The detachments of Stalin: an order to save the Fatherland?

On the threshold is the anniversary of the next turning point of the Great Patriotic War. On July 28, 1942, People's Commissar of Defense of the USSR Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin signed order No. 227 - "On measures to strengthen discipline and order in the Red Army and the prohibition of unauthorized withdrawal from combat positions." He went down in history under the title "Not a Step Back!" - according to the most important quotation from the document, most fully expounding its meaning and essence.

This decision of the leadership of the country and the army, unequivocally, played a huge role in achieving Victory, not contested by even the most stubborn of liberal "historians." At the same time, it was they who invariably raised them “to the shield” when trying to prove that we took the upper hand over Nazi Germany “at too high a price”. It is order No. 227 and its consequences that are some of the favorite arguments of the throaty and ignorant adherents of the sect "filled up with corpses." Where is the truth? Let's get it right.

The anger and shame of the Supreme

As you know, initially the text of the historical order was prepared by Marshal Vasilevsky - the then chief of the General Staff of the Red Army. However, Stalin, who took him for editing, literally did not leave the marshal’s version of stone on stone, rewriting almost from the first to the last letter. Accordingly, Order No. 227 is more a political document than a military one. The fierce spirit of the Supreme is there in every line, making us more than half a century later feel the intensity of passions that reigned in those truly fateful days for our Motherland. We must pay tribute to Stalin - courage and frankness in his address to the soldiers and commanders of the Red Army showed incredible. Firstly, the head of state, party and army openly admitted: the country is on the verge of destruction. There is nowhere to retreat, for further - only collapse and complete rout. Secondly, for the first time, perhaps from the start of the war, he loudly and clearly declared the superiority of the enemy. Having suffered tremendous territorial losses, the USSR lost most of its resource and food base, which now fell into the hands of the enemy, and has no more advantage in either people or reserves. Moreover, Stalin did not keep silent about the fact that the Wehrmacht has superiority over the Red Army - in "order and discipline in the troops."

Well, and finally, in the third, the Supreme voiced a bitter truth, which it was considered impossible to speak out loud until then: the Soviet people are not just “disappointed” in their defenders, “flowing to the East” - sometimes he “curses” them. Stalin not only demanded that everyone who stood up for the defense of the Homeland stand death in the very literal sense of the word, he tried to inform and shame those who, as he wrote, tried to justify their shameful behavior at the front with thoughts that , they say, the country is large and there are many people in it. The USSR is not a desert! - the Supreme alarmists and cowards reminded angrily. These are the people whom, retreating, we surrender to the yoke of the German oppressors - our wives and mothers, children, brothers and sisters. Say what you want, but I never met Stalin's phrases so saturated with violent pain and burning shame ... Yes, he also said that while continuing to roll back under the pressure of the Nazis: we would be left without bread, metal, factories and railways losing which war never win.

However, people still stood in the first place. Stalin demanded self-sacrifice from the war veterans? Yes! However, let's be honest - the soldier at the forefront had weapons, there was a chance to survive even in the most terrible battle. But civilians who found themselves in the occupied territory did not have these chances - they could not defend themselves from a bullet, a loop or hijacking into Nazi slavery. In the end, this is the military share in all centuries and times - to defend the native land and the people living on it. After this, the Stalinist order can be called "hateful" and "cannibalistic" only by gentlemen with a completely incurable brain liberoid syndrome.

Was there any way to retreat?

But how it all began well! In May Day order No. 130 of the Supreme Commander-in-Chief from 1942, it was clearly and unequivocally stated that this year the Hitlerite bastards should be completely defeated and expelled from Soviet soil.

It would seem that everything went to that - the war machine of the Third Reich for the first time in its entire existence suffered a crushing defeat near Moscow. The soldiers and commanders of the Red Army were convinced that the Nazis could and should be beaten. The horror and shame of the first months of the war were erased, when it seemed that the Wehrmacht was indestructible and it would not be possible to stop its blitzkrieg. One after another, military enterprises evacuated from the Urals, operating at the limit of strength and giving the front the necessary weapons, entered into service machineryammunition. The call made it possible not only to restore the bloodless units and formations of the Red Army in 1941, but also to create as many as 9 reserve armies of the Headquarters of the Supreme High Command. It was time to launch a decisive attack in order to crush the fascist reptile once and for all! The offensive and struck - in the Kharkov direction. But only in the end it turned into one of the most terrible catastrophes of the Red Army during the entire Great Patriotic War. More than a quarter of a million dead, wounded and prisoners! The Nazis took Crimea and Sevastopol, reached the Volga and the Caucasus, captured Voronezh and Rostov-on-Don, advanced to Stalingrad. Everything hung in the balance ...

