Erdogan's Decree: Hagia Sophia became a mosque


On July 10, the Turkish State Council decided that Hagia Sophia will change its official status - it will again turn from a museum into a mosque. Thus, the Council canceled the decree of the authorities of the country of November 24, 1934 on giving the temple museum status. This was reported by the Turkish agency Anadolu.


Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan signed the corresponding decree.

Earlier, the prospect of converting Hagia Sophia into a Muslim temple was concerned about public organizations and officials from France, Greece, the United States and Russia. On June 6, Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia Kirill noted that maintaining the status of a museum by the cathedral is important for Christians around the world - this could serve to strengthen harmony and peace between Christianity and Islam, as well as the successful development of cultural ties and relations between the Russian and Turkish peoples.

Saint Sophia Cathedral is one of the most visited tourist attractions of Istanbul. It was built by the Byzantine emperor Justinian in 532-537 in Constantinople (formerly the Byzantine name of Istanbul) - in this way the glory of the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire was immortalized. In 1453, the city was captured by the Ottomans, and the cathedral was converted into a mosque. In 1934, the government of Kemal Ataturk passed a decree according to which the status of a museum was given to St. Sophia Cathedral. In 1985, Hagia Sophia became a UNESCO World Heritage Site.

Turkish President Erdogan previously pointed out the need to re-make a mosque out of a majestic temple so that tourists can visit this cultural and historical monument without paying money. In Greece, the Turkish leader reacted very negatively to this idea, calling it an insult to both admirers of the Christian religion and the international community as a whole.
Photos used: Arild Vågen / wikipedia.org
Ctrl Enter

Noticed oshЫbku Highlight text and press. Ctrl + Enter

91 comment
Information

Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.
I have an account? Sign in

  1. 123 Offline
    123 (123) 10 July 2020 18: 25
    +3
    • 7
    • 4
    We are waiting for the stormy reaction of the world community.
    It’s time for the Greeks to remember that they are descendants of proud Romans; by the way, their church is not separated from the state.
    Local church leadership, how is it? Which sells thermoses? However, it doesn’t matter; she should immediately turn to the Ukrainian authorities. Surely the leaders of the Orthodox state are outraged, am they will then explain to Erdogan that he is wrong. yes
    1. Sergey Tokarev Offline
      Sergey Tokarev (Sergey Tokarev) 10 July 2020 21: 19
      0
      • 3
      • 3
      The Greeks can only remember the unconventional orientation of the Spartans ... and Odysseus and Hercules did not quarrel over a woman)))
      1. Binder Offline
        Binder (Miron) 10 July 2020 21: 35
        +5
        • 7
        • 2
        For Muslims, this orientation is much wider than for the Greeks. wassat
        1. Sergey Tokarev Offline
          Sergey Tokarev (Sergey Tokarev) 11 July 2020 03: 40
          -4
          • 1
          • 5
          Tell Kadyrov ...
          1. Binder Offline
            Binder (Miron) 11 July 2020 04: 29
            +4
            • 6
            • 2
            I will certainly tell you on occasion, although I think that he knows without me. yes
            1. Sergey Tokarev Offline
              Sergey Tokarev (Sergey Tokarev) 11 July 2020 04: 32
              -3
              • 1
              • 4
              And I think there will be a discovery for him ... I have not seen a march of pederasts in Muslim countries and in Chechnya in particular.
              1. Binder Offline
                Binder (Miron) 11 July 2020 04: 35
                +1
                • 4
                • 3
                And this, as with that gopher in the bushes - no processions are visible, but there are buggers. bully
            2. Bakht Offline
              Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 11 July 2020 09: 28
              +1
              • 3
              • 2
              About orientation. It seems to me that there were no Muslims in Sodom and Gomorrah ....
              1. 123 Offline
                123 (123) 11 July 2020 10: 21
                +4
                • 4
                • 0
                About orientation. It seems to me that there were no Muslims in Sodom and Gomorrah ....

                I will say more, it seems to me - at that time there were no Muslims at all.
              2. Tramp1812 Offline
                Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 11 July 2020 10: 51
                +1
                • 2
                • 1
                Quote: Bakht
                About orientation. It seems to me that there were no Muslims in Sodom and Gomorrah ....

                In those days, the Old Testament did not even have them in the project of conception. The meaning of the biblical parable about Sodom and Gomorrah is that Judaism is extremely hostile, to say the least, to non-traditional sexual orientation and drugs. Therefore, the horrors of the punishment of the heroes of this parable are described. Regarding the countries of Islam and the prevalence of non-traditional sexual orientation: there is nothing supernatural or even more national. There are objective reasons why this phenomenon is present.
                1. Not all citizens of Islamic countries can afford to marry due to the constraint. Moreover, their wealthier compatriots, according to the Qur'an, have four wives and any number of concubines. Not enough for everyone. In countries such as Yemen, the custom of killing first-born girls is still common. In China, by the way, too. This is where the roots of the phenomenon come from, by the way, bestiality too.
                2. Unconventional sexual orientation in Islamic countries is officially considered a shame. But for some reason, it does not concern relations with young boys.
                3. Each nation has its own traditions. There is a monograph by V. Panova and Bakhtin, "The Life of Muhammad", by the way, it is written very, very tolerant of Islam. There it is stated that the last wife of the prophet - Aisha married him at the age of five. This is a well-known fact. Nowadays in Europe this is called pedophilia. And punishable by criminal law. And in the countries of Islam to this day, the initial marriageable age of girls is from seven to 12 years.
                1. Bakht Offline
                  Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 11 July 2020 10: 59
                  +3
                  • 4
                  • 1
                  It’s just that the emphasis here is on Muslims. Therefore, I wrote what I wrote.
                  In all religions, homosexual relationships are not welcome (to say the least). In Judaism too. True, recently under the influence of all kinds of blue movements, even in Judaism, attempts have been made to justify homosexuality. True, with the caveat that homosexuals must be treated with love and understanding, but their example should not be followed.
                  How all this is realized in real life - you can always find examples of pros and cons. What happened in the Middle Ages in Europe is generally indescribable. And ancient Rome with its orgies in general overshadowed everything that was before and after.
                  ----
                  I don’t understand how the conversation about Hagia Sophia turned to homosexual relations ....
                  The translation of the conversation into the differences between Jews, Greeks, Muslims and others, in my understanding, is the most striking manifestation of xenophobia. The division of people into "ours" and "not ours." By God, B.A. Didenko was right in his definition of homo sapiens.
                  1. Tramp1812 Offline
                    Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 11 July 2020 17: 56
                    0
                    • 0
                    • 0
                    I don’t understand how the conversation about Hagia Sophia turned to homosexual relations ....

