What did Joseph Stalin give Russia

December 21, 1879 in a small town called Gori (Tiflis province) in the family of a shoemaker Vissarion Dzhugashvili the third son was born. At that time, little Joseph, like most children of the lower class of the Russian Empire, did not even have the slightest chance of a bright future.


There is no God in the church


The mother of the future leader Ekaterina Georgievna believed that the path of the priest could be the best fate for her offspring. So, little Joseph Dzhugashvili got into the four-year Gori Theological School, which he subsequently graduated with honors.

Then the boy entered the Tiflis Theological Seminary, where, in addition to specialized church subjects, he became acquainted with history, as well as mathematics, French and German.

It sounds paradoxical. But it was at the seminary that Joseph Dzhugashvili realized that there was no God in the church. On the contrary, the struggle for justice and equality is not in its competence.

The birth of a new era


However, training at the seminary gave the future leader an education. And most importantly, the understanding that there is another reality in the world where a person can be blessed without waiting for death.

At the age of 15, inspired by Marxism, young Joseph chooses the path of a revolutionary. After a short period of time, the son of the shoemaker Vissarion Dzhugashvili becomes a member of the Social Democratic organization.

For the promotion of new ideas among workers, the young man is expelled from the seminary at the last bite of study. And then - May Day celebrations, prisons, links, strikes. However, nothing could stop the young revolutionary. In his opinion, a world where units suck out all the juices from millions should be destroyed.

And he was destroyed. It was then that everyone learned about Joseph Stalin.

Great Leader Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin


In the 29 years that Stalin headed the Soviet Union, the following were built on the ruins of a country destroyed by imperialist and civil wars: 364 new cities, 9000 large enterprises were opened, dozens of power plants were launched, and dependence on imports decreased. The concept of unemployment has almost completely disappeared. People became available: education, science, medicine, culture and art.

The Soviet people won by incredible work, will and selflessness the victory in the most terrible war in history. And after it, he again restored the country in just a few years.

They went to work and fight with the name of Joseph Stalin. His wisdom and foresight was highly appreciated by all his contemporaries, including sworn enemies.

And what now?


Today, expensive foreign cars cut through the streets of our capital, precisely that former great Stalinist Moscow. Their owners report from the stands about price increases, inflation, a difficult situation, sanctions, and according to many years of tradition, they ask for a little patience. But at the same time people should be happy. After all, we do not have the Gulag!

However, it is the absence of those Stalin's labor camps that saves the current elite, thanks to the "effective management" of which our country over the past 30 years has been plunging more and more into poverty, turning into a storehouse of its and other people's waste, including nuclear.

And finally ...


The industry, which, starting in 1947, was restored at a tremendous pace after the Great Patriotic War and developed further, is now almost completely destroyed. And this is in peacetime.

The current "gentlemen" boast of an atomic bomb. But it was also developed during the Stalin era. As, in fact, astronautics, nuclear energy, shipbuilding and aircraft manufacturing, military-industrial complex, science, culture. At the same time, “effective managers” are afraid to even pronounce his name aloud.

Man lived a great goal. He wanted to build a world where everything created by people should go to them. And he built it.
Personally, Joseph Stalin did not leave anything. Apparently, this is what causes panic in the current "rulers" of Russia.

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  1. Oleg Rambover Offline
    Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 15 January 2020 11: 18
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    Under 40 million corpses of Soviet citizens he gave.
    I am not enthusiastic about modern effective managers, but under Stalin's effective managers, Soviet citizens starved to death and starved to death.
    1. 321 Offline
      321 (321) 15 January 2020 14: 39
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      Quote: Oleg Rambover
      Under 40 million corpses of Soviet citizens he gave.
      I am not enthusiastic about modern effective managers, but under Stalin's effective managers, Soviet citizens starved to death and starved to death.

      So far you have surpassed all, well, or almost all - almost, because on Echo one, speaking, spoke about billions at all -

      ...- And where did the supposedly "declassified data of the State Planning Commission" about 41 million dead come from?
      - I think from the anniversary collection of state statistics, which came out on the occasion of the 70th anniversary of the Victory. For the first time, previously closed data of the State Planning Commission and the State Statistics Service of the USSR were brought in it. Including - the difference between the actual number of the Soviet Union at the beginning of 1946 and the hypothetical. It included both direct, irretrievable losses of the army and population, as well as demographic losses. That is, they suggested what would be the country's population if the dead not only survived, but also gave birth to offspring.
      Simply put, the figure of "41 million" includes 26 million real losses, and 15 million children not born during the war..."(from)

      Read at your leisure, maybe you will learn at least something ...
      ENOUGH ALREADY BIKES TO DISTRIBUT ABOUT FORTY MILLIONS OF CORPS - LEARN THE MATCH !!!
    2. dymdum Offline
      dymdum (dymdum) 15 January 2020 14: 43
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      Quote: Oleg Rambover
      Under 40 million corpses of Soviet citizens he gave.

      Otkel, dear, such figures (40 million)? Solzhenitsyn had more! Looks like they rewrote manuals ...)) I will tell you more! Those. "effective managers" who built capitalism on our ball in two world wars killed more than 100 million of the world's population! And this figure is much more objective than your 40 million during the construction of socialism, just your figure is absolutely false. By the way, the problem of reducing the population before the modern "effective" and now stands ... After the destruction of the Union, few people consider the number of deaths purely in wars, and the bill is already going to millions. So do not worry, allow yourself to admire the capitalist reality :-)
      1. 321 Offline
        321 (321) 15 January 2020 15: 27
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        What do you want from those who are trying to carry the liberal idea to the masses?
        Moreover, this option is not the most brutal -

        .May 8, 2010 Deputy Chairman of the Memorial Society Nikita Petrovwho voiced the Terrible Truth on the air of Echo of Moscow:

        You just need to take into account the fact that under Yezhov during the years of great terror, those same massive operations NKVD was arrested over one and a half thousand million people

        - and several times repeating the figure at the request of a stunned host:

        N. BOLTYANSKAYA: Well, here another question arises. Now, the very wave of concessions that went with him, was this a demonstration of what his predecessor, so to speak, screwed up? What did his predecessor conduct such counter-revolutionary or anti-state activities? Because, after all, they write a lot about the fact that when Beria appeared, they let someone out.
        N. PETROV: No, no. This really happened, but the reason here is not at all that Lavrenty Pavlovich turned out to be good or that Stalin suddenly suddenly got in touch. You just need to take into account the fact that under Yezhov during the years of great terror, the very mass operations of the NKVD, more than one and a half thousand million people were arrested.
        N. BOLTYANSKAYA: “Thousands of millions”?
        N. PETROV: One and a half thousand million were arrested from July 1937 to November 1938.
        N. BOLTYANSKAYA: So these are crazy numbers.
        N. PETROV: Yes. About 100 thousand people a month approximately.
        N. BOLTYANSKAYA: Is this also confirmed?
        N. PETROV: Of course. This is confirmed, statistics are published.
        N. BOLTYANSKAYA: It’s just that after each program they write to us that “you are lying.”
        N. PETROV: Well, I understand that people can lie. But let them then read those documents that were published at least in the International Fund for Democracy.
        N. BOLTYANSKAYA: Fifteen hundred million arrested?
        N. PETROV: Yes, one and a half thousand million arrested.
        N. BOLTYANSKAYA: Fiction ... "(c)

        After the advertisement, Petrov corrected his figure, BUT how many people had already turned off the radio BEFORE his amendment ...

        And so these "numbers" appear
      2. Rusa Offline
        Rusa 15 January 2020 16: 38
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        Good publication, respect to the author. Churchill, a contemporary of Stalin, correctly said about him that he accepted the country with a plow, and left it with atomic weapons.
        Stalin is an outstanding figure of world scale, at the head of which the Soviet people for the first time in the world built a socialist state, defeated the Third Reich and hoisted the Victory Banner over Berlin. Soviet people, under the leadership of their leader, created such an economic and scientific foundation that the present descendants still use its fruits.
        It is time to clear the chaff from the grains, return the name of the great Stalin to the city on the Volga and set his portrait opposite the mausoleum on Red Square during the Parade in honor of the 75th anniversary of the Victory.
    3. S.V.YU Offline
      S.V.YU 15 January 2020 17: 14
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      Who told you about 40 million corpses? Already five hundred million innocently killed!
    4. The comment was deleted.
    5. Regis Offline
      Regis (Sergey Kopan) 6 March 2020 11: 48
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      You are directly Ukrainian President Yushchenko or the possessed Solzhenitsyn "50-100 miles ... innocent killed" or "Memorial", who publicly confessed to juggling figures and facts. And how the prosecutor’s office began to check, count, it turns out "zilch" with the murdered and who killed .. You froze, my dear man, in the 90s, on the pages of the magazine "Spark" from the American agent Korotich.
      1. Oleg Rambover Offline
        Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 6 March 2020 11: 54
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        So you woke up. Below is, but I will repeat it specially for you.

        600 thousand dispossession.
        7 million famines during collectivization.
        700 thousand victims of great terror.
        1,5 million died in the camps.
        27 million victims of the Second World War.
        From 0,5 to 1,5 million hunger 48 years.
        Total 37-38 million people.
        1. Regis Offline
          Regis (Sergey Kopan) 6 March 2020 13: 02
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          What to talk about with you? Read, everything is written in the previous comment ....
          1. Oleg Rambover Offline
            Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 6 March 2020 13: 38
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            Quote: Regis
            What to talk about with you?

            So with you especially nothing. You can’t refute these figures anyway. And your lyrics in the previous comment are about nothing.
            1. Regis Offline
              Regis (Sergey Kopan) 6 March 2020 13: 43
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              All these figures have long been refuted. For there is fiction from people, figures that do not understand and are not able to understand. Yes, I agree in advance that your comment will be, as in the market, the last.
              1. Oleg Rambover Offline
                Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 6 March 2020 14: 31
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                It is in your fantasies they are refuted.

                https://www.interfax.ru/russia/479070

                https://duma.consultant.ru/documents/955838?items=1&page=1

                http://opisi.garf.su/pdf/gulag4/04.pdf

                http://istmat.info/node/17751

                Most of these figures are officially recognized by the Russian authorities.
                1. Regis Offline
                  Regis (Sergey Kopan) 6 March 2020 15: 49
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                  This is your trouble .... You are a slave. And you need to have your head on your shoulders, and not grab the first plausible version, and even approved by the authorities. Try to step over your complexes and get acquainted with the opposite point of view. And not with foam at the mouth rush at all those who disagree with you. I gave you a hint that the founder of the "memorial" admitted to falsifying these figures. But you do not hear and do not see. Therefore, I do not give you figures, with links to ARCHIVES, and not to liberal nonsense. There is no need to defend Stalin. He himself copes with this even after death. Any donkey can kick a dead lion. Especially if the donkey does not know what responsibility is and what it is to make decisions. If you are not interested in boring archival information, find at least Elena Prudnikova’s book Lenin - Stalin: The Technology of the Impossible. Maybe you will understand something and begin to move on. The short path and information lying on the surface is not the most accurate. It always will be and it was. Sorry, but you look very stupid.
                  1. 321 Offline
                    321 (321) 6 March 2020 22: 33
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                    He likes this "position", but the fact that it has almost nothing to do with reality - and when such critics interested such trifles ...
                  2. Oleg Rambover Offline
                    Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 7 March 2020 02: 38
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                    Quote: Regis
                    This is your trouble .... You are a slave.

                    And you, as I understand it, “lead”, form historical concepts? Do you climb dusty archives yourself? Or directly get information from space?

                    Quote: Regis
                    And you need to have your head on your shoulders, and not grab the first plausible version, and even approved by the authorities.

                    I listened with interest to various interpretations of those events and chose the one that has the least imagination (as, say, Zhukov) and the most documentary evidence. You would be interested in the question and then you would not read all sorts of things.

                    Quote: Regis
                    And not with foam at the mouth rush at all those who disagree with you.

                    It is strange, as far as I remember, that you answered my comment, called Yushchenko the possessed, and did not even try to somehow argue your position.

                    Quote: Regis
                    I gave you a hint that the founder of the "memorial" admitted to falsifying these figures. But you do not hear and do not see.

                    There are so many documents confirming these victims that falsified something of a "memorial" or not does not fundamentally affect the overall picture. I brought you links including archival documents, but you did not even bother to look at them.

                    Quote: Regis
                    Therefore, I do not give you figures, with links to ARCHIVES, and not to liberal nonsense.

                    You yourself understood that you wanted to say something.

                    Quote: Regis
                    There is no need to defend Stalin. He himself copes with this even after death. Any donkey can kick a dead lion. Especially if the donkey does not know what responsibility is and what it is to make decisions.

                    I hope you do not become like donkeys, and do not criticize Khrushchev, in which Soviet citizens stopped starving and the Union really became a superpower, or Yeltsin, the founder of the current Russian Federation?

                    Quote: Regis
                    If you are not interested in boring archival information, find at least Elena Prudnikova’s book Lenin - Stalin: The Technology of the Impossible.

                    The first page of this book is a lie. Churchill never said:

                    He took Russia with a plow, and left with an atomic bomb.

                    The Fuhrer was going to put at his disposal the best castle of the Third Reich as the most comfortable prison in the world ...

                    What?!!!
                    Did you really like this nonsense?
                    Read it better:

                    http://opisi.garf.su/pdf/gulag4/04.pdf

                    Here, without any fantasies, some documents.

                    Quote: Regis
                    Sorry, but you look very stupid.

                    Judging by your choice of literature, you are definitely not Spinoza.
                    I’m wondering why the Stalinists, that you, that 321, are not able to conduct an argumented discussion, but always slide into banal rudeness? This only indicates the weakness of your position and the inability to defend it.
                    1. 321 Offline
                      321 (321) 7 March 2020 06: 14
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                      Quote: Oleg Rambover
                      ... And you, as I understand it, "lead", form historical concepts? Do you climb dusty archives yourself? Or do you get directly information from space? ...

                      In your interpretation, this, of course, is not rudeness small everyday, but, apparently, is a subtle humor, right? bully
                      I have to upset you - your attempts to portray humor are unsuccessful, so before you write about rudeness of others, pay attention to yourself, first - in a translation specially for you -

                      ... before telling someone about the mote in their eyes, remove the log from your eye ...

                      And I really visited the archives, and not only domestic, but you?

                      Quote: Oleg Rambover
                      ... I listened with interest to various interpretations of those events and chose the one that has the least imagination (as, say, Zhukov) and the most documentary evidence. You would ask a question, and then you wouldn’t read all sorts of things ...

                      Somehow, your choice always focuses on the fact that then everything was bad, why would it? laughing

                      Quote: Oleg Rambover
                      ...
                      Quote: Regis
                      Therefore, I do not give you figures, with links to ARCHIVES, and not to liberal nonsense.

                      You yourself understood that you wanted to say something ...

                      And again, someone is to blame for you, that it is you who are not able to understand the meaning ...

                      Quote: Oleg Rambover
                      ...
                      Quote: Regis
                      There is no need to defend Stalin. He himself copes with this even after death. Any donkey can kick a dead lion. Especially if the donkey does not know what responsibility is and what it is to make decisions.

                      You, I hope, do not become like donkeys, and do not criticize Khrushchev, in which Soviet citizens stopped starving and the Union really became a superpower, or Yeltsin, the founder of the current Russian Federation? ...

                      Hope, but criticize, and not only them. And for what purpose are you interested in?

                      Quote: Oleg Rambover
                      ... Judging by your choice of literature, you are definitely not Spinoza.
                      I’m wondering why the Stalinists, that you, that 321, are not able to conduct an argumented discussion, but always slide into banal rudeness? This only speaks of the weakness of your position and not the ability to defend it.

                      Well, whoever wrote about Spinoza here, with such a level of at least grammar ...
                      And it has already been reported to you, and more than once, that discussion requires at least a minimum, basic level of knowledge, but you continue to try to discuss in the absence of one — and who cares, figuratively speaking, to teach the alphabet?
                      And who do you think me is - to me a light bulb, you and your colleagues are NOT one of those whose opinion is important and interesting to me.
                      And it has already been written more than once that for some reason you seek to criticize ONLY - without even mentioning a half-word about the pros or achievements, which this position testifies to, you have to find out yourself ...
  2. Radikal Offline
    Radikal 15 January 2020 12: 52
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    Quote: Oleg Rambover
    Under 40 million corpses of Soviet citizens, he gave ...

    You personally saw them, and counted? sad
    1. Oleg Rambover Offline
      Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 15 January 2020 15: 42
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      Well, let's count.
      600 thousand dispossession. 7 million famines during collectivization.
      700 thousand victims of great terror.
      1,5 million died in the camps.
      27 million victims of the Second World War.
      1,5 million hunger 48 years.
      A total of 38 with a small million people.
      Somehow
      1. dymdum Offline
        dymdum (dymdum) 15 January 2020 16: 36
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        Quote: Oleg Rambover
        Well let's count

        Where did the firewood come from? I say the source is classified?
        And on what basis are 27 million victims of the war blamed on the socialist system? Their power was destroyed, not fascist aggressors? Is everything all right with critical thinking, you haven’t learned logic, or what?
        1. Oleg Rambover Offline
          Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 15 January 2020 17: 26
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          All in open sources.

          https://www.interfax.ru/russia/479070

          https://duma.consultant.ru/documents/955838?items=1&page=1

          As far as I remember from the foundations of the state and law, citizens delegate their rights in favor of the state in exchange for protecting their interests, including life. The loss of 27 million lives (this is more than all the other participants in the war in Europe combined), says that the state did not do its job very well.
          1. 321 Offline
            321 (321) 15 January 2020 18: 03
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            As everything is familiar - they brought a reference about the famine of the 30s, and did NOT write anything about 48, which is also in your list, have you forgotten? hi
            And again, you “forgot” about the attack and so on - well, I won’t be surprised if after some time on NG or Echo, so beloved, your speeches will appear - with the same numbers - here already quoted today - liberal, he and in Africa, a liberal, you can’t alter you, and you should NOT even try - in my opinion ...
            And your questions - who and what delegates to whom - you ask your relatives ...
      2. 321 Offline
        321 (321) 15 January 2020 17: 05
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        Quote: Oleg Rambover
        Well, let's count ...
        27 million victims of WWII
        1,5 million hunger 48 years ...

        An almost classic example of a modern liberal approach - it was Stalin who attacked Hitler Germany and the famine in 1948 occurred because Stalin decided to buy a couple more Packards, right? And the consequences of the war, the seizure of territories, and the victims, directly related to aggression, have nothing to do with it, right?
        Consider this further, you can not even remember about your other digits against this background.
      3. 123 Online
        123 (123) 15 January 2020 21: 26
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        laughing I'm wallowing. You also perished in the Great Patriotic War on Stalin? belay You will not believe, people are still dying in the camps, the person is still mortal. Add the dead by old age, and then 40 million is no longer impressive.
        1. Oleg Rambover Offline
          Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 15 January 2020 22: 27
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          Why did Joseph Vissarionovich prepare so badly for the war that the Nazis in the most densely populated areas went all the way to the Volga? The peasants won’t starve to death in order to prepare for the war, it was possible to supply the front with a replenishment of the whole war at least, and the Germans all the same where they climbed. The leader is responsible for everything, and for victories and defeats.
          You will not believe it, but it is considered normal (and then it was considered) when 5 prisoners per 1000 die, well 10 per 1000, but when every seventh dies, like in 33 or every fourth, like in 42, this is not normal.

          https://www.alexanderyakovlev.org/fond/issues-doc/1009320
          1. 123 Online
            123 (123) 15 January 2020 23: 14
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            Why is Joseph Vissarionovich so badly prepared for war

            Poor compared to whom? France? Belgium? Poland?

            Nazis in the most densely populated areas went to the Volga?

            He also located Germany west of us? Really strange, why didn’t he redirect them through the Far North? sad

            The peasants won’t starve to death in order to prepare for the war, it was possible to supply the front with a replenishment of the whole war at least, and the Germans all the same where they climbed.

            By the way, how much? What data do you refer to? Are you sure that was just the way it was - stained peasants to prepare for war? After Stalin, we never had hunger? I understand correctly that Alexander I also starved the peasants, but still let the French into Moscow? And how Poles could be allowed into Moscow without Stalin, it’s incomprehensible to the general mind. belay

            The leader is responsible for everything, and for victory and defeat.

            That's right. And he won. Although I am not a fan of Stalin, I consider it unfair that on May 9 he is not even remembered. His portrait should be on the central platform.

            You will not believe it, but it is considered normal (and then it was considered) when 5 prisoners per 1000 die, well 10 per 1000, but when every seventh dies, like in 33 or every fourth, like in 42, this is not normal.

            Strange figures, they always tell us the terrible 37th, and for some reason mortality in the 33rd has increased. In general, it is difficult to answer this question without a detailed study, I’ll look, maybe I will supplement the answer. Well, excuse me, this source of information does not inspire confidence in me.

            Democracy Fund, created in 1993 by a former member of the Politburo, one of the ideologists of perestroika, Alexander Yakovlev ...... "After the law on foreign agents was passed in 2012, we were forced to abandon such funds

            After that, the fund was closed; no one was willing to finance this dump. In general, a fund telling us about the horrors of the Gulag for foreign money ... ... that’s another source. Everything needs to be checked there.
            1. Oleg Rambover Offline
              Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 16 January 2020 00: 20
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              Quote: 123
              Poor compared to whom? France? Belgium? Poland?

              If the Germans reached the Volga, then probably with the Germans. I would attack first. At the end of May 40th, for example.

              Quote: 123
              He also located Germany west of us? Really strange, why didn’t he redirect them through the Far North?

              You will not believe it, but until September 39 the USSR and Germany did not have a common border, and Joseph Vissarionovich made an effort to make such a border appear.

              Quote: 123
              By the way, how much? What data do you refer to? Are you sure that this was exactly the way it was - stained the peasants in order to prepare for war?

              You are inattentive, I gave the link above -

              https://duma.consultant.ru/documents/955838?items=1&page=1

              As a result of the famine caused by forced collectivization, many regions of the RSFSR (the Volga region, the Central Black Earth Region, the North Caucasus, the Urals, Crimea, part of Western Siberia), Kazakhstan, Ukraine, and Belarus were affected. From starvation and diseases related to malnutrition, about 1932-1933 died there. 7 million people.

              The peoples of the USSR paid a huge price for industrialization, for the gigantic economic breakthrough that occurred in those years. The eternal monument to the heroes and victims of the 30s was the Dnieper Hydroelectric Power Station, Magnitogorsk and Kuznetsk Iron and Steel Works, metallurgical giants of Ukraine Zaparozhstal, Azovstal, Krivorozhstal, large coal mines in Donbass, Kuzbass, Karaganda, Kharkov Tractor Plant, Moskovsky and Gorkov Automobile factories - more than 1500 industrial enterprises in total, many of which still provide for the economic development of independent states in the territory of the former USSR.

              Deputies of the State Duma, paying tribute to the victims of the famine of the 30s on the territory of the USSR, strongly condemn the regime that neglected the lives of people in order to achieve economic and political goals, and declare the unacceptability of any attempts to revive totalitarian regimes in the states that formerly belonged to the USSR neglecting the rights and lives of their citizens.

              Quote: 123
              That's right. And he won. Although I am not a fan of Stalin, I consider it not fair that on May 9 he is not even remembered.

              But this does not negate that during his reign such an incredible number of people died. Three of today's Moscow can be settled, or one Ukraine. How can an effective leader lose so many citizens? Still, a couple of such effective managers and the USSR would end.

              Quote: 123
              Strange figures, they always tell us the terrible 37th, and for some reason mortality in the 33rd has increased. In general, it is difficult to answer this question without a detailed study, I’ll look, maybe I will supplement the answer. Well, excuse me, this source of information does not inspire confidence in me

              In 37 there were mass executions, and here it is said about the mass deaths in the camps due to inhuman conditions.
              Read here:

              http://opisi.garf.su/pdf/gulag4/04.pdf

              Start from the last page
              1. 123 Online
                123 (123) 16 January 2020 22: 15
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                If the Germans reached the Volga, then probably with the Germans.

                If in the end a red flag appeared over the Reichstag, then it turns out that it was better prepared. In general, the reasoning is strange, at the initial stage, organization, logistics were better for the Germans. Experienced officers, the army trained and went through more than one war, moreover, the initiative was on their side. The Red Army fended off attacks, often unsuccessfully. Next, they knocked out the German personnel army, our officer corps and soldiers gained combat experience, and the supply and armament improved. Now the Red Army was advancing and the Germans could no longer restrain it. One pre-war preparation cannot explain the outcome of the war.

                I would attack first. At the end of May 40th, for example

                You interestingly reason: winked it’s Stalin’s fault that we have a common border, and then it could have attacked ... You would now screech what a bastard and aggressor he is, yes but he didn’t attack and was not going to, and you won’t be able to hang on him, request but you really want it, right? sad

                You will not believe it, but until September 39 the USSR and Germany did not have a common border, and Joseph Vissarionovich made efforts to make such a border appear.

                Do you think the common border was formed solely by his efforts? You already decide, I didn’t attack the Germans - I’m not right, I pushed the border back - it’s my fault again.

                What data do you refer to? - You are inattentive, I gave the link above

                I read the statement of the State. Thoughts by reference, to be honest, I have a wording

                from hunger and malnutrition

                does not cause trust. Firstly, the statement is politicized, the newly emerged “fighters with the regime” seized power, and secondly, it’s a very vague wording, anything can be adapted to these diseases. I suppose they included all deaths. It is pointless to deny the very fact of hunger, but broadcasting everything on collectivization and industrialization is also not right, they only aggravated the consequences of crop failure. To imagine everything as if the “ghoul” Stalin had starved everyone to just prepare for war better is fundamentally wrong.

                But this does not negate that during his reign such an incredible number of people died. Three of today's Moscow can be settled, or one Ukraine. How can an effective leader lose so many citizens? Still, a couple of such effective managers and the USSR would end.

                And I do not protect him in this regard, times were dashing and those methods still. I try to evaluate it as a historical person, without politicizing the issue. Peter I also decently poured blood, and how many people fled from the Nikon reform with him and his father, and he is a statesman and reformer. Under Nicholas II, sugar wasn’t living either, as a result, the country, as it were, so as not to be deleted ...., well, you are aware. And he is still counted among the saints. Stalin is a controversial figure and far from an angel, but victory in the Second World War is his. And the country did not end with him, on the contrary, it grew into territories. Gorbachev is the “manager," but he is not particularly affected, and, incidentally, no one is in a hurry to calculate the human losses from the result of his rule, by the way, like Yeltsin. Against their background, Stalin is just a shy little boy.

                In 37 there were mass executions, and here it is said about the mass deaths in the camps due to inhuman conditions.
                Read here:

                I read the numbers are creepy, especially on the last page, the death of children is always scary. He did not understand this issue in detail, his hands had not yet reached. It will be interesting, I’ll supplement it.
                1. Oleg Rambover Offline
                  Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 17 January 2020 02: 38
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                  Quote: 123
                  If in the end a red flag appeared over the Reichstag, then it turns out that it was better prepared. In general, the reasoning is strange, at the initial stage, organization, logistics were better for the Germans. Experienced officers, the army trained and went through more than one war, moreover, the initiative was on their side. The Red Army fended off attacks, often unsuccessfully. Next, they knocked out the German personnel army, our officer corps and soldiers gained combat experience, and the supply and armament improved. Now the Red Army was advancing and the Germans could no longer restrain it. One pre-war preparation cannot explain the outcome of the war.

                  Yes, better than the Nazis expected, but not enough not to retreat thousands of kilometers to Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad. The degree of readiness of the Wehrmacht is a problem of the German people. As far back as 36, the Germans actually had no army; in 39, it was not God knows what army of Poland could defeat with noticeable effort. The USSR already had more tanks than all the countries of Europe (and maybe the world) combined.

                  Quote: 123
                  You argue interestingly: it’s Stalin's fault that we have a common border, and here you could have attacked ... You would now screech what a bastard and aggressor he is, but he did not attack and did not intend to, and you won’t be able to hang on him but you really want it, right?

                  Stalin is to blame for the incompetence that led to the death of a huge number of Soviet citizens. If the USSR lost 300 thousand in that war, like the United States, and the whole war took place in the territories of other states, what difference does it make, who would squeal. We would live in another country. Those losses are still affecting.
                  About

                  was going to and you won’t be able to hang it on him, but you really want to, right?

                  - what kind of heresy are you talking about?
                  PS But as I am pleased with the powerless squeals of the Stalinists trying to justify their bloody little god.

                  Quote: 123
                  Do you think the common border was formed solely by his efforts? You already decide, I didn’t attack the Germans - I’m not right, I pushed the border back - it’s my fault again.

                  No, of course, they, together with Aloisichem, painted Poland. Once again, Stalin is to blame for the incompetence that led to the death of a huge number of Soviet citizens. The rest is secondary.

                  Quote: 123
                  I read the statement of the State. Thoughts by reference, to be honest, my wording “from hunger and diseases associated with malnutrition” does not inspire confidence. Firstly, the statement is politicized, the newly emerged “fighters with the regime” seized power, and secondly, it’s a very vague wording, anything can be adapted to these diseases. I suppose they included all deaths. It is pointless to deny the very fact of hunger, but broadcasting everything on collectivization and industrialization is also not right, they only aggravated the consequences of crop failure. It is as if to imagine everything as a “ghoul” Stalin starved everyone to just better prepare for war fundamentally wrong.

                  Statement of 2008, the Duma is already tame, United Russia faction 70%. In short, this is currently the official estimate of the 32-33 year famine loss. Do not like it, contact the deputies, let them review.
                  Secondly, no one counted the number of casualties directly; they estimated supermortality in relation to successful times. It doesn’t matter whether death is caused directly by starvation or by diseases exacerbated by hunger.
                  On the contrary, the poor harvest aggravated the consequences of collectivization, but at the same time the grain continued to be driven for export, only in the year 33 the grain export fell sharply (and never again recovered in the USSR), later crops were worse.
                  Of course, Stalin did not starve everyone on purpose. Of course, he was not a genius, but he was not mentally retarded either. He again showed monstrous incompetence, which led to monstrous losses among the citizens of the USSR.

                  Quote: 123
                  And I do not protect him in this regard, times were dashing and those methods still. I try to evaluate it as a historical person, without politicizing the issue. Peter I also decently poured blood, and how many people fled from the Nikon reform with him and his father, and he is a statesman and reformer. Under Nicholas II, sugar wasn’t living either, as a result, the country, so to speak, so as not to be deleted ...., well, you are in the know. And he is still counted among the saints. Stalin - the figure is not unique and far from an angel, but the victory in the Second World War is his. And the country did not end with him, on the contrary, it grew into territories. Gorbachev is the “manager," but he is not particularly affected, and by the way, human losses from the result of his rule, by the way, like Yeltsin, no one is in a hurry to count. Against their background, Stalin is just a shy little boy.

                  With the words "times were dashing and methods still" you justify it. So you can justify anyone - Hitler, and Mao, and Pol Pot.
                  Evaluate your health, but I believe that factories, tanks, atomic bombs are good, but the state is first of all, its citizens, no one needs all these pieces of iron without citizens.
                  I remember people who were adults under Stalin, and Peter lived 300 years ago, then you can compare with the Mayan kings, so what?
                  The country reached the pre-revolutionary standard of living only after the death of Stalin, and then according to Soviet statistics.
                  I lived under Gorbachev and Yeltsin and I do not remember the mass hunger, especially with mass deaths. Something I doubt very much that someone can argue with Stalin in this matter. It’s interesting to count.

                  Quote: 123
                  I read the numbers are creepy, especially on the last page, the death of children is always scary. He did not understand this issue in detail, his hands had not yet reached. It will be interesting, I’ll add

                  And how can one pray after this after Joseph?
                  1. 321 Offline
                    321 (321) 17 January 2020 06: 48
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                    Quote: Oleg Rambover
                    ... The degree of readiness of the Wehrmacht is a problem of the German people. The Germans back in 36 there was virtually no army, in 39 with a notable effort could not defeat what army of Poland. The USSR there were already more tanks than all the countries of Europe (and maybe the world) togetherи taken.

                    I already wrote once - first learn the materiel, in military matters at least, well, NOT this yours.

                    Quote: Oleg Rambover
                    .
                    Stalin is to blame for the incompetence that led to the death of a huge number of Soviet citizens. If the USSR lost in that war 300 thousand, like the United States, and the whole war proceeded on the territories of other stateswho cares who squeals. We would live in another country. Those losses are still affecting.
                    About

                    was going to and you won’t be able to hang it on him, but you really want to, right?

                    what heresy are you talking about?
                    PS But how am I pleased with the powerless squeals of the Stalinists trying to justify their bloody little god ...

                    It’s time to ask - what kind of heresy do you personally write? Your howls strongly resemble the indignation of those who claim that if they WOULD NOT resist the Wehrmacht in 1941-1945, then they would now drink Bavarian beer. am
                    And the screech comes mainly from you and your colleagues, it’s you who are stupidly unwilling to understand that nobody is going to pray for Stalin, BUT to hang ALL dogs on him - well, as you and your colleagues love, this is superfluous.

                    Quote: Oleg Rambover
                    ... Evaluate for health, but I believe that factories, tanks, atomic bombs are good, but the state is first of all its citizens, no one needs these pieces of iron without citizens ...

                    You tell all this to the Serbs, or to the Libyans, or to the Yugoslavs - how much you personally learn about yourself - here they did not have all this and the result is known, so you’re keeping your wet ones or what kind of personal dreams you have there, and not everyone needs it.

                    Quote: Oleg Rambover
                    ... And how can one pray after this after Joseph?

                    Comment on your dreams yourself, who is there and who is “praying” for? And here you are still writing about heresy, look at yourself FIRST ... hi
                    1. Oleg Rambover Offline
                      Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 17 January 2020 12: 56
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                      I knew that you could not get past the "screech" of the Stalinists.
                      You calm down. Take a deep breath.
                      Stalin is already dead anyway.
                      To determine that yours is generally impossible, you hide your knowledge or ask for money for your revelations !!!
                      Discussions with you are not interesting, because you are not able to argue your points.
                      How do you like the link to the book with the documents of the NKVD Ministry of Internal Affairs? Pay particular attention to the last page. I was impressed, and you?
                      Regarding the number of victims of the Stalinist regime.
                      I cited these numbers from memory and even mixed up the year. The famine was at 46-47. The number of victims is estimated from one to one and a half million people. You can also discuss the number of victims of dispossession. The victims were mainly old people and children who did not survive the inhuman conditions of exile. No accounting was done, so the number of victims is estimated.
                      The remaining figures are either officially recognized or have documentary evidence.
                      If the number of victims is not 38, but 36-37 million, will it be much easier for you? Moreover, 10 million uyhdaykali without any war.
                      1. 321 Offline
                        321 (321) 17 January 2020 21: 00
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                        Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover), it’s of little interest to me, from your memory, or in another way - when a person stubbornly DOES NOT (or cannot) understand that immediately after the end of a large and very difficult war it’s difficult to feed, and the death toll is stubborn in the war he is trying with stubbornness worthy of much better use to “ascribe” to Stalin - what can we talk about next?
                        I’m not interested, especially to read your kindergarten about tanks and other military heresy in your performance ...
                      2. Oleg Rambover Offline
                        Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 18 January 2020 00: 57
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                        Of course, of course, where can I, not the military, understand why the victorious people are dying of hunger when trains with grain are exported and the country's leadership in a fit of paranoia rotting grain in stocks in the event of a never-happened war. At the same time, they do not even try to buy food abroad or, at worst, ask for help, pride probably does not allow it.
                        This can be understood only after 20 years of service, and preferably 25. And you know what is good - that I did not serve, I do not want to understand this.
                        Stalin, as the head of the country, was responsible for protecting his citizens. He was unable to protect the lives of at least 14 million civilians. And at the same time he lost 12 million soldiers killed, according to the statement, of the Moscow Region. This is half the loss of all the warring countries in all theaters of operations around the world. Every second soldier who died in World War II was a Soviet citizen. Awesome efficiency.
                        Of course, you are not interested; you simply have nothing to object to.
                      3. 321 Offline
                        321 (321) 18 January 2020 08: 39
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                        Nothing to argue? And in this topic, and earlier, you have already been written how many times - but all the time you hear the same “Yaroslavna's cry” from you, so how many times can you repeat it? Doesn’t reach - your problems ...
                        But what about understanding - what can you write after your heresy about help, grain, tanks, losses and much more? Teach the materiel, even if not all, but quite a lot is already known - so you didn’t ask for your howls on the topics of rotting grain, and so on — try to tell someone from your pets, they can trust you unconditionally.
                        And you will continue to howl on topics - how good it would be if the losses would be like in the USA, but to move the borders - and here you have something to howl - invaders, and the fact that an elementary, albeit long-range, weapon could Were Leningrad to be fired — and here you have an “argument” —the Finns didn’t have such guns, kindergarten, not arguments, but you are here, and certainly not only here, in all seriousness expound - so it bothers you and not only to you to chew the obvious, stay on with your “knowledge”. hi
                        And you can write as much as you like that you want the state to be ..., in fact, you either don’t understand, or, most likely, do it intentionally - there were those who asked for that help and even received it - the main question is what he lost in return - that’s what you and not only you are silent about and, most likely, INTENTIONALLY. am
                      4. Oleg Rambover Offline
                        Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 19 January 2020 02: 30
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                        First, calm down.
                        Secondly, something about the whole forum you began to write some minor insults to my comments. I have them from a high bell tower, but ... My father is an officer, and from childhood I learned that this profession imposes on a person .... I don’t know, dignity or something. In my opinion, behaving as you are doing now is unworthy of an officer. Please do not disappoint me in the Soviet officers.
                        You start about the Finns again.
                        Firstly, you are misinterpreting my words.
                        Secondly, you never answered what the Finnish war gave to defend Leningrad if the Finns were already at the old border at the end of August.

                        Quote: 321
                        And you can write as much as you like that you want the state to be ..., in fact, you either don’t understand, or, most likely, do it intentionally - there were those who asked for that help and even received it - the main question is what he lost in return - that’s what you and not only you are silent about and, most likely, INTENTIONALLY.

                        So tell us who, where, what received and what they were for it. Why again, you can not give any fact.
                        And better tell us what the Russian Empire lost for helping the Great Famine and Soviet Russia for helping the starving Volga.
                        But in the end, the lion's share of aid under Lend-Lease was food and the last delivery was in September 45. What did the USSR lose for this?
                      5. 321 Offline
                        321 (321) 19 January 2020 06: 48
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                        Quote: Oleg Rambover
                        First calm down.
                        Secondly, something about the whole forum you began to write some minor insults to my comments. I have them from a high bell tower, but ... My father is an officer, and from childhood I learned that this profession imposes on a person .... I don’t know, dignity, or something. In my opinion, behaving as you are doing now is unworthy of an officer. Please do not disappoint me in the Soviet officers ...

                        Don’t even worry about worrying - I didn’t start, your comments don’t interest me to the extent that I ONLY commented on you - most of them, alas, were removed, there your soulmate was torn to some extent in the morning by who he was already here just was not, yesterday was Akhtung bully - but trying to revive again, though not for long. laughing
                        Yes, and actually your disappointment or not disappointment does not really interest me, I have my own opinion of what is worthy and what is not ...

                        Quote: Oleg Rambover
                        ... So tell me who, where, what received and what they were for it. Why can't you bring again no fact.
                        And better tell us what the Russian Empire lost for helping the Great Famine and Soviet Russia for helping the starving Volga.
                        But in the end, the lion's share of aid under Lend-Lease was food and the last delivery was in September 45. What did the USSR lose for this?

                        And what makes you, almost NOT owning the topic, write comments - how else to understand your passage, what are YOU OBLIGED to bring the facts? How exceptionally that you do not know this in sufficient quantities ...
                        So type in any search “Marshall Plan” and fill the gaps in your knowledge, how many there are - there are even many surnames. hi
                        Everything has already been written about the Finns - read and educate yourself, you will receive deeper knowledge purely on your own. hi
                        PS I have to repeat myself - remember the school, the Russian language, well, you can’t do that, elementary mistakes ...
                      6. Oleg Rambover Offline
                        Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 19 January 2020 10: 19
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                        Here you are again, I specifically asked what the USSR lost for food aid under the Lend-Lease. You start a marshall plan for me .... Well, what has Europe lost? I will definitely not look for any nonsense about external management on your conspiracy websites.

                        In my opinion, the discussion should look like this, one side gives reasoned arguments (taking out a country or learning a part is not an argument), the other side gives a counter argument, trying to prove the groundlessness of the arguments of the other side, etc.
                        You, for reasons unknown to me, do not succeed.
                      7. 321 Offline
                        321 (321) 19 January 2020 15: 45
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                        I rarely write in topics that I’m not interested in, or in which I don’t orient myself, and expect the same from my opponent, BUT - you didn’t write yesterday, 00 57 -

                        ... And they don’t even try to buy food abroad or, at worst, to ask for help, pride probably does not allow...,

                        - and now it turns out that you don’t even know who is there, when, and for what help I offered - you couldn’t even read the wiki for reasons unknown to me, for the reason that one of the conditions for providing assistance to some countries in Europe was no communists, of course, they didn’t recognize the authorities - the question arises - why with such pathos WAS to write about help if you didn’t INITIALLY KNOW what this help would be conditional on? And there were still conditions, but you’ll definitely study the rest yourself ...
                        I was ready to discuss the details earlier - about Morgenthau, about Bollen, there are still nuances, but in this vein it is simply not interesting ...
                        You write about LL, which ended before the famine, how much can you write about the same thing? What does it have to do with it?
                        Enough, fill your gaps yourself, and you’ll find out yourself, if you want, of course, who George K. was and what relation he had to all this ...
                        BUT all this is for yourself!
                      8. Oleg Rambover Offline
                        Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 20 January 2020 12: 00
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                        Ahhh ...
                        How hard it is with you ...
                        You understand, I have not served in the army for 20 years, please state for average minds.
                        And here is hunger, hypothetical help that no one asked for and the Marshall plan demanding that the Communists not be allowed to power (which was adopted in 48) (and which for some reason I should know)?
                        If you were hinting that in the year 46, if the USSR had asked for help (but he didn’t), the West would have demanded that they hang Stalin’s feet on Red Square in response, so let the USSR citizens die better. I ask why, shortly before that, the same West provided assistance much more extensive and vital for the USSR (and the USSR asked) in the form of Lend-Lease on very mild conditions, which the USSR also did not fulfill.
                        You wrote -

                        Quote: 321
                        there were those who asked for that help and even received it - the main question is what he lost in return - that's what you and not only you are silent about

                        The USSR asked for help in 41 in the form of Lend-Lease, and even received it, and, in your words, he should have lost something, and I am silent about this, because I do not know what the USSR lost. But you probably know and will tell us now.
                        For some reason you became attached to help, but I still asked why they didn’t buy food? You tactfully avoid this moment.
                        And in general, the conversation began with the losses of the USSR during the reign of Stalin, do you agree that the losses amounted to at least 36,5 million people?

                        PS About the sausage, you amused me. The secret production of Soviet sausage in the hell of capitalism, turnout flogged, one feels how you relate to this subject with trepidation. You see, I spent my childhood in the USSR and I remember what products were, sausage did not belong to the successes of the USSR. In addition, I don’t eat sausage, health. And I do not advise you, even cooked according to secret Soviet recipes.

                        PPS Do you think it’s rude to be rude worthy of the rank of Soviet officer?
                      9. 321 Offline
                        321 (321) 20 January 2020 21: 40
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                        First, about rudeness, it started with someone writing about foot and ... and so on - and again you get the liberal logic - we can, but for the rest ... it won’t work out ...
                        Back in Soviet times, there was only one sausage, well, in modern terms, the farmer started to do it - so about not reaching by, we’ve been eating for a long time, and what kind of expertise it just didn’t pass — so your efforts about health are past :)
                        And everything else has already been written to you, read ...
                        I’m tired of chewing you an elementary one and persuading you to, like, swallow it - if you don’t have enough - well, I don’t know what is missing to understand the difference between LL and another, and also to understand why this LL was given - it’s definitely not my problems.

                        PS The discussion, as you wrote there before, primarily involves a certain initial level of knowledge, BASIC if you want, but to begin with the alphabet, figuratively speaking - why do I need such happiness, moreover, the holidays are over, it's time to do business, and much more it's time - you definitely DO NOT write a monograph in my place ... hi
                      10. Oleg Rambover Offline
                        Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 21 January 2020 11: 06
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                        Quote: 321
                        First, about rudeness, it started with someone writing about foot and ... and so on - and again you get the liberal logic - we can, but for the rest ... it won’t work out ...

                        Comrade commbatant, who is not a friend to us, but a radish, invited me and my relatives to leave the country, which, in my inexperienced view, was rudeness and deservedly was sent on a hiking trip. What are you getting into? Is he your friend, comrade? Then you are not very picky in choosing friends.

                        Quote: 321
                        In Soviet times, there was only one sausage, well, in modern terms, the farmer began to make

                        Where did OBHSS look? !! Sausage is harmful regardless of its quality. IMHO

                        Quote: 321
                        Tired of chewing you basic and also coaxing

                        Oh everyone!
                        I don’t know what you chew to whom and what you swallow, but here the level of your arguments is zero, zero. I don’t know if this is due to the level of your knowledge, fear of losing the discussion or something else, I don’t care.
                        You have already been poked with your knowledge in the paper on mortality in the camps. If you had a question about the famine of 46-47, you would say that you didn’t ask for help or you didn’t make purchases, because food was taken from the same state reserve, which halved during this period. You carried some nonsense about the Marshall plan, which then did not exist yet, the Communists and someone lost something in return.
                      11. 321 Offline
                        321 (321) 21 January 2020 21: 46
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                        Do you think that they are able to poke at least someone, in fact, this is not so ...
                        Your assessment - zero or zero, occupies me extremely little - to evaluate, at a minimum, you need to know what you are NOT observing ... hi
                        PS And anyway, who answered whom and to what - you don’t know how to answer in decent language - well, I can sympathize, but there’s nothing to help you personally, your convinced colleague, also a Russophobe, someone Sake, no longer tries, already knows, that after such “attempts” he usually “takes a steam bath”. bully
                        PPS And try again to read what was discussed and how it all began ... hi
  • 123 Online
    123 (123) 17 January 2020 07: 35
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    Yes, better than the Nazis expected, but not enough not to retreat thousands of kilometers to Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad. The degree of readiness of the Wehrmacht is a problem of the German people. The Germans in the year 36 actually had no army

    The Germans did not have a revolution with a civil war, in fact, they raised the state from the ruins, and what they could prepare the army, that was. They built on their hard-earned money, no one, as in Germany, poured money. Doesn’t it bother you that the army in Germany only appeared in the 36th year, Hitler came to power in the 33rd, and in your opinion, was Stalin already preparing for a war with him in the 33rd?

    at 39, with notable effort, it was not God knows what army of Poland could defeat.

    Rave? Polish troops were ordered not to resist the Red Army, what kind of victory are you talking about? They occupied the territories occupied by the Poles after the revolution.

    The USSR already had more tanks than all European countries (and maybe the world) together.

    So what? Firstly, just counting tanks - 1 piece does not give anything, tanks are different. Secondly, the Germans had the concept of using armored forces, coherence, honed in battles. It was worse with us, supply and mobility were also incomparable. With the tractors, the Germans were much better, they could transfer artillery faster, there was air supremacy. There are a lot of nuances.

    Stalin is to blame for the incompetence that led to the death of a huge number of Soviet citizens. If the USSR lost 300 thousand in that war, like the United States, and the whole war took place in the territories of other states, what difference does it make, who would squeal. We would live in another country. Those losses are still affecting.

    If my grandmother had ...., then you are in the know. If the United States had a land border with Germany and they were attacked, do you think the losses would be the same? I don’t see an alternative story to discuss. And the losses affect the Second World War, the civil revolution.

    Regarding "I was going to hang this on you, it won’t work out but I really want to, right?", What kind of heresy are you talking about?
    PS But as I am pleased with the powerless squeals of the Stalinists trying to justify their bloody little god.

    Meet the Stalinists, say hello.

    No, of course, they, together with Aloisichem, painted Poland.

    Come on, are you going to read morality? They took their own from the Poles, the "Hyena of Europe" before this together and Adik Czechoslovakia Derbanil in the same battle formations.

    Once again, Stalin is to blame for the incompetence that led to the death of a huge number of Soviet citizens. The rest is secondary.

    Only everything does not need to be hanged on him, he did not start a war.

    Statement of 2008, the Duma is already tame, United Russia faction 70%. In short, this is currently the official estimate of the 32-33 year famine loss. Do not like it, contact the deputies, let them review.
    Of course, the "ghoul" Stalin did not starve everyone on purpose. Of course, he was not a genius, but he was not mentally retarded either. He again showed monstrous incompetence, which led to monstrous losses among the citizens of the USSR.

    I’m not interested in whether it’s manual or foot, and which party was driving it, the main thing is that the statement is politicized. I'm not hot from him, not cold, if you want - contact yourself. I have my own opinion; deputies are not a decree for me.

    Secondly, no one counted the number of casualties directly; they estimated supermortality in relation to successful times. It doesn’t matter if death is caused directly by hunger or by diseases aggravated by hunger.

    Quite right, no one believed, but all are referred to, they say, starved to death.

    On the contrary, the poor harvest aggravated the consequences of collectivization, but at the same time the grain continued to be driven for export, only in the year 33 the grain export fell sharply (and never again recovered in the USSR), later crops were worse.

    A crop failure aggravated collectivization, or vice versa, who will now sort it out? As for the "continued to drive," the topic is extensive; there, too, is not so simple. In those years, not only was “fun” with us, in the USA the data are still not published, according to some reports, 5 million count the dead. The statistics of the dead in the 32nd were never published.

    With the words "times were dashing and methods still" you justify it. So you can justify anyone - Hitler, and Mao, and Pol Pot.

    And who justifies whom?

    Evaluate your health, but I believe that factories, tanks, atomic bombs are good, but the state is first of all its citizens, no one needs all these pieces of iron without citizens.

    Without these pieces of iron, few of the citizens would have survived, and such citizenship would not have been.

    I remember people who were adults under Stalin, and Peter lived 300 years ago, then you can compare with the Mayan kings, so what?

    That is, another 200 years - and Stalin will become a prominent political figure? Is it all about time? And I remember the people who lived under Stalin, even under Brezhnev, cars with his portrait under glass were not uncommon.

    The country reached the pre-revolutionary standard of life only after the death of Stalin, and then according to Soviet statistics.

    And this, mind you, after the war, the whole country before the Volga was destroyed.

    I lived under Gorbachev and Yeltsin, and I do not remember mass starvation, especially with mass deaths. Something I doubt very much that someone can argue with Stalin in this matter. It’s interesting to count.

    Read at your leisure https://burckina-faso.livejournal.com/928313.html

    https://topcor.ru/uploads/posts/2020-01/1579235464_235165_1000.png

    This is only for Russia. No one answered where the rest of the country was divided, and did not count the population decline. And about the "hunger was not", go on an excursion to the cemetery, look at the graves of those years, there are enough without hunger, one youth lies.

    And how can one pray after this after Joseph?

    I don’t know, I have an icon in the corner, I have enough.
    1. Oleg Rambover Offline
      Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 18 January 2020 01: 57
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      Quote: 123
      The Germans did not have a revolution with a civil war, in fact, they raised the state from the ruins, and what they could prepare the army, that was. They built on their hard-earned money, no one, as in Germany, poured money. Doesn’t it bother you that the army in Germany only appeared in the 36th year, Hitler came to power in the 33rd, and in your opinion, was Stalin already preparing for a war with him in the 33rd?

      Firstly, the Germans had a revolution.
      Secondly, the Germans had indemnity and a great depression.
      Thirdly, Stalin was preparing for war with the entire capitalist encirclement, led by Great Britain.
      Fourth, without Western help there would be no industrialization.
      Fifthly, all this is talk in favor of the poor.

      Quote: 123
      Rave? Polish troops were ordered not to resist the Red Army, what kind of victory are you talking about? They occupied the territories occupied by the Poles after the revolution.

      You rave about it and, as always, inattentively read. I spoke about the Wehrmacht.

      Quote: 123
      So what? Firstly, just counting tanks - 1 piece does not give anything, tanks are different. Secondly, the Germans had the concept of using armored forces, coherence, honed in battles. It was worse with us, supply and mobility were also incomparable. With the tractors, the Germans were much better, they could transfer artillery faster, there was air supremacy. There are a lot of nuances.

      Firstly, you have not seen German tanks, that is still scrap.
      Secondly, the Red Army had the concept of a deep operation, introduced by Tukhachevsky and successfully applied.
      Thirdly, the only noticeable lag of the Red Army in June 41 is the means of communication.
      Fourth, this is again talk in favor of the poor.

      Quote: 123
      If my grandmother had ...., then you are in the know.

      You started it yourself.

      Quote: 123
      Meet the Stalinists, say hello.

      Pass it on to your mirror 321, for example.

      Quote: 123
      Come on, are you going to read morality? They took their own from the Poles, the "Hyena of Europe" before that, together with Adik Czechoslovakia, Derbanil in the same battle formations.

      No, I am not going. And what, that someone was sharing something there? Are you going to read moral?

      Quote: 123
      Only everything does not need to be hanged on him, he did not start a war.

      He allowed the outbreak of war in unfavorable conditions for the USSR and the most favorable for Germany, before which he helped Germany build up military power.

      Quote: 123
      I’m not interested in whether it’s manual or foot, and which party was driving it, the main thing is that the statement is politicized. I'm not hot from him, not cold, if you want - contact yourself. I have my own opinion; deputies are not a decree for me.

      Flag in hand.

      Quote: 123
      Quite right, no one believed, but all are referred to, they say, starved to death.

      Eeee .. some nonsense. You were told that 7 million more people died that year than they should. From hunger or illness, aggravated by hunger.

      Quote: 123
      A crop failure aggravated collectivization, or vice versa, who will now sort it out? As for the "continued to drive," the topic is extensive; there, too, is not so simple. In those years, not only was “fun” with us, in the USA the data are still not published, according to some reports, 5 million count the dead. The statistics of the dead in the 32nd were never published.

      Everything is simple there, criminal incompetence and sloppiness. If 5 million died in the USA, does this somehow justify Stalin? Moreover, this is a myth.

      Quote: 123
      And who justifies whom?

      You are Stalin.

      Quote: 123
      Without these pieces of iron, few of the citizens would have survived, and such citizenship would not have been.

      Stalin left so many pieces of iron in the occupied territory that if not all, then exactly half of the war could be fought, and was left without tanks and planes. All these glands were able to re-create citizens of the USSR. Re-creating people is much more difficult.

      Quote: 123
      That is, another 200 years - and Stalin will become a prominent political figure? Is it all about time? And I remember the people who lived under Stalin, even under Brezhnev, cars with his portrait under glass were not uncommon.

      Peter is the creator of a state that lasted 200 years, and the authorities still call themselves his heir. The Stalinist USSR did not exist even 40. The era of humanism is now, and it is unlikely that the tyrant who is so dismissive of the life of his fellow citizens will enjoy popularity.

      Quote: 123
      And this, mind you, after the war, the whole country before the Volga was destroyed.

      And?

      Quote: 123
      Read at your leisure

      https://burckina-faso.livejournal.com/928313.html

      https://topcor.ru/uploads/posts/2020-01/1579235464_235165_1000.png

      This is only for Russia. No one answered where the rest of the country was divided, and did not count the population decline. And about the "hunger was not", go on an excursion to the cemetery, look at the graves of those years, there are enough without hunger, one youth lies.

      And what should have impressed me here? Mortality is a companion of poverty and bad medicine. What, under Putin, is supermortality greater than under Yeltsin?
      1. 123 Online
        123 (123) 18 January 2020 07: 56
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        Firstly, the Germans had a revolution.

        Well, you compared, the bourgeois-democratic revolution, in fact, eliminated the monarchy and all. The consequences are not comparable.

        Secondly, the Germans had indemnity and a great depression.

        - and we have a loss of territories, a civil war.

        Thirdly, Stalin was preparing for war with the entire capitalist encirclement, led by Great Britain.

        Everyone is preparing for war.

        Fourth, without Western help there would be no industrialization.

        And what was western help? They bought equipment and technologies for gold and the same bread. No one made investments, as in Germany.

        You rave about it and, as always, inattentively read. I spoke about the Wehrmacht.

        Sorry, I did not understand hi

        in 39 with a notable effort could not defeat what army of Poland

        Why isn’t there any good news? The number of troops involved in the war was approximately comparable, the tanks of the Germans were, "as you may put it," he’s still scrap. " Poland is well prepared for the war. The troops had combat experience, together with the Germans participated in hostilities during the occupation of Czechoslovakia. After all, "everyone knows" that it was "Stalin who prepared poorly for the war." And what happened? Two weeks ..... We had border posts for 2 months. Apparently, from poor preparation for the war ...

        Firstly, you have not seen German tanks, that is still scrap.

        Do you think that in the Red Army there were only KV and T-34?

        Secondly, the Red Army had the concept of a deep operation, introduced by Tukhachevsky and successfully applied

        Where successfully applied? In the "Polish campaign"? The Great Marshal, with his concept, left tens of thousands of Red Army soldiers dying of hunger and disease in Polish captivity.

        Thirdly, the only noticeable lag of the Red Army in June 41 is the means of communication.

        This is noticeable to you, if not to delve into. In terms of mobility and supply organization, the quality of training of command personnel, they lagged significantly. In addition, the Germans took the initiative, concentrated the troops, provided an advantage and dealt a blow. Niches were stretched along the front line. In the second half of the war, the situation was mirrored.

        No, I am not going. And what, that someone was sharing something there? Are you going to read moral?

        The thought behind the letters was lost, I did not understand anything, I find it difficult to comment.

        He allowed the outbreak of war in unfavorable conditions for the USSR and the most favorable for Germany, before which he helped Germany build up military power.

        The aggressor usually starts a war in favorable conditions for himself, here a priori the defending side is at a disadvantage. How do Stalin’s actions differ from the heads of other European states? I wonder how do you think he could prevent this? Write a letter to Hitler, they say, do not dare to attack? Well, and about helping to build up Germany’s military power, it’s, as you say, “a conversation in favor of the poor.”

        Everything is simple there, criminal incompetence and sloppiness. If 5 million died in the USA, does this somehow justify Stalin? Moreover, this is a myth.

        This doesn’t justify Stalin, just a biased approach is seen in this example. After all, Truman or Hoover, I don’t remember who the president was there, is also not blamed. Here 7 million more died than it should have been, 5 million there ...... Actually, the difference is small. Apparently, the whole point is in ideology, objectivity and does not smell. And by the way, why is it a myth about the USA? 5 million more died, as you put it. The data is still classified. Why a myth?

        Stalin left so many of these glands in the occupied territory that if not all, then exactly half of the war could be fought and was left without tanks and planes.

        And what, it was necessary to deliver these very citizens (in military uniforms) unarmed at the border? The retreating often lose their weapons, there is nothing out of the ordinary. Remember how in Dunkirk the English "left." In the second half of the war, there were also enough trophies.

        All these glands were able to re-create citizens of the USSR. Re-creating people is much more difficult.

        Yes, they could, by heroic efforts. And they sculpted them from clay hands? What could they do without industry, that same industrialization?

        Peter is the creator of a state that lasted 200 years, and the authorities still call themselves his heir. The Stalinist USSR did not exist even 40.

        In your opinion, the whole difference between them is how much the state lasted? Do you evaluate them according to the actions of the "heirs"? belay Firstly, neither Peter nor Stalin created any state. Secondly, it is not clear why exactly the "Stalinist USSR" and why exactly 40 years? Why then not Petrovskaya Russia? And how long did she last? Evaluation criteria are strongly incomprehensible. And the fact that the authorities call themselves his heir is completely irrelevant. You go into ideology, this is wrong. It is necessary to evaluate from a historical point of view, impartially.

        Now is the era of humanism and is unlikely to be popular tyrant, so dismissive of the life of their fellow citizens.

        Really? laughing And when did this wonderful era begin? Something I did not notice. request What is this expressed in? About the tyrant, of course, yes, they did it right, hi I didn’t laugh like that for a long time. laughing You will not tell about humanism of the same Peter? And in general, the point is not in popularity, but in the historical assessment of a statesman. Popularity, she, you know, passing. Who knows how life will turn.

        And this, mind you, after the war, the whole country before the Volga was destroyed.
        And?

        What And? They managed to restore the country destroyed by two world wars, revolution, civil war.

        And what should have impressed me here? Mortality is a companion of poverty and bad medicine. What, under Putin, is supermortality greater than under Yeltsin?

        Under Putin, the situation is at least getting better. And so, yes, what can impress you here? Just think, millions of people have died. You do not reproach Yeltsin and Gorbachev? Maybe pray for them? sad And they didn’t even bother to mention the loss of territories .... Just think, half of the country was lost .... It's not that the terrible Stalin lost the pieces of iron. All this reflects your bias and politicization. If you evaluate these politicians impartially, many uncomfortable questions arise. For example, why the leader of the country, who won the Second World War, rebuilt the country, grew the territory, demolished all the monuments, and the monuments were erected to the person who staged the coup, who lost the territory, shot his own parliament out of tanks, unleashed a civil war, brought the country to default, " Yeltsin centers. "
      2. Oleg Rambover Offline
        Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 19 January 2020 01: 47
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        Something fed me with these sheets. I’ll answer the most egregious to a couple.

        Quote: 123
        Where successfully applied? In the "Polish campaign"? The Great Marshal, with his concept, left tens of thousands of Red Army soldiers dying of hunger and disease in Polish captivity.

        According to the memory of Khalkhin-Gol, Vistula-Oder operation, Soviet-Japanese war.

        Quote: 123
        Why isn’t there any good news? The number of troops involved in the war was approximately comparable, the tanks of the Germans were, "as you may put it," he’s still scrap. " Poland is well prepared for the war. The troops had combat experience, together with the Germans participated in hostilities during the occupation of Czechoslovakia. After all, "everyone knows" that it was "Stalin who prepared poorly for the war." And what happened? Two weeks ..... We had border posts for 2 months. Apparently, from poor preparation for the war ...

        Because Poland is not a very large country and could not mobilize and maintain a large army. And actually September 1 - October 6. For the rest, you confirm my words that the Wehrmacht was not particularly strong at 39. Two years before June, 41 Germans clearly used better.

        Actually, what do you want to say?
        What is permissible to starve your citizens?
        Or what is there to lose about the same amount of soldiers in a war as all other countries (both adversaries and allies) participating in World War II around the world, is this acceptable?
        Or is it acceptable to carry out mass executions of one’s own citizens?

        Quote: 123
        Under Putin, the situation is at least getting better. And so, yes, what can impress you here? Just think, millions of people have died.

        In the most prosperous pre-war years, mortality was higher than in the most unsuccessful years of perestroika. All these are the consequences of poverty, the collapse of the country. Say thanks for this to the leaders of the country, starting with Stalin.
        What are you bothering me with questions about the Yeltsin Centers? Contact the presidential administration, they are the owners of this facility.
      3. 123 Online
        123 (123) 19 January 2020 22: 04
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        Something fed me with these sheets. I’ll answer the most egregious to a couple.

        You are absolutely right, hi correspondence is being delayed. I will try as briefly.

        According to the memory of Khalkhin-Gol, Vistula-Oder operation, Soviet-Japanese war.

        These are all offensive operations. In defense, its use is simply not applicable. By the way, it would be interesting to read it, but they say that out of the circulation (100 copies), one may have survived at the Institute of Military History. The leadership talent of Tukhachevsky is in doubt. In a conflict with Poland, he showed himself to the full.

        Because Poland is not a very large country and could not mobilize and maintain a large army.

        Firstly, the German population was exactly 2 times larger, according to this logic, the Chinese should have defeated just everyone. Secondly, Germany also did not conduct a total mobilization.

        And actually September 1 - October 6.

        Sorry for the inaccuracy hi but it doesn’t change the essence of the matter; the Pavlov’s House in Stalingrad lasted longer than the whole of Poland.

        For the rest, you confirm my words that the Wehrmacht was not particularly strong at 39. Two years before June, 41 Germans clearly used better.

        Come on, laughing and what has changed dramatically over these 2 years?

        Actually, what do you want to say?
        What is permissible to starve your citizens?
        Or what is there to lose about the same amount of soldiers in a war as all other countries (both adversaries and allies) participating in World War II around the world, is this acceptable?
        Or is it acceptable to carry out mass executions of one’s own citizens?

        No, starvation is unacceptable. And what about the famine in Poland and Romania in 1932-1933 ??? Are they the same “ghouls” like Stalin, or were there other objective circumstances? They didn’t seem to have collectivization (you don’t believe about the USA). Claiming that the USSR lost the soldiers as much as everyone else, especially (opponents and allies), you are simply lying impudently. fool

        In the most prosperous pre-war years, mortality was higher than in the most unsuccessful years of perestroika. All these are the consequences of poverty, the collapse of the country.

        You won’t believe it, but the mortality rate is constantly decreasing, you’ll probably laugh, but before the revolution, mortality was much higher than in the “most prosperous” pre-war years (with the exception of the famine of 1933)

        http://istmat.info/node/38432

        I propose to think about it, otherwise it turns out that Nicholas II the executioner is worse than Stalin?

        Say thanks for this to the leaders of the country, starting with Stalin.

        And why from Stalin? Under Lenin, was everything fundamentally different? And before the revolution, how? Thanks to them too?

        Something you are asking me with questions about the "Yeltsin centers" pestering? Contact the presidential administration, they are the owners of this facility.

        Yes, I do not bother, I gave information for consideration. Do you agree that the approach to assessing the activities of statesmen should be one and not biased? Without any enthusiastic nonsense about the "era of humanism."
      4. Oleg Rambover Offline
        Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 20 January 2020 00: 58
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        Quote: 123
        These are all offensive operations.

        What are you? Was Blitzkrieg a defensive concept?

        Quote: 123
        The leadership talent of Tukhachevsky is in doubt. In a conflict with Poland, he showed himself to the full.

        Will it be a revelation for you that the general talents of Stalin in the same war with Poland were also fully revealed?

        Quote: 123
        Firstly, the German population was exactly 2 times larger, according to this logic, the Chinese should have defeated just everyone. Secondly, Germany also did not conduct a total mobilization.

        And what do you want to say? The population of the USSR was three times larger than Germany, and so what?

        Quote: 123
        Sorry for the inaccuracy, but this does not change the essence of the matter. The Pavlov’s House in Stalingrad lasted longer than the whole of Poland.

        So what? The speed of advance of the Wehrmacht in the USSR was higher than in Poland. Will you also make any crushing conclusions from this?

        Quote: 123
        Come on, and what has changed dramatically over these 2 years?

        First number 39, second 41
        Number 3 / 200
        Tanks 3100/6200 (The 39 is mainly wedges)
        Aircraft 4100/6800
        Guns and mortars 15000/43000
        During this time, Germany, from the rogue of Europe, which can only rely on its resources, has become its ruler, having conquered half of Europe, the remainder either became allies or was treated with friendly neutrality. And, accordingly, Germany used the resources of all of Europe.
        In my opinion, pretty much everything has changed dramatically.

        Quote: 123
        No, starvation is unacceptable. And what about the famine in Poland and Romania in 1932-1933 ??? Are they the same “ghouls” like Stalin, or were there other objective circumstances?

        If, due to their criminal incompetence, people suffered and died, then yes. But it seems to me, this is the same fake as 5 million deaths in the United States.

        Quote: 123
        Claiming that the USSR lost the soldiers as much as everyone else, especially (opponents and allies), you are simply lying impudently.

        Answer your words?

        https://www.interfax.ru/russia/479070

        USSR 12 million
        The total loss of soldiers in World War II (including Burma and Ethiopia) is 24,5 million.
        It would be nice to apologize.

        Quote: 123
        You won’t believe it, but the mortality rate is constantly decreasing, you’ll probably laugh, but before the revolution, mortality was much higher than in the “most prosperous” pre-war years (with the exception of the famine of 1933)

        http://istmat.info/node/38432

        I propose to think about it, otherwise it turns out that Nicholas II the executioner is worse than Stalin?

        You first understand what mortality is.
        And the site is correct.

        Quote: 123
        Yes, I do not bother, I gave information for consideration. Do you agree that the approach to assessing the activities of statesmen should be one and not biased? Without any enthusiastic nonsense about the "era of humanism."

        I agree. Evaluate the impartial activity of the statesman Vlasov.
        Yes, at least the same Gorbachev and Yeltsin.
        History is a corrupt girl of imperialism (in the sense of power), they rubbed that Peter is great and wise, which means that the majority believes that it is. They rub that Stalin is a bloody tyrant, for most he is a bloody tyrant, they rub that he is an effective manager, for most he is an effective manager.
      5. 123 Online
        123 (123) 20 January 2020 11: 05
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        What are you? Was Blitzkrieg a defensive concept?

        Of course not, they were advancing, the plan came in handy to the aggressor, the USSR did not attack, but defended, respectively, the plan of offensive action was not implemented.

        Will it be a revelation for you that the general talents of Stalin in the same war with Poland were also fully revealed?

        No, it will not. I. Stalin, a member of the Revolutionary Military Council of the Southwestern Front ..... The army was led by Tukhachevsky, and not a member of the Revolutionary Military Council .... You still try to make out the decisive role of Brezhnev in the defeat of the Wehrmacht. laughing

        And what do you want to say? The population of the USSR was three times larger than Germany, and so what?

        I want to say that total mobilization was not carried out either in Germany or in Poland, so it makes no sense to compare the mobilization potential. In terms of the number of troops involved, the difference was not so overwhelming.

        So what? The speed of advance of the Wehrmacht in the USSR was higher than in Poland. Will you also make any crushing conclusions from this?

        Of course I will. As you say, the Wehrmacht significantly “added” in two pre-war years. It was not easy, they retreated, but fought to the death. The most "high-profile feat" of the Polish army of Westerplatte. 205 people defended the warehouses .... a whole week .. fellow .... 15 people were lost in battles, after which they heroically surrendered. winked That's all. Speed ​​of advance ..... Poles did not have any will to resist, apparently, they were not opposed.

        First number 39, second 41
        Number 3 / 200
        Tanks 3100/6200 (The 39 is mainly wedges)
        Aircraft 4100/6800
        Guns and mortars 15000/43000
        During this time, Germany, from the rogue of Europe, which can only rely on its resources, has become its ruler, having conquered half of Europe, the remainder either became allies or was treated with friendly neutrality. And accordingly, Germany used the resources of all of Europe.
        In my opinion, pretty much everything has changed dramatically.

        And someone not so long ago .... "German metal scrap tanks" and so on ... repeat Make up your mind, either remove the cross or put on your underpants.

        If, due to their criminal incompetence, people suffered and died, then yes. But it seems to me, this is the same fake as 5 million deaths in the United States.

        What's again? belay Inconvenient facts, right? They break such a harmonious version of a tyrant who is taking the last piece of bread from the peasants. After all, if we compare the data, it turns out that in the three neighboring states and one overseas, there was also hunger, therefore, this disaster was natural in nature, and the factors - collectivization and industrialization - were secondary and only exacerbated the problem. After all, neither in Poland, nor in Hungary, nor in the USA were they carried out. Therefore, it’s easier to declare everything fake. After all, there is nothing to refute.

        Answer your words?
        USSR 12 million. The total loss of soldiers in World War II (including Burma and Ethiopia) is 24,5 million.

        I will answer. yes

        ... losses of the Armed Forces (USSR) amounted to 8 military personnel ..
        the military casualties of Germany and its allies, who fought in Europe against the USSR, were great and to a large extent predetermined the complete defeat and surrender of their armed forces. Irrevocable losses alone amounted to more than 8,5 million people.

        https://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/[email protected]

        I think that the Ministry of Defense understands such issues better than Interfax journalists. And the figure of 12 million appeared by counting in the books of registration of military registration and enlistment offices, all notifications, including those sent at the request of relatives, often a notice for one person to different military enlistment offices, were taken into account. Notices were issued to partisans, militias, etc. Such data cannot be called correct. Add the Chinese to the German data, the Kuomintang - according to various sources, from 1,8 to 4 million.

        https://document.wikireading.ru/16872

        Chinese armed forces who fought with the Japanese 2 to 3,2 million

        http://argumentua.com/stati/kitai-vo-vtoroi-mirovoi-neizvestnyi-podvig-soten-millionov

        Burma you can add yourself, wherever you prefer.

        It would be nice to apologize.

        Do you think there is reason? sad

        You first understand what mortality is.

        As I understand it, in essence there are no comments. request

        I agree. Evaluate the impartial activity of the statesman Vlasov. Yes, at least the same Gorbachev and Yeltsin.

        From my point of view, he is not a statesman, he was just a general in the army. Maybe he became one in Germany? Probably not. If you think it is, yourself and evaluate. But I evaluate Gorbachev and Yeltsin, and the comparison is often not in their favor.

        History is a corrupt girl of imperialism (in the sense of power), they rubbed that Peter is great and wise, so the majority believes that it is. They rub that Stalin is a bloody tyrant, for most he is a bloody tyrant, they rub that he is an effective manager, for most he is an effective manager.

        A corrupt story ... the authorities are rubbing .... Is that you as an excuse? Are you like a weather vane? Where did the wind blow there and turned? Learn to make up your mind.
  • 321 Offline
    321 (321) 18 January 2020 09: 03
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    Quote: Oleg Rambover
    .
    Quote: 123
    Meet the Stalinists, say hello.

    Pass it on to your mirror 321, for example. ...

    Look in your mirror more often and yourself, well, right along Lavrov ....

    Quote: Oleg Rambover
    ... The Stalinist USSR did not exist even 40. The era of humanism is now and it is unlikely that the tyrant who is so dismissive of the life of his fellow citizens will enjoy popularity ...

    It didn’t exist, “thanks” to people like you — you wanted a lot of sausages — you get it, for some reason, however, you’re tortured to enumerate everything there - BUT in every store, eat it, and you and your relatives, and I in the old fashioned way, I’ll eat that sausage that was started and continues to be made back in the days of the USSR, but you’re tormented to find it yourself - you make a normal sausage a bit, relatively, of course, but if you manage to get it, good luck in your search))) reap the fruits of your liberalism, and as for popularity - well, dream on. hi
  • 321 Offline
    321 (321) 15 January 2020 23: 20
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    Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover)
    - you again want to "source"? This is Yakovlev’s ... well, let there be education, am sorry, you can not call it the true name, the moderators will not understand ...
    Everything is as usual - you make an elephant from a fly and immediately start trading in ivory, nothing changes for you ...
    1. Oleg Rambover Offline
      Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 15 January 2020 23: 38
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      Read here:

      http://opisi.garf.su/pdf/gulag4/04.pdf
  • Arkharov Offline
    Arkharov (Grigory Arkharov) 16 January 2020 08: 38
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    Radikal
    And if, for example, it’s not under 40, but under 35, or 30, does this change anything for you personally? In this case, ghouls can be justified, or how?
  • Radikal Offline
    Radikal 15 January 2020 18: 32
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    Quote: Oleg Rambover
    Well let's count
    600 thousand dispossession
    7 million famines during collectivization
    700 thousand victims of great terror
    1,5 million died in the camps
    27 million victims of WWII
    1,5 million hunger 48 years
    A total of 38 with a small million people.
    Something like this

    Whose numbers are they? winked
    1. Oleg Rambover Offline
      Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 15 January 2020 18: 59
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      https://www.interfax.ru/russia/479070

      https://duma.consultant.ru/documents/

      You a couple.
      1. 123 Online
        123 (123) 17 January 2020 07: 44
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        (Oleg Rambover)
        Are you again broadcasting Stalin’s losses in World War II? If a meteorite fell in those years, is it his fault too?
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Port Offline
    Port 15 January 2020 22: 42
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    Quote: Oleg Rambover
    Under 40 million corpses of Soviet citizens he gave.

    It’s much more interesting to count the victims of American fascism, otherwise Stalin and Stalin.
    1. 321 Offline
      321 (321) 15 January 2020 23: 25
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      These robots don’t pour buns for it, so all this will go on and on - and the numbers taken from such "sources" with such an odor, and the complete absence of causal relationships - when it is profitable for them, BUT they themselves will not calm down ...
    2. 123 Online
      123 (123) 17 January 2020 07: 45
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      It’s much more interesting to count the victims of American fascism, otherwise Stalin and Stalin.

      Let's start with "killed a population of Native American nationality"? laughing
  • Yuri 5347 Offline
    Yuri 5347 (Yuri) 16 January 2020 11: 20
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    ... objectively, except for nuclear waste - imported for reprocessing.
  • Radikal Offline
    Radikal 16 January 2020 13: 37
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    Quote: Oleg Rambover
    https://www.interfax.ru/russia/479070
    https://duma.consultant.ru/documents/955838?items=1&page=1
    Here are a couple

    I would send this address to one place, but Zarathustra does not allow .... lol wassat
    1. Oleg Rambover Offline
      Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 17 January 2020 13: 02
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      Are you talking about the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation or about the State Duma of the Russian Federation?
  • Radikal Offline
    Radikal 17 January 2020 22: 11
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    Quote: Oleg Rambover
    Are you talking about the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation or about the State Duma of the Russian Federation?

    Both. sad
  • 69 Offline
    69 18 January 2020 10: 52
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    He made it clear that enemies must be destroyed, and not only external ones.
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  • Citizen Mѣshkov (Sergѣi) 29 February 2020 03: 23
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    You can find out at least a third of the 364 new cities that were built during the reign of Stalin.