There really was nowhere to retreat! Modern “humanists”, liberal “strategists”, marshals of armchairs, their feet and the fence, love to be clever: “We had to protect people! To leave the Urals, to form new armies there, and already from there to beat the Germans! ” Yeah, how ... They would give us a move, and even more so, to form something. With the loss of Stalingrad, the USSR would lose vital communications. Having given the Nazis the Lower Volga region, the country and the army would have been left without bread and oil from the Caspian. And with the Caucasus it is even worse - it was there that at least 95% of Soviet oil was produced. What kind of war is fuelless ?! Moreover, the capture of the Caucasus and Stalingrad by the Wehrmacht would mean the absolutely imminent entry into the war of Turkey and Japan - on the side of the Third Reich, of course. The Turks simply would have no choice but to choose: to become Hitler satellites or to be occupied. And, of course, Istanbul’s eternal desire to “cut its own lands” in the Caucasus would play a role. Something like the Germans, persuading the Turks to war against the USSR, they were promised.

Retreat beyond the Urals, speak? It’s just that the millionth Kwantung army would flood into the Far East. It was later, in 1945, that we threw the samurai on the ears, one might say, without any particular problems. In 1942, there is no doubt that everything would be somewhat different. Allies? Oh, yes, they were preparing ... to bomb the oil fields of Baku, Grozny and Maykop so that they would not go to Germany. And what did you think - were you planning to land troops there to help our troops? Line two ... The option of separate negotiations between London and Washington with Hitler if the Red Army continued the retreat, many historians also do not dismiss. There was nowhere to retreat, which is already there - here Stalin did not dissemble and did not exaggerate. Indeed, the terrible order No. 227 did not stop the withdrawal of our troops in one fell swoop, like a magic wand. But he changed something elusively in people, made someone think, some were ashamed, and someone simply scared to frost between the shoulder blades. In war, this is sometimes necessary.

About penal battalions and detachments

Reprimanding the Supreme for some “fanatical fabrications” introduced by the frenzied “Not a step back!”, Our (and not only) liberals once again demonstrate an abhorrent knowledge of military history - both domestic and world. And in fact, what is so unprecedentedly cruel that Stalin introduced by this order? Shooting for leaving combat positions without an order? So for this they were against the wall as far back as 1941 - and not only the “green lieutenants” and “emaciated battalions,” as again the “sad people’s people”, but the commanders of the divisions, armies and fronts, are trying to present. In my article on June 22, the list is also given - the truth is very, very incomplete. You might think that deserters, defeatists, and alarmists, before order No. 227, gently smoked and transferred to reinforced rations to correct shaky health ... What else? Oh yes - the penalty units! It is for this "Stalinist fiction" that our "progressive public" has grasped at one time with the stubbornness of a brainless tick, and to this day cannot fall off. After all, the whole mythology was erected on human blood, bastards! Only the film of the same name, in which the historical truth is less than 0.0001% of what it costs. Everything there is a lie: from the “Tverdokhlebov’s penal battalion commander” (such units were commanded exclusively by combat officers, the best of them), to seasoned criminals with “political"Convicts in one trench. Yes, there were none of those in the penal battalions! As there were no cases where a fighter who was injured three times returned again and again to the “penalty” system. Delirium, delirium and delirium ...