                    This is just the same explainable. They wanted to tease, this is by and large a transition to personalities. With the same success, and neither to the village, nor to the city, it was possible to tell about the same phenomenon among the personnel of the Navy of various countries that are on long journeys. Therefore, I expressed myself in the sense that individuals, including Slavs (Bosnians), professing Islam, or Turks, professing Christianity (Chuvashs) are no different in the context of non-traditional sexual relations. If homosexuality is more prevalent in Arab countries, it is only because of the smaller number of women per capita of the male population, so to speak. There was no such phenomenon in the Central Asian and Caucasian republics of the Soviet era.
              3. Binder Offline
                Binder (Miron) 11 July 2020 11: 27
                0
                • 2
                • 2
                In those days, Islam did not exist yet, but the ancestors of the Muslims lived, and also had a sexual life.
                1. Bakht Offline
                  Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 11 July 2020 11: 36
                  +1
                  • 2
                  • 1
                  "Ancestors of Muslims" is an expression that must be carved in stone. About the same can be said about the "ancestors of the Jews" living in Sodom.
                  I explain. It seems to me that before Moses and Muhammad no "ancestors" simply existed.
                  1. Binder Offline
                    Binder (Miron) 11 July 2020 12: 08
                    +2
                    • 2
                    • 0
                    Quote: Bakht
                    before Moses and Muhammad, no “ancestors” simply existed.

                    A somewhat vague definition of time boundaries - Moses and Muhammad lived in different eras, they are separated by millennia.
                    To draw a line under the theme of non-traditional relations, I will give an example from real life. In the 90s. on business, I had to get acquainted with the conditions of detention in Israeli prisons of Arabs sitting for involvement in terror. Among them were people decomp. age, level of education, social status. And the degree of involvement of prisoners in terrorist activities was different - some organized and planned terrorist attacks, others engaged in weapons and explosives, while others simply used blindly and their status was much lower. A prison, as has long been noted, is an accurate reflection of society as a whole. So, if in Russian places of deprivation of liberty passive buggers are despised outcasts, then among Arabs-prisoners they are quite normative members of the community, and those who serve any of the leaders generally respected as the wife of a respectable person. So it goes...
                    1. The comment was deleted.
                2. The comment was deleted.
      2. 123 Offline
        123 (123) 10 July 2020 22: 22
        0
        • 0
        • 0
        This was before Christianity. laughing
        Do not they need to dig so deep, enough of the Byzantine period. It would be a desire winked
  2. In the end, the British handed over hundreds of churches to mosques - no one squealed. Well, Erdogan did the same.
  3. Citizen Mѣshkov (Sergѣi) 10 July 2020 19: 41
    0
    • 2
    • 2
    On whose side is Erdogan playing, starting such a provocation?
    1. Binder Offline
      Binder (Miron) 10 July 2020 21: 36
      0
      • 3
      • 3
      Clear business - on the, Ottoman.
      1. Citizen Mѣshkov (Sergѣi) 10 July 2020 21: 48
        0
        • 2
        • 2
        I doubt it. After all, he knows the Arabian prophecies very well, which can launch a whole chain of irreversible consequences.
        1. Binder Offline
          Binder (Miron) 10 July 2020 22: 18
          -4
          • 2
          • 6
          The Turks traditionally dislike the Arabs and treat them with disdain, so what is Erdogan’s case for some prophecies? Moreover, today Turkey is objectively the strongest Muslim state, which has the second most powerful army in NATO.
          1. 123 Offline
            123 (123) 10 July 2020 22: 24
            +4
            • 5
            • 1
            Moreover, today Turkey is objectively the strongest Muslim state, which has the second most powerful army in NATO.

            And do the French and the British know? Or do you think in the old fashion bayonets?
            1. Binder Offline
              Binder (Miron) 10 July 2020 22: 36
              -3
              • 2
              • 5
              The French and the English are in the know, this is no secret to anyone. Like the fact that with the French and with the British, the Turks butted without a chance.
              1. 123 Offline
                123 (123) 10 July 2020 22: 57
                +3
                • 4
                • 1
                The French and the English are in the know, this is no secret to anyone. Like the fact that with the French and with the British, the Turks butted without a chance.

                I understood correctly, the French and the British are aware that the Turks have a stronger army? You do not take such trifles as nuclear weapons, aircraft carriers and practically absent in the Turks air defense?
                Still, the old fashioned - the number of bayonets is a measure of military power?
                1. Binder Offline
                  Binder (Miron) 10 July 2020 23: 52
                  -4
                  • 2
                  • 6
                  It’s immediately clear that you didn’t serve in the army for a single day, you lay more and more on the couch, you didn’t even shoot from the slingshot as a child — mama forbade it. In short, a major specialist in military matters ... wink
                  1. 123 Offline
                    123 (123) 11 July 2020 00: 31
                    +2
                    • 4
                    • 2
                    It’s immediately clear that you didn’t serve in the army for a single day, you lay more and more on the couch, you didn’t even shoot from the slingshot as a child — mama forbade it. In short, a major specialist in military matters ...

                    But in you the representative of the military dynasty in the 12th generation is visible a mile away. winked Surely instead of rattles a pomegranate hung in the cradle. laughing
                    1. Binder Offline
                      Binder (Miron) 11 July 2020 04: 48
                      -4
                      • 2
                      • 6
                      My ancestors were people of peaceful professions, but they never drove away from military service, and I once had a chance to serve in the SA in full. Well, the kids have already served in Israel. So, to some extent you are right - the dynasty, although we don’t hang grenades from the cradles - there are enough pomegranate trees under the windows.
                  2. gorenina91 Offline
                    gorenina91 (Irina) 11 July 2020 04: 00
                    -4
                    • 1
                    • 5
                    It’s immediately clear that you didn’t serve a day in the army

                    - That’s for sure ... - And a whole cohort of “divoloids” about the army is so “pretty heard” that one can only be given a diva ...- how so many (supposedly male population) managed to sit out somewhere and escape not only from the service in the army, but also from ... from elementary military training ... - They "served in the army" ..., "gaining impressions" from the crappy Russian films (military themes) filmed at the present time ... - And from them they draw their assessments and their "knowledge" about the army ...
                    - It just takes fear ...- what a huge amount they represent ... - And who will fight in Russia in the "case of what" ... - After all, sofas are not tanks and menacing speeches from sofa cushions. ..- you won’t frighten even sterilized domestic animals (dogs and kitties) ...
                    1. Binder Offline
                      Binder (Miron) 11 July 2020 04: 51
                      -2
                      • 1
                      • 3
                      Quote: gorenina91
                      And who will fight in Russia in the "case of what" ...

