. +7
    18 December 2021 14: 00
    No words.
    And not the first time! it was possible to take into account the experience!

    It can be seen that if it lights up somewhere, it means someone needs it.
  10. +5
    18 December 2021 14: 25
    - And money? .. - What money? !!! .. (phrase from the film)
  11. +7
    18 December 2021 14: 27
    Apparently the stolen amount became critical for the poor corvette and therefore it was decided to bury him, but sabotage is also possible, because now it is quite possible ...
  12. +2
    18 December 2021 14: 59
    Hmm .. to what extent was you ready? according to the documents and really! The money ... "mastered" ... can be burned.
    And again - "Give me money! We will build a new one." Modern "Russians are doing this. A good example is the Vostochny cosmodrome. When was it supposed to be commissioned !?
  13. +1
    18 December 2021 15: 05
    this next fire is definitely a disaster. But the trouble is in terms of the regularity of fires. As a combat unit, this corvette is of no particular value, as the author promoted it, does not represent. Weak air defense: a primitive air defense system and a poor radar "Furke" with an undeveloped propulsion system. I don’t know how the corvette is on the issue of sonar weapons. The station is both under the keel and towed. Hope everything is ok here. The big question is the K-27pl helicopter, which, due to its old age and uselessness, will soon become legendary and has been in operation for 50 years. It is long overdue to replace it with a more modern one. They promise to make an anti-submarine helicopter of the Lamprey project by 2025. But, as a rule, the dates are always shifted to the right.
    1. 0
      18 December 2021 15: 13
      I did not advertise the corvette, but on the contrary sarcastically that they were trying to make a universal ship out of it due to an acute shortage. Which is simply impossible. It's a pity you didn't understand.
      It should be a PLO corvette. Specialized.
      1. +1
        19 December 2021 23: 01
        I didn’t advertise the corvette, but, on the contrary, sarcastically that they were trying to make a universal ship out of it due to an acute shortage. Which is simply impossible.

        It should be a PLO corvette. Specialized.

        Yes, I agree.
        But that means 20385 is a "bad" solution. Precisely because of the attempt to give it "universality". So this is not a catastrophe, but simply losses in terms of missing resources and time.
        1. 0
          20 December 2021 06: 41
          Yes, an attempt to make a station wagon out of a small corvette is the lesser of evils, since it is forced, because it is nothing like a station wagon. Greater specialization is needed to improve efficiency.
          I did not use the word catastrophe. This is a disaster for the Pacific Fleet, since it will not receive the anti-submarine corvette it needs next year.
  14. +2
    18 December 2021 15: 44
    1) For today, there are no plans for new bookmarks of corvettes, except for the ASZ. At the "Severnaya Verf" ships are being built 20380 "Strict" and "Mercury" (ex-"Zealous"). It is doubtful that two of them will be enough for the Black Sea Fleet.
    2) We entered the Navy, but survived the fire of the minesweeper 12700 "Georgy Kurbatov" (built at SNSZ) and the frigate 1155M "Marshal Shaposhnikov" (repairs at the CS "Dalzavod"). Along with the last one, in February 2018, TFR 11540 "Fearless" burned on PSZ "Amber" and is still under renovation. The main question is the extent of the damage to the ship from the fire: I would not want a repetition of the fate of the "Kerch" BOD.
    1. +2
      18 December 2021 15: 49
      Not smeared with honey on Yantar, in vain they highlighted in bold type with a hint. smile I'm not a PR man for this plant.
      It's just that there are free capacities and there is experience in the construction of ships of the size of a destroyer. There would be a couple of corvettes and a couple of 23500M to lay down and start building.
      1. +3
        18 December 2021 16: 21
        And I didn't think to hint: fires in shipyards are becoming commonplace ..

        There would be a couple of corvettes and a couple of 23500M to lay down and start building.

