The expert said that the promotion of "Katyn case" was approved by Hitler


A Soviet Komsomol and party worker, a Russian publicist, deputy chairman of the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia (LDPR), 3rd-class state adviser Vladislav Shved (born 1944) said that the propaganda promotion of the Katyn affair was approved by Adolf Hitler. The Swede devoted many years to research on this topic, he is the author of books: “Katyn. The modern history of the issue ”and“ The Secret of Katyn, or the Evil Shot in Russia ”.


The researcher claims that the promotion in the information space of the Katyn case was under the personal control of Joseph Goebbels, the Reich Chancellor of Germany, the minister of "public education and propaganda", the closest associate and follower of Adolf Hitler. The Swede told about this. RIA News.

According to the Swede, the name "Katyn case" comes from the small village of Katyn, located 14 kilometers west of Smolensk. There, in 1943, a mass grave of Polish prisoners of war, which were shot during the Second World War, was discovered in the Kozi Gory tract.

Moreover, the point in this matter has not yet been set. For example, the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) found the NKVD guilty of the massacre of Polish officers. At the same time, the Swede is sure that after the defeat at Stalingrad in the spring of 1943, the Third Reich realized that the war with the USSR would be long and relying only on military power was no longer enough.

It was decided to put on the service a certain provocation that would be able to split the ranks of the anti-Hitler coalition, and in Poland, through which the Red Army was supposed to go to the borders of Germany, would be perceived as universal villainy

- considers the Swede.

That is how Katyn came about as a symbol of the atrocities of the NKVD of the USSR. Then, near the village of Katyn, Smolensk region, the Nazis allegedly accidentally discovered the burial place of killed Polish officers

- explained the Swede.

Indeed, an article entitled "GPU - the killing of 12 Polish officers" appeared in the main Nazi newspaper Völkischer Beobachter (People’s Observer) on April 000, 13. At the same time, in the process of exhumation, the Nazis staged a large propaganda show. However, it is known that the Nazis voiced the "Katyn case" in close contact with representatives of the Polish government in exile, who was in London. By the way, the source of this information was archival reports of Sandor Rado (Radó Sándor) - a resident of Soviet military intelligence during the Second World War.

The Swede knows that in the process of exhumation and identification of corpses, experts from technical Commission of the Polish Red Cross. The results were presented in the "Official Material on the Massacre in Katyn", which was published in 1943 in Berlin. The document said that 4143 corpses were exhumed from the graves, of which 2815 (67,9%) were allegedly identified. At the same time, the Nazis allegedly found lists of Polish officers sent to Smolensk in the spring of 1940 in the building of the NKVD of the Smolensk Region in July 1941. But in 1945, all the "documentary evidence" of the NKVD responsibility in the "Katyn case" was for some reason burned by the Nazis at the direction of Berlin.

The author draws attention that on the instructions of the prosecutor of Krakow, Roman Martini, who opened in the fall of 1945 a criminal case on the death of Polish officers, Polish forensic experts (professors Jan Olbyht and Sergiusz Sengalevich) prepared a review of the Nazi material. The Poles discovered "a lot of gaps, mistakes and inaccuracies." The recall of Polish experts was to be submitted to the Nuremberg International Military Tribunal. However, this has not been done. And in March 1946, the prosecutor Martini was strangely killed.

The Swede found that most of the exhumed corpses were dressed in Polish uniforms. Meanwhile, according to the "Regulations on prisoners of war" of March 19, 1931, in the USSR, prisoners of war "were allowed to wear their uniforms, but without distinctive signs assigned to a rank or position." In addition, pistol cartridges Geco 7,65 D. (Gustav Genschow & Co.) with stainless brass sleeves were produced in Germany only until the end of 1940. In 1941, due to the shortage of non-ferrous metals, the Nazis had to switch to the production of copper-plated steel sleeves, and then purely steel sleeves, coated with a gray-green varnish. That is, it was possible to put an end to the Katyn case even then.
  • Used photos: http://archive.government.ru/
68 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must to register.
I have an account? Sign in
  1. steelmaker Offline steelmaker
    steelmaker 5 March 2020 21: 32
    +7
    That is, it was possible to put an end to the Katyn affair even then.

    And now it’s not too late. The poles of more than 100 of our monuments were demolished and flower beds made.

    Debt payment is beautiful
    1. 123 Offline 123
      123 (123) 7 March 2020 23: 05
      +1
      And now it’s not too late. The poles of more than 100 of our monuments were demolished and flower beds made.
      Debt good turn deserves another.

      Are you suggesting that we turn into the same animals?
  2. It’s clear to Kose - the Germans poached Poles, it's like giving a drink! It was they who avenged them for the unleashing of the war 2.
  3. 123 Offline 123
    123 (123) 6 March 2020 00: 46
    +2
    Moreover, the point in this matter has not yet been set. For example, the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) found the NKVD guilty of the massacre of Polish officers.

    This garbage dump now determines the perpetrators? belay Where did they get such authority? As far as I remember, this is not in his competence. request Where can I see the solution?
    1. In the Supreme Court of Russia! And nowhere else!
      1. 123 Offline 123
        123 (123) 7 March 2020 12: 23
        +1
        In the Supreme Court of Russia! And nowhere else!

        I meant that the conviction is not at all within the competence of the ECHR, in short, then:

        8. The powers of the European Court of Human Rights:
        recognize the violation of human rights;
        award compensation to victims; recognize the defendant as not fulfilling the final decision of the European Court;
        make advisory opinions; order the defendant to take certain measures to eliminate human rights violations, indicating the nature of these measures.

        https://roseurosud.org/espch/evropejskij-sud-po-pravam-cheloveka

        That's all. Either the article is a mistake, or they stick their nose too long where they should not.
  4. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
    Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 6 March 2020 01: 49
    -4
    And Putin, judging by the photo, in collusion with the Poles?
    Another place of mass burial of Poles in the vicinity of the village of Mednoye (Tver region). The fighting for the village began on October 17, 41, and ended on October 21, 41. Moreover, the German attacks were repelled. It turns out that in 4 days the Germans in the battlefield were able to quietly shoot and bury 6 thousand Poles. Here they are nimble.
    1. 123 Offline 123
      123 (123) 7 March 2020 13: 04
      +1
      And Putin, judging by the photo, in collusion with the Poles?

      No, he is not in conspiracy, he simply honors the memory of the dead, of all the dead. Unlike his counterpart on the left. There is still no monument to the tortured Red Army men. You’ll go in the spring to collect strawberries, do not consider it work, at least put flowers on the grave.
      As I understand it, his opinion is decisive for you? And will you do it, if, say, on the basis of new data, he announces that the Germans shot him?

      Another place of mass burial of Poles in the vicinity of the village of Mednoye (Tver region). The fighting for the village began on October 17, 41, and ended on October 21, 41. Moreover, the German attacks were repelled. It turns out that in 4 days the Germans in the battlefield were able to quietly shoot and bury 6 thousand Poles. Here they are nimble.

      First, who said that there are 6 Poles? Foreign agent "memorial"? As far as I know, about 000 dead have been excavated. Against further excavations, the very same "Memorial" is throwing hysterics. Whose graves are there - we need to figure it out. In those places, for example, hospitals were located.
      PS For those who want to briefly familiarize themselves with the essence of the problem link:

      https://poznamka.ru/russia/mednoe-tverskaya-oblast
      1. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
        Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 8 March 2020 01: 46
        -2
        Quote: 123
        No, he is not in conspiracy, he simply honors the memory of the dead, of all the dead.

        This, of course, is commendable, but does he honor the tortured Gestapo or the tortured NKVD? For many on this site this is important.

        Quote: 123
        Unlike his counterpart on the left. There is still no monument to the tortured Red Army men.

        Bad.

        Quote: 123
        You’ll go in the spring to collect strawberries, do not consider it work, at least put flowers on the grave.

        Although Vladimir Vladimirovich is trying, but in St. Petersburg we still have the opportunity to earn money, and there is no need to go to the berries, especially to Poland. Once laid flowers on the grave of prisoners in Lappeenranta, will this be counted? You would also, instead of crying that there were enemies and Russophobes around, would take part in maintaining the graves of our soldiers in Poland.

        Quote: 123
        As I understand it, his opinion is decisive for you? And will you do it, if, say, on the basis of new data, he announces that the Germans shot him?

        No, not decisive. Just a win-win option, many adherents of the theory of the conspiracy of the Katyn massacre are at the same time Putinophiles. And such a formulation of the question can cause them cognitive dissonance. Pure harmfulness.

        Quote: 123
        First, who said that there are 6 Poles? Foreign agent "memorial"? As far as I know, about 000 dead have been excavated. Against further excavations, the very same "Memorial" is throwing hysterics. Whose graves are there - we need to figure it out. In those places, for example, hospitals were located.
        PS For those who want to briefly familiarize themselves with the essence of the problem link:

        It is necessary to inquire about the activities of the "memorial", you (and not only you) advertise it this way. No, not "memorial", documents are in the public domain http://portal.rusarchives.ru/publication/katyn/05.shtml



        Well, the truth is, this page of history has already been turned upside down, historians and even the rabies of politicians have come to an agreement. What else is there to discuss. It is better to solve the problem of the memory of the captured Red Army soldiers of 19-22.
        1. 123 Offline 123
          123 (123) 8 March 2020 07: 54
          +2
          This, of course, is commendable, but does he honor the tortured Gestapo or the tortured NKVD? For many on this site this is important.

          Who cares, they try to figure it out, and not to tear their throats, they say, everything is already clear.

          Although Vladimir Vladimirovich is trying, but in St. Petersburg we still have the opportunity to earn money, and there is no need to go to the berries, especially to Poland.

          In order not to ride the berries, you must not whine, but try yourself, you should not wait for alms from Vladimir Vladimirovich.

          Once laid flowers on the grave of prisoners in Lappeenranta, will this be counted?

          It will be credited. In St. Petersburg, flowers have nowhere to put more than once? Do you consider such an act for a feat? Once put and can you tell your whole life?

          You, too, instead of crying that there were enemies and Russophobes around, would take part in maintaining the graves of our soldiers in Poland

          First, kindly quote where I cried?
          Judge people by yourself?

          No, not decisive. Just a win-win option, many adherents of the theory of the conspiracy of the Katyn massacre are at the same time Putinophiles. And such a formulation of the question can cause them cognitive dissonance. Pure harmfulness.

          I am not a defendant for many, I have my own opinion. What is another conspiracy theory? I objectively consider all the pros and cons. For me, the interest is purely historical. If the NKVD were shot, I would not be surprised. The time was severe, the Poles did not stand on ceremony with our prisoners, if it was not possible to evacuate to the rear, they could also shoot. Leaving the professional military, who will start shooting at you tomorrow, is stupid and criminal. So, I have no prejudice on this issue. All the facts known to me do not allow me to say that this is the work of the NKVD, rather, the Germans. By the way, if you really like to hang tags, whose will you yourself be?

          It is necessary to inquire about the activities of the "memorial", you (and not only you) advertise it this way.

          What is there to be interested in? I looked at them, read them, the usual propaganda trash, also paid from abroad.

          No, not a "memorial", the documents are in the public domain.

          http://portal.rusarchives.ru/publication/katyn/05.shtml

          I read the link, had some fun. laughing This "document" says that

          The entire operation to liquidate these persons was carried out on the basis of the Decree of the CPSU Central Committee of March 5, 1940.

          The decree itself - can you tell me where to look? I have no faith in Khrushchev "and his comrades," they are interested persons, they were hanging everything on Stalin.
          I watched the video with "grandfather" Tokarev, not convincingly. You can look at these at your leisure. People are not stupid, listen carefully, there is something to think about.





          Well, the truth is, this page of history has already been turned upside down, historians and most politicians have come to an agreement. What else is there to discuss. It is better to somehow solve the memory problem of captured Red Army soldiers of 19-22.

          Turn it over early. Which historians do you mean? Can be more? But politicians have come to an agreement today, tomorrow they’ve changed their minds, politics is a changeable thing, and that’s their business, what they came to. I repeat, for me the interest is not political.
          1. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
            Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 10 March 2020 02: 43
            -2
            Quote: 123
            Who cares, they try to figure it out, and not to tear their throats, they say, everything is already clear.

            I totally agree.

            Quote: 123
            In order not to ride the berries, you must not whine, but try yourself, you should not wait for alms from Vladimir Vladimirovich.

            What are you talking about? Are you forced to go for berries?

            Quote: 123
            It will be credited. In St. Petersburg, flowers have nowhere to put more than once? Do you consider such an act for a feat? Once put and can you tell your whole life?

            Have you read the fairy tale about the goldfish? Something you become like an old woman from that tale. As I understand it, do you visit the grave of an unknown soldier every day? Something becomes like you are going to indicate what and how to do it.

            Quote: 123
            First, kindly quote where I cried?

            Quote: 123
            Unlike his counterpart on the left. There is still no monument to the tortured Red Army men.

            For some reason the link was rubbed, look at the Polish commonwealth "Kursk". Perhaps they will be interested in the idea of ​​a monument to the Red Army.

            Quote: 123
            The time was severe, the Poles did not stand on ceremony with our prisoners, if it was not possible to evacuate to the rear, they could also shoot.

            Which rear? Are you sure you were interested in the question?

            Quote: 123
            Leaving the professional military, who will start shooting at you tomorrow, is stupid and criminal.

            It’s criminal to organize mass executions, and again take an interest in a question, not only officers were executed there. Why then were the Germans captured in the Second World War?

            Quote: 123
            By the way, if you really like to hang tags, whose will you yourself be?

            I think the views of social liberals are close to me.

            Quote: 123
            The decree itself - can you tell me where to look? I have no faith in Khrushchev "and his comrades," they are interested persons, they were hanging everything on Stalin.

            Ibid:

            http://portal.rusarchives.ru/publication/katyn/02.shtml

            Quote: 123
            I watched the video with "grandfather" Tokarev, not convincingly.

            Wasserman is more convincing for you than Tokarev? Well, OK. Wasserman refers to a certain Mukhin Yuri Ignatievich, take an interest in a most interesting person. From his ideas
            - the first president of Russia B.N. Yeltsin died in 1996, and until 2007 he was replaced by doubles, of whom there were at least three;
            - Stalin sought to remove the Communist Party from power and turn it into a public organization of a spiritual-educational type, like a church (spiritual order);
            - the order to bring the Soviet troops in full combat readiness before the German attack was given by Stalin on time - June 18, 1941, but was sabotaged by the generals;
            - the Boeing 747 aircraft of the KAL-007 flight was shot down on September 1, 1983, not by Soviet air defense, but by an American fighter, not over Aniva Bay, but in the Niigata area. The USSR, having on hand evidence of this, did not make accusations against the United States allegedly because, in response, the CIA would disclose information about the unseemly role of the KGB of the USSR in eliminating Stalin and Beria.
            But say - there is no conspiracy.
            That is, I understand correctly, Goebbels fabricated the Katyn shooting almost 80 years ago, for some reason brought at least 200 more Poles to the Tver region and shot them almost at the front line (and, as I understand it, already in the rear of the Soviet troops), but for some reason I forgot to tell the world public about this (I probably did a bookmark for Gorbachev). Then, in order to annoy the dead Stalin, Khrushchev conducted his own fabricated investigation, but for some reason did not make it public, then Gorbachev instructed the USSR prosecutor’s office to fabricate the case in support of Goebbels’s version, so that, I suspect, harm the USSR because of his inherent Russophobia, then Yeltsin helped support the Goebbels fiction, again due to congenital Russophobia, starting the construction of the complex in Medny, and then Putin (I don’t know why), continued to work on his predecessors for Goebbels, ending it with roitelstvo. As a result, we have 80 years of systematic joint work of the leadership of Nazi Germany and Soviet, Russian leaders in order to discredit the honest name of Stalin. Did I understand everything correctly? Nothing to miss? And most importantly, there is no conspiracy theory, and everyone has such understandable, worthy of spent efforts motives.

            Quote: 123
            Which historians do you mean? Can be more?

            I do not remember. Julia Kantor, sort of.
            1. 123 Offline 123
              123 (123) 10 March 2020 14: 24
              +1
              What are you talking about? Are you forced to go for berries?

              This is to say that every blacksmith himself is happy with his own happiness and should not complain that Putin did not personally provide you with a decent life.

              Have you read the fairy tale about the goldfish? Something you become like an old woman from that tale. As I understand it, do you visit the grave of an unknown soldier every day? Something becomes like you are going to indicate what and how to do it.

              For you exactly it seems.

              For some reason the link was rubbed, look at the Polish commonwealth "Kursk". Perhaps they will be interested in the idea of ​​a monument to the Red Army.

              The point is not in the activities of the public organization "Kursk", they, of course, are engaged in a good and noble cause, it is about Poland's position as a state and interstate relations. They are constantly demanding some kind of repentance and confessions from Russia, but they are in no hurry to do this themselves. The process must be two-way. Relationships will never work out any other way.

              Which rear? Are you sure you were interested in the question?

              Here you are absolutely right, it sounds strange, I’ll try to explain. I considered various versions of the tragedy, the NKVD in 1940 or the Germans after the occupation, and also allowed the execution of the NKVD after the outbreak of war before the retreat. In general, I put it wrong. From now on I will try to be more careful. hi

              It’s criminal to organize mass executions, and again take an interest in a question, not only officers were executed there. Why then were the Germans captured in the Second World War?

              I agree, executions are a crime, whoever does it. You look at events from the perspective of our time, time was cruel, then there were no appeals to the ECHR. Formal details such as the presence of a military rank were ignored. 1 world, civil, blood flowed for decades, they just got used to it, the moral and price of human life was somewhat different.

              I think the views of social liberals are close to me.

              I think this is not bad.
              Thank you for the link, an interesting document, but this is an extract from the Protocol of the meeting of the Politburo of the Central Committee. Perhaps in the original it looked like this:

              https://runivers.ru/doc/d2.php?CENTER_ELEMENT_ID=150896&PORTAL_ID=7462&SECTION_ID=6336

              But is it so? I don’t know, theoretically, if the document was authenticated, there should be an examination of the document itself and a graphological examination of the signature of E.U. Chernenko from 1970, made in the margins of the document.
              What is interesting in the extract itself, pay attention to the upper left corner, the date "March 5", but any year, but not the 40th. Look also at the second page, I believe this is the other side. I may be wrong, but judging by what was written, this extract was made for Shelepin in February 1959. Indirectly, the date of discharge is confirmed by the presence of the letter "t" (comrade) in front of Shelepin's surname and the absence of it in front of the surname of Beria, who, as you know, by that time was no longer considered a comrade and was shot. Khrushchev's report was read three years before that date, and the debunking of the "personality cult" was in full swing. Hence, it could have been a politically motivated forgery.
              Another date is no less interesting, on the back it is also indicated that a copy of the extract was sent to Beria on December 4, 1941. Hence two questions:
              1. Why is there no information about the direction of the extract in March 1940?
              2. Why was the extract sent to Beria on December 4, 1941?
              Let me remind you that the next day (December 5), the Red Army launched a counteroffensive near Moscow. It turns out that the Central Committee apparatus "forgot" to send an extract in the calm pre-war year and did it on the eve of the offensive. Has it become calmer for them to work and are concerned about "past shortcomings"? Or did Beria make it clear that it was necessary to advance to Katyn and that everything had to be "cleaned up" urgently? I have no answers. Can you tell me?
              By the way, is there a Solution, where is the execution information? So to speak, "progress report". Or then, the Central Committee did not follow the implementation of its decisions and instructions? No control? Usually such sloppiness and non-binding are attributed to our time.
              By the way, why not all Poles were shot, there were still more than 40 thousand of them in the camps? How can you explain this selective approach? The farther east they were, the more loyal they became and had a greater inclination to cooperation and "reforging"?

              That is, I understand correctly, Goebbels fabricated the Katyn shooting almost 80 years ago, for some reason brought at least 200 more Poles to the Tver region and shot them almost at the front line (and, as I understand it, already in the rear of the Soviet troops), but for some reason I forgot to tell the world public about this (I probably did a bookmark for Gorbachev).

              First, why "in the rear"? As far as I remember, all the places of execution were occupied by German troops. What rear are you talking about? Secondly, why didn't they? They did it as publicly as possible, it was for this that the composition of the commission was initially international (surnames by reference).

              http://istmat.info/node/26224

              Let's leave the conspiracy theory aside for now and try to figure out the real things. Both sides had a motive and opportunity, as long as there is a lot of unclear information for the final conclusion is not enough. You can, of course, just believe, this is your own business, for now I will abstain. hi
  5. shinobi Offline shinobi
    shinobi (Yuri) 6 March 2020 04: 03
    +4
    It is enough to see how the corpses were located in the burial place to understand that the NKVD was not standing nearby. A purely German pragmatic approach, the NKVD never engaged in rational stacking.
  6. Nikolay Malyugin (Nikolai Malyugin) 6 March 2020 07: 32
    +2
    When our liberals repented, many denials of involvement of the Red Army in this execution appeared in print. The question here is that this will be supported by the forces that the USSR hates.
  7. Arkharov Offline Arkharov
    Arkharov (Grigory Arkharov) 6 March 2020 08: 26
    0
    Probably approved. Only the essence and recognized history of the issue does not change this.
  8. kig Offline kig
    kig 6 March 2020 08: 39
    0
    Criminal case No. 159. Investigation of the Chief Military Prosecutor's Office of the USSR.

    On September 27, 1990, the Main Military Prosecutor's Office began an investigation into the criminal case of the killings in Katyn, which received serial number 159. During the investigation, preliminary findings confirmed in May 1991 by the USSR Prosecutor General Nikolai Trubin were confirmed and detailed:

    The collected materials allow us to draw a preliminary conclusion that Polish prisoners of war could be shot on the basis of the decision of the Special Meeting at the NKVD of the USSR during April-May 1940 in the UNKVD of the Smolensk, Kharkov and Kalinin Regions and buried respectively in the Katyn Forest near Smolensk, in the Mednoye area 32 km from the city of Tver and in the 6th quarter of the forest park zone of Kharkov.

    Despite the preliminary conclusion of the Prosecutor General Trubin that the Special Meeting imposed the sentences on the Polish officers, until November 1941 the Special Meeting had no authority to pronounce the death sentences. With the opening of the documents of the “Special Folder”, it turned out that the specially created troika of the NKVD, consisting of Merkulov, Kobulov and Bashtakov, passed the sentences.

    The investigation, initiated by the USSR Chief Military Prosecutor's Office, was continued by the RF Chief Military Prosecutor's Office and was conducted until the end of 2004; during it, witnesses and participants in the massacres of the Poles were questioned. In particular, D.S. Tokarev, one of the participants in the executions in Tver, was questioned. From his testimony, such a detail as the presence of German bullets was explained. He said that the leader of the shootings, V. M. Blokhin, “brought with him a whole suitcase of German Walthers.” It turned out that these pistols wear out quickly. ”

    According to the statement of the Chief Military Prosecutor of the Russian Federation Alexander Savenkov, “more than 900 witnesses were identified and questioned as part of the investigation, more than 18 examinations were conducted, in which more than a thousand objects were investigated. Over 200 bodies have been exhumed.
  9. Sergey Latyshev Offline Sergey Latyshev
    Sergey Latyshev (Serge) 6 March 2020 09: 12
    +1
    Soviet Komsomol and party worker, Russian publicist, deputy chairman of the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia (LDPR)

    + Putin in the photo + confused text.

    Everything is clear right away, just nafig all around when Katyn was recognized by our DUMA, GDP, experts and VO, and other Elites ...
    1. 123 Offline 123
      123 (123) 7 March 2020 13: 14
      +2
      Everything is clear right away, just nafig all around when Katyn was recognized by our DUMA, GDP, experts and VO, and other Elites ...

      The Duma recognized, so what? Before that, how many years did they not recognize? Shall we stupidly agree with the "party line" or compare facts and think independently?
      For me, for example, it is not at all obvious that this is the work of the NKVD. After 1991, everything that was possible was recognized. The usual story in our country, after the coup, the previous government turns out to be disgusting executioners, and the new one almost angels.
      1. Sergey Latyshev Offline Sergey Latyshev
        Sergey Latyshev (Serge) 7 March 2020 22: 55
        0
        The 91st is long gone ...
        20 years is like GDP.
        If the Ministry of Armed Forces, Putin, and the rest wanted to, they would have figured it out a long time ago.
        1. 123 Offline 123
          123 (123) 7 March 2020 23: 02
          +1
          The 91st is long gone ...
          20 years is like GDP.
          If the Ministry of Armed Forces, Putin, and the rest wanted to, they would have figured it out a long time ago.

          I don’t know if they want to understand or not, maybe the time will come for this. For me, this makes little difference. My opinion is based on the information that I know, and not on the opinion of Putin or any ministries.
  10. Tramp1812 Online Tramp1812
    Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 6 March 2020 18: 15
    0
    There is no doubt that the elite of the Third Reich used the Katyn tragedy for propaganda purposes. But after the declassification of the state archives of Russia concerning the execution of Polish officers in Katyn, the testimony of numerous witnesses in the Russian military prosecutor's office, statements by the Russian leadership about the perpetrators of the tragedy, there is no point in returning to this issue. Anyone can go to the official website of the archive and personally view color photocopies of the original documents stating that the shooting of the captured Poles was carried out by the NKVD. In a special order on the personal initiative of Stalin and Beria. Their signatures, as well as signatures of Molotov, Kabulov, Merkulov, are available. The prisoners, in the spirit of that time, are called "manufacturers, landowners, spies, policemen." The executions were carried out not only in Katyn, but also in Starobelsk and Kalinin. Directly, he led the mass executions and he himself actively participated in the main executioner of the Lubyanka - Blokhin Vasily. He personally shot 20000 people over the years. The President of the Russian Federation VVP told, with reference to official documents, how the mass executions of Poles took place. And to cast a shadow over the wattle fence, when the whole world knows about who committed this crime, there is irrefutable documentary evidence of it, forgive me - it is primitive and not clever. Almost a hundred years have passed. The execution of captured Polish officers has become a historical fact. As, for example, the streltsy execution. After all, no one claims that the archers were executed by the Swedes .... To date, no one has survived from those who took part in the decision on the execution and directly executed. All of them are now in the same company with the executed. I do not see a meaningful beginning of the publication: to kindle passions out of the blue?

    Vladimir Putin: Could Stalin shoot Polish officers near Katyn from revenge?

    https://www.rbc.ru › politics
    1. 123 Offline 123
      123 (123) 7 March 2020 13: 20
      +3
      Anyone can go to the archive’s official website and personally see color photocopies of the original documents stating that the captured Poles were shot by the NKVD.

      What archive do you mean? Share a link with the public, please. hi There will be a subject of conversation, and everything is so foggy.
      1. Tramp1812 Online Tramp1812
        Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 8 March 2020 09: 11
        -3
        I am just eager to share with the "public". Here you go, the first link. If not enough, please let me know, I will send more. Maybe you need a link to detailed explanations on this issue personally by the President of Russia - GDP in 2011? No problem either. As Robert Burns wrote:

        You whistle, I won’t make myself wait.

        You argue against well-known facts. It was not the fascists who shot tens of thousands of Polish officers captured in 1939, but the NKVD, on the initiative of Comrade personally. Stalin and comrade Beria. The only counterargument is: not only 20 thousand innocent Poles were shot by the comrades mentioned above, but also about a million citizens of the USSR, most of them Russians.

        1. 123 Offline 123
          123 (123) 8 March 2020 12: 24
          +3
          I am just eager to share with the "public". Here is the first link. If not enough, let me know, please send more. Maybe you need a link to detailed explanations on this issue personally by the President of Russia - GDP in 2011? No problem either. As Robert Burns wrote: You whistle, I will not keep myself waiting.

          The performance was bright, colorful, with pictures, good but .... all the steam went off the whistle. request Hello to Burns. smile I believe that the link can go to the site, preferably an archive, read the document. According to your picture, I can’t go anywhere, nothing is written on it about the executed Poles. You don’t need to send a link to Putin’s explanations, because we want to go broke ourselves. We consider only documents and facts.

          You argue against well-known facts. It was not the fascists who shot tens of thousands of Polish officers captured in 1939, but the NKVD, on the initiative of Comrade personally. Stalin and comrade Beria.

          What kind of well-known facts do I argue against? belay About twenty years ago, the well-known fact was the shooting of Polish officers by the Germans. yes I would like to look at the facts, read the documents, otherwise those "well-known facts" are too changeable.

          The only counterargument is: not only 20 thousand innocent Poles were shot by the comrades mentioned above, but also about a million citizens of the USSR, most of them Russians.

          Do you consider this a counterargument? laughing Are we at the rally? The slogans here are of no interest to anyone. After all, we ourselves want to calmly understand everything ourselves, and not to overthrow each other, right?
          1. Tramp1812 Online Tramp1812
            Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 8 March 2020 16: 46
            -2
            Who are we, sorry? Go to the official website of the State Archives of Russia? The press of the Soviet Union, known for its "truthfulness," reported both the poisoning doctors and that the Germans had shot Poles. Why don't you deign to believe your President, who, after Yeltsin's death, spoke in detail about the murder of the NKVD at the suggestion of the "father of nations" of captured Poles? Now I will send you a couple of not just links, but the testimony of eyewitnesses of the execution. So that, as Peter the Great said, it was written according to the written word. And everyone could see your level. I can see it, however, already now. Not inspiring.
            1. Tramp1812 Online Tramp1812
              Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 8 March 2020 17: 08
              -2
              Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin, taking part in mourning events dedicated to the 70th anniversary of the tragedy in Katyn, said that all documents relating to the shooting of thousands of Polish officers by the Soviet army in 1940 were declassified, and blamed this crime on Beria and the NKVD.

              "Nothing that would hide the truth about this crime, about the mechanisms of this crime, is not closed with seven seals - everything has been opened and shown, including the million documents that have been transferred to our Polish partners," Putin said in a joint press release. conferences with his Polish counterpart Donald Tusk.

              Some politicians in Poland have repeatedly suggested that Russia is hiding some of the archival documents related to events 70 years ago. According to Putin, all the archives - over a million sheets - were handed over to the Polish side.

              For decades, in a cynical lie, they tried to smear the truth about the Katyn executions, but it would be the same lie and fraud to blame the Russian people for these crimes

              Vladimir Putin, Prime Minister of Russia

              The Russian prime minister laid the blame for the mass execution of Polish officers on the Soviet leadership and personally Beria.

              "These are the leaders of the then security service, the NKVD, Beria, the political leadership," Putin said and suggested that the events in Katyn could be Stalin's personal revenge for the death of 32 thousand Soviet prisoners of war in Polish captivity.

              There can be no excuse for the shooting in Katyn, the Russian prime minister said, emphasizing that one should not blame the killings on the Russian people.
            2. 123 Offline 123
              123 (123) 8 March 2020 17: 16
              +2
              Who are we, sorry?

              You and I, it’s better to speak with arguments, rather than slogans.

              Go to the official website of the state archive of Russia?

              So what is next? Do not even give the title of the document. Do you suggest that I search the archive myself and find confirmation of your point of view? winked

              The press of the Soviet Union, known for its "truthfulness," reported both the poisoning doctors and that the Germans had shot Poles.

              The press of the Soviet Union reported a lot of things, including that which was not there, and, on the contrary, not all reported. By the way, it is far from an exception to the rule that it is naive to consider the press in any country as the ultimate truth.

              Why don't you deign to believe your President, who, after Yeltsin's death, spoke in detail about the murder of the NKVD at the suggestion of the "father of nations" of captured Poles?

              Firstly, I prefer to draw up an opinion on the basis of documents. Secondly, this topic is highly politicized, maybe he just decided for political reasons not to disturb the people with this topic. For some reason, you do not believe your Secretary General, Nikita Sergeevich? After all, it was said to him that the Germans did it.

              Now I’ll give you a couple more not just links, but I’ll send testimony of eyewitnesses to the execution

              Grandfather Tokarev again?

              So that, as Peter the Great said, according to writing it was. And your level was visible to everyone. I can see it, however, now. Not inspiring.

              Are you sure this is an exact quote from Peter I? sad I think it’s premature to judge the level. winked
              1. Tramp1812 Online Tramp1812
                Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 8 March 2020 22: 02
                -2
                1. Nikita Sergeevich Khrushchev - not my Secretary General of the CPSU. I have not been a member of the CPSU for a single day. And he never shared the ideas of Marxism - Leninism.
                2. I sent you to the archive, where the crime of shooting Poles was documented. You send me there too. You are convinced that you are the public. You are convinced that the President of the Russian Federation, who transferred, in his own words, millions of pages of this very archive on the Katyn case to Poland, is publicly telling a lie. Moreover, you think out for him the motive why he does it. I, in turn, like GDP, am convinced by the whole percentage that only exist that the captured Poles were shot by the NKVD by decision of Comrade Stalin and comrade Beria. As in the fact that the totalitarian regime of Stalin is the brother of the Pol Pot regime.
                3. I conveyed the meaning of the quotation of Peter the Great. If I quote for sure, they will ban me.
                1. 123 Offline 123
                  123 (123) 9 March 2020 00: 20
                  +2
                  1. Nikita Sergeevich Khrushchev - not my Secretary General of the CPSU. I have not been a member of the CPSU for a single day. And he never shared the ideas of Marxism - Leninism.

                  Have you been accepted into the party? What is your belief here? Nikita Sergeyevich and his successors were the leaders of your country; they claimed that Katyn was the work of the Germans. You simply believed them, and now, when you started to say something different, did you see the light too?
                  If the example of Khrushchev does not fit, you can correct the question .... Do you believe Zelensky? To every word? If you are not mistaken, are you from Ukraine?

                  2. I sent you to the archive, where the crime of shooting Poles was documented. You send me there too. You are convinced that you are the public.

                  Where does this conclusion come from? I do not pretend to be a media of public opinion; I represent myself exclusively and no more. I have my own opinion.

                  You are convinced that the President of the Russian Federation, who transferred, in his own words, millions of pages of this very archive on the Katyn case to Poland, is publicly telling a lie.

                  I am not a lie detector to determine who is telling the truth and who is not. I prefer to read the documents, and not take a word, which is what I recommend to you.

                  Moreover, you think out for him the motive why he does it.

                  I don’t think it over, I just suggested why he said that. Perhaps he says so simply because he has complete information, there are many options. We see only bits of information and it is unconvincing for me in this form. Today I looked at the Polish version of the published documents, I must say, they are more convincing and do not cause doubts.

                  I, in turn, like GDP, am convinced by all the interest that only exists that the captured Poles were shot by the NKVD by decision of Comrade. Stalin and comrade Beria. As in the fact that the totalitarian regime of Stalin is the brother of the Pol Pot regime.

                  Your beliefs are your own business, I’m not trying to impose others on you. I am talking about the lack of reliable information, and not just believe - I do not believe.

                  3. I conveyed the meaning of the quotation of Peter the Great. If I quote for sure, they will ban me.

                  I must say, the attempt is unsuccessful, the meaning is distorted.
              2. Tramp1812 Online Tramp1812
                Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 8 March 2020 22: 05
                -1
                istmat.info ›

                Developments.
                All results.
                Declassified documents on Katyn | Project "Historical Materials"
                1. Tramp1812 Online Tramp1812
                  Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 9 March 2020 08: 24
                  -1
                  You are wrong. I am not from Ukraine and not from Russia. Had the misfortune of being born in the USSR. But now, fortunately, in the past. I didn’t hear anything about Katyn until the beginning of the 90s. More precisely, as a student at the University in the early 70s, in a documentary book I read the version that the Poles were shot by Germans. Moreover, from the text it was generally not clear how they ended up on the territory of the USSR.
                  But after the "exposure of the black magic session" in the early 90s, I learned a lot: about the winter war, the campaign against Warsaw, simultaneous revolutions in the Baltic countries, the "liberation" of Western Ukraine and Belarus, the Stalinist total terror, Katyn, the heroic battle of the cruiser " Varyag ", collectivization, sabotage in Western countries, international fraternal assistance to Czechoslovakia in 1968, Hungary in 1956, Afghanistan in 1979, state anti-Semitism in the USSR. So, it's not just Katyn. This is just a touch, an episode in the palette of what was happening in the USSR. Natural. And with the hero Pavlik Morozov - an example to follow. Having a higher legal education, I studied very thoroughly, according to the official program, such subjects as the history of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, the theory of state and law, the history of political doctrines, scientific communism, scientific atheism, history of state and law, history and mathematics and diamatics. In addition, of course, special disciplines. Therefore, I can judge what was, what is, and what will be. Let this be my subjective point of view, which has the right to exist, like yours. But it is based on the possession of basic information. In addition, I am convinced that Gorbachev is not to blame for the disappearance of the USSR from the political map of the world. It's just that the country's political system turned out to be unviable. He rested exclusively on repression and had a raw material component. For example, the agriculture of the country was destroyed by Comrade Stalin in rags, and the products of group "B" could not withstand any competition with the countries of decaying capitalism. Empty shelves, empty pockets, massive shortages and repression - that's the whole legacy of the USSR.
                  1. 123 Offline 123
                    123 (123) 9 March 2020 13: 23
                    +2
                    You are wrong. I am not from Ukraine and not from Russia.

                    You have written: "Place of residence - Ukraine hi

                    Had the misfortune of being born in the USSR.

                    Do you mean that "had the misfortune of being born in the USSR "or precisely in the USSR? Was the birth difficult? Or did you immediately" at the exit "realize the full depth of the misfortune that befell you? In fact, you don't choose your homeland, like your parents.

                    But now, fortunately, in the past.

                    It is fortunate for you to naturalize in your new homeland.

                    I didn’t hear anything about Katyn until the beginning of the 90s. More precisely, when I was a student at the University in the early 70s, I read a version in a documentary stating that the Poles were shot by Germans. Moreover, from the text it was generally not clear how they ended up on the territory of the USSR.

                    At the interesting "University" you had the misfortune to study. Probably forced? I hope you didn't have to sell the kidney to pay for the tuition?
                    The version of the shooting of the Poles by the Germans was known to you, did you take everything on faith? There were no doubts? And now they learned a new version about the NKVD and again just believed? Eyes must have opened? winked What, is critical thinking unfamiliar to a person with a university education? request How Poles ended up on the territory of the USSR is, of course, difficult for a simple student to understand. Didn’t you consider the version that they were on a camping trip and got lost? smile

                    But after the "exposure of the black magic session" in the early 90s, I learned a lot: about the winter war, the campaign against Warsaw, simultaneous revolutions in the Baltic countries, the "liberation" of Western Ukraine and Belarus, the Stalinist total terror, Katyn, the heroic battle of the cruiser " Varyag ", collectivization, sabotage in Western countries, international fraternal assistance to Czechoslovakia in 1968, Hungary in 1956, Afghanistan in 1979, state anti-Semitism in the USSR.

                    Did not Kashpirovsky conduct the session? By the way, what's wrong with the Varyag? request There, the commissars of the sailors shot or drove everyone to the collective farm? What a horror belay where did the king-father look? smile

                    This is just a stroke, an episode in the palette of what was happening in the USSR. Natural. And with the hero Pavlik Morozov - an example to follow.

                    You had an interesting childhood. laughing We all know who Pavlik is and what his feat was from childhood, but somehow we did not consider an example to follow. No. Did your fellow students accidentally tease you with a sneak? lol

                    Having a law degree, I very thoroughly studied in the official program such subjects as the history of the CPSU, the theory of state and law, the history of political studies, scientific communism, scientific atheism, the history of state and law, istmatism and diamat. In addition, of course, special disciplines. Therefore, I can judge what was, what is, and what will be.

                    I already have a tear crying not only did he have the misfortune to be born in the USSR, but they also forced scientific communism to be studied, and, of course, drove him to the Komsomol? Forced, probably? yes

                    Therefore, I can judge what was, what is, and what will be.

                    Perhaps I will cause you trauma, but I have to open your eyes even wider, you can judge the past, present and future without studying the history of the party, you have spent your young years in vain. sad

                    Let this be my subjective point of view, which has the right to exist, just like yours. But it is based on the possession of basic information.

                    You did not understand anything from what I wrote? I'm talking about the lack of information, the fragmentary information available does not allow me to say with confidence that the NKVD really did it. I would like to see not only the photographs of the covers of "Criminal Case No. 159", I would also like to look at the text. That is why I asked you to share that "basic information", but somehow the miracle did not happen. request

                    To everything else, I am convinced that it is not Gorbachev who is to blame for the disappearance from the political map of the world of the USSR. It’s just that the country's political system turned out to be unviable

                    This is part of the truth, such Komsomol members with university education who have grown up actively contributed to this. Gorbachev alone cannot do it.

                    He rested solely on repression and had a raw material component.

                    Very exciting yes Please tell us about the "Brezhnev repression". I am afraid that the "raw material component" is not enough for space flights and the creation of nuclear weapons.

                    For example, the agriculture of the country was destroyed by Comrade Stalin in rags, and the products of group "B" could not withstand any competition with the countries of decaying capitalism.

                    Stalin, if anything, died in 1953, agriculture was not up to the mark, but to say that Gorbachev bought wheat in Canada, and Stalin is to blame for this, is stupid. fool The light and processing industries did indeed work disgustingly, but it was wrong to blame Stalin for all this. Are you just deleting 40 years from history? Stalin and immediately Gorbachev?

                    Empty shelves, empty pockets, massive shortages and repression - that’s the whole legacy of the USSR.

                    The conclusion is extremely biased, possibly justified by psychological problems. Try to talk with a psychologist. hi
                    1. Tramp1812 Online Tramp1812
                      Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 9 March 2020 17: 36
                      -1
                      How emotional you are, however. You have "tears in your eyes", "mental trauma" are afraid to inflict. When you read "Mu-mu" for an hour, did you not cry bitterly? Not a single convincing counter argument, but claims ... Well, and of course, Munchausen complexes. In one of your posts: "the public is demanding", "we want to know." Literally in the following, to my question "who is" we "and whether you are the public of all Russia" - literally write: "I am you and me" and "I am not the public". "Manuscripts do not burn", wrote M. Bulgakov. Before you breed contradictions in your own posts, reread. So what about the psychologist - to the wrong address. Aisling. And remember what the great Lenin bequeathed: "Study, study and study again!" To be continued.
                      1. Tramp1812 Online Tramp1812
                        Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 9 March 2020 17: 59
                        0
                        And now on the points of your opus - answer:
                        1. You do not need to look at the profile to find out my place of residence. There are much more reliable methods for this. Including, it is easy for a competent person to poke one single button in a smartphone to determine the actual location of a vis-a-vis. I emphasize - literate. And so, yes, of course: I also have something written on the fence. And there are firewood. Well, if I wrote that the domicile of Ouagadougou, or Kathmandu, then what? You are from one to five for documentary evidence. You don’t even believe your own President. I repeat, you come up with motives for him for which he allegedly tells a lie. Then you think up the word, replace it with the word - I guess. Although if in the context of Alice’s conversation with the Mad Hatter of Lewis Carroll, it’s not the same for you. To be continued.
                      2. plabu Offline plabu
                        plabu 9 March 2020 18: 19
                        0
                        How many letters, but why? bully
                        If at least somehow to explain, in fact, cheating colleagues on the forum with the place of residence you have indicated, then the explanation does not go through, although it is not criminally punishable, and not criminally either, but the odorless sir emits an unpleasant one - first of all for you. .. hi
                      3. Tramp1812 Online Tramp1812
                        Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 9 March 2020 18: 21
                        0
                        2. Due to the indefatigable emotionality and a tendency to pathological fantasies, you undertook to judge that my birth was difficult, and as soon as I was born, I realized all the misfortune to be born in the USSR. My mother’s birth, as I understand it, did you accept or peep? Yes, and interviewed me at the exit? Only honestly. And sober. So yes or no? If so, then you are not entirely adequate. And further dialogue becomes meaningless. Remember the reaction of Ryumin to the monologue of Ivan Homeless. If you, of course, even understand what I mean? If you were not present - then you are a liar. Or just want to translate the discussion that you are trying to lead by emotional attacks - into a squabble. Do you really think that I can’t answer you much more ghastly? Given the difference in our intellects. An order of magnitude and forever. For example, quote Garik Huberman to you.

                        You, as always, are coolly radiant.

                        Look at the ending on Google. I am sure appreciate it. Don't forget to thank. About the Motherland and parents. You yourself wrote that we are not at the rally. So why were you suddenly drawn to Soviet slogans? And with my parents, it's a disaster. Mother, however, was apolitical. But father has always been a notable anti-Soviet. By the way, he was a front-line soldier, a disabled war veteran, an artillery officer, who was awarded the Order of the Red Star, the Patriotic War and the Medal for Military Merit. Battery commander in 1842 on the Voronezh front. So, I have had anti-Sovietism from a young age.
                      4. plabu Offline plabu
                        plabu 9 March 2020 18: 31
                        0
                        Another one with "intelligence superiority")))) laughing wassat bully - only here literacy would tighten first did not interfere - starting from 1842 and ending with imperative forms - "write", and about Guberman - smiled ...
                        PS Be proud of your anti-Sovietism and further, as is typical. hi
                      5. Tramp1812 Online Tramp1812
                        Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 9 March 2020 20: 41
                        -1
                        Quote: 321
                        Another one with "intelligence superiority")))) laughing wassat bully - only here literacy would tighten first did not interfere - starting from 1842 and ending with imperative forms - "write", and about Guberman - smiled ...
                        PS Be proud of your anti-Sovietism and further, as is typical. hi

                        This is shallow, Hobotov. I admit: 1842 is a typo. Considering that my father was wounded at the front in 1942. But where does "literacy" have to do with it? Can't you even tell a grammatical error from a typo or an obvious typo? Although, who would have doubted. And about the imperative mood, you give the whole phrase in context. Then we'll talk. I did not stoop to such trifles. By the way, you have a soft sign in one place in the reflexive verb "to be born" in the context of the question "what does". But, unlike you, I understand that this is a typo. Here you are a globally convinced Stalinist. This is your position. History has judged us. Russia took a different path. But these are not my questions. And you write without spelling errors. And if everything that you have found is a typo, an obvious one, moreover, which is all your arguments, then you are worth a penny on a market day, as a debater. And even insults. We've reached the smells. Do you also order me to remember the classics and cry out, blowing snot. in your manner: "Smells of the Russian spirit!" You won't wait. I remember F. Krivin's fairy tale and an excerpt, I quote: "..... got excited." You will find the name of the animal that is "getting excited" from the aforementioned author, about which, of course, you have not heard. Lord, who am I arguing with ?! To whose level am I sinking ?! Begone, Satan)). Joke. Unobtrusive Jewish humor. Allow me from the hero city of Netanya, the glorious and invincible State of Israel, to congratulate you on the wonderful Jewish holiday of Purim, celebrated today. Do not forget, out of respect for our virtual battles, to get drunk to the position of reese. This is exactly what it is prescribed to do on this cheerful holy day. Every Jew should get drunk so as not to distinguish a black thread from a white one and a Persian from a Jew. Hag Purim Sameach! Lo tismoah lashtot et hayin. Hoshev, she hamesh bakbukim maspik. Ze efshar. Happy Holidays !!!!
                      6. plabu Offline plabu
                        plabu 9 March 2020 21: 52
                        0
                        Quote: Rogue1812
                        Quote: 321
                        Another one with "intelligence superiority")))) laughing wassat bully - only here literacy would tighten first did not interfere - starting from 1842 and ending with imperative forms - "write", and about Guberman - smiled ...
                        PS Be proud of your anti-Sovietism and further, as is typical. hi

                        This is shallow, Hobotov. I admit: 1842 is a typo. Considering that my father was wounded at the front in 1942. But where does "literacy" have to do with it? Can't you even tell a grammatical error from a typo or an obvious typo? Although, who would have doubted. And about the imperative mood, you give the whole phrase in context. Then we'll talk. I did not stoop to such trifles ...

                        But then your colleagues - on Russophobia, anti-Sovietism, anti-Stalinism, etc. they’re not even doing typos very much, but conducting research - who is who, so to speak, but why do I need it?
                        And in this topic ...

                        Quote: Rogue1812
                        ... Here you are, a globally convinced Stalinist. This is your position. History has judged us. Russia went the other way. But these are not my questions. And you write without spelling mistakes. ...

                        I know that I write quite competently enough, and most likely there wouldn’t be any of these posts - if someone didn’t pull you by the keyboard. laughing -

                        ... Do you really think that I can’t answer you, how much more nasty. Given the difference in our intellects. An order of magnitude and forever ...

                        - the post is not a bird, it has already flown out, but if you consider yourself superior to the others, you’ll get it - they wanted to surprise me with Guberman, dream, although it’s cap enough, but I know it personally ...
                        And the distribution of labels by you, such as "Stalinist", does not surprise me anymore - here your colleague is tearing everything, poor fellow, how many times he has already written to him - well, he does not perceive and, more precisely, does not understand ...

                        Quote: Rogue1812
                        ... And if everything that you have found is a typo, an obvious one, moreover, which is all your arguments, then you are worth a penny on a market day, as a debater. And even insults. We've reached the smells. Do you also order me to recall the classics and cry out, blowing snot. in your manner: "Smells of the Russian spirit!" You won't wait. I remember F. Krivin's fairy tale and an excerpt, I quote: "..... got excited." You will find the name of the animal that is "getting excited" from the aforementioned author, about which, of course, you have not heard. Lord, who am I arguing with ?! To whose level am I going down?! ...

                        I’ll drop everything and I’ll tell you here about whom I heard, whom I read, etc., wait, this is not even forbidden to you ... bully
                        And what do you consider a discussion and your arguments - another colleague asks you quite logical questions, and what does he get in return? Almost a set of stamps from a long-hackneyed training manual, and NOT even that ...

                  2. Tramp1812 Online Tramp1812
                    Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 9 March 2020 18: 34
                    0
                    3. A new surge of emotions: "sneak-snake," could not study "History of the CPSU" and everything in the same spirit. Pavlik Morozov, as for me, is the face of that very deceased state, about which you still grieve. And here is my modest person and her place on the course. No, they didn't. He was a boozer, an excellent student, an athlete and almost handsome. He sincerely hated the "history of the KPSS". In that country all the time, this story was being rewritten. Four times. And students were forbidden to use previous textbooks. But I was forced to study. Otherwise, I would not have received a diploma, red, by the way.
                  3. Tramp1812 Online Tramp1812
                    Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 9 March 2020 19: 23
                    0
                    4. Further on, everything is the same for you: petty labels and insults, and the saliva of the lineage from anger. The diagnosis is a Stalinist. It is not treated. However, about agriculture, you can drop a few words. It was the Stalinist collectivization of agriculture that was the foundation of his death in the USSR. In Bulat, 36% of the population was driven into collective and state farms. And empty shelves. And jokes like -

                    - Can a horse ride from Volgograd to Saratov?
                    - Maybe if they don’t eat it in Volgograd.

                    I don’t remember the pristinely empty counters with the “tourist breakfast” all over the wall and cans of “seaweed”. Or I didn't stand in gloomy lines for gray bread, from which water could be squeezed out. And at the same time, 0.5% of owners of private household plots provided 70% of all fruits and vegetables in the country. And the delights of War Communism, and the mass executions of their own citizens? No, never forget these wonderful years. With dancing, dancing, songs!
                  4. Tramp1812 Online Tramp1812
                    Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 9 March 2020 19: 56
                    -1
                    Judging by your posts, you are a person who is interested in the history of your own country, but does not know it. Absolutely. I understand: a difficult, hungry childhood. And ideology: we do not need the sun, the party shines for us. From there, and children's questions about the cruiser "Varyag" and terror during the Brezhnev era. I answer in the order of an educational program, resuming the practice of the reading room. According to "Varyag".
                    1. During the battle at Chemulpo, not a single cruiser shell hit, according to official Japanese figures, enemy ships.
                    2. The ship was sunk in shallow water, a few months later raised by the Japanese. And as a trophy he flew under the Japanese flag as part of the Japanese Navy. Having received the name "Soy".
                    3. The flag of the cruiser "Varyag" was not saved, as it should be according to the Charter, but went to the enemy. It was kept until the early XNUMXs in the museum of the town of Incheon. The surrender of the flag to the enemy entails the disbandment of the unit, if you, as I am sure, are not aware of.
                    4. Sovereign Nikolai the 2nd, also far from being a hero, wanted to bring Captain Rudnev to court for the actions I described. But then he was convinced that for propaganda purposes it is better to make him a legend. And they did.
                    6. I read the wonderful works of "Port Arthur" by Stepanov (in fact, not Stepanov at all, as it later turned out) and "Tsushima" by Novikov-Priboy - the best thing about the Tsushima battle. There the battle of the Varyag is described in the best Soviet traditions. Be happy.
                  5. Tramp1812 Online Tramp1812
                    Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 9 March 2020 20: 06
                    0
                    And finally, the last. Brezhnev repression. What are you talking about - Uncle Sidor? The system was ringing, becoming thinner, according to the Russian nationalist Solzhenitsyn. What kind of repression? The most talented and world-famous people - the pride of all mankind - were expelled from the country, after being slightly mocked. Examples: Sergey Dovlatov, Joseph Brodsky. At the same time, they still managed to condemn the Nobel laureate for parasitism, Dovlatov served a parole, as, indeed, Huberman. Amalrik was put in a psychiatric hospital, writers Daniel and Sinyavsky were put in jail, Jews were not allowed out of the country, having run into Jackson-Vanik law, Sakharov was sent into exile .... But it was already agony. Babble in comparison with what the client of the great Russian psychiatrist Ankylosing spondylitis did.
                  6. 123 Offline 123
                    123 (123) 9 March 2020 21: 41
                    +1
                    And finally, the last. Brezhnev repression. What are you talking about - Uncle Sidor? The system was ringing, becoming thinner according to the words of the Russian nationalist Solzhenitsyn.

                    I dare to repeat the advice, do not read all the muck. I understand that you are a philologist by training? All these arguments can be read for a long time, but it is pointless, this has nothing to do with Stalin.
                2. plabu Offline plabu
                  plabu 9 March 2020 21: 08
                  +1
                  Quote: Rogue1812
                  ... From there, and children's questions about the cruiser "Varyag" and terror during the Brezhnev era. I answer in the order of an educational program, resuming the practice of the reading room. According to "Varyag".
                  1. During the battle at Chemulpo, not a single cruiser shell was struck, according to official Japanese data, enemy ships.
                  2. The ship was flooded in shallow water, a few months later raised by the Japanese. And as a trophy he flew under the Japanese flag as part of the Japanese Navy. Having received the name "Soy".
                  3. The flag of the cruiser "Varyag" was not saved, as it should be according to the Charter, but went to the enemy. It was stored until the beginning of the zero years in the museum of the town of Incheon. The delivery of the flag to the enemy entails the disbandment of the unit if you, of which I am sure, are not aware.
                  4. Sovereign Nikolai the 2nd, also far from being a hero, wanted to bring Captain Rudnev to court for the actions I described. But then he was convinced that for propaganda purposes it is better to make him a legend. And they did.
                  6. I read the wonderful works of "Port Arthur" by Stepanov (in fact, not Stepanov at all, as it later turned out) and "Tsushima" by Novikov-Priboy - the best thing about the Tsushima battle. There the battle of the Varyag is described in the best Soviet traditions. Be happy.

                  What a blessing, the "omniscient" came down to us and, like, opened our eyes to us. laughing
                  What you have written about here, quite a lot of things, as it became NOT yesterday known, but this does not bother your “revelatory” impulse. bully It happens…
                  Continue to continue to sacredly believe in official data, enemy, true, but when such little things confused you, right?
                  But it’s not for you and your kind to climb into what you, judging by your comment, DO NOT have the slightest idea - I'm talking about the Flag of Varyag, LEARN THE MATCH, when and in what cases the ships go to the bottom with the FLAGS raised ...
                  И DO NOT confuse the banner of the unit and the flag of the ship, these are different concepts, and are regulated differently...
                  PS Share your revelations on how you can destroy a ship when you are required to practically NOT blow it up ...
                  Looking forward to your suggestions.
                  PPS In your opus, the FIVE item has gone somewhere, after 4 it goes immediately to 6, why would it ??? hi
                3. 123 Offline 123
                  123 (123) 9 March 2020 21: 31
                  +1
                  Thank you for the short history course, just first explain what the Varyag has to do with Stalin? You are drifting further and further from the topic. I don’t know who you read there, Stepanova or not, what does this have to do with the topic under discussion? You read all sorts of nasty things, then you suffer. Read Semyonov, maybe it will feel better.

                  https://yadi.sk/d/b1_z-Bb93qF9mQ

                  Be happy.

                  Have a nice one you too hi
                4. plabu Offline plabu
                  plabu 9 March 2020 22: 30
                  0
                  As far as I could understand him, he cited "Varyag" as an example of hypocrisy, but his lack of knowledge let him down ...
                5. 123 Offline 123
                  123 (123) 9 March 2020 23: 23
                  +1
                  As far as I could understand him, he cited "Varyag" as an example of hypocrisy, but his lack of knowledge let him down ...

                  Why exactly - it is difficult to judge, apparently, it meant "vyshevrete", in the sense that everything that was told to us about the exploits, in fact, is not true, and all this is propaganda, and the building of our statehood is built on the quicksand of an invented history. The heroes are not the same, the king is not real, in general, repent, accursed ones. winked Apparently, somehow. winked Another more or less imputed connection in the logical chain Stalin - "Varyag" does not occur to me. winked And paragraph 5, probably, should have sounded something like this:

                  The Varyag was built by the Americans, and you yourself only know how to shoot people.
                  lol
                6. Tramp1812 Online Tramp1812
                  Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 10 March 2020 01: 58
                  -1
                  Quote: 321
                  As far as I could understand him, he cited "Varyag" as an example of hypocrisy, but his lack of knowledge let him down ...

                  This is a classic example of hypocrisy. Well, as for the lack of knowledge, this is in their own address. What is the victory of "Varyag"? He left the port of Chemulpo and instead of heroic death in battle, returned to the same port. Sunk in shallow water, not detonated. As a result, it was captured by the Japanese as a trophy practically unharmed. He flew under the Japanese flag in the Navy of the Land of the Rising Sun. And this shame is declared a victory. The capture of the flag from the Varyag by the enemy is also another outstanding feat. The shooting of Polish officers, despite the testimony of 900 witnesses in the Military Prosecutor's Office of the Russian Federation, a million documentary evidence, recognition of the authorship of Stalin and Beria, by the top leadership of Russia is not a Stalinist crime, but German intrigues. I would also like to hear how the White Finnish bandits from Helsinki, with the population of Suomi not reaching up to a million souls, were going to conquer the territory of the USSR up to the Yenisei. Therefore, they attacked the USSR. In the complete absence of manpower, aircraft and tanks. And how the S-300 shows itself in Syria! Thousands, no - tens of thousands of Israeli vultures have already been destroyed by the gallant Syrian air defense. And everything is in the same spirit. For all questions. Cool. I can't find another word. Honestly, I enter the discussion solely in order to have fun. Thank you guys. Don't let you get bored.
                7. plabu Offline plabu
                  plabu 10 March 2020 03: 46
                  0
                  Quote: Rogue1812
                  ... Well, as for the lack of knowledge, this is in your own address. What is the victory of "Varyag"? He left the port of Chemulpo and instead of heroic death in battle, returned to the same port. Sunk in shallow water, not detonated. As a result, it was captured by the Japanese as a trophy practically unharmed. He flew under the Japanese flag in the Navy of the Land of the Rising Sun. And this shame is declared a victory. Capturing the flag from the Varyag by the enemy is also another outstanding feat.

                  You’ve already written about the flag of Varyag, teach the materiel how YOU wouldn’t like this, but there are your own laws and rules that you simply DO NOT KNOW, but just admit that something is in the way - it is in your way, well, continue to plunge into this puddle further and deeper, good luck with that ... bully
                  And if you still try to understand the difference between "victory" and "feat", or "heroism" - well, it will be quite good - for you hi
        2. 123 Offline 123
          123 (123) 9 March 2020 21: 15
          +1
          4. Further on, everything is the same for you: petty labels and insults, and the saliva of the lineage from anger. The diagnosis is a Stalinist. It is not treated.

          I am starting to like this site. yes So many interesting people. fellow I was called a Nazi in a week, they advised me to dump me from my Tsakhal, now I’m a Stalinist ...

          It was the Stalinist collectivization of agriculture that was the foundation of his death in the USSR. In Bulat, 36% of the population was driven into collective and state farms. And empty shelves.

          The foundation, excuse me, whose death? You express yourself incoherently, the thought of the narrative is lost in the fog. What kind of damask are you talking about? It is absolutely incomprehensible, you want to say that the workers were driven into collective farms? So it seems not, before the revolution of peasants in Russia there were at least 75% of the population.

          I don’t remember the pristinely empty counters with the “tourist breakfast” all over the wall and cans of “seaweed”. Or I didn’t stand in gloomy lines for gray bread, from which water could be squeezed out. And at the same time, 0.5% of owners of personal plots provided 70% of all fruits and vegetables in the country.

          Something I do not like your tonality, I praised agriculture? By the way, our bread was white and the lines were not gloomy. laughing

          And the delights of war communism, and the mass executions of their own citizens? No, never forget these wonderful years. With dancing, dancing songs!

          I see, you have a wonderful memory .... maybe you and Lavrenty Pavlovich saw alive? belay
        3. Tramp1812 Online Tramp1812
          Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 10 March 2020 01: 15
          -2
          Quote: 123
          4. Further on, everything is the same for you: petty labels and insults, and the saliva of the lineage from anger. The diagnosis is a Stalinist. It is not treated.

          I am starting to like this site. yes So many interesting people. fellow I was called a Nazi in a week, they advised me to dump me from my Tsakhal, now I’m a Stalinist ...

          It was the Stalinist collectivization of agriculture that was the foundation of his death in the USSR. In Bulat, 36% of the population was driven into collective and state farms. And empty shelves.

          The foundation, excuse me, whose death? You express yourself incoherently, the thought of the narrative is lost in the fog. What kind of damask are you talking about? It is absolutely incomprehensible, you want to say that the workers were driven into collective farms? So it seems not, before the revolution of peasants in Russia there were at least 75% of the population.

          I don’t remember the pristinely empty counters with the “tourist breakfast” all over the wall and cans of “seaweed”. Or I didn’t stand in gloomy lines for gray bread, from which water could be squeezed out. And at the same time, 0.5% of owners of personal plots provided 70% of all fruits and vegetables in the country.

          Something I do not like your tonality, I praised agriculture? By the way, our bread was white and the lines were not gloomy. laughing

          And the delights of war communism, and the mass executions of their own citizens? No, never forget these wonderful years. With dancing, dancing songs!

          I see, you have a wonderful memory .... maybe you and Lavrenty Pavlovich saw alive? belay

          Why do I need Lavrenty Pavlovich alive when I see the offspring of him and his dry-hand companion of the heirs on the site: they also commit a sin like them. In which, interestingly, a country captured almost whole, the trophy cruiser is declared heroic?
        4. plabu Offline plabu
          plabu 10 March 2020 04: 05
          0
          Quote: Rogue1812
          ... Why do I need Lavrenty Pavlovich alive when I see the offspring of him and his dry-hand accomplice of the heirs on the site: they commit a sin like them. In which, interestingly, a country captured almost whole, the trophy cruiser is declared heroic?

          Somewhere here I also slipped about your legal education, of course, at the highest level, but what else - you and your hobby colleagues are all just super, right? bully And about philology, as your profession, I do not presume to evaluate reliability, I am NOT interested in how you earned a living, or earn, but do you have a higher education, according to your words, I don’t confuse anything? bully
          Then it’s time for you to already understand what the cruiser declared, this is NOT the root cause, the root cause is the people, or rather, their behavior - in this case, in battle - but you just don’t understand this, and the gaps in YOUR EDUCATION AND KNOWLEDGE prompt you to write about what you are simply incompetent in - it's about the flag, the banner of the part and the like ... laughing
          And who would write about "breshut" ??? First, read your "creativity". hi
          But in one thing you almost guessed - it’s just howl OUR, and not your past — you, in fact, stupidly refused it, it’s too late for you to rush, it’s already played out - it just won’t come out, you received the shit, you will receive and will continue to receive it. hi
        5. Tramp1812 Online Tramp1812
          Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 10 March 2020 08: 26
          0
          Something bored me in the morning. Let me, I think, will cheer myself up. Let's arrange a small comparative post description. By analogy with Plutarch's "Comparative Biography". Not so strongly written as, say, Engels' Correspondence with Kautsky, or Montaigne's Experiments, but nevertheless it is loyal to Stalin. Because these giants of thought did not know that such a monster, as a paranoid and a criminal of all ages and peoples like Stalin, could come into being. So that you no longer weep over the fate of Gerasim, whom Mu-mu drowned, according to you, I will not even stutter about Orwell and his "Animal Farm", where your favorite Stalin is bred in all its glory. But I digress somewhat. To the barrier! Not only do I have a higher education and a diploma with honors, but I am also a candidate of legal sciences, assistant professor. But in order, savoring your "pitiful babble of excuses."
          From "your" past, I never "stupidly refused" that your next nonsense in the spirit of Stalin and his gang. I did not recognize him and do not recognize him. Like any sane, decent, intelligent and educated person in Russia and 14 former Soviet republics. Fled away from this damned past. And in different directions. What is haunted by Russia today. Stalin's policy led to the collapse of all this, as the Stalinists called it - the camp. By analogy with the GULAG. And all these totalitarian structures themselves fell apart to Aunt Fene. Organization of the Warsaw Pact, CMEA, for example. And all the grave crimes of this regime were revealed. So, the “glorious Stalinist past” is the same fiction and shameless lie, like the shooting of Polish prisoners by the Germans. You also forgot to lie about the fact that in September 1939, these same captured Poles attacked the USSR. Well, just like the "White Finnish bandits" - in the same 1939. It is you and others like you who admit the stupidly bloody Stalinist past. At the level of paranoia. Hallucinations have already begun: your cruiser is a living being. You cry, reading "Mu-mu", Gerasim you feel sorry for. Your tears have filled the whole book in the gateway. Don't cry, sick one, it was not Gerasim who drowned Mu-mu, but Gerasim who drowned Mu-mu. I understand, it is difficult, even impossible, to recognize this unfortunate fact, but let's try. Let's say in syllables: Moo-moo - e-so-ba-chka. Ge-ra-sim - cross-stya-nin. Cray-ser "Av-ro-ra" is not a man, but a warship, which the team led by the commander surrendered to the enemy. Not exploding, but sinking in shallow water. To make it easier to lift. Captain Rudnev, having sent the ship to the enemy along with the flag and allegedly drowning, did not stay on the command bridge, as naval tradition prescribes, but washed away. Once again: the flag of the cruiser sank in shallow water and went to the Japanese as a souvenir, and the captain did not drown, but was washed away. Maybe he tried to drown, but because of the shallow water, it did not work. Because people like Rudnev don't drown. The captured cruiser was renamed "Soya" by the enemy and incorporated into the Imperial Japanese Navy. And for this "feat" Captain Rudnev was awarded. This is, in your opinion, according to the falsehood, a great victory and heroism. You do not feel sorry for Mu-mu, but Gerasim, although the latter drowned Mu-mu, and not vice versa. Because you are sure that Gerasim was drowned by Mu-mu, and the cruiser Varyag died heroically. Drowned like Mu-mu You are a person who does not read books, does not recognize facts. Therefore, I will quote - I am unknown to you Jewish poet Pasternak, Nobel Prize laureate (from which his nonhumans from the elite of the Soviet power were forced to refuse, and he himself was persecuted to death):

          And you yourself cannot defeat defeat from victory ....

          By the way, taking pleasure in demonstrating the superiority of my intellect, I did not put a single minus to you. This is a sign of weakness - to put a minus, intellectual impotence. Well, for me homo sapiens it’s just a sin to laugh at sick people. Which cannot distinguish Gerasim from Mu-mu, and defeat from victory. Above you - that is. What I am doing. And you put the cons. And happy. Boy, in a word. As Sergey Yesenin wrote:

          The boy is so happy, He picks his nose.
          Poke, poke, dear, put your whole finger in there,
          only with such force in your soul do not go to me!

          So I do not receive, but you. From me. In full. Receive - sign. Waiting for an answer to increase appetite, going to have breakfast. Therefore, for winding a mechanical orange according to Burgess. My position is clear: I hate Stalin and the Soviet regime, I despise Rudnev, the NKVD shot the Poles at the personal initiative of Stalin and Beria. We are waiting for (c) another tantrum. Do not forget about my difficult birth and snive-snivel. And minus one.
        6. plabu Offline plabu
          plabu 10 March 2020 08: 52
          0
          Quote: Rogue1812
          ... Not only that, higher education and a diploma with honors are available, I am also a candidate of legal sciences, associate professor ....
          From "your" past, I never "stupidly refused" that your next nonsense in the spirit of Stalin and his gang. I did not recognize him and do not recognize him. Like any sane, decent, intelligent and educated person in Russia and 14 former Soviet republics. Fled away from this damned past. And in different directions. ... By the way, enjoying the demonstration of the superiority of my intellect, I did not give you a single minus. This is a sign of weakness - to put a minus, intellectual impotence. Well, and for me homo sapiens it is simply a sin to laugh at sick people .... So it’s not I who get it, but you. From me. To the fullest. Receive - sign. ...

          How many letters, and to the point of them - almost zeros, someone has officially attached a letter k to his personality - and is happy like an elephant)))) Take a rest, intellectual, like, thank God that not ours - I have TWO letters etc., instead of, or rather complementing, your one letter "k", so forget about the superiority of your intellect bully By the way, there are still additives to these letters, but I will not decipher them in detail, it is NOT included in my plans at all ...
          And it’s good that you scattered like that — though you already wrote about it before scattering, robbing to the maximum, albeit to the maximum, you already gave an example of the opposite, it was more honest - BUT when did your brother honestly play? That's right, never - you don’t know how to do this and, most importantly, don’t like it) like, they all owe you - yeah, shchazz)))) hi
          And what do you even see, even hate, it doesn’t matter to me at all ... well, I already wrote, read it earlier, and consider further that the cons are from me, there are many people passing by, but your brain does not withstand such a load for a long time. .. bully
          PS First, count your convolutions, and here a little lower your colleague in Russophobia, Rambover, already wrote what I’m doing and will continue to do - so let’s see what all this will lead to in the end ...
          PPS Have you already got out of the puddle with the Varyag? - well, there is about the banner, the flag and the difference between them? And we are waiting for suggestions on how your "mighty intellecht" will figure out how to get out of the situation in which Rudnev found himself, otherwise it is quite simple to quote quotes, but to DO anything - here it is always more difficult for your brothers, we are waiting ...
        7. 123 Offline 123
          123 (123) 10 March 2020 11: 06
          +1
          Tramp 1812, did you not learn laconicism? This is a comment, tea, do not defend a dissertation. There are many letters, the content is close to zero. Thanks for the lecture, very informative. yes Apparently, now I know that Gerasim differed from Mu-mu not only by the length of his beard, and that Pasternak is a writer, not a plant, and captain Rudnev inflicted a deep, non-healing spiritual wound on you as a child.
          Will we discuss the topic or Yesenin quote? Try to stop the tantrum and briefly and clearly state the essence of the claims, otherwise, I see, the cruisers come to life.
          By the way, the award does not make its owner a genius, it's all from vanity, ingenious things are not done for money. When Perelman was asked why he refused the prize, he replied -

          I know how to control the universe. And tell me - why should I run after a million ?!

          In general, try to calm down, dine, sleep and state your thoughts clearly, briefly and essentially, focus on the main thing, without worries, who puts the pros and cons to whom.
    2. 123 Offline 123
      123 (123) 10 March 2020 10: 35
      +1
      Why do I need Lavrenty Pavlovich alive when I see the offspring of him and his dry-hand companion of the heirs on the site: they also commit a sin like them. In which, interestingly, a country captured almost whole, the trophy cruiser is declared heroic?

      Perhaps this will be news for you, but Brest Fortress and Sevastopol were also captured. Heroism is not measured by the outcome of the battle. You didn’t read books in childhood. No.
      This is the way a person works that he will always find an excuse, abandoned the country - live your life, maybe you are more comfortable feeling like a fighter against the regime and telling yourself that you were a swineherd in a foreign land, because everyone lied to you from childhood.
      This is no longer your homeland, and it is not worth pouring mud over the memory of those who died in battle while protecting it.
      You can continue to tell that the Japanese fired at idle, and dozens of sailors died from a broken heart or old age, and the Koreans kept the flag as a relic, solely due to their own stupidity and under the influence of Soviet propaganda. A lot is allowed on the Internet, the chance to get on the physiognomy is minimal.
  11. 123 Offline 123
    123 (123) 9 March 2020 21: 01
    +1
    I don’t quite understand if you are complaining or showing off.
  12. 123 Offline 123
    123 (123) 9 March 2020 21: 00
    +1
    I suppose you shouldn’t drag your mother here. No. And in general, will we talk in essence of the issue or will we continue to quote the classics, and analyze your pedigree and psychoemotional state? You, if anything, chew on a validolchik, calm down. yes
  13. Tramp1812 Online Tramp1812
    Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 10 March 2020 01: 36
    -1
    Quote: 123
    I suppose you shouldn’t drag your mother here. No. And in general, will we talk in essence of the issue or will we continue to quote the classics, and analyze your pedigree and psychoemotional state? You, if anything, chew on a validolchik, calm down. yes

    And what about you - illiterate, to talk on the essence of the question, if I am facts, and you drag my mother in response, and then attribute this verbiage to me. I mean that the cruiser Varyag went after the "outstanding battle" under the Japanese flag as a trophy, and you tell me that this is enemy propaganda. I mean that Stalin is a criminal who killed millions of his own citizens. You, that this is the leader of all times and peoples. The entire political leadership of the Russian Federation has already recognized the shooting of Polish officers of the NKVD, Soviet archives of a million pages were transferred to Poland. You: Putin is not telling the truth. And even you, and who else knows why. I am compelled to quote again M. Bulgakov:

    You are sick, Igemon.

    In response, I’ll hear now that the cruiser Varyag with Stalin on the deck successfully stormed Washington. Or something like that. There is nothing to hide except a heart-rending cry. I write that Pavlik Morozov - and it was not by chance that Stalin made him a hero. Like a soul mate. You answered that I was a sneak on the course. And on emoticons stick out your tongue. So I'm worried about your mental health. Interestingly, have you reached the age of majority? However, the question is rhetorical.
  14. 123 Offline 123
    123 (123) 10 March 2020 11: 33
    +1
    And what about you - illiterate, to talk on the essence of the question, if I am facts, and you drag my mother in response, and then attribute this verbiage to me. I mean that the cruiser Varyag went after the "outstanding battle" under the Japanese flag as a trophy, and you tell me that this is enemy propaganda. I mean that Stalin is a criminal who killed millions of his own citizens. You, that this is the leader of all times and peoples.

    Do not you think that you are slipping into a bestial state, ridiculous accusations and outright lies? Since you love to quote, make an effort on yourself and try to quote me.

    1. Where did I start talking about your mother?

    and in return you drag my mother in, and then ascribe this verbiage to me.

    2. Where did I say that "Varyag" did not fly the Japanese flag?

    I mean that the cruiser Varyag went after the "outstanding battle" under the Japanese flag as a trophy, and you tell me that this is enemy propaganda.

    3. Where did I say that Stalin is not a criminal, but a leader of all times and peoples?

    I mean that Stalin is a criminal who has ruined millions of his own citizens. You, that this is the leader of all times and peoples.

    The entire political leadership of the Russian Federation has already recognized the execution of Polish NKVD officers, the Soviet archives have been transferred to Poland in a million pages. You: Putin is telling a lie. And even you, and who else knows - why.

    Unlike you, I do not blindly believe in the political leadership, but prefer to believe my own eyes. As I recommend to you, there will be less disappointments in life. I am extremely happy for the Poles, who were given copies of the case materials, but why am I worse than the Poles? I also want to look at these "millions of pages" and independently form my own opinion on this issue. You yourself were crucified here, how they lied to you from childhood and what a disappointment for you the discovery of the truth was. And now you want me to follow your example? There is not an ounce of sanity in this.

    Forced to quote M. Bulgakov again

    You have more quotes than your words, maybe you just have nothing to say yourself?

    In response, I’ll hear now that the cruiser Varyag with Stalin on the deck successfully stormed Washington. Or something like that. There is nothing to hide except a heart-rending cry. I write that Pavlik Morozov - and it was not by chance that Stalin made him a hero. Like a soul mate. You answered that I was a sneak on the course. And on emoticons stick out your tongue. So I'm worried about your mental health. Interestingly, have you reached the age of majority? However, the question is rhetorical.

    You are again slipping into outright lies. I have already given three similar examples above, I can continue.
    Question number 4. Kindly quote where exactly I raised the topic of "Varyag".
    Question number 5. Do not you think that you are describing a fictional conversation? Kindly quote yours where they said that Stalin did not accidentally make Pavlik a hero? The original sounded like this:

    So, it’s not only in Katyn. This is just a stroke, an episode in the palette of what was happening in the USSR. Natural. And with the hero Pavlik Morozov - an example to follow.

    Based on the foregoing, the conclusion that Pavlik is a role model for you is quite logical and justified. You yourself said that you believed everything.
    So I advise you to worry about your own mental health. hi
  15. Tramp1812 Online Tramp1812
    Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 10 March 2020 13: 36
    0
    Priests, stop talking!

    (I. Ilf. E. Petrov 12 chairs).
    Here - ale-op your words:

    Do you mean that "had the misfortune to be born in the USSR" or in the USSR? Was the birth difficult? Or did you immediately "at the exit" realize the full depth of the misfortune that befell you?

    It was not you who gave birth to me, but my mother. So I asked, why the hell are you dragging my mother into the subject of the shooting of Poles by the NKVD? And on all other points the same. The principle of your discussion is shameless lies, demagoguery and insults. Here I am writing that the cruiser "Varyag", sunk safe and sound in shallow water by her own team and thus surrendered to the enemy, cannot be considered a model of military duty. By the way, if it were so, the tsarist government, having bought the Varyag from the Japanese, would not have sent it to scrap metal, but immortalized. Like the communists "Aurora". So no, to admit, to argue hunting. Before vomiting. Moreover, incorrect comparisons of the flight of "Varyag" from the battlefield, with the subsequent surrender to the enemy with a real feat of the heroes of the Brest Fortress. There, Soviet soldiers and officers held defenses in the rear of the Germans and did not retreat. In the case of the "Varyag": they left the bay and entered again, the ship was drowned in shallow water, and they themselves washed away. If Stalin is valuable to you, as a leader, as a leader, then it means that you share the template about him as the leader of all times and peoples. Pavlik Morozov is the face of the time when denunciations and mass executions of innocent people were honored. If you are a Stalinist, then Pavlik Morozov, as a showcase of this regime, should be recognized. And neither to the village nor to the city to call me a sneak-snub on the course. You don't even know in which city I graduated from the University. And draw conclusions. In the end: are you a Stalinist or where? Did I write nonsense that I felt sorry for Gerasim and I cried, I already ruined the book? You wrote, although you had to feel sorry for the unfortunate dog Mu-mu. Which Gerasim drowned. And to raise the question of bringing him to criminal responsibility for cruelty to animals.
    And for each of your claims the same thing. They have already accused me that before leaving for their historical Motherland, I robbed the country. Which, by the way, at that moment was not there. Refer to the court verdict against me that has entered into legal force. You, unlike me, are lying, and even so emotionally. Therefore, there is nothing for me to beads in front of whom - you yourself understand, toss. And therefore I post: Tired! I'd rather go ashore of our Jewish Mediterranean Sea. I will look into its vast expanses and be sad about the tragic fate of 22 thousand Polish officers who were innocently killed by Stalin and his executioners, headed by Vasily Blokhin.
  16. 123 Offline 123
    123 (123) 10 March 2020 14: 52
    +2
    You did not give birth to me, but my mother. So I asked, why the hell did you drag my mother into the subject of the execution of the Poles of the NKVD?

    Perhaps my vision fails, but in the phrase

    Do you mean that "had the misfortune to be born in the USSR" or in the USSR? Was the birth difficult? Or did you immediately "at the exit" realize the full depth of the misfortune that befell you?

    “I don’t see a single mention of your mother.” It’s not my fault that your strange logic reached her. request

    And on all other points the same.

    As I understand it, four more facts of lies can be considered confirmed? Shame on you?
    "Varyag" has nothing to do with this issue. There is no desire to talk with you on abstract topics.
    Your attempts to label me as a Stalinist are ridiculously ridiculous. laughing

    And for each of your claims the same thing. They have already accused me that before leaving for their historical Motherland, I robbed the country.

    Please provide a quote. sad If I'm not mistaken, this is the sixth lie in a day. yes Are you a liar or just crazy? fool

    You, unlike me, are lying, and even so emotionally.

    Ascribing to the opponent all his sins and blaming his own actions is typical behavior for the inhabitants of Ukraine in the "post-coup" period. yes

    And therefore I post: Tired! I'd rather go ashore of our Jewish Mediterranean Sea. I will look into its vast expanses and be sad about the tragic fate of 22 thousand Polish officers who were innocently killed by Stalin and his executioners, headed by Vasily Blokhin.

    As I understand it, did you have a lunch break? That's right, relax, calm down, gain strength, you have a lot of work, Russian-speaking attendants in the Mediterranean resorts are in great demand, and the season is just beginning. lol
  17. plabu Offline plabu
    plabu 10 March 2020 21: 13
    +1
    Quote: Rogue1812
    ... So I write that the cruiser "Varyag", sunk safe and sound in shallow water by her own crew and thus surrendered to the enemy, cannot be considered a model of military duty. By the way, if it were so, the tsarist government, having bought the Varyag from the Japanese, would not have sent it for scrap ...

    After that, ALL of your writings are worthless even on a market day - teach the materiel what, when, where and why ...

    Quote: Rogue1812
    ... They have already accused me that before leaving for their historical Motherland, I robbed the country. Which, by the way, at that moment was not there. Refer to the court verdict against me that has entered into legal force. You, unlike me, are lying ...
  18. 123 Offline 123
    123 (123) 9 March 2020 20: 49
    +1
    Including, it is easy for a literate person to poke one single button in a smartphone to determine the actual location of a vis-a-vis.

    Why do I need to determine your location? We indicated Ukraine, from which we proceed ... or are you earning money in an interesting country? Well, I'm not interested, request if you want, write yourself where the cows are grazing. smile

    Something is written on my fence too. And there are firewood.

    And it never occurred to you that the neighbors, when they painted the fence, did not mean firewood, but the owner? winked

    You are from one to five for documentary evidence.

    You exaggerate a little, so we get to the notarization. winked I just would like to draw conclusions based on real facts, not just believe someone’s words. Your university education is rushing out. yes Lenin, Turgenev, Carroll, so soon you will begin to quote Marshak.
  19. 123 Offline 123
    123 (123) 9 March 2020 20: 36
    +2
    How emotional you are, however. You have "tears in your eyes", "mental trauma" are afraid to inflict. When you read "Mu-mu" for an hour, did you not cry bitterly?

    I didn’t read further than a third page, letters from tears blurred, Gerasim felt sorry. sad

    Not a single convincing counter argument, but claims ... Well, and of course, Munchausen complexes. In one of your posts: "the public demands", "we want to know." Literally in the following, to my question "who is" we "and whether you are the public of all Russia" - literally write: "I am you and me" and "I am not the public".

    Eka hooked on you. what Come back, re-read again, try to understand the meaning of the written.

    "Manuscripts do not burn", wrote M. Bulgakov. Before you breed contradictions in your own posts, reread.

    I can provide this pleasure to you, you can even copy everything and re-read it to your health, there will not be enough - contact, I will write.

    And remember what the great Lenin bequeathed: "Study, study and study again!" To be continued.

    You quote interesting classics, yes based on your beliefs, of course. smile By the way, the meaning of the quote is unclear who should learn what and what? Or just decided to show off erudition? smile
  20. Tramp1812 Online Tramp1812
    Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 10 March 2020 08: 41
    0
    You quote interesting classics, yes based on your beliefs, of course. smile By the way, the meaning of the quote is unclear who should learn what and what? Or just decided to show off erudition? smile

    You have to study. Read for a start, do not start crying on the “third” page. ”Maybe further than this very third page, then master Orwell and Sudoplatov, Orlov and Bazhanov, E. Ginzburg and Razgon, M. Lyubimov and Gordievsky, Rapoport and Rybakov, Montaigne and Campanella, Daniel and Sinyavsky, Brodsky and Mandelstam. And then, you look, and learn to think. To begin with, I still recommend "Moo" to master. Read more "thirds" of the page. What if it works out?
  21. plabu Offline plabu
    plabu 10 March 2020 09: 05
    +1
    A considerable number of the authors who are listed here are on the shelves, and with the autographs of the authors, well, it’s not always my merit, someone else had a hand in this, but you don’t need to know this - but continue to boast about that kind of set, You might think that you wrote it, but what does this testify to - in your plan? Well, why do you need to spoil your appetite, then somehow))) on occasion ...