                      Let's hope that such a case does not happen.
          2. Citizen Mѣshkov (Sergѣi) 10 July 2020 22: 26
            +1
            • 2
            • 1
            I propose to return to this conversation in a year or two. I wonder what you will say then.
            1. Binder Offline
              Binder (Miron) 10 July 2020 22: 40
              0
              • 2
              • 2
              May God live and be in good health ...
    2. Sergey Tokarev Offline
      Sergey Tokarev (Sergey Tokarev) 11 July 2020 04: 17
      -4
      • 0
      • 4
      In the 15th century it was necessary to be indignant. Or go to the museum to pray? This is HIS property. He wants to - he will restore the temple, he wants - he will build a pool in his place ...
      1. Citizen Mѣshkov (Sergѣi) 11 July 2020 04: 35
        +2
        • 3
        • 1
        Whom? Everything is under the protection of UNESCO, nothing can be changed there. I understand that this is a political decision, but he must also understand that he went all-in.
        1. Sergey Tokarev Offline
          Sergey Tokarev (Sergey Tokarev) 11 July 2020 04: 38
          -4
          • 0
          • 4
          What is UNESCO?))) The USA put a device on them for a long time ... a toothless organization with optional solutions. What did UNESCO do when the “opposition” in Syria destroyed monuments? They stumbled and blown away ... and then stumbled ...
          1. Citizen Mѣshkov (Sergѣi) 11 July 2020 04: 49
            +2
            • 2
            • 0
            There was a war in Syria, what could they do? Send troops so that the monuments are destroyed even more? It’s ridiculous. Now the situation is different, sanctions will give way, and Erdogan (as far as I know) is not the Sultan, the Turks themselves will take it out if their economic condition worsens. Moreover, everything goes on against the backdrop of the k-virus crisis and the local self-isolation, from which the Turks are tired, and here the sanctions are right in the hands of those who tried to remove him several years ago. Do you think such a chance will be missed? Therefore, I wrote at the very beginning - who is behind this action in reality?
            1. Sergey Tokarev Offline
              Sergey Tokarev (Sergey Tokarev) 11 July 2020 04: 52
              -6
              • 0
              • 6
              I think the brains will set you right, like the rest of the religious herd. Nobody bothers you to go to the mosque and pray to the Christian gods (one god). Only now it will be free, and not for money, while there was a museum. Inflated the problem from scratch ... the Greeks will not be able to cut cabbage for a visit ... ah-ah, what a disgrace ...
              1. Citizen Mѣshkov (Sergѣi) 11 July 2020 04: 59
                +2
                • 2
                • 0
                It looks like you are definitely off topic if you are carrying such a blizzard. Therefore (as I told another commentator) we will postpone the conversation for a while.
  4. Dmitry S. Offline
    Dmitry S. (Dmitry Sanin) 10 July 2020 19: 45
    +3
    • 4
    • 1
    An urgent need to resurrect Oleg! For a long time no one was hammering on nails through a shield on the gates of Tsaregrad.
  5. Alexzn Offline
    Alexzn (Alexander) 10 July 2020 20: 41
    0
    • 2
    • 2
    Quote: 123
    Greeks have to remember that they are descendants of proud Romans

    New to Hellenic history?
    1. Cyril Offline
      Cyril (Kirill) 10 July 2020 21: 07
      -3
      • 0
      • 3
      He means the Byzantines, who called themselves Romans, yes.
    2. 123 Offline
      123 (123) 10 July 2020 21: 08
      +2
      • 3
      • 1
      New to Hellenic history?

      Everything new is well forgotten old. Weren't the Hellenes a part of Byzantium? As far as I remember, the self-name of the Byzantine Romans. The Greeks began to call the Greeks precisely in the Byzantine period. Am I mistaken in something?
      1. Sergey Sfiedu Offline
        Sergey Sfiedu (Sergey Sfyedu) 10 July 2020 22: 20
        +2
        • 2
        • 0
        Greeks are not descendants of the Romans. Greeks are Romans. Ellin in the Middle Ages, the term almost abusive, until Greece declared independence in the 19th century, the Romans - was the self-name of the Greeks, as early as the 20th century, many Greeks (Ionic, Asia Minor, Pontic) called themselves Roma (Rumei), Turkic-speaking Urumi, but not Hellenes . The Romans themselves did not call themselves Romans, this is a Greek term for a citizen of the Roman Empire. The Eastern Roman Empire was almost originally Greek - the Goths almost immediately after the capture of Italy were called the Eastern Romans by the Greeks, the Byzantine author John Kameniat writes that Xerxes fought with the Romans, etc.
        1. 123 Offline
          123 (123) 10 July 2020 22: 53
          0
          • 1
          • 1
          Thank you for the clarification. hi

          Ellin in the Middle Ages, the term is almost abusive

          Recently, Zhukov watched (Klim Sanych), in my opinion, he mentioned that during the time of Byzantium the Greeks were "a practically abusive term." You reminded me of it. laughing
  6. Alexzn Offline
    Alexzn (Alexander) 10 July 2020 21: 28
    -2
    • 0
    • 2
    Quote: 123
    New to Hellenic history?

    Everything new is well forgotten old. Weren't the Hellenes a part of Byzantium? As far as I remember, the self-name of the Byzantine Romans. The Greeks began to call the Greeks precisely in the Byzantine period. Am I mistaken in something?

    Yes, they were mistaken. In everything. Romans - Romans (Rom - Rome). Byzantium is the second Rome, hence the desire for continuity in the name, which did not make the Greeks Romans. Who told you that the Greeks were called Greeks (sorry for the tautology)? What language? Who! Still, the Greeks are descendants of the Hellenes (in any case, they think so and want to). Hellas - Greece, well, or Ancient Greece.
    1. 123 Offline
      123 (123) 10 July 2020 22: 39
      +1
      • 2
      • 1
      Yes, they were mistaken. In everything. Romans - Romans (Rom - Rome). Byzantium is the second Rome, hence the desire for continuity in the name, which did not make the Greeks Romans.

      In this case, we are talking about self-name. Many people lived in Byzantium, the same Armenians. They all lived in Byzantium and, if I am not mistaken, considered themselves Romans. This is not true?
      If we start digging, it’s not clear to us who to call, try now to figure out which of the Drevlyans, which of the glades. laughing

      As for the "Greeks, Greeks," maybe I’m not right, it was put aside in my memory. Leafed through a little, they write more Aristotle of the Greeks mentioned. The Greeks are more likely a pre-Christian period, although some say themselves and now consider them to be.
      In this case, the Greeks were referring to as the heirs of the Byzantine Empire, we are talking about successors.
      I hope you understand what I mean?
  7. Alexzn Offline
    Alexzn (Alexander) 10 July 2020 21: 41
    0
    • 1
    • 1
    Quote: Cyril
    he means the Byzantines who called themselves Romans, yes

    Jews from the Union in Israel are called Russians, from Morocco - Moroccans, etc. This does not mean that they ceased to be Jews, but became descendants ...
    1. 123 Offline
      123 (123) 10 July 2020 22: 40
      +1
      • 2
      • 1
      Jews from the Union in Israel are called Russians, from Morocco - Moroccans, etc. This does not mean that they ceased to be Jews, but became descendants ...

      And the Greeks in Israel called the Hellenes?
      1. Michael I Offline
        Michael I (Michael I) 11 July 2020 07: 55
        0
        • 0
        • 0
        Ya (i) vanim, and Greece Ya (i) van.
        1. 123 Offline
          123 (123) 11 July 2020 09: 53
          -1
          • 0
          • 1
          Thank you for the clarification hi
    2. Bakht Offline
      Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 11 July 2020 00: 15
      +3
      • 4
      • 1
      Kissinger visited the USSR:
      'Say, Mr. Zorin, are you a Jew? '
      'I'm a Russian.'
      'Oh I see. In that case I'm an American. '
      -----
      Kissinger's visit to the USSR
      - Tell me, Mr. Zorin, are you a Jew?
      - I am Russian.
      - Sure. And I'm American!
  8. Cheburashk Offline
    Cheburashk (Vladimir) 10 July 2020 22: 46
    +1
    • 1
    • 0
    I don’t understand anything at all! Why did Erdogan save the GDP during a military coup in 2016, why should he sell the S-400, why build the Turkish Stream, why build an atomic power station ??? Maybe I don’t understand something?
    And Erdogan for this, so to speak, thanked essentially all of Christianity!
    As such, there will be no violent reaction, in my opinion. Erdogan scares Europe with refugees, amers in general on the drum, if not all this in joy! And the Greeks are not capable of something independent because of their membership in the EU and NATO.
    The hope that Erdogan himself will get into such a ... from which he will not come out!
    1. 123 Offline
      123 (123) 10 July 2020 23: 24
      +2
      • 4
      • 2
      I don’t understand anything at all! Why did Erdogan save the GDP during a military coup in 2016, why should he sell the S-400, why build the Turkish Stream, why build an atomic power station ??? Maybe I don’t understand something?

      As far as I understand, Erdogan was the best of the worst. laughing His successor would be much less pleasant. This is about how Guaido help.

      And Erdogan for this, so to speak, thanked, in fact, all Christianity!

      It is not clear what gratitude for Christianity you expect from an Islamist.

      As such, a violent reaction, in my opinion, will not be. Erdogan scares Europe with refugees, amers in general on the drum, if not all this in joy! And the Greeks are not capable of something independent because of their membership in the EU and NATO.

      Totally agree with you. yes There will be no violent reaction. Including ours. They keep silent, but they will make a “mark in the personal file”. Erdogan -10 from karma.winked
      Somewhat surprised that there is no violent reaction here. No one calls for the immediate release of Constantinople and ...... to give it to the Greeks. Nobody announces even a small crusade. request

      The hope that Erdogan himself will get into such a ... from which he will not come out!

      In my opinion, this is exactly what he is doing. The nostrils are still outside, but the goal is already close. winked
      1. Citizen Mѣshkov (Sergѣi) 11 July 2020 02: 47
        0
        • 1
        • 1
        Wait a bit, the Tsar has not yet appeared, who will have to free Constantinople from the Turks.
  9. Alexzn Offline
    Alexzn (Alexander) 10 July 2020 23: 07
    0
    • 0
    • 0
    Quote: 123
    Yes, they were mistaken. In everything. Romans - Romans (Rom - Rome). Byzantium is the second Rome, hence the desire for continuity in the name, which did not make the Greeks Romans.

    In this case, we are talking about self-name. Many people lived in Byzantium, the same Armenians. They all lived in Byzantium, and if I am not mistaken, they considered themselves Romans. This is not true?
    If we start digging, it’s not clear to us who we should be called, now try to figure out which of the Drevlyans, which of the glades. laughing
    As for the "Greeks, Greeks," maybe I’m not right, it was put aside in my memory. Leafed through a little, they write more Aristotle of the Greeks mentioned. The Greeks are more likely a pre-Christian period, although some say themselves and now consider them to be.
    In this case, the Greeks were referring to as the heirs of the Byzantine Empire, we are talking about successors.
    I hope you understand what I mean?

    Simplify. Romei - the population of Byzantium (self-designation). These are not Greeks, but the entire population (Greeks, Italians, Armenians, Jews). This is not a specific people; rather, it is citizenship. Hellenes (from the Greek. Έλληνες) - self-name of the ancient and modern Greeks. If the Greeks and with pride agree to call themselves descendants, then it is the Hellenes, instead of the generally used international today, that is the Greeks (from the 7th century).
    1. 123 Offline
      123 (123) 10 July 2020 23: 29
      +2
      • 3
      • 1
      Simplify. Romei - the population of Byzantium (self-designation). These are not Greeks, but the entire population (Greeks, Italians, Armenians, Jews). This is not a specific people, it is rather citizenship. Hellenes (from the Greek. Έλληνες) - self-name of the ancient and modern Greeks. If the Greeks and with pride agree to call themselves descendants, then it is the Hellenes, instead of the generally used international today, that is the Greeks (from the 7th century).

      That is, they categorically do not want to bind themselves with Byzantium, and have nothing to do with the ancestors who called themselves Romans? Including, by religion?
      It seems to me that in vain we began to dig deep into. hi
  10. Alexzn Offline
    Alexzn (Alexander) 10 July 2020 23: 16
    0
    • 0
    • 0
    Quote: Sergey Sfyedu
    Greeks are not descendants of the Romans. Greeks are Romans. Ellin in the Middle Ages, the term almost abusive, until Greece declared independence in the 19th century, the Romans - was the self-name of the Greeks, as early as the 20th century, many Greeks (Ionian, Asia Minor, Pontic) called themselves Roma (Rumei), Turkic-speaking Urumi, but not Hellenes . The Romans themselves did not call themselves Romans, this is a Greek term for a citizen of the Roman Empire. The Eastern Roman Empire was almost originally Greek - the Goths almost immediately after the capture of Italy were called the Eastern Romans by the Greeks, the Byzantine author John Kameniat writes that Xerxes fought with the Romans, etc.

    Eastern Roman Empire, self-designation Power of the Romans, Roman Empire. Romanes in Latin or Romans in Greek in Russian ROMANS. They called themselves Romans, as successors, considering themselves the SECOND ROME. And again - in Byzantium it is not a people, but citizenship.
  11. Alexzn Offline
    Alexzn (Alexander) 10 July 2020 23: 23
    0
    • 0
    • 0
    Quote: 123
    Jews from the Union in Israel are called Russians, from Morocco - Moroccans, etc. This does not mean that they ceased to be Jews, but became descendants ...

    And the Greeks in Israel called the Hellenes?

    Yes! They are called JAVANIM, using the name that corresponded to Ancient Greece / Hellas.
  12. Alexzn Offline
    Alexzn (Alexander) 10 July 2020 23: 38
    0
    • 0
    • 0
    Quote: 123
    Simplify. Romei - the population of Byzantium (self-designation). These are not Greeks, but the entire population (Greeks, Italians, Armenians, Jews). This is not a specific people, it is rather citizenship. Hellenes (from the Greek. Έλληνες) - self-name of the ancient and modern Greeks. If the Greeks and with pride agree to call themselves descendants, then it is the Hellenes, instead of the generally used international today, that is the Greeks (from the 7th century).

    That is, they categorically do not want to bind themselves with Byzantium and have nothing to do with the ancestors who called themselves Romans? Including, by religion?
    It seems to me that in vain we began to dig deep into. hi

    They want it! But just like the Hellenes, who were the elite of Byzantium, and not ochlos.
  13. ***
    Hagia Sophia - stay here
    The Lord judged the nations and kings!
    After all, your dome, according to an eyewitness,
    Like on a chain, suspended from heaven.

    And for all centuries - Justinian’s example,
    When to abduct for alien gods
    Allowed Ephesian Diana
    One hundred and seven green marble pillars.

    But what did your builder think generous,
    When, in soul and in thought, is high,
    Arranged apse and exedry,
    Pointing them west and east?

    A beautiful temple bathing in peace
    And forty windows - triumph of light;
    On sails, under the dome, four
    The archangel is the most beautiful.

    And the wise spherical building
    Peoples and centuries will survive
    And the seraphim sobbing sob
    Do not warp the dark gilding.

    Mandelstam, 1912.