        Yesterday's tragedy, free stocks on the Yantar next year and the planned repair of the head corvette "Guarding" in the spring of 2015 in the same place, perhaps, will push the Ministry of Defense to such a decision.
        1. +3
          18 December 2021 16: 45
          I would like to. This is a smart decision. Orders must be distributed to speed up.
  15. +3
    18 December 2021 15: 52
    each problem has a last name, first name and patronymic. Whether it is a crooked worker, or a straight-handed saboteur, the perpetrators must be found and destroyed. and not alone. with a trailer.
  16. -2
    18 December 2021 16: 39
    I never saw the connection between the burnt out (sabotage?) Corvette and the one capable of shooting directly from the SSBN berth.
    1. +2
      18 December 2021 16: 47
      Tell me, why build SSBNs at all, if you can put missiles at every berth?
      Maybe because all the berths are known and are at gunpoint?
      Maybe because an ICBM launched from a berth is easier not only to prevent preventive destruction, but also to intercept?
      Maybe with SSBN everything is not as simple as we would like, and they also need to be protected?
      They seem to explain it to you in human language, but you are simply unbreakable.
      You still write about stratospheric bombers on a nuclear engine, people will laugh. hi
      1. 0
        18 December 2021 21: 56
        Well, in that case, no ship orders will help. Whether corvettes or aircraft carriers.
        Getting involved in an arms and naval race with the West is initially a losing scenario. The whole country will have to be put on a war footing. If under Stalin it was still justified, then today this path will only lead the liberals to power. What, in fact, the globalists are trying to achieve.
        So yes, the most effective way is the latest types of weapons, moreover, in the minimum required quantities. The most optimal are precisely stratospheric bombers with high-precision missiles.
        I am sure our management understands this better than anyone. Therefore, they did not rush to churn out the "Armata" and the Su-57, as they did in the USSR.
        1. +1
          19 December 2021 06: 39
          So yes, the most effective way is the latest types of weapons, moreover, in the minimum required quantities. The most optimal are precisely stratospheric bombers with high-precision missiles.
          I am sure our management understands this better than anyone. Therefore, they did not rush to churn out the "Armata" and the Su-57, as they did in the USSR.

          Our production capabilities simply do not allow us to stamp the Armata and the Su-57. All these "asymmetric responses" are from weakness.
          Your fantastic stratospheric bombers are something that will never be realized. Absolutely worthless crap, which there is nothing to do, no one and no need, especially since the Americans ALREADY have the means to counter this garbage, like the X-37B spaceplanes. Elements of a missile defense system are planned, placed directly in space. Throwing hundreds of billions into what is guaranteed to be knocked down?
          With Comrade Stalin would not have patted you on the head for such projectile-sabotage.

          Well, in that case, no ship orders will help. Whether corvettes or aircraft carriers.
          Getting involved in an arms and naval race with the West is initially a losing scenario. The whole country will have to be put on a war footing

          1) The warrant of the aircraft carrier, together with the naval aviation, will only help when performing a specific task - to shoot Boreyas and try to destroy some of the NATO submarines and ships. Without them, this is simply an impossible task. No Zircons will help, we even have nothing to direct them to the target without an AWACS deck aircraft.
          2) Of course, no battles for the atolls against the US Navy shine for us, the forces will still be unequal. We will never achieve parity at sea. We don't need 12 AUGs, we need 4 nuclear aircraft carriers, 2 each for the Northern and Pacific fleets, with new frigates and destroyers for escort, plus powerful Naval Aviation. Aircraft carriers and helicopter carriers are needed for the formation of air defense, for reconnaissance and target designation by the Zirkons, plus as the core of an anti-submarine search and strike group. Unlike stratospheric bombers, these are real tasks that can and MUST be implemented.
          3) The country participating in Cold War-2 should have started to be put on a war footing back in 2014. What VVP is doing is a profanation. The result will be appropriate. And yes, the liberals are already in power in our country, if you don't know. Probably, there is some kind of relationship between all of the above.
          1. 0
            20 December 2021 14: 12
            An old song about the advantage of a bow over a clumsy crossbow, a crossbow over a first firearm, a horse over a self-propelled cart, etc.
            And also anti-aircraft artillery over the first missiles. With your logic it is necessary to return to the Middle Ages.
            Hundreds of billions of dollars are about weapons of the 20th century. And in vain.
            And as for stratospheric bombers, I have already dropped the link for you, but you pretended not to notice.
            And I see no reason to repeat myself about the stamping of the "Armat" and the Su-57. It becomes obvious that you are processing an order. It's not hard to guess whose.
            1. 0
              20 December 2021 19: 14
              And I see no reason to repeat myself about the stamping of the "Armat" and the Su-57. It becomes obvious that you are processing an order. It's not hard to guess whose.

              Whose? More?

              And as for stratospheric bombers, I have already dropped the link for you, but you pretended not to notice.

              This is ridiculous. Launching the defense industry in an unpromising direction is a kind of sabotage.

              An old song about the advantage of a bow over a clumsy crossbow, a crossbow over a first firearm, a horse over a self-propelled cart, etc.
              And also anti-aircraft artillery over the first missiles. With your logic it is necessary to return to the Middle Ages.
              Hundreds of billions of dollars are about weapons of the 20th century. And in vain.

              Porridge is in your head. IMHO
  17. 0
    18 December 2021 18: 46
    only the composite skin of the superstructure can burn there, they will be replaced and put into operation
  18. +2
    18 December 2021 18: 48
    I wanted the best, but got it as always
  19. +1
    18 December 2021 18: 51
    Quote: gunnerminer
    For example, in Germany, trade unions are always fighting for better working conditions and higher wages through strikes. Therefore, their salary level is several times higher than in Russia.

    For example, in Germany this production is in private hands, but in our country ..... The President (not of our country) will be able to order to give the minimum wage, with which it is not a shame to go to the store, since he will say this to the private owner. Ours, with all his patriotism and love for the people, will not be able to do this. Because all of us, in the vast majority, are dependent on the budget. To dig his own grave ... And, therefore, we do not have and did not have that bogey with which the hard workers rule their wages. I'm talking about trade unions. To summarize, neither the state, nor the trade unions here ... Only the mercy of the boss. which is highly questionable and unreliable.
    Gaidar (who is Timur) wrote that strong trade unions with a weak economy would destroy the state. With all his dislike for him, he, an infection, said the right thing.
    So what's the way out? They'll strangle me right now, but I'll tell you. (Like that Khazanov parrot). Privatization. And the removal of the state from production and services. Leave him what it is actually intended to do - REGULATE. PROTECT. PROTECT LAWS. Is the example with trade enough? EVERYTHING HAPPENED, despite the fact that the production died. And the sellers were the first to greet. Which has never happened in the USSR. But, we are Shvonders and Sharikovs. We will die of envy, looking at the dachas of the rich, of which, of course, there will be more. Or let's start a revolution. Although, it would be correct to fight not with wealth, but with poverty.
    1. +2
      18 December 2021 19: 48
      Yeah, in our country, giving up private hands is tantamount to immediately giving up to the enemy. This is the mentality of our nouveau riche
  20. +1
    18 December 2021 19: 41
    Someone believes in a "crooked" worker? Ridiculous, by God! Overshot
  21. 0
    18 December 2021 21: 29
    But the corvette put into operation is protected by fire extinguishing systems and the actions of a trained crew.

    If an anti-ship missile system hits the corvette, the fire extinguishing systems and a significant part of the "trained crew" will definitely be disabled, which means that the Russian corvette will burn out all along with the crew. This is the payment for the fascination with stealth technology and composite materials. The saddest thing is that the stealth coating does not at all guarantee the invisibility of the ship, it will still be noticeable on the radar, given how many antenna sources of radiation are on the corvette, its coordinates will be counted out on the count-once.
  22. -1
    18 December 2021 21: 34
    Well, roll with him, with the corvette! There is no order in the country ... it seems that there will not be as long as the country is ruled by the current regime of power ...! Tired of asking questions: "How long !?" , "Who's guilty?" , "What to do?", Which were, are and will be only rhetorical! Anyway, no one will even scratch the "bells"!
  23. -1
    18 December 2021 23: 13
    Quote: milas
    Yeah, in our country, giving up private hands is tantamount to immediately giving up to the enemy. This is the mentality of our nouveau riche

    You are deeply mistaken. Money runs to where it is safer. There are, however, despair, chasing high profits. Such a sea is knee-deep, but natural selection weeds quite diligently such. So where did they expropriate all the property, quite LEGALLY, earned in Russia in the past, before the revolution? Wasn't the Civil War on this occasion flared up? Name another country where the same thing happened. French revolution. I took away loot, treasures, but the very concept of PRIVATE PROPERTY did not touch. The Bolsheviks said everything belongs to everyone. Dot. Why are you offended now? We are the main obstacle to our nouveau riche buying factories instead of yachts. What is this yacht? This is an indestructible contribution. Money in a foreign bank, in principle. you can be arrested, the procedure is boring, unusual, you have to sweat here. But probably. Do you know the story of Khodorkovsky? And the yacht, put it in neutral waters, no one has the right to approach. Until. until the port, which maintains relations with Russia, does not enter. In ports, where there is trouble with Russia, he will stand and rest. Or football clubs. Try to select a football club in England, say. You see. that it is impossible. Not physically. not legally. What, will you take the football field and bring it to Vorkuta? Or a team, they are not all Russian there. With passports not Russian. But, when Shvonderism and Sharikovism go away from us, they will buy factories, believe me. The factory is profitable, and the yacht is just an expense. So, let's change ourselves, and quickly.
  24. +3
    18 December 2021 23: 42
    When this mess is over, the ships and submarines in the shipyards burn with enviable regularity, but for some reason, no conclusions have yet been drawn from this.
    1. -1
      19 December 2021 03: 46
      Have you seen how the superstructure on the ship near the pier burns as a result of the shorting of power cables from the shore? The firefighter-inspector cannot check the quality factor of the power cable and its laying on the ship before ..
  25. +3
    19 December 2021 00: 37
    Unparalleled construction time and level of slovenliness!
    1. 0
      19 December 2021 11: 14
      there is an analogue in the USA, the cruiser Zamvolt
  26. 0
    19 December 2021 01: 57
    Yes, it's all a drunk welder Vasya!
  27. +3
    19 December 2021 03: 40
    In addition to Kaliningrad, there is Khabarovsk, Komsomolsk, Vladivostok, Nizhny Novgorod, Zelenodolsk, but somehow the designers from St. Petersburg and Moscow don't really want to go there.
    1. +2
      19 December 2021 06: 41
      Yes, ships for the fleet can and SHOULD be built in parallel at several factories.
  28. -3
    19 December 2021 11: 13
    what kind of death? the ship will be restored, only the date will be shifted.
    1. 0
      19 December 2021 13: 54
      The Japanese raised the Varyag and used it. Is he dead or not?
      1. 0
        19 December 2021 22: 51
        The Japanese raised the Varyag and used it. Is he dead or not?

        "Died" about a ship - this means that it, the ship, is no longer in the combat composition of this fleet due to damage (in the course of hostilities). Therefore, yes, "perished". Raising / rebuilding for the same fleet under the same name simply does not count as "irrevocable death / loss". Once raised / restored for another fleet - then, of course, for the Russian fleet died.

        Hence SEPARATELY "losses" and "irrecoverable losses", and not only in the fleet.
  29. +1
    19 December 2021 16: 44
    Comrades scientists. It is necessary to revise the entire legislative framework in the field of state defense orders. Laws should play a stimulating role for the enterprise implementing the state defense order. Laws in this area play exactly the opposite role. The legislation system is built in such a way that these are commercially unprofitable orders. Normal specialists, primarily managers, have fled from this sphere. That's why they burn.
  30. +2
    19 December 2021 19: 34
    Quote: NikolayN
    Comrades scientists. It is necessary to revise the entire legislative framework in the field of state defense orders.