And there were no penal battalions, companies and squadrons made up by the Supreme. After all, he honestly speaks in the order that generated them - this idea is drawn from the Germans. There similar units appeared back in 1940 and were a hundred times worse than ours. At least by the fact that the period of stay in the Soviet penal battalion was calculated at a maximum of three months - or until the first injury. In the Wehrmacht, this was practically a “life sentence”. It was just that this life was far from short-lived - the Nazis didn’t solder their fines with Bavarian sausages either, but threw them over and over again into the heat. And no injuries or heroism counted! How many were there? The cunning Fritzs did not leave accurate statistics, but given that according to the German archives, only during the winter campaign of 1941-1942, the Wehrmacht military tribunals condemned (including those sent to the penal units) more than 60 thousand people ... Think for yourself . Today, a mass of genuine memoirs of veterans of the Great Patriotic War is available (including - in the form of quite good films), past penal battles and considering them good - naturally, in comparison with the execution on the spot or the camp. The penalty allowed to "wash away the blood" with guilt and start everything from the place where the fighter or officer stumbled. And here's another thing - for the entire Great Patriotic War, about 428 thousand people fought in penal units. This is just over 1.2% of all warriors who passed through her crucible. All the talk that “they won the war by filling up the Germans with the corpses of fines” is not just a blatant lie, but one of the most vile speculations on a holy topic.

Well, and finally, detachments. Stalin invented them too ?! But didn’t Xenophon write about the special teams of soldiers who were called to instill greater fear in cowards than enemies and punish the faint-hearted death that existed in the ancient army? And in the Russian Imperial Army, during the First World War, there were such units - albeit under a different name. Read Brusilov - very lucidly stated. And if we take a “humane and enlightened Europe” ... the Prussians, the distant ancestors of Hitler’s future “Aryans”, had the so-called “wing companies”, ruthlessly shooting those who tried to escape. No one other than Frederick the Great wrote about a soldier risking his life halfway, going forward and losing it for sure, turning back. The French have exactly the same story - they started firing at buckshot in the back with flailing units under Napoleon, at least. And continued into the First World War. In the Second, they preferred to “tilt up” their legs “civilized” and lie under the Germans - well, that’s their business ... By the way, the creation of detachments in the Red Army in no way can be attributed to Stalin. Such units from the NKVD fighters a month after the start of the war were created by order of Lorenius Beria. In the army, the initiative was shown by the commander of the Bryansk Front, General Eremenko (asking for permission from the Supreme) in early September 1941. It turned out to be extremely useful practice took root and quickly spread throughout the Red Army.

By the way, directing depicting fighters of detachments in liberoidal “historical” films exclusively in the form of “Beria’s cutthroats” in cornflower-blue caps, the directors either deliberately breshet or simply don’t know a damn story. The army barrage detachments, created in pursuance of Order No. 227, consisted of the most common "blue-legged infantry", and had nothing to do with the NKVD - with the exception of commanders. They obeyed the command of the respective armies, "closing" to a special department. “Who cares how they were dressed up ?! - I foresee ardent objections, the main thing is that they were punishers and murderers who were only engaged in this, that they shot poor soldiers and planted heroic “fines” from machine guns in the back! And here's a shish, gentlemen are good! One of the remarkable features of the NKVD, brought to perfection by Lavrentiy Beria, was very accurate and detailed statistics. Here are the numbers from the certificate of this department on the activities of the barrage detachments created, according to order No. 227, on October 15, 1942. Those were detained more than 140 thousand (!) Of the Red Army, who arbitrarily left the front. What do you think has become of these fugitives? Shot, of course? Or, no, it’s not so - they shot half of them, and they trapped the second in penal battalions and companies, “for slaughter”, right ?! And no! Less than 1200 deserters were shot. Less than 3 thousand got into fines. Rest? “Sent to their units and to transit points for further service” ...

So much for the "atrocities". How do you like that? On September 13, 1942, the 112th Infantry Division rolled back from its positions “under enemy pressure”. What does the detachment of the 62nd Army, standing in its rear, do? Mercilessly shoots the retreating? No - his fighters occupy the defense at the abandoned line, and, reflecting the attacks of superior enemy forces and inflicting heavy losses on him, they held positions for 4 days until the regular units replaced them. Another detachment of the same army two days later fights in the vicinity of the railway station of Stalingrad, and despite its small number, leaves its position only after the approach of units of the 10th rifle division. Or one more thing: taking part in one of the attacks, a detachment detachment of the 29th Army of the Western Front of 118 personnel lost 109 people killed and wounded ... detachments of the 6th Army of the Voronezh Front were brought into battle on September 4, 1942, as a result of which they lost up to 70% of the personnel ... It looks like “punishers who shot in the back” ?! Or is it not so?