    ***
  14. Arkharov Offline
    Arkharov (Grigory Arkharov) 11 July 2020 09: 13
    0
    • 1
    • 1
    The only thing that always revolts me is when an object of worship is made out of a museum.
    1. Alexzn Offline
      Alexzn (Alexander) 11 July 2020 21: 26
      0
      • 0
      • 0
      Is there a museum from the temple? :)
      1. Arkharov Offline
        Arkharov (Grigory Arkharov) 12 July 2020 09: 17
        -1
        • 0
        • 1
        Excuse me, but I personally do not touch.
  15. Tramp1812 Offline
    Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 11 July 2020 10: 56
    +1
    • 2
    • 1
    The fact that one of the first Christian churches on the planet is ostentatiously converted into a mosque is a challenge to the entire Christian world. This is unambiguous. Hence the reaction of Catholics and Orthodox, Lutherans and Protestants.
  16. gorenina91 Offline
    gorenina91 (Irina) 11 July 2020 11: 21
    -3
    • 0
    • 3
    Erdogan's Decree: Hagia Sophia became a mosque

    - Well, what ...- now you can cluck any number; even if all the sofas under the site patriots burst and creep under the weight of the drunk beer by the owners of these sofas ... - this is the point ...
    This is a "sofa" in Turkey ... - it is "the highest body of executive, legislative power, etc ..."; who is formally completely subordinate to Erdogan and will do everything that Erdogan wants ... - this sofa is so sofa ...
    - Erdogan wanted to become a sultan ... and ... and he has almost become one ...
    - And the whole Turkish public only rejoices and welcomes the "great news" ...- welcomes this "Erdogan" decree ... - the decree on the "deposition" of the Great Hagia Sophia ..; Christian Cathedral, which is more than a thousand years old ...
    - Yes .., personally, I’ll even say more .... - And I’ll say that our former "Bakhtiyar brothers" in socialism ... - such "news" will not outrage (or even even please) ...
    - And what can Russia do ??? - Yes, absolutely nothing ...
    - Yes, even in the 19th century, such news would simply excite the whole Christian world; and what would happen in Russia itself at that time !!!
    - Yeah ... - "the times of the Admirals Ushakovs"; "the times of the Chesme battles" ... it is clear that they are gone forever ...
    1. Bakht Offline
      Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 11 July 2020 16: 33
      +1
      • 2
      • 1
      Very flattered. Do not forget me.

      Here such religious experts gathered that I would venture to ask a question.
      Now the church of the Holy Virgin is being reconstructed in Baku. Right in front of my house. In this regard, I had to go into the Temple and talk with the priest. Or as the foreman said - "with a Russian mall" :-)
      The question was this. I was interested in the exterior decoration of the Temple. What color should the roof and dome of the Temple be? Orthodox, respond. Can you answer without looking at the Internet? The answer of the “Russian mall” did not satisfy me, but it is not my business, after all, what color the roof and the dome of the Temple will be.
      -----
      PS Irina, this is a continuation of the theme of Russian oppression in Azerbaijan. The temple was to be demolished according to the plan of reconstruction of the city center. And built elsewhere. But then they decided to leave it and restore it. I wrote a letter to the architectural committee of the republic myself. And I received an answer to it within three days.
  17. Tramp1812 Offline
    Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 11 July 2020 11: 49
    +1
    • 1
    • 0
    Kissinger visited the USSR:
    'Say, Mr. Zorin, are you a Jew? '
    'I'm a Russian.'
    'Oh I see. In that case I'm an American. '
    -----
    Kissinger's visit to the USSR
    - Tell me, Mr. Zorin, are you a Jew?
    - I am Russian.
    - Sure. And I'm American!

    A famous joke. Repeatedly heard, including personally from Joseph Kobzon. By the way, Zorin and Kissinger are very similar in appearance. I also heard a version from the Jewish brothers, of course, that Zorin's real name is Stern (a star from Yiddish and German). What was my surprise when I read an interview with Valentin Zorin himself on this issue. His father is Russian, by the name of Zorin. And mother is a purebred Jewess. So, this very Zorin was written all his life by a Jew, including in his passport. And he explained why. For me, Zorin said, writing with a Jew was an incentive for achievement. This, he added, is like an acrobat without insurance. It was necessary to work more on oneself, to study better than others. And it helped a lot in life. That also happens.
  18. Tramp1812 Offline
    Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 11 July 2020 12: 12
    +3
    • 3
    • 0
    The translation of one of the first Christian churches, now a museum, into the legal status of a mosque is a challenge to the entire Christian world. This is shocking, and shocking demonstrative. But, as for me, non-wounding of Christianity is the main goal of what is happening. Erdogan’s rate is completely different - a total revision of all the principles of the greatest Turk in the history of this country Mustafa Kemal Atatürk (the father of the Turks is translated from Turkish, or any Turkic language). I personally have two politicians the greatest respect: Franklin Roosevelt and Ataturk. Ataturk's contribution to the establishment of Turkey is simply the greatest, almost the same as Moses in Jewish history. Having adopted the country after a crushing defeat in the First World War, mired on the tips of the ears in the most conservative Islam, with the institutions of dervishes, lawlessness, feudal relations in society, Ataturk dragged Turkey into Europe. He destroyed (really) all the mosques in Turkey, legally prohibited the wearing of Turkish national clothes in public places, Al Sophia reorganized the mosque into a museum (thereby saving the ancient murals that will now be destroyed according to the canons of Islam). Atatürk equalized the rights of men and women, carried out land reform, completely brought Turkish law into line with European. From his submission, Young Turk officers considered it an honor to drink a glass of cognac in one gulp and to bite a piece of pork ham. Publicly ridiculed the officers, who were afraid at the ball to invite Turkish women and touch them ... By Turkish standards, unheard of debauchery. He set a personal example: he was an alcoholic and died of cirrhosis. He was a wonderful person. And the army, according to his ideas, was the guarantor of democracy ... He was much hated by all radical Islam than Christians and Jews taken together. But the people and the army idolized him. The cult of personality of Ataturk before Erdogan came to power was sincere. Not immediately, but step by step, Erdogan began revisionism. For Israel, by the way, this is not bad. It is easier to deal with a backward and religious Islamist state and deal easier than with an enlightened one. Although the excellent relations between Turkey and Israel, which Ataturk built and today's Turkey with Israel, are incomparable. We will survive. But for the Turks and Turkey - what Erdoогan does is a crime and a rollback to the backward past. A fortel with a temple is one of the chords in the destruction of Atatürk’s cyclopean achievements.
  19. Alexzn Offline
    Alexzn (Alexander) 11 July 2020 15: 57
    0
    • 0
    • 0
    Quote: Rogue1812
    There it is stated that the last wife of the prophet - Aisha married him at the age of five. This is a well-known fact.

    Personally not known to me. Still, it is believed that at 6 and entered the harem at 9.
    1. Tramp1812 Offline
      Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 11 July 2020 16: 45
      0
      • 0
      • 0
      Quote: AlexZN
      Quote: Rogue1812
      There it is stated that the last wife of the prophet - Aisha married him at the age of five. This is a well-known fact.

      Personally not known to me. Still, it is believed that at 6 and entered the harem at 9.

      Well, maybe you personally. I referred to the source: Panova, Bakhtin: "The Life of Muhammad." Literally: "She went to Muhammad at five, having managed to pick up toys from the house." I’m not saying that Khadija was five years old when she married Muhammad. But maybe you personally have a different opinion.
      1. Bakht Offline
        Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 12 July 2020 08: 03
        +2
        • 2
        • 0
        There are three versions. Khadija married at the age of five, at the age of six and at the age of 17. One source cannot be said for sure. And in two it is impossible. Not a single person in the world will say at what age she got married.
        Early marriages are practiced in the Islamic world. But, of course, not in 5 or 6 years. Usually at 12-13 years. But this is not the only religion. For example, in India they are struggling with CHILD marriages. Age is less than 10 years. The official minimum age is now 18 years old, but in practice much less.
  20. Alexzn Offline
    Alexzn (Alexander) 11 July 2020 15: 59
    +1
    • 1
    • 0
    Quote: Rogue1812
    Although the excellent relations between Turkey and Israel, which Ataturk built and today's Turkey with Israel, are incomparable.

    You this, that ... more careful ... Ataturk died 10 years before the creation of Israel.
  21. Alexzn Offline
    Alexzn (Alexander) 11 July 2020 16: 07
    0
    • 1
    • 1
    Against the background of general condemnation, I would like to note. Erdogan -
    - not going to church to drive a herd and white brothers meat to fry;
    - make a latrine place from Hagia Sophia, and even vice versa;
    - close for tourists.
    The Turks have the sovereign right to dispose of objects of worship.
    Nevertheless, the solution, to put it mildly, is annoying.
  22. Tramp1812 Offline
    Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 11 July 2020 16: 41
    0
    • 1
    • 1
    Quote: AlexZN
    Quote: Rogue1812
    Although the excellent relations between Turkey and Israel, which Ataturk built and today's Turkey with Israel, are incomparable.

    You this, that ... more careful ... Ataturk died 10 years before the creation of Israel.

    From the fact that Ataturk died in 1938, before the proclamation of the State of Israel, absolutely nothing changes. The secular state created by him led pro-Israeli politics, after his death and before Erdogan came to power. This is the first. Secondly. When he was the head of Turkey, Erdogan not only pursued an active policy against Islamism, but was noted within Turkey and anti-Arab. Since it was the Arabs who impeded his struggle against Islamism. So the words of a comic Jewish song are applicable to Ataturk: ​​"It is evident that Chaim from the other world continues this work ....".
  23. The comment was deleted.
  24. Alexzn Offline
    Alexzn (Alexander) 11 July 2020 17: 13
    +1
    • 1
    • 0
    Quote: Rogue1812
    Quote: AlexZN
    Quote: Rogue1812
    Although the excellent relations between Turkey and Israel, which Ataturk built and today's Turkey with Israel, are incomparable.

    You this, that ... more careful ... Ataturk died 10 years before the creation of Israel.

    From the fact that Ataturk died in 1938, before the proclamation of the State of Israel, absolutely nothing changes. The secular state created by him led pro-Israeli politics, after his death and before Erdogan came to power. This is the first. Secondly. When he was the head of Turkey, Erdogan not only pursued an active policy against Islamism, but was noted within Turkey and anti-Arab. Since it was the Arabs who impeded his struggle against Islamism. So the words of a comic Jewish song are applicable to Ataturk: ​​"It is evident that Chaim is from the next world, this is continuing ...".

    I may surprise you ... Turkey voted AGAINST the creation of the state of Israel. True, in 1949 they recognized, but until the 60s kept relations secret. In short, not everything is so rosy and simple before Erdogan.
    1. Tramp1812 Offline
      Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 11 July 2020 17: 28
      +1
      • 2
      • 1
      Judge not according to their words, but according to their deeds. Turkey did not take either direct or indirect participation in the Arab-Israeli wars on the side of the Arabs, in discriminatory measures against Israel. After the Doomsday War, when all African countries and almost all Islamic countries severed diplomatic relations with Israel, Turkey did not. Turks, having cut 1.5 million Armenians and tens of thousands of Greeks during the Holocaust, did not touch a single Jew from the Jewish community of Turkey with their finger. This was during Ataturk. So you write "not everything was so rosy." Kindly specify what exactly “was not rosy”. Do not forget that for all its actual secularism, Turkey remained a Muslim country.
  25. Tramp1812 Offline
    Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 11 July 2020 18: 05
    0
    • 1
    • 1
    Quote: Bakht
    Very flattered. Do not forget me.
    Here such religious experts gathered that I would venture to ask a question.
    Now the church of the Holy Virgin is being reconstructed in Baku. Right in front of my house. In this regard, I had to go into the Temple and talk with the priest. Or as the foreman said "with a Russian mall" :-)
    The question was this. I was interested in the exterior decoration of the Temple. What color should the roof and dome of the Temple be? Orthodox, respond. Can you answer without looking at the Internet? The answer of the “Russian mall” did not satisfy me, but it is not my business, after all, what color the roof and the dome of the Temple will be.
    -----
    PS Irina, this is a continuation of the theme of Russian oppression in Azerbaijan. The temple was to be demolished according to the plan of reconstruction of the city center. And built elsewhere. But then they decided to leave it and restore it. I wrote a letter to the architectural committee of the republic myself. And I received an answer to it within three days.

    Azerbaijan has always been tolerant of Christianity and Judaism. And to the Jews in Soviet times, and generally wonderful. However, as in Georgia. But not in Armenia, although in this country .... 70 Jews. Not to be confused with the ethnic conflict with Armenia. There are deep and long-standing reasons for mutual hatred, as we say among Croats and Serbs.
  26. Alexzn Offline
    Alexzn (Alexander) 11 July 2020 18: 14
    +1
    • 2
    • 1
    Quote: Rogue1812
    Turks carving 1.5 million Armenians and tens of thousands of Greeks during the Holocaust

    You are extremely sloppy commenting on historical events, making many factual errors.
    What does the Turks, Greeks and Armenians have to do with the Holocaust? Ask the meaning of the term.
  27. Tramp1812 Offline
    Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 11 July 2020 19: 18
    +1
    • 1
    • 0
    Quote: AlexZN
    Quote: Rogue1812
    Turks carving 1.5 million Armenians and tens of thousands of Greeks during the Holocaust

    You are extremely sloppy commenting on historical events, making many factual errors.
    What does the Turks, Greeks and Armenians have to do with the Holocaust? Ask the meaning of the term.

    I have nolens-volens the impression that you are rolling a ball on my half of the table - a pitch so that I seem to be taller. Anyway. Let's analyze your last opus - a whim. So - the Holocaust and what is the relationship, and hereinafter. I answer. For the first time, the term Holocaust appeared in the English circulation in 1910 and was used as a concept-definition of ethnic cleansing. Used to describe the ethnic massacre of Turkish Armenians and Pontic Greeks in 1915-1916. The Armenians themselves called the Holocaust - "The Great Atrocity", in Armenian, of course. Similarly, the Holocaust of Jews in World War II, the Jews called the disaster - Shoah. Essentially, the term Holocaust, coined by Eli Wiesel, is a synonym for ethnic genocide. The term, as for me, is controversial, if we take its literal meaning. The same Holocaust took place against the Serbs by the Croats, the Germans against the Jews and Gypsies. Another question is that the Holocaust of Jews, as a people, was on many orders of magnitude larger. But, you see, from this, the etymology of the word does not change. And it treats Serbs, Gypsies, Armenians, Greeks, Jews alike. Well this is the introduction. In essence. I posted that Turkey Ataturk during the Holocaust of the Greeks and Armenians in 1915-1916 did not touch a single Jew from the very large Jewish community of Turkey. This moment and explanation of the reasons are described in detail in a special chapter, in the detailed work of prof. M. Sternsissa: "History of the State of Israel." On my proposal to concretize "that everything is not so rosy in Turkish-Israeli relations," you wrapped yourself in a toga of silence, like the hero Hasek, Lieutenant Oak. “Well, who is rude now,” the mad hatter asked? (L. Carroll). I understand that you just wanted to fix it. Also an occupation. During a pandemic. I am now writing from the sea from Netanya, a breeze, comfortable, tweet something.)
  28. Alexzn Offline
    Alexzn (Alexander) 11 July 2020 20: 12
    0
    • 1
    • 1
    Quote: Rogue1812
    Quote: AlexZN
    Quote: Rogue1812
    Turks carving 1.5 million Armenians and tens of thousands of Greeks during the Holocaust

    You are extremely sloppy commenting on historical events, making many factual errors.
    What does the Turks, Greeks and Armenians have for the Holocaust? Ask the meaning of the term.

    I have nolens -volens the impression is that you are rolling a ball on my half of the table - a pitch so that I seem to be taller. Anyway. Let's analyze your last opus - a whim. So - the Holocaust and what is the relationship, and hereinafter. I answer. For the first time, the term Holocaust appeared in the English circulation in 1910 and was used as a concept - the definition of ethnic cleansing. Used to describe the ethnic massacre of Turkish Armenians and Pontic Greeks in 1915-1916. The Armenians themselves called the Holocaust - "The Great Atrocity," in Armenian naturally. Similarly, the Holocaust of Jews in World War II, the Jews called the disaster - Shoah. In essence, the term Holocaust, introduced by Eli Wiesel, is a synonym for ethnic genocide. The term, as for me, is debatable, if we take its literal meaning. The same Holocaust took place against the Serbs by the Croats, the Germans against the Jews and Gypsies. Another question is that the Holocaust of Jews, as a people, was on many orders of magnitude larger. But, you see, from this, the etymology of the word does not change. And it treats Serbs, Gypsies, Armenians, Greeks, Jews alike. Well this is the introduction. In essence. I posted that Turkey Ataturk during the Holocaust of the Greeks and Armenians in 1915-1916, did not touch a single Jew from the very large Jewish community of Turkey. This moment and explanation of the reasons are described in detail in a special chapter, in the detailed work of prof. M. Sternsissa: "History of the State of Israel." On my proposal to concretize "that everything is not so rosy in Turkish-Israeli relations," you wrapped yourself in a toga of silence, like the hero Hasek, Lieutenant Oak. “Well, who is rude now,” the mad hatter asked? (L. Carroll). I understand that you just wanted to fix it. Also an occupation. During a pandemic. I am now writing from the sea from Netanya, a breeze, comfortable, tweet something. )

    Everything would be fine, BUT ... you confused the word GENOCIDE and the HOLOCAUST. The Holocaust in the broad sense - the mass destruction of people in the framework of the Second World War, narrow, most used sense - this is the destruction (you can use the word genocide) of the Jews.
  29. Alexzn Offline
    Alexzn (Alexander) 11 July 2020 20: 26
    0
    • 0
    • 0
    Quote: Rogue1812
    Quote: AlexZN
    Quote: Rogue1812
    Turks carving 1.5 million Armenians and tens of thousands of Greeks during the Holocaust

    You are extremely sloppy commenting on historical events, making many factual errors.
    What does the Turks, Greeks and Armenians have for the Holocaust? Ask the meaning of the term.

    I have nolens -volens the impression is that you are rolling a ball on my half of the table - a pitch so that I seem to be taller. Anyway. Let's analyze your last opus - a whim. So - the Holocaust and what is the relationship, and hereinafter. I answer. For the first time, the term Holocaust appeared in the English circulation in 1910 and was used as a concept - the definition of ethnic cleansing. Used to describe the ethnic massacre of Turkish Armenians and Pontic Greeks in 1915-1916. The Armenians themselves called the Holocaust - "The Great Atrocity," in Armenian naturally. Similarly, the Holocaust of Jews in World War II, the Jews called the disaster - Shoah. In essence, the term Holocaust, introduced by Eli Wiesel, is a synonym for ethnic genocide. The term, as for me, is debatable, if we take its literal meaning. The same Holocaust took place against the Serbs by the Croats, the Germans against the Jews and Gypsies. Another question is that the Holocaust of Jews, as a people, was on many orders of magnitude larger. But, you see, from this, the etymology of the word does not change. And it treats Serbs, Gypsies, Armenians, Greeks, Jews alike. Well this is the introduction. In essence. I posted that Turkey Ataturk during the Holocaust of the Greeks and Armenians in 1915-1916, did not touch a single Jew from the very large Jewish community of Turkey. This moment and explanation of the reasons are described in detail in a special chapter, in the detailed work of prof. M. Sternsissa: "History of the State of Israel." On my proposal to concretize "that everything is not so rosy in Turkish-Israeli relations," you wrapped yourself in a toga of silence, like the hero Hasek, Lieutenant Oak. “Well, who is rude now,” the mad hatter asked? (L. Carroll). I understand that you just wanted to fix it. Also an occupation. During a pandemic. I am now writing from the sea from Netanya, a breeze, comfortable, tweet something.)

    If you decided to hit the language jungle, you should have continued to quote - in English (!) Writing with a small or capital letter determined what was at stake - the Jewish genocide or simply genocide. But this is in the English language, and it seemed to me that we are conducting a discussion in Russian .... Once again, in Russian, the word Holocaust is used to mean the extermination of people within the WWII or the extermination of Jews. The combination of the Holocaust of Armenians is definitely not used.
    It just so happened that in Israel there are few people who are more informed about the Holocaust.
  30. RedproSet78 Offline
    RedproSet78 (Red Ivanov) 11 July 2020 20: 33
    +1
    • 1
    • 0
    The Turks are trying to step on the rake and anger God.
  31. Alexzn Offline
    Alexzn (Alexander) 11 July 2020 20: 37
    -1
    • 0
    • 1
    Quote: RedproSet78
    The Turks are trying to step on the rake and anger God.

    How can God be angry by making a temple out of a museum?
  32. Alexzn Offline
    Alexzn (Alexander) 11 July 2020 20: 47
    -1
    • 0
    • 1
    Quote: Rogue1812
    On my proposal to concretize "that not everything is so rosy in Turkish-Israeli relations," you wrapped yourself in a toga of silence

    I didn’t turn around anywhere, it’s just hard to keep track of your logic. I noticed that Ataturk did not form relations with Israel for obvious reasons. You immediately indicated how the Turks loved Jews and Israel before Erdogan, I pointed out to you that the very fact of denying the right to create a state, and then maintaining relations in secret speak of a complicated relationship. Now I must also talk about the difficulties in relations between Turkey and Israel. What for?
  33. Tramp1812 Offline
    Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 11 July 2020 21: 01
    +2
    • 2
    • 0
    Quote: AlexZN
    Quote: RedproSet78
    The Turks are trying to step on the rake and anger God.

    How can God be angry by making a temple out of a museum?

    So you can get to the point of absurdity. The largest Buddha statues on the planet, carved into the rocks of Afghanistan, did not fit into the canons of Islam ... Their Taliban, then representing official Afghanistan, were blown up. But they belonged to the cultural heritage of all mankind. So is the case with Al Sofia. The walls of the temple are decorated with ancient frescoes. Now they will be destroyed. And only because the postulates of Islam forbid portraying people. That is, the opinion of all mankind, the feelings of believing Christians, are ignored, as is the will of Ataturk, who transferred the monument of world culture to the temple.
  34. Tramp1812 Offline
    Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 11 July 2020 21: 18
    +1
    • 2
    • 1
    Quote: AlexZN
    Quote: Rogue1812
    On my proposal to concretize "that not everything is so rosy in Turkish-Israeli relations," you wrapped yourself in a toga of silence

    I didn’t turn around anywhere, it’s just hard to keep track of your logic. I noticed that Ataturk did not form relations with Israel for obvious reasons. You immediately indicated how the Turks loved Jews and Israel before Erdogan, I pointed out to you that the very fact of denying the right to create a state, and then keeping the relationship in secret speaks of a complicated relationship. Now I must also talk about the difficulties in relations between Turkey and Israel. What for?

    Everything is in order with logic. And before personal schizophrenia a couple of years still exist. I expressed the view that transferring Al Sophia to a mosque is another demonstrative step towards revising Ataturk’s heritage and Islamizing Turkey. And this heritage, including the foundation of good relations between Turkey and Israel. All! In your response, you noticed that the death of Ataturk ten years before the creation of Israel does not allow me to pose the question like that. I replied that in the days of Ataturk (not to Ataturk, there is no need to juggle!) The Jews of Turkey happily escaped the Holocaust, I write in small letters)). And the foundation of the secular Turkish state laid by Ataturk is an explanation of why Turkey did not support the Arabs in any of the wars, did not break off diplomatic relations with Israel and had a visa-free regime, in the absence of at least one scandal. You have left the answer in essence. After all, one cannot consider the answer "not everything is so rosy." As well as the rhetorical question: “why?”. I understood this so that you can not argue your own premise. "Your lady is a bit" (A.S. Pushkin. "Queen of Spades").
    1. Alexzn Offline
      Alexzn (Alexander) 12 July 2020 08: 10
      0
      • 0
      • 0
      You can read a little about Turkey here -

      https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/turetsko-izrailskie-otnosheniya-istoriya-i-sovremennost/viewer

      About the visa-free regime with Turkey, I note - it is visa-free for us, the Turks must receive a visa. Does this not tell you anything? Once again, not everything is so simple in our relations with Turkey since the creation of the state.
  35. _AMUHb_ Offline
    _AMUHb_ (_AMUHb_) 11 July 2020 23: 41
    +2
    • 2
    • 0
    Turk, you take a lot on yourself, but oh well, live now ... and isn’t it in Constantinople itself that the Romanovs promised for participating in the 1st World Anglo-Saxons? They dragged a carrot in front of a donkey ... in general, they fought 18 times with the Turks, it’s possible the 19th, although whoever is better than them in this belt are not homosexual Westerners, that's for sure ...
  36. Alexzn Offline
    Alexzn (Alexander) 12 July 2020 07: 51
    0
    • 0
    • 0
    Quote: Rogue1812
    The walls of the temple are decorated with ancient frescoes. Now they will be destroyed. And only because the postulates of Islam forbid portraying people.

    I repeat once again. You have too many pathos and ... factual errors. It is not clear why the murals will be destroyed. The logic with the message - Muslims are forbidden to portray people - does not work! For at least FIVE centuries, Hagia Sophia was a mosque and the world did not turn upside down, and we could (and hopefully, continue to) see the frescoes.
    The parallel transformation (return!) Of Sofia into a mosque with the destruction of Buddha is too tight.
    1. Tramp1812 Offline
      Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 12 July 2020 10: 53
      0
      • 0
      • 0
      Quote: AlexZN
      Quote: Rogue1812
      The walls of the temple are decorated with ancient frescoes. Now they will be destroyed. And only because the postulates of Islam forbid portraying people.

      It is not clear why the murals will be destroyed. The logic with the message - Muslims are forbidden to portray people - does not work! For at least FIVE centuries, Hagia Sophia was a mosque and the world did not turn upside down, and we could (and hopefully continue to) see the frescoes.
      The parallel transformation (return!) Of Sofia into a mosque with the destruction of Buddha is too tight.

      Our talented compatriot is M.M. Zhvanetsky spoke out, as always, very aptly about the two debaters. I will not quote these winged words. I will confine myself to the observation that I am not going to arrange for you an educational program here. It’s not my fault that you don’t know that the Ottomans frescoes were covered with a calcareous layer that corroded them.
      Only due to the fact that Atatürk reorganized Sofia into a museum, the lime was removed and the frescoes survived. Now they will be closed again, since the images of living beings are contrary to Muslim tradition. Hence the famous mosaics, and ornament, and not sculptures and paintings, like the Christians.
  37. Alexzn Offline
    Alexzn (Alexander) 12 July 2020 09: 36
    +1
    • 1
    • 0
    Quote: Arkharov
    Excuse me, but I personally do not touch.

    As an atheist, I like the transfer of temples to museums more. :)
  38. Alexzn Offline
    Alexzn (Alexander) 12 July 2020 11: 02
    0
    • 0
    • 0
    Quote: Rogue1812
    Quote: AlexZN
    Quote: Rogue1812
    The walls of the temple are decorated with ancient frescoes. Now they will be destroyed. And only because the postulates of Islam forbid portraying people.

    It is not clear why the murals will be destroyed. The logic with the message - Muslims are forbidden to portray people - does not work! For at least FIVE centuries, Hagia Sophia was a mosque and the world did not turn upside down, and we could (and hopefully continue to) see the frescoes.
    The parallel transformation (return!) Of Sofia into a mosque with the destruction of Buddha is too tight.

    Our talented compatriot is M.M. Zhvanetsky spoke out, as always, very aptly about the two debaters. I will not quote these winged words. I will confine myself to the observation that I am not going to arrange for you an educational program here. It’s not my fault that you don’t know that the Ottomans frescoes were covered with a calcareous layer that corroded them.
    Only due to the fact that Atatürk reorganized Sofia into a museum, the lime was removed and the frescoes survived. Now they will be closed again, since the images of living beings are contrary to Muslim tradition. Hence the famous mosaics and ornament, and not sculptures and paintings, like the Christians.? האם הבנת זה

    There is some difference between HIDDEN and destroyed. Even in those days, they felt this difference ... Today are you afraid of destruction? A couple of years before your ... there are still - we’ll check.