Victims of Import Substitution: Why Russia Sells Its New Corvettes to Algeria


Not so long ago, information was leaked to the American press (Military Watch), citing Algerian sources, that the Algerian Navy plans to strengthen itself by purchasing three multipurpose URO corvettes of the near sea zone of the "Guarding" type from the Russian Federation. And even the dates for receiving the first two ships were designated - 2021-2022. If this happens, then Algeria will become the most influential force in its region, and its ships the most dangerous in Africa. The fact is that Project 20380 corvettes of the "Guarding" type are among the most heavily armed warships of their size range in the world, having no rivals for this rank outside the Russian Federation.


It is not for nothing that according to the NATO classification they are classified not as corvettes, but as frigates. Indeed, our 4th generation warship, which until recently in our country generally belonged to the 3rd rank TFR (small patrol ships of the near sea zone), in terms of firepower surpasses its western classmates by a head and can wage an equal battle with ships , much surpassing it in displacement (even with destroyers with a displacement of up to 5 thousand tons).

Another victim of import substitution, or why this attraction of unprecedented generosity?


One could be glad for the Algerian comrades, they licked their lips for a long time, looking at these our multipurpose invisible ships of the near sea zone. And so they approached, and that way. Since 2013, they have been negotiating their construction. But there was no official information about the conclusion of the contract. For the first time, the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) presented the model of the new version of the corvette of the project 20382 "Tiger" (this is the export version of the project 20380) to the public at the International Maritime Defense Show IMDS-2015 in St. Petersburg. The main difference between this project and the basic one was in the use when completing simplified weapons in export versions, as well as the possibility of replacing weapons systems with Western-made counterparts, depending on the specific requirements of the customer. The basic Russian configuration included the Yakhont or Caliber anti-ship attack complex, two Kashtan-M anti-missile defense systems, an A-190 100 mm artillery gun, and a Ka-27 deck helicopter.

According to rumors, then this contract was signed and it seems that even at the "Severnaya Verf" (St. Petersburg) construction began in 2015, but everything went under the heading "Secret". Information leaked to the press, and again foreign, only during a fire that broke out at PJSC Shipyard Severnaya Verf in July 2015, in which people were injured (1 dead, 6 wounded), then the press got a photo that could to identify the contours of the hull of the "Guarding" class corvette under construction. But the Russian side did not confirm the order, according to which the Algerian Navy was to receive not even three URO corvettes, but as many as six (in two different configurations: the first three with an emphasis on air defense - as air defense ships, the second three as PLO corvettes - with an emphasis on anti-submarine warfare).

Now the information has surfaced. And it seems, why worry? Money does not pull your pocket and is never superfluous. We need to rejoice, the budget has been replenished. But the trouble is that the Algerian Navy did not get the "Tigers" of project 20382, but the corvettes of the project 20380, which are being built at the "Severnaya Verf" by order of the Navy for the Black Sea Fleet of the Russian Federation. These are the corvettes "Zealous" and "Strogiy", laid down in February 2015, the first of them was launched in March 2020 (currently undergoing mooring tests), the second is being prepared for launching in the spring of this year. It would seem, where does such an attraction of unprecedented generosity come from? We ourselves do not have enough ships of this class, why do we scatter them?

Help: Ships of projects 20380/20385 are a series of Russian multipurpose corvettes (small patrol ships) of the 2nd rank with guided missile weapons (URO) of the near sea zone. Developed by the Almaz Central Marine Design Bureau (St. Petersburg) in the late 1990s - early 2000s. Designed to perform escort and strike missions in the near sea zone, patrolling coastal waters, sentinel service. This project of ships for the next 30-40 years was to become the basis of the Russian Navy in the near sea zone.

At the moment, 10 ships of this class have already been built (8 are in service, 2 are launched and are preparing for mooring tests), 3 are under construction. Total 13. And for the construction of 16 corvettes, contracts have been signed between the RF Ministry of Defense and the Severnaya Verf Shipyard (St. Petersburg) and the ASZ (Komsomolsk-on-Amur). It turns out that as of the end of 2020, 29 units of the basic project 20380/20385 and its subsequent modifications were built and contracted, which makes this series of ships the largest series among the main classes of ships of the 4th generation of the Russian Navy. According to the adopted doctrine of the development of the domestic fleet, it is corvettes (along with frigates) that should become the very backbone around which our surface naval forces will be formed. The ship fleet of the Russian Navy is inevitably aging, we run the risk of being left without any BNK (large surface ships) of the 2030st and 1nd rank by 2, and since the budget is not rubber, it was decided to rely on small pennants, saturating them with fire and giving the ability to resist the much larger ships of a potential enemy. So, in contrast to the American destroyers and cruisers, we relied on frigates of the 1st and 2nd rank and corvettes of the 2nd rank.

As of the current moment in the Baltic Sea Fleet there are 4 corvettes of project 20380 - the head "Guarding" (since 2008 in service), as well as "Smart" (since 2011), "Boyky" (since 2013) and "Steadfast" (since 2014). In the Pacific Ocean as part of the Pacific Fleet - "Perfect" (from 2017), "Loud" (from 2018), "Hero of the Russian Federation Aldar Tsydenzhapov" (from 2020), all three ships of the project 20380, and one more project 20385 - "Thundering" (also from 2020). All other under construction and contracted hulls were intended for the Pacific Fleet and the Black Sea Fleet (now, because of the Algerian contract with the Black Sea Fleet, questions have arisen, two ships intended for it are being transferred to Algeria). Why, more on that below.

Advantages and disadvantages of projects 20380/20385


For now, I will explain how project 20380 differs from project 20385. In principle, these are the same type of vessels, the only difference is in armament, which is why the latter was lengthened by 2 meters (106,3 m versus 104,5 m), which led to an increase in displacement (2430 tons versus 2250 tons) and the replacement of the power plant, the capacity of which had to be increased (24 thousand hp versus 20,8 thousand hp). The increase in size made it possible to increase the firepower of the ship by replacing the Uran anti-ship complex (with its subsonic Kh-35U anti-ship missiles) with the UKSK 3S14 with the possibility of using the entire family of Kalibr-NK cruise missiles, the Onyx supersonic anti-ship missiles, and in the future hypersonic "Zircons" (ammunition for 8 missiles). In addition, the ammunition load of the Redut air defense missile system was increased from 12 to 16 cells. As a result of these innovations, a versatile multipurpose air defense-PLO corvette with anti-ship warfare functions (in the basic version of project 20380) turned into a multipurpose attack corvette URO (in its modernized version of project 20385). All this significantly expanded the combat capabilities of the ship. Agree, the appearance of tactical strike missile weapons ("Caliber", "Onyx", "Zircon") will make any kitten a tiger.

With such equipment, this ship already represented a formidable weapon with which it was possible and necessary to go into the distant sea and even oceanic zone to solve the problems: 1) search and destroy submarines of a potential enemy; 2) counteraction to warships of all types and classes; 3) fire support for the landing; 4) conducting patrol and escort operations; 5) protection of maritime communications and marine facilities economic activities; 6) demonstration of the flag and military power of the Russian fleet anywhere in the World Ocean. This was facilitated by the improved seaworthiness of both versions of the ship (it is resistant to roll and is capable of performing combat missions in rough seas of up to 5 points) with an autonomous navigation range of 4 nautical miles (at a speed of 14 knots). And its low radar signature, achieved through the use of new composite materials (in the manufacture of the hull and superstructure, it was possible to reduce the circular dispersion of the radar background by 3 times), significantly increased the survivability of the ship (the probability of targeting an enemy anti-ship missile system on it fell 5 times, from 0,5 , 0,1 to XNUMX).

But all these advantages were crossed out by the only drawback - the unreliability of the power plant, which, despite all its efficiency, low weight and low noise (and as a result of stealth in the hydroacoustic range), still did not allow the ship to be used in the far sea zone. Let me remind you that on both projects - and 20380, and 20385, there were two diesel units DDA-12000 produced by JSC "Kolomna Machine Building Plant". In the 20380 project, 4 diesel engines 10D49 with a capacity of 5200 hp were used for this. (two for each unit), which transmitted torque to two shafts with fixed-pitch propellers through the reverse-reduction gears of the RRD 12000 produced by PJSC "Zvezda" (St. Petersburg). In 20385, 4 diesel engines 16D49 with a capacity of 6000 hp were used for this. from the same manufacturer.

And everything would be fine, but this technique very sensitive to operating conditions. Economical, no words, the corvette "Loud" (5th serial), according to the deputy. Pacific Fleet Commander Rear Admiral Igor Korolev, became "the most economical ship in the entire history of the Navy and is capable of making single autonomous voyages to the shores of Australia." Capable, but will it work? The example of the lead ship of the corvette "Guarding" is alarming. In the first few years of service and combat activity, both medium-speed diesel engines of the main power plant broke down twice on it.

For this reason, it was planned to equip the project 20385 with the German MTU Friedrichshafen diesel engine, but the 2014 sanctions intervened. Because of which, the head corvette "Thundering" was forced to receive, instead of the German power plant, the domestic production of JSC "Kolomna Machine Building Plant" (4 diesel engines 16D49), and from December 2020, as part of the Pacific Fleet, began to serve, according to the results of which a decision will be made on continuation of the series. The first serial corvette of this project "Provorny" was launched in September 2019 and is now preparing for mooring tests (it is equipped, like the head corvette, with Kolomna diesel engines). The rest of the contracted ships of the project 20385 are still in limbo, awaiting the results of the service and combat activities of the "Thundering". In May 2015, representatives of the manufacturing plant (PJSC Shipyard Severnaya Verf) even announced that project 20385 was being phased out due to problems with imported components, and only two ships (“Thundering” and “Provorny”) would be built on it with the replacement of foreign components. on domestic, and the rest will be built according to the modernized project 20380. How it will actually be, let's see. By the way, the Algerian corvette will be equipped with a German MTU diesel engine, not a Kolomna one (apparently, the Algerians know something). All this became the reason for replacing the Kolomna DDA-20386 with a more reliable and lighter (but also more expensive) Yaroslavl gas turbine unit KGA MA12000 (based on the new M3FR GTE engine) in the promising project 90 Almaz Central Design Bureau. So, summing up a certain result, we can say that the corvettes of the project 20385 fell the next victim of the sanctions war between the Russian Federation and the collective West.

I have to put an end to this for now. To be continued ... There we will talk about the project 20386 corvettes.
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  1. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
    Sapsan136 (Sapsan136) 23 March 2021 10: 43
    +7
    Everything in the author's head was confused, people, horses.
    1) There is nothing to substitute for import in the corvettes 20380, there are initially installed domestic engines, and with German engines they planned to build corvettes 20385, one of which has already become part of the Russian Pacific Fleet, and the second is about to enter. The corvettes that are being built for the Russian Black Sea Fleet belong to the project 20380 and there is nothing to substitute for import.

    2) There are many relatively strong fleets in Africa, one of them is the South African fleet, with 4 Meco A200 SAN frigates and three diesel submarines of the 209/1400 type. The Egyptian fleet includes a heavy frigate, and in fact a Fremm-class destroyer, 2 Mistral-class UDC, two new diesel submarines of the 209/1400 type, not counting junk and trifles, such as the former American Knox and Oliver Perry. The Moroccan fleet, which in fact has a Fremm-class destroyer ...

    3) As for the fact that in the west type 20380 corvettes are called frigates, they are not frigates, but light frigates, in fact an analogue of French Lafayette-type light frigates. But against a destroyer, or something similar to a destroyer, such as a heavy frigate of the Fremm type, corvettes 20380 will no longer pull. Corvette 20380 takes on board only 12 medium-range air defense missiles, and Fremm, even in the export version received by Egypt, has 24 medium-range air defense missiles, while real destroyers have even more ammunition. For example, the Dutch destroyer (heavy frigate, based on the American destroyers Arlee Burke), 7 provinces, has 40 launchers for medium and long-range air defense missiles against only 12 medium-range air defense missiles for corvette 20380, while the American Arleigh Burke takes on board up to 74 SM-3 missiles, and this is a modern analogue of the Soviet universal air defense missile Volna, which the sailors considered their main armament, since the range then made it possible to hit both aircraft and ships and the reaction time was higher than that of the Termit anti-ship missile system ... So the corvette 20380 will be able to fight on equal terms with light frigates, such as the French Lafayette, but with a destroyer, or a heavy frigate, it is no longer ... they have different weight categories and ammunition.

    4) The Black Sea Fleet of the Russian Federation today not only protects the interests of the Russian Federation in the Black Sea and Crimea, but also fights in Syria, so no sane person will weaken it today. Therefore, now at the Black Sea Fleet of the Russian Federation from the Baltic there are several BDK type 775 under the cover of the corvette 20380. Probably these BDKs will remain there, and the Baltic Fleet will receive new UDCs of the type Vladimir Andreev, which are no longer built on the basis of Soviet BDK of the Tapir type, but on the basis UDC type Rotterdam. That is why there is no information from the Russian authorities about the sale of corvettes 20380 to Algeria. They may want it and they want it, but there is no information about the beginning of the construction of these ships. Warships are expensive, and Nigeria, for example, has no money even to repair the only Meco 360-class frigate. So they write fairy tales for internal use. Well, the mattress makers picked up the fable, once again shouting that the Russian Federation, without Ukraine, allegedly could not build ships. But for the construction of corvettes 20380, no import substitution is needed, and export corvettes have two ZRAK Palma installations as air defense, and not Redoubt, and corvettes for the Russian Black Sea Fleet are built with Redoubt.
    1. wolf46 Offline wolf46
      wolf46 23 March 2021 11: 39
      +3
      Over the past 10 years, Algeria has received at least 1 DKVD (Italy), 2 frigates (Germany) and 3 corvettes (China). What have other African countries to do with it?
      Sending ships of the Baltic Fleet (to the Black Sea) is a supply operation, not the transfer of the BDK to the Black Sea.
      1. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
        Sapsan136 (Sapsan136) 23 March 2021 11: 46
        +5
        What is behind the dispatch of the large landing craft from the Baltic, we do not know, let's start with this. Only the high command knows about it. I only assumed the transfer of these ships to the Black Sea Fleet, since to drive ships from the Baltic to Syria is much farther than from the Black Sea, and they love money. ... 2 frigates from Germany, these are light frigates Meco-200, South Africa has 4 such frigates, and the rest is either retired old stuff from Italy, or patrol boats from China. So this does not pull the strongest fleet in Africa.
    2. Volkonsky Offline Volkonsky
      Volkonsky (Vladimir) 23 March 2021 14: 18
      -6
      I see that Sapsan has an even bigger mess in his head than he suspects the author. If he has knowledge, it is extremely outdated and gleaned from the tyrnet. I don't even want to argue!
      1) Let's start with the fact that in my text there is not a word that import substitution affected the 20380 project. Project 20385 fell victim to import substitution.
      2) Algeria has nothing to do with South Africa! There are no points of confrontation. Where is South Africa and where is Algeria? In 4 days of transition. Comparing their navies is like comparing the Australian and Canadian navies. Egyptian Mistrals versus Algerian Tigers - not even funny. Moroccan Fremm against 6 20382 is also not a warrior.
      3) Air defense systems are not used against ships, this requires anti-ship missile systems. The Tiger will not fight with Arlie Burke, again - not at all! Where is the Netherlands and where is Algeria?
      4) For export Tigers are not Palms, but ZRAK Kashtan-M, this is an export version of Kortik-M, which is equipped with the head corvette of the Guarding series. BDK go to SAR, the construction of our new UDC will end in five years. Again, all past the checkout.
      5) This is the first text in a series of 3 texts about corvettes. In the 3rd you will find out how the Algerian project ended. Coming out this week.
      1. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
        Sapsan136 (Sapsan136) 23 March 2021 15: 37
        +4
        1) You undertook to write for the corvettes 20380, which are now being built for the Black Sea Fleet of the Russian Federation and will allegedly be sold to Algeria, to the detriment of the combat capability of the Black Sea Fleet of the Russian Federation, so why did you bring project 20385 corvettes here ?! I wanted to repeat on this resource the slop that the Yankees pour to the Russian Federation ?!

        2) I wrote not about the war between South Africa and Algeria, but that your statement that Algeria, having received corvettes from the Russian Federation, will have the strongest fleet in Africa, is nonsense, there are already several very strong ones today, by local standards fleets.

        3) In 2008, the MRK Mirage of the Black Sea Fleet of the Russian Federation fired an anti-aircraft missile SAM OSA at a Georgian boat, so do not write nonsense. These are things that sailors and the military understand, but not like you, writers. People like you need to read more and not the tabloid press. Honor at least Kofman, although he is not an admiral, but an engineer and his articles are smarter than yours.

        4) Well, let's say there are Chestnuts, not Palms, where is information from Russian sources that such ships are generally being built and something is worth on them ?! The link to the grandmother from Algeria and British scientists does not work, this is not authority. In the Baltic there is a large landing craft not only of the 775 project, so what the gentlemen admirals decided there, they certainly did not report to you, but I just made a guess ...

        5) Stop already writing stupid articles based on rumors and yellow press from Algeria and the USA! Find at least one respected source from the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, and then write.
        1. Volkonsky Offline Volkonsky
          Volkonsky (Vladimir) 23 March 2021 20: 11
          -2
          I do not understand, but why are we already on "you"? I spoke to you. This time!
          What should I write or not write about, I'll figure it out myself, I don't need your advice! The text was about corvettes. This is only the first part of it. And that's two!
          I have not a word about the Osa air defense system. That's three! From your inscriptions here I see that you are still the special ... sofa. If we are talking about the war 08.08.08/XNUMX/XNUMX, then here is the report of the commander of the MRK Mirage to the flagship:

          Of the five targets, one is destroyed, one is damaged, and three are out of action. Missile consumption: two anti-ship missiles, one anti-aircraft missile, no casualties among personnel. There is no damage to the ship "

          Can you read? Two anti-ship missiles Malachite, one missile defense system.
          The results of the missile hit: At 18.39:XNUMX, one of the Russian ships fired an anti-aircraft missile from the Osa-M air defense system, which fell between the boats. Conclusion: the target is not hit, the missile defense system is not intended for this.
          Then, at 18.41, the Mirage MRK from a distance of 25 km fired two Malakhit cruise missiles at the Kombatant-2 missile boat. As a result of being hit by both missiles, the boat quickly sank (disappeared from the radar screen after a large short-term illumination left by the target's explosion). The sinking of the boat is known only from the report of the Russian sailors, the place of the alleged defeat of the target was not examined. You will make the conclusions yourself.
          And fourthly, with the Palms you have already shown your level of competence, about the BDK I did not understand at all, what do they have to do with it? They go to SAR. The lively one accompanies them. What does the Black Sea Fleet have to do with it? Everything that I know about the Algerian project will be stated in the third text.
          And the last thing: You don’t need to tell me what to do, then I won’t tell you where to go!
          1. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
            Sapsan136 (Sapsan136) 23 March 2021 20: 15
            +2
            You watched the video about that fight ?! I did not look, since I wrote nonsense that anti-aircraft missiles are not used to destroy surface ships, because that anti-aircraft missile was fired at a Georgian boat, not an aircraft. Yes, you did not understand a lot of things, not your level of education.
            1. Volkonsky Offline Volkonsky
              Volkonsky (Vladimir) 23 March 2021 20: 21
              -3
              once again, uncle, read the text, find there at least one mention of the Osa-M air defense system. On the results of firing at boats, I gave a report from the commander of the RTO. The boat was hit by anti-ship missiles, the missile defense system fell into the sea between the boats, if you determine the class of missiles on TV, then you should immediately go to the doctor
              1. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
                Sapsan136 (Sapsan136) 23 March 2021 20: 25
                +2
                You criticized what I wrote about the Volna air defense system, when I compared the ammunition of medium-range anti-aircraft missiles in a corvette, or a light NATO-qualified frigate of the 20380 type and a heavy frigate of the Fremm type, a heavy frigate of the 7 provinces type and an Arley Burke-type destroyer, you wrote, that a corvette of type 20380 can fight on equal terms with a destroyer, and this is nonsense. The missile defense system that fell into the sea was not fired by the Mirage, but by the MRK accompanying it, the Mirage launched its missile defense system at the boat. You heard the ringing, but did not understand where he is.
          2. Alexey Sergeev Offline Alexey Sergeev
            Alexey Sergeev (Alexey Sergeev) 25 March 2021 23: 18
            +1
            SAM is not intended for this.

            Modern missiles with ARL seeker are confidently capable of hitting surface targets. Examples include Aster and SM-6, and even beyond the horizon.
            And the ancient (by design) rocket Osa RK has guidance.
      2. Solomon Offline Solomon
        Solomon (alexey salomon) 26 March 2021 16: 02
        0
        Where does Sapsan say that Algeria is going to fight with South Africa ?! He just compared the navy of one country to another ...
    3. Evgeny Andriyanov (Evgeny Andriyanov) 25 March 2021 20: 59
      0
      You are a little confused 12 cells in project 20380 and armament of 60 missiles in these cells, in project 20385 - 16 cells
  2. Dukhskrepny Offline Dukhskrepny
    Dukhskrepny (Vasya) 23 March 2021 11: 50
    -2
    You fell a victim in a fatal struggle, selfless love for capital
    1. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
      Sapsan136 (Sapsan136) 23 March 2021 11: 58
      +4
      There is no official data on the sale of corvettes to Algeria. There is no data on the construction of export corvettes. There is nothing to substitute for import in corvettes 20380, everything is domestic. So, with a high degree of probability, this is just a fake. Especially amused at the expense of secrecy. So the sale of frigates 11356 to India is no secret, and the sale of corvettes to Algeria is a secret. The article gives off cannabis, to say the least. This is from a series of humarines about British scientists.
      1. The comment was deleted.
        1. The comment was deleted.
      2. Ulysses Offline Ulysses
        Ulysses (Alexey) 23 March 2021 23: 42
        +5
        There is no official data on the sale of corvettes to Algeria. There is no data on the construction of export corvettes... There is nothing to substitute for import in corvettes 20380, everything is domestic. So, with a high degree of probability, this is just a fake.

        The whole heavyweight construction of Mr. Volkonsky, as I understand it, is based on this:

        According to Military Watch, Algeria will buy three Guardian-class corvettes for its Navy. The publication, having announced the conclusion of the contract, does not inform about the sources of this information.

        Move on..

        This is reported by the Military Watch (USA), referring to information Algerian news agencies.

        And that's all. smile

        PS Nothing else anywhere.
        But circles in the water have been going on since last autumn.
        "Help, sold everything."
        1. Volkonsky Offline Volkonsky
          Volkonsky (Vladimir) 24 March 2021 00: 34
          -4
          https://www.menadefense.net/algerie/lalgerie-a-t-elle-commandee-des-corvettes-tigre/
          Read it yourself! Translate, draw conclusions. I drew my own conclusions. They are in the 3rd text.
          1. Volder Offline Volder
            Volder 25 March 2021 14: 45
            +3
            Quote: Volkonsky
            https://www.menadefense.net/algerie/lalgerie-a-t-elle-commandee-des-corvettes-tigre/
            Translate, draw conclusions.

            This source does not say anything about the corvettes "Zealous" and "Strict". The shipyard is building the Tiger ships, possibly they are intended for Algeria. However, it is far from a fact that these hulls are the Zealous and Strogy corvettes. The author does not admit that ships are being built for Algeria in parallel. Sorry, but this is not serious analytics ...
            1. Volkonsky Offline Volkonsky
              Volkonsky (Vladimir) 25 March 2021 15: 16
              -3
              unlike you, I operate off. data, open the Severnaya Verf Shipyard and see what they are building now - the Tigers are not there. There are three corvettes - Mercury, Zealous and Strict - serial numbers 1007,1008, 1009. So who has frivolous analytics here?
              1. Volder Offline Volder
                Volder 25 March 2021 21: 57
                +2
                It should be borne in mind here that the project 20382 Tiger corvette is an export version of the 20380 project. The director of the Severnaya Verf plant in September 2018 did not confirm the construction of corvettes for the Algerian Navy. Here is an excerpt from the interview:

                Journalist: - Is the export promotion of the project 20382 "Tiger" corvette?
                Igor Ponomarev: - Almaz and I have made export passports and advertising passports. The enterprise is ready to build corvettes 20380 and frigates 11356 for a foreign customer, there will be orders - we will build.

                As for the Algerian primary source, there are just assumptions of journalists and a reference to some unknown "source from the Algerian Navy." In general - rumors and speculation, sucked from the finger. Wishful thinking. Moreover, the Algerian Ministry of Defense has never confirmed the information about the corvettes 20380 allegedly ordered in Russia. There is no confirmation from the Russian Ministry of Defense, the Navy and Severnaya Verf either.
                Frivolous analytics is a blind faith in journalistic "ducks".
          2. Solomon Offline Solomon
            Solomon (alexey salomon) 26 March 2021 16: 04
            0
            Disappointed ...
  3. 123 Offline 123
    123 (123) 24 March 2021 00: 02
    +1
    I looked at the situation this way and that, I see nothing terrible. If the ships were laid down 5 years ago, surely since then many changes have been made to the design and they are decently different from those laid down now. These ships probably do not differ from the first four in equipment and armament. I think at least new air defenses are already being put on something else. Corvette "Perfect", built for the Pacific Fleet, was also laid down in 2015, missile armament "Uranus" and no calibers. And on the building for the Black Sea Fleet "Karakurt" they are. It turns out that the armament of RTOs is better than that of corvettes.
    Alteration for new weapons is not possible or expensive. It could well have made a decision to sell the ships somewhat "morally obsolete" during the long-term construction, and new ones will be laid for the Black Sea Fleet. 20385 or enhanced 20380.
    1. Volkonsky Offline Volkonsky
      Volkonsky (Vladimir) 24 March 2021 00: 49
      -2
      As always, Comrade 123 is looking at the root. I will not be ahead of the text output, but all the i's will be dotted in the 3rd. In the second, we will review the project 2. This is just one text, I had to break it into three parts for readability. I will only say that, starting from the 20386nd building, some changes have been made to the project. The Kortik-M air defense missile system has been replaced with a new medium-range Redoubt air defense system with vertical launch systems, and from the 2th it is planned to replace the Uran anti-ship complex with Onyx or Caliber, also with UVP. Zealous and Strict were the 8th and 7th corps. It's always nice to talk to an intelligent person. Here, besides you, 8, there is also a wolf123 and a bear rummaging around in the subject. The rest are all trying to prove something to someone when the task is worth understanding. But they are the cleverest. How I got sick of these couch xperds
      1. 123 Offline 123
        123 (123) 24 March 2021 11: 50
        -1
        Let's wait for the next part, I wonder what has changed in the armament. hi
    2. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
      Sapsan136 (Sapsan136) 24 March 2021 07: 52
      +2
      If we take the strike complex, then yes, but the corvette 20380 is a universal boat, it has not only anti-ship missiles, but also missiles and anti-aircraft missiles, and Karakurt does not have protection against submarines, and the air defense on it, to put it mildly, is weak, and on the first ships of the series, so none at all, only 30 mm submachine guns. This is not enough even to fight off an attack from a pair of helicopters.
      1. 123 Offline 123
        123 (123) 24 March 2021 11: 48
        0
        You probably did not quite understand me correctly. I'm not saying that Karakurt is better than 20380 corvettes and corvettes are not needed. They have different displacement and armament on corvettes can be placed more.
        I meant that the hulls of these two corvettes were laid 5 years ago and they practically do not differ from the first corvettes 20 years ago. Since then, something has changed. The military-industrial complex is not standing still, weapons and equipment are changing. If these ships are now adopted with 20-year-old armament, how useful will they be in 20-30 years? And the installation of the latest weapons on them is not possible, the same calibers cannot be put there. Air defense and anti-aircraft missile systems differ from modern ones, if you look at the characteristics, there in the names, for example of hydroacoustic complexes, the letters "M" appeared in the names, now it is not "Anapa" and "Minotaur", but "Anapa-M" "Minotavr-M" , maybe there is something newer. In general, the armament of these particular ships is morally obsolete. In my opinion, it is quite a reasonable decision to sell them, for the same money you can build new corvettes, with weapons corresponding to modern requirements. I repeat hi

        It could well have made the decision to sell the ships somewhat "obsolete" during the long-term construction, and new ones will be laid for the Black Sea Fleet. 20385 or enhanced 20380.
        1. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
          Sapsan136 (Sapsan136) 24 March 2021 13: 57
          +3
          If we sell these corvettes abroad, we will get new ones again in 7 years and they will become obsolete again, and what now, like Ukrainians, are we going to switch to rubber boats ?! The Black Sea Fleet of the Russian Federation is sitting with a bare bottom, there are only 3 new frigates, and this is for the entire Black and Mediterranean Seas and for Syria ... Don't you think that the Black Sea Fleet needs to be strengthened yesterday, and you don’t want to give anything there even today ?! On the corvettes 20380 are all the same anti-ship missiles Uranus, which are installed on new ships, and the new electronic warfare systems, according to rumors, are dubious happiness, because the systems are still raw and when they are finished it is still a question, and the old ones were brought to mind and did not do a bad job with the assigned tasks, and they are not that old, they were brought to mind only a few years ago .... Well, to install Calibers, you need to completely abandon 20380 and even more so from the frankly unsuccessful 20386 and completely switch to 20385. Well, if we talk about SAC, then at 20386 it is worse than on the oldest 20380 and there is no point at all in this trough
          1. 123 Offline 123
            123 (123) 24 March 2021 15: 00
            +1
            If we sell these corvettes abroad, we will get new ones again in 7 years and they will become obsolete again, and what now, like Ukrainians, will we switch to rubber boats ?!

            First, why 7 years? Production is better established than before. The construction time will be shorter. Project 20380 is somewhat reminiscent of the Superjet. This is the first post-Soviet project. At the initial stage, mistakes and shortcomings are inevitable. What they can build now is more perfect than what they have.
            Secondly, the body was laid down 7 years ago, according to its characteristics, in fact, corresponds to the age of 20. It's like buying a cruiser "Ukraine", finishing construction in five years and considering it a modern ship.
            These corvettes are in need of modernization at the time of transfer to the fleet.

            The Black Sea Fleet of the Russian Federation is sitting with a bare bottom, there are only 3 new frigates, and this is for the entire Black and Mediterranean Seas and for Syria ... Don't you think that the Black Sea Fleet needs to be strengthened yesterday, and you don’t want to give anything there even today ?!

            I "want to give there" a modern ship, with the latest weapons, which have characteristics that are superior to those of potential opponents, and not just "ship 1 piece".

            On the corvettes 20380 are all the same anti-ship missiles Uranus, which are installed on new ships, and the new electronic warfare systems, according to rumors, are dubious happiness, because the systems are still raw and when they are finished it is still a question, and the old ones were brought to mind and did not do a bad job with the assigned tasks, and they are not that old, they were brought to mind only a few years ago ...

            Quite right, they are put on. Does it bother you that on ships of smaller displacement, weapons are installed much better in terms of characteristics? On what modern ships Uranus is still being installed "is not entirely clear. Do you mean the modernization of the BOD? But there they are installed as a less expensive addition to the Caliber."
            I can't tell you anything about electronic warfare systems, there are no publicly available characteristics, I don't see any point in discussing rumors and speculation. I told you about anti-submarine weapons and air defense.

            Well, in order to install Calibers, you need to completely abandon 20380

            It is not necessary, it is enough to make changes to the design before the start of construction. Although you may be right. Probably you should go to 20385. It's more a matter of cost.

            It is too early to judge about 20386. The project is new, for sure a lot of cones will be stuffed on it. If it does not go into a large series, it doesn't matter, the developments will be used for new ones. But the development of the fleet is necessary, if we do not develop anything new, we will lag behind forever. It has a whiter, more perfect combined gas turbine plant with "partial electromotion". On it, it will be tested and most likely introduced into new projects. As for modularity ... many people hate it, but you must agree that if on the same 20380 it was possible to simply replace containers with "Uranus" with a container with "Caliber" it would solve many problems.
            In general, life will show what will come of it. hi
            1. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
              Sapsan136 (Sapsan136) 24 March 2021 15: 12
              +3
              Because all 20380 corvettes were built for 6 - 7 years, no less. That's when you will, then speak. In short, if tomorrow we will fight with what will we become, with your promises, or will you go straight to the wall, for undermining the country's defenses ?! Promising does not mean getting married ... It's time to ask the prosecutor's office for idle chatter, otherwise the promissed ones have not been divorced, but as to the matter, everything is in the bushes ... Such tongue-tricking is forgivable for a not clever woman in the kitchen, her demand is short , cooked cabbage soup, put the child to bed and okay ... Well, give up completely from 20380 and 20386 and Uranium anti-ship missiles, what's the problem ?! And MRK corvettes are not a substitute, these ships are up to the first plane, or enemy submarines and that's it, to the bottom ... It's too late to judge by 20386, the money was spent on the trough and the money is big, and the armament is again the anti-ship missiles Uranus and GAS from the Roman galley from the time of Caesar. ..And at 20380 you can replace Uraniums with Calibers, just instead of 8 Uraniums there will be 6 Calibers, or 6 Onyxes, in the same deck containers ... but they don't ...
              1. 123 Offline 123
                123 (123) 24 March 2021 15: 41
                +2
                Because all 20380 corvettes were built for 6 - 7 years, no less.

                "Hero of the Russian Federation Aldar Tsydenzhapov", laid down on July 22.07.2015, 25.12.2020, handed over to the customer on 5/XNUMX/XNUMX. It turns out XNUMX years, and this is with the deployment of production in the Far East. I believe the construction time may be even shorter.

                In short, if tomorrow we will fight with what will we become, with your promises, or will you go straight to the wall, for undermining the country's defenses ?!

                How hot you are laughing And if the war is after tomorrow? Then to kick you on the yard? After all, they will go into battle with outdated weapons. Before the Great Patriotic War, there were also a lot of tanks in pieces.

                Well, give up completely from 20380 and 20386 and Uranium anti-ship missiles, what's the problem ?!

                Why give up Uranus? As a cheaper addition to the "Caliber" it will still serve itself well. But as an addition, not the main weapon. where you can use a pistol, it is not necessary to shoot from a sniper rifle. Each weapon has its own purpose and characteristics.

                Why refuse 20380? Let what is already there serve. New ones must be made with Calibers. What does 20386 have to do with it?

                And MRK corvettes are not a replacement, these ships are up to the first plane, or enemy submarines and that's it, to the bottom ..

                And who says that this is equivalent protection? As for the air defense, you can see its characteristics and what is installed on the first corvettes. Are you boldly going to sea for airplanes with this?

                It's too late to judge by 20386, the money was spent on the trough and the money is big, and the armament is again the anti-ship missiles Uranus and GAS from the Roman galley from the time of Caesar ...

                How interesting. You feel sorry for him, but no money for 20380. Is the performance better at 20380?
                Since finances have begun to worry you, they will teach you more for the sale of 2 corvettes than from our Navy.

                And at 20380 you can replace Uraniums with Calibers, just instead of 8 Uraniums there will be 6 Calibers, or 6 Onyxes, in the same deck containers ... but they don't ...

                Are you seriously? belay
                This is Uranus.



                This is Caliber



                Where do you plan to insert "containers with calibers"? by the way, they are not in 6 but in 8 pieces. hi
                1. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
                  Sapsan136 (Sapsan136) 24 March 2021 15: 56
                  +4

                  Tsydenzhapov was quickly completed for political reasons, but 1 ship is not a series, and 5 years for the construction of a corvette is a lot. What are you suggesting to the Black Sea Fleet for another 5 years to sit with a bare ass ?! If tomorrow is a war, like me, will pay with their lives for your empty promises, but before going to die at the front, we will ask you - Why are there no weapons and ships ?! Calling corvettes 20380 obsolete you can not offer anything better, your 20386, even against the background of 20380, sucks, especially its GUS. Yes, despite the fact that there are no calibers for 20386, it is not universal, there are no modules for it and it cannot take all the modules on board, but it stands as a full-fledged frigate 22350. Construction of 20386 is sabotage. The best thing that can be done with it is to sell it to Algeria, let them drown on it, if that ... The Navy is not a commercial office to get loot from it, and since the loot is higher than defense capability, then in case of war, the Russian army goes home , and the merchants are going to fight, we will be waiting for you at home, with a victory. Maybe you will tear everyone apart without equipment ... let's take a look at your master class ... And then with someone else's hands, a lot of smart people will rake in the heat. You are all so smart that you decided to sit behind our backs. Here is a diagram of the installation of weapons on 20380,2 installations of 4 Uranium missiles in deck containers. In their place, you can put 2 to 3 missiles Caliber, or Onyx.
                  1. 123 Offline 123
                    123 (123) 24 March 2021 16: 49
                    +2
                    Tsydenzhapov was quickly completed for political reasons, but 1 ship is not a series, and 5 years for the construction of a corvette is a lot. What are you suggesting to the Black Sea Fleet for another 5 years to sit with a bare ass?

                    Am I against it? You can build faster. But 5 is not 6-7 years old. What does politically motivated mean? The next one, the corvette "Sharp", will be launched next year.
                    I don’t propose anything to the Black Sea Fleet, they will use what they have. 2 corvettes with "Uranus" will not make the weather, NATO out of grief will not flood its fleet.

                    If tomorrow is a war, like me, will pay with their lives for your empty promises, but before going to die at the front, we will ask you - Why are there no weapons and ships ?!

                    Are you a generalist? And do you serve in the navy? So maybe you shouldn't ask me, but go and start building ships? You know how to do everything.

                    Calling corvettes 20380 obsolete you can not offer anything better, your 20386, even against the background of 20380, sucks, especially its GUS.

                    Do you think that for 20 years it has not become outdated in the least? Let's build unchanged for another 20 years? Why can't I? 20385 or upgraded 20380.
                    I don't want to argue about 20386, consider it as you please. Life will show that it will come of them. Without a series, its cost will not decrease, piece ships are always more expensive.

                    Building 20386 is sabotage. The best thing to do with it is to sell it to Algeria, let them drown on it, if anything ...

                    Why so? belay It doesn't matter to you what characteristics the ship has. The ship is one piece and that's it. Why is it worse so much worse than 20380 that you don't feel sorry for it?

                    The Navy is not a commercial office in order to get loot from it, and since the loot is higher than defense capability, then in the event of a war, the Russian army goes home, and the merchants go to war, we will wait for you at home, with a victory.

                    Why then did you run up against the cost? You don’t want to sell one ship, you want another. Why are you sticking with your whims? Decide what you want already. And in general, maybe it's time for you to retire? overworked, spoiled nerves. think that on your shoulders the defense of the country is kept.

                    Maybe you will tear everyone apart without equipment ... let's take a look at your master class ... And then with someone else's hands, a lot of smart people will rake in the heat.

                    If you don't care what technique, maybe a sailboat will suit you? After all, it makes no difference to you, if only it was.

                    Here is a diagram of the installation of weapons for 20380,2 installations of 4 Uranus missiles in deck containers. In their place, you can put 2 to 3 missiles Caliber, or Onyx.

                    Where is the diagram? request
                    1. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
                      Sapsan136 (Sapsan136) 24 March 2021 17: 03
                      +3
                      So look at the picture, you can clearly see how and where the armament on 20380 is installed, just instead of 2 by 4 Uranus, you can put 2 by 3 Caliber ... You think that the sailboat will come down to us, building 20386 with antediluvian GAS and not universal, according the price of 22350 ... Well, because 20386 at a cost like 22350 is worse than 22380, which for this money you can build at least 2, instead of 1. Do you know how to read ?! I already wrote to you 3 times that 20380 is a station wagon, but 20386 is not, since it cannot take all the modules on board right away, and there are no modules themselves, and the GAS is worse by 20386 than by 20380 ... Mr. good, the whole difference between Tsydenzhapov and Zealous, which you so stubbornly call outdated, in the mast and electronic warfare that on Tsydenzhapov stand from 20385, but the mast is useless, this is not a weapon, and the electronic warfare on Tsydenzhapov is not brought to mind and its combat effectiveness is now in question, while on Retive is electronic warfare that was brought to mind only about 3 years ago ... Do you seriously think that the electronic warfare that was brought to a full operational state only 3 years ago is already outdated ?! You're not funny at yourself ?! In other words, the Black Sea Fleet you propose to go on Soviet ships ... do you think they are better than Zealous ?! Let's wait until Rezkiy is included in the fleet, otherwise the Kazan nuclear submarine was promised to be transferred to the fleet last year, but not even one of them has been transferred yet ...
                      1. 123 Offline 123
                        123 (123) 24 March 2021 18: 06
                        0
                        So look at the picture, you can clearly see how and where the 20380 armament is installed, just instead of 2 by 4 Uranus, you can put 2 by 3 Caliber ..

                        Look at the picture yourself. Roughly speaking, the length of "Uranus" is 4 m, "Caliber", depending on the modification, up to 8 m (there is a universal launcher), its dimensions are even larger. Take another look at your picture. there are such "lattices" visible. It's not for beauty, it's ventilation, the engine is from below. so where are you going to put the calibers? Hang on the sides?

                        Do you think that the sailboat will come down to us, building 20386 with an antediluvian GAS and not a universal one, at a price of 22350 ..

                        Listen, you got the GAS from your antediluvian, let's see the name of the characteristics, compare the capabilities of ships in anti-submarine defense.

                        Well, because 20386 at a cost like 22350 is worse than 22380, which for this money you can build at least 2, instead of 1. Do you know how to read ?!

                        How much can you repeat? For piece and serial ships, the cost is very different. For example, the price of Armata without a series goes off scale, for planes it is the same. So everywhere, the more the series the less the price.

                        Do you know how to read ?! I already wrote to you 3 times that 20380 is a station wagon, but 20386 is not, since it cannot take all the modules on board right away, and there are no modules themselves, and the GAS is worse by 20386 than by 20380 ..

                        Where did the modules come from?

                        Mr. good, the whole difference between Tsydenzhapov and Retiv, which you so stubbornly call outdated, in the mast and electronic warfare that on Tsydenzhapov cost from 20385, but from the mast to zero sense, this is not a weapon, but the electronic warfare on Tsydenzhapov is not brought to mind and its combat capability is now a question, while on Retive there is electronic warfare that was brought to mind only 3 years ago ... Do you seriously think that the electronic warfare that was brought to a full operational state only 3 years ago is already outdated ?! You're not funny at yourself ?!

                        Is that all? Does it have "Gauges" on it? It’s funny for me to read arguments about electronic warfare. Are there characteristics? Or was it just someone who said it?

                        In other words, the Black Sea Fleet you propose to go on Soviet ships ... do you think they are better than Zealous ?! Let's wait until Rezkiy is included in the fleet, otherwise the Kazan nuclear submarine was promised to be transferred to the fleet last year, but not even one of them has been transferred yet ...

                        In other words, I propose that the Black Sea Fleet receives ships with the latest weapons.
                        With the pace of construction, this is not for me. Not satisfied: Recruitment for shipbuilders is open. Can you do it faster? Do it.
                      2. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
                        Sapsan136 (Sapsan136) 24 March 2021 22: 12
                        +3
                        It was not me who got together, it was in the project. Yes, Caliber and Onyx are heavier than Uraniums, so you can install them with 6, instead of 8 Uraniums, this roughly equalizes the weight. Before arguing, they would find the GAS themselves and compare. At 20380 there is GAS ZARYA-2, and at 20386 the more antediluvian GAS MG-335M. It's not about the serial production, it's about the size, the expensive modules that can't be taken on board all at the same time, the specialists serving these modules, including those who will hang around with them on the shore, because the ship will not be able to take all of them on board. ... In more expensive motors. And most importantly, it is foolish to build such a large and expensive non-universal ship, to the detriment of universal ships. There are no calibers for 20386, you can take a module with 4 Caliber missiles, but only instead of a helicopter, and without a helicopter today, a combat ship is not a modern ship, with very limited capabilities. The point is to give you characteristics, especially since this is a new technique and some of the data is secret, if you haven't even looked at the GUS ?! I wrote to you that the electronic warfare that you call the old one was brought to full functionality only 3 years ago, what is now at 20385 and later laid down at 20380, this is a new electronic warfare, which is still raw. So the old one is more reliable, and in battle the reliability of the weapon is the most important thing. And the equipment cannot become outdated in just 3 years. ... Well, if you cannot provide a higher rate of construction, then do not write nonsense, since the ships are needed now, and not someday, as you suggest, and while your ships are being built, perhaps something more modern will appear and you will start again scream that everything that is already out of date
                      3. 123 Offline 123
                        123 (123) 24 March 2021 22: 31
                        -1
                        It was not me who got together, it was in the project. Yes, Caliber and Onyx are heavier than Uraniums, so you can install them with 6, instead of 8 Uraniums, this roughly equalizes the weight.

                        Onyxes in the same versatile launchers as the Calibers. The dimensions are the same. And there are no 2 of them, as a rule, their number is a multiple of 8.

                        I wrote to you that the electronic warfare that you call the old one was brought to full functionality only 3 years ago, what is now at 20385 and later laid down at 20380, this is a new electronic warfare, which is still raw. So the old one is more reliable, and in battle the reliability of the weapon is the most important thing. And the equipment cannot become outdated in just 3 years. ..

                        How raw? How efficient is it? Without characteristics, these are just words. There is nothing to compare.

                        Well, if you cannot provide a higher rate of construction, then do not write nonsense, since the ships are needed now, and not someday, as you suggest, and while your ships are being built, something more modern may appear and you will again start screaming that everything that is already outdated

                        Are you expecting a war since Monday? Who are we going to fight with and where?
                      4. Volkonsky Offline Volkonsky
                        Volkonsky (Vladimir) 25 March 2021 13: 40
                        -2
                        Comrade 123, aren't you tired of arguing with this stupid person yet? You are sending him to retire, but he has not finished school yet (figuratively, he is 30-35 years old, a jerk by our standards, he is not like in the navy, he did not serve in the army at all, he fights without getting off the couch, and so that the refrigerator was within sight). He is completely out of topic, from the word "absolutely". The text about 20386 has already been released -

                        https://topcor.ru/19137-cmkb-almaz-sozdalo-korabl-buduschego-chem-budet-prirastat-moguschestvo-flota-rf.html

                        There you can see all the characteristics of the project, except for the price (about the prices in the last text, but even there it is within tolerance, as for an experimental ship). Here this couch warrior, who cares about our defenses, has released a lot of relatively outdated 3S24 Uranus anti-ship missiles with their Kh35U anti-ship missiles, not knowing that they are not even being installed on the 20380 project (from the 8th corps, the UVP 3S14 for Caliber and Onyx, the same 4 Caliber installed on the project 20386).

                        At the same time, the armament of the dream corvette was kept at the level of the previous project 20385 (and it was the most armed in its class). The number of tactical strike missiles was reduced from eight to four (the UKSK 3S14 installed there is sharpened for the use of the entire family of sea-based missiles we have - from cruise "Caliber" to supersonic anti-ship "Onyx" and hypersonic "Zircons"). To do this, the ship had to be lengthened by another couple of meters (109 meters versus 106,3 meters on project 20385), and in order to avoid trim on the bow and loss of seaworthiness, they added a meter and a half on both sides, both from the bow and from the stern ...

                        This I quoted myself. His data is simply outdated. He finally is not in the subject. Even Vicki can't keep up. I used data for November 2020.
                        Regarding the GAS, about which this tovarisch shed so many crocodile tears.

                        The temporarily installed armament of the ship includes a containerized operational-tactical missile system ("Caliber-NK" for 4 missiles). A flexible extended towed antenna of an integrated underwater surveillance system with a launching device mounted on an integrated frame (GAS "Vignette)" is also temporarily installed on the ship. In addition, the ship provides for the possibility of receiving additional landing craft. To move them, standard movable platforms with universal keel blocks are used. A significant difference between project 20386 and previous projects of corvettes is the widespread use of robotic weapon systems and autonomous uninhabited systems. The introduction of the principle of robotization is associated with the trend developing in world practice to remove personnel from direct contact with the enemy. The ship is supposed to accommodate helicopter-type UAVs, unmanned underwater vehicles (UUVs), similar to those used on mine defense ships, as well as multi-purpose remotely controlled unmanned boats (BEC). It is possible to install other containerized weapons, for example, diving or providing for the deployment of troops. Until the development of the coastal storage system and the maintenance of removable weapons in technical readiness, these containers are supposed to be placed on board, transferring from ship to ship as necessary.

                        And regarding the helicopter, which this tovarisch was going to donate for the sake of Caliber

                        In addition, 20386 differ from their predecessors in integrated information and control systems of open architecture, new electronic weapons and the use of robotic systems (I have already said a little about them above). The helicopter is planned to be stored in an under-deck hangar equipped with a vertical helicopter lift, which frees up the upper deck for lifting and moving modular containers.

                        How tired of these stupid people who sit here instead of school!
                      5. 123 Offline 123
                        123 (123) 25 March 2021 13: 46
                        0
                        I do not consider myself smarter than others, which I recommend to others. laughing
                        People can have different points of view, perhaps it is based on outdated data or lack of awareness, and so on. That is why we are here and are conducting conversations to discuss this.
                        Thanks for the link, I will definitely look hi
                      6. Volkonsky Offline Volkonsky
                        Volkonsky (Vladimir) 25 March 2021 14: 19
                        -1
                        I also spoke to him politely at first, but when he abruptly switched to YOU, while showing complete incompetence, I sent him into the forest. These people are not trying to learn something here or to sort out together what they do not know or do not understand. They are here trying to score points in some competition for the best sofa analyst. As a rule, their knowledge is superficial, that this tovarisch in a dispute with me and proved, each time making mistakes in the performance characteristics and armament of products. They do not establish the truth, but try to win some kind of moral victory in every petty dispute, which only speaks of children's complexes and personal grievances that he did not experience. Many times I saw such couch warriors in real life, who prancing around in khakis and NATO ankle boots, I immediately understand that people in the army did not serve, they still play war games. I was in a real war, in the most hot spot, I am not drawn to camouflage and I do not want to shoot either. They have all the games of atamans-robbers or Germans and ours. I have not been drawn for a long time, because war is scary!
                      7. 123 Offline 123
                        123 (123) 26 March 2021 16: 32
                        0
                        We often start to speak not politely laughing temperament probably not Finnish what
                        I don't see any sense in the "set of glasses" request
                        As for this case, the person sees the situation somewhat differently, experiences, probably from here all the "emotions".
                        As for the war, I completely agree with you. I hope you have the wisdom to avoid it.
                        As for the ship itself, I see it as a stand for testing new technologies. how successful he will be, time will tell.
                        The modular weapons system is great, but there is a downside. The ship has a decent cruising range, which is good, but it also means that if you need to change equipment or weapons, it will be far from the base. It will not be possible to change quickly. Not a lot of ammunition, by the way, to replenish too. If they don't learn to do it right at sea from support ships.
                        In general, we will observe with interest how the project is developing and the concept of its application. Here is the fact that technical developments will be used in future projects, undoubtedly.
  • Volder Offline Volder
    Volder 25 March 2021 21: 12
    +2
    Quote: Vladimir Volkonsky
    In May 2015, representatives of PJSC Shipyard Severnaya Verf even announced that project 20385 was being phased out due to problems with imported components, only two ships would be built on it (Gremyashchiy and Provorny), and the rest would be built according to the modernized project 20380 ...

    Your data is out of date. In 2020, the Ministry of Defense signed contracts with PJSC Amur Shipyard for the construction of more four 20385. This was reported by the press service of the Ministry of Defense. Also, two additional corvettes 20385 will be built by PJSC Shipyard Severnaya Verf - the contract was signed at the Army-2020 forum.
    1. Volkonsky Offline Volkonsky
      Volkonsky (Vladimir) 25 March 2021 21: 46
      -2
      At the moment, 10 ships of this class have already been built (8 are in service, 2 are launched and are being prepared for mooring tests), 3 are under construction. Total 13. And for the construction of 16 corvettes, contracts have been signed between the RF Ministry of Defense and the Severnaya Verf Shipyard (St. Petersburg) and the ASZ (Komsomolsk-on-Amur). It turns out that as of the end of 2020, 29 units of the basic project 20380/20385 and its subsequent modifications were built and contracted, which makes this series of ships the largest series among the main classes of ships of the 4th generation of the Russian Navy.

      I know. I wrote about this above (see quote). Of the 16 contracted - 6 projects 20385. But everything will depend on diesel engines, how they will show themselves, if they fail again, they will rely on Rybinsk turbines
      1. Volder Offline Volder
        Volder 25 March 2021 22: 13
        +1
        Quote: Volkonsky
        So, summing up a certain result, we can say that the corvettes of the project 20385 fell another victim of the sanctions war between the Russian Federation and the collective West.

        These are your words in the article? In fact, the construction of corvettes 20385 no longer depends on what kind of engines there will be.
        1. Volkonsky Offline Volkonsky
          Volkonsky (Vladimir) 25 March 2021 22: 31
          -1
          yeah, it didn’t affect the 11356R frigates either, they sold them to India, and the corvettes were left without German diesels and the construction time was pushed to the right
          1. Volder Offline Volder
            Volder 25 March 2021 23: 34
            0
            It's just a shift to the right, and not much. The 20385 series will be continued, the engines have been replaced by import. You thicken the colors too much. And the fact that the 11356R was not completed for the Navy is more a blessing than a sadness. The frigates 11356R for the Black Sea Fleet became obsolete in terms of PLO and air defense long before the start of construction.
  • Gennady D. Offline Gennady D.
    Gennady D. (Gennady Dambiev) 27 March 2021 15: 43
    0
    the action of the Algerian fleet is limited to the Mediterranean Sea, why do they need a German diesel. In extreme cases, they can buy the engine from Germany, they are not under sanctions, and immediately install it at Severnaya Verf.
  • Alexander Konstantinovich 29 March 2021 19: 51
    0
    Gentlemen sofa analysts! (I do not call you comrades, because my comrades do not discuss military issues in the open press). Isn't it time to stop passing off your superficial knowledge and rumors obtained from insider sources, accompanied by a fair amount of fabrications, as sensational analytics? As the saying goes, God is God's, and Caesar's is Caesar's. Believe me, there is someone in the Ministry of Defense to deal with these issues, and I suggest leaving the private opinions of those "not indifferent" for kitchen feasts.
  • 2534 Offline 2534
    2534 April 9 2021 10: 59
    0
    it's not even the OPUS of the author, but just LAZY to do the job with high quality - "tyap-blooper" and "done"

    "purely for reference" - negotiations with Algeria on the corvette REALLY GREAT
    BUT - not at all according to the version "for the Navy", "Algerian 20380" even externally should have had significant differences (and photos of its model were put out on specialized forums)
    However, the Algerians PREFER MEKO