    These are not questions for scientists, but for effective managers.
  31. +2
    19 December 2021 21: 29
    If ships are lit, then someone needs it. And it is very likely that someone would not have burned ... oops, they burned a ship, or what looked like a ship, but upon delivery it turned out that it was a piece of something.
  32. 0
    19 December 2021 22: 13
    1. Corvettes of level 22385 (especially in the amount of 1-2 pieces) - not protection of SSGN / SSBN / SSBN.
    2. Russian SSGNs / SSBNs / SSBNs Really MORE vulnerable than ICBMs / PGRKs. The fact that "the coordinates of mine launchers are known" DOES NOT MEAN their vulnerability. Silo ICBMs / PGRKs are vulnerable to a "first disarming strike" only if they fail to launch their ICBMs before they are destroyed. This is not the same for a LONG LONG time - both due to the development of an early warning missile system, and due to a radical reduction in the time for preparing ICBMs for launch. Therefore, by the way, the newest notorious "Sarmatians" are going to be placed in mine launchers, not giving a damn about the fact that "their coordinates are known." Naval strategic nuclear forces are the most vulnerable, most unreliable and most expensive of all types of Russian strategic nuclear forces. They appeared ONLY due to the level of technical development of the USSR at that time. And it's high time to give up on them in favor of more reliable and cheaper types (I'm talking about Russia, not about the USA / Great Britain / France / China).
    3. Corvettes 20385 - this is just a "refill" to much more numerous corvettes 20380, and the loss of one 20385 (even if) does not fundamentally change ANYTHING. Earlier, it was generally stated that the construction of 20385 - after the sanctions of 2014 and the inability to install German diesel engines - would be terminated. (on 2 pieces). Despite the "defenselessness" of the Russian submarine missile carriers. :)
    4. The main threat to Russian naval strategic nuclear forces (with limited protected zones of combat patrols) is hunting submarines under the Arctic ice. No corvettes will help against them. We need ice / underwater systems for tracking, target designation and destruction (which, ABOUT, is now being done in the Arctic). In the open ocean, Russia is NOT IN CONDITION to ensure the combat stability of its naval strategic nuclear forces - the forces are too unequal.
    5. Russia's naval strategic nuclear forces are now a "suitcase without a handle." :) Like the battleships of Great Britain in their time. As the US aircraft carriers are now. :) No "security" corvettes will save you in such a situation.
    1. 0
      20 December 2021 06: 50
      1. Corvettes of level 22385 (especially in the amount of 1-2 pieces) - not protection of SSGN / SSBN / SSBN.

      We kind of talked about the surface fleet as a whole as a way to protect SSBNs. Why juggle? The corvettes have their own tasks in the near sea zone.

      In the open ocean, Russia is NOT IN CONDITION to ensure the combat stability of its naval strategic nuclear forces - the forces are too unequal.
      5. Russia's naval strategic nuclear forces are now a "suitcase without a handle." :) Like the battleships of Great Britain in their time. As the US aircraft carriers are now. :) No "security" corvettes will save you in such a situation.

      Same way. The article seems to even contain hints of how you can change the balance of power in the open ocean in your direction, to some extent, taking into account the development of Naval Aviation.

      The fact that "the coordinates of mine launchers are known" DOES NOT MEAN their vulnerability. Silo ICBMs / PGRKs are vulnerable to a "first disarming strike" only if they fail to launch their ICBMs before they are destroyed. This is not the same for a LONG LONG time - both due to the development of an early warning missile system, and due to a radical reduction in the time for preparing ICBMs for launch. Therefore, by the way, the newest notorious "Sarmatians" are going to be placed in mine launchers, not giving a damn about the fact that "their coordinates are known."

      Will the situation not change if American hypersonic missiles are deployed in Eastern Europe and Ukraine, which fly VERY FAST and against which there is no effective missile defense system? Which can hit the elements of the early warning system and so on. critical infrastructure?
  33. 0
    19 December 2021 23: 25
    On the detection of submarines.

    The point of view that the main parameter of the "detectability" of a submarine is its noise level is becoming obsolete before our eyes, if not already outdated. Modern boats have a noise comparable to that of the ocean, but this does not prevent them from being detected. There are (in the West) "active" hydroacoustic detection equipment. Moreover, those working in the complex are shipborne, aviation, and stationary.
    To use them you need:
    1) To be a maritime country (which only partially applies to Russia), and
    2) Have a HUGE number of detection / destruction vehicles. Of course, relatively "simple" and "cheap". But "simple and cheap" does not mean "with low autonomy and low seaworthiness", like any (including Russian) corvettes.

    The West's rejection of practically all the Treaties (except START III) means that START III is more beneficial for Zarad than for Russia. And this is really so - NOW Russia can EASILY create an almost invulnerable (and relatively cheap) type of strategic nuclear forces - railway missile systems. The problem is ONLY that such a solution makes it (technically) impossible to control the strategic nuclear forces. But, being "cornered" (which is where everything is heading), Russia will take this step. OPTIMAL for it - in the same way as the naval component of the strategic nuclear forces is optimal for the United States.
    1. 0
      20 December 2021 06: 56
      The point of view that the main parameter of the "detectability" of a submarine is its noise level is becoming obsolete before our eyes, if not already outdated. Modern boats have a noise comparable to that of the ocean, but this does not prevent them from being detected. There are (in the West) "active" hydroacoustic detection equipment. Moreover, those working in the complex are shipborne, aviation, and stationary.
      To use them you need:
      1) To be a maritime country (which only partially applies to Russia), and
      2) Have a HUGE number of detection / destruction vehicles. Of course, relatively "simple" and "cheap". But "simple and cheap" does not mean "with low autonomy and low seaworthiness", like any (including Russian) corvettes.

      In general, you just confirmed that the Russian fleet is developing in a dead-end direction, relying on SSBNs. At the same time, a harmoniously developed fleet and naval aviation is needed.
  34. 0
    20 December 2021 05: 25
    It is obvious that the domestic shipbuilding industry is in a deep systemic crisis, and Severnaya Verf, in particular, is not coping.

    I read all the comments here. It is strange that everyone here thinks that the problems of the Russian fleet lie in "slovenliness, disruption of the construction deadlines" of the relevant ministries and structures. And that the S-57 and "Armata" are not being built in any way because of the "negligence" of these very structures. But they will not ask themselves the question: "Does Putin need all this?" Why Putin? Because "he is - Russia". Not you who write here, and not all these "ministries and structures", namely Putin. All the power and all the money is with him. And it is not "the government of Russia or the State Duma" that manages the money of Russia, but it is he - PERSONALLY. Or will you deny it? Well, if you deny it, then write further about your "indignation" by the ministers and state bodies, who "so carelessly build the Russian fleet." The layout is simple. If you start to really spend on the Army, Navy, Aviation, then what will happen? That's right, all the money from "oil and gas" will go to this. And this is necessary for Putin and his oligarchs. This is not why they "are in the galleys, like the damned" serve to put all the money into scrap metal. Why would they do this? They want to live in the West, "move" there, have villas in Paris and Venice, and you offer them to sit in a bunker near Mukhoransk. This will not happen. They will not throw money into pieces of iron and scrap metal in order to "fight" with the West. Putin and the oligarchs need the West to simply "not meddle" in the affairs of Russia with their "human rights", and to allow people to fill their pockets as they want, publican people. And they do not want to fight the West "seriously". Therefore, they will "frighten" the West with new types of weapons and atomic weapons, but they will not fight. And there is no need for tales about the fact that "the West wants to attack Russia" .. Who wants to? What are the last names by name? Merkel, Macron? Who else?
  35. +1
    20 December 2021 06: 51
    "successful" managers save on everything, for example - an imported dry dock for the aircraft carrier "Kuznetsov" in the Northern Fleet - power was cut off on the shore, and the autonomous power supply team at the dock was disbanded in order to save money. As a result, only the design work for raising the dock is estimated at one billion rubles.
    1. The comment was deleted.
  36. -1
    20 December 2021 17: 13
    The injuries to Agile were invented by journalists. Only the superstructure burned down, the hull was not damaged.
    The author could study the topic more closely before presenting unverified information
    1. 0
      20 December 2021 19: 16
      The injuries to Agile were invented by journalists. Only the superstructure burned down, the hull was not damaged.

      What are you talking about. The article was written the morning after the fire.
      And the photos and videos from the place of the fire speak for themselves.
      1. 0
        8 January 2022 07: 58
        You will object when you learn to correctly indicate the project numbers of frigates under construction!
  37. 0
    4 January 2022 10: 38
    With a system of complete irresponsibility at any level, this will continue to be so. Burnt out and okay. It wouldn’t be that everyone who was responsible for the delivery of the defense order was immediately removed, and whoever was imprisoned, so that the next would not think about theft, but about how not to go to prison for not fulfilling orders.