Perhaps brighter than all, one of the best writers of the Great Patriotic War, Konstantin Simonov, said about the effect and significance of order No. 227. He recalled that after reading "Not a step back!" everyone was seized by the feeling of the abyss widening ahead - “either to jump over or perish."

The Red Army managed to stop on the edge of this abyss: it kept the Caucasus (although, following historical truth, this battle was won not so much by the Red Army as the NKVD, with the enormous personal participation of Lavrenty Beria), tightly clung to the frozen soaked land of Stalingrad and it was there that it began jump ”to victory, which ended at the walls of the Reichstag. And the beginning of everything was order No. 227 ...
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  1. Igor Pavlovich Offline Igor Pavlovich
    Igor Pavlovich (Igor Pavlovich) 13 July 2019 08: 01
    It is necessary to introduce a bill to the Duma on the celebration of each of the 1500 days of the Second World War - and the people will be busy, and the spirituality of the nation will increase, and they will think less about an empty wallet and a refrigerator ...
  2. ver_ Offline ver_
    ver_ (Vera) 13 July 2019 08: 23
    ... an innocent angel - a raider and a thief, a Jew Dzhugashvili, who did not come to his mother’s funeral ..
  3. steelmaker Offline steelmaker
    steelmaker 13 July 2019 08: 54
    The author is GOOD! Such articles should be included in school curricula!
  4. Bakht Offline Bakht
    Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 13 July 2019 09: 31
    The first case of decimation was noted in 471 BC.
  5. Oleg RB Offline Oleg RB
    Oleg RB (Oleg) 13 July 2019 10: 20
    Stalin's dumb "genius" led to further dumb decisions that snowball.
    The USSR was saved only by the availability of human resources, which plugged all the holes of mediocre politics.
    1. ver_ Offline ver_
      ver_ (Vera) 14 July 2019 15: 57
      ... and slave labor in the Gulag, where the gates were wide open ... and the life of the prisoner was worthless ...
  6. steelmaker Offline steelmaker
    steelmaker 13 July 2019 13: 33
    The number of people in RUSSIA - USSR:
    1913 -159,2 million
    1924 - 146 million people.
    1940 - 194,1 million people
    1950 - 178,8 million people.
    1959 - 208,8 million people.
    1977 - 257,9 million people
    The natural decline in the population of the USSR, until about 1940, amounted to 4,5 million people. in year. Over the 25 years of Stalin’s reign, even with the Second World War, the population of the USSR increased by 30 million people.

    Know everything in comparison, compare yourself with others.

    And now, the haters of STALIN, your compelling examples. Chatting - not tossing bags.
    1. Oleg RB Offline Oleg RB
      Oleg RB (Oleg) 13 July 2019 14: 13
      In-in - "women are still giving birth."
      1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Vladimir Tuzakov (Vladimir Tuzakov) 13 July 2019 15: 39
      You have calculated the annexed Baltic states and the western regions of Belarus and Ukraine. And the census was only in 1959 ... Your 30 million is based on the annexation of territories. Here in Russia there is only a LOSS from the "genius of all times and peoples" and according to all different calculations it is still tens of millions. And commentator Oleg RB is right ...
      1. Bakht Offline Bakht
        Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 13 July 2019 16: 25
        The population of the Russian Federation (only the Russian Federation)

        What amazes me (no longer surprises me) is the complete lack of logic and a sense of shame among liberals. No remorse or guilt. Was the Russian Empire destroyed by the communists? No, liberals. Was the USSR destroyed by the communists? Liberals and "common people". Millions of deaths in the 90s. These villains have blood on their hands up to the elbows. Or, as they said about Gorbachev, "to the very bald spot." No Stalin can hold a candle to these liberals. They are responsible for millions of dead. And at least someone repented ...
        I love watching Hollywood action movies. Do you know why the good always win in them? Because in Hollywood, the good ones shoot right away, and the bad ones talk for a long time. But there are no good brakes. As with our liberals and "common people". I do not agree - immediately from a tank gun in Parliament.
        As for the order 227. The order is correct, mobilizing. I don’t want to argue about the "million dead". Again, crush the water in the mortar.
        1. Anton Sobyanin Offline Anton Sobyanin
          Anton Sobyanin (Anton Sobyanin) 13 July 2019 19: 25
          It was the Communists who destroyed the Russian Empire when the interim government was weak, because the main forces participated in the First World War. But the Soviets were not destroyed by liberals and Gorbachev, and not even America, but by a completely idiotic economic policy. In the mid-eighties, OPEC countries lifted the restriction on oil production, and its prices plummeted 4 times. As a result, the Soviets did not have money to pay for imported products, because the ruble was a piece of paper that could only be wiped out - no one needed it on the international market. And I hasten to remind you that under Tsarist Russia we were the largest importer of grain, and by the 60s we began to purchase it ourselves (here you have the benefits of collectivization). No one gave loans to the Soviets either, because it was an unreliable borrower. As a result, by the year 89 there was a deficit and hunger. The collapse was inevitable. The USSR was a utopia with absolute cretins in power.
          Why am I? Learn history and do not write your nonsense - do not powder people’s brains.
          1. Bakht Offline Bakht
            Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 13 July 2019 19: 54
            Have you read Denikin?
            The Russian Empire was ruined by liberals and no one else. Everything else can also be challenged. But why? The illiterate needs a Primer, not scientific works.
            Think what you want.
            1. Anton Sobyanin Offline Anton Sobyanin
              Anton Sobyanin (Anton Sobyanin) 13 July 2019 20: 12
              Who do you think are liberals? Cadets? Whom?
              I completely forgot. The same liberals took Winter. The same liberals staged a red terror. The same liberals signed a separate peace with Germany. The same liberals allowed Poland and Finland to gain independence.
              And what do you want to challenge? Lower oil prices? Grain imports? Shortage?
              Appealing to the literacy of a person writing from a mobile phone is such a move.
              1. Bakht Offline Bakht
                Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 13 July 2019 20: 20
                You did not understand. I mean the collapse of the Russian Empire. This is February 1917. And idiotic orders.
                However, do not bother. The account created for trolling does not interest me. Recently, the third account (hot as a pie) is trying to troll.
                Tell me, what are the subversors so afraid of? Do not show your ignorance here. Have you seen the table? Beginning in the mid-90s, a decline in the population. Millions of the dead. Literally millions. And the collapse of the country. And not even a gram of remorse. Everyone is trying to get the blame on the healthy. No need to repent ...
                If you want to discuss something, return to the topic of the article. The order is correct. The detachments always and everywhere existed. Stalin did not come up with anything new.
                In World War I, Clemenceau ordered the execution of several regiments that had abandoned the trenches. Brusilov ordered the execution of anyone who left the position. In the Battle of Poltava, Peter the Great ordered to shoot anyone who runs.
                1. Anton Sobyanin Offline Anton Sobyanin
                  Anton Sobyanin (Anton Sobyanin) 13 July 2019 20: 26
                  But illiteracy is shown by you. Your plate only speaks of statistics, nothing more. You can shove it to yourself far away. To make it more clear: you had 5 children, 2 of them were shot, but the statistical population growth still remained. And the fact that in the 90s they stopped giving birth only says that they stopped giving birth.
                  1. Bakht Offline Bakht
                    Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 13 July 2019 20: 28
                    Sexual perversions are usually noticeable in liberals. Essentially nothing to say?
                    The population grew during the USSR and falls during the Russian Federation. It is a fact. Put everything else to yourself. Wherever you want. This is none of my business.
                    1. Anton Sobyanin Offline Anton Sobyanin
                      Anton Sobyanin (Anton Sobyanin) 13 July 2019 20: 32
                      He just essentially answered, almost on his fingers. Numbers without context - only numbers. If it is not clear to you even on the fingers, then I wash my hands.
                      1. Bakht Offline Bakht
                        Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 13 July 2019 20: 36
                        Explain the context on the graveyard to the dead.
                        As for your knowledge of the history of quotation cited. Learn the history of your country. I am not engaged in literacy campaign (literally - elimination of illiteracy).
              2. Bakht Offline Bakht
                Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 13 July 2019 20: 34

                March 16 (29), 1917, the Provisional Government of Russia recognized the right of Poland to independence.

                On March 7 (20), 1917, the Provisional Government issued an Act approving the Constitution of the Grand Duchy of Finland, returning to Finland all the rights of autonomy.

                In late June - early July, negotiations were held in Kiev with a delegation of the Provisional Government - Minister of War and Naval A.F. Kerensky, Minister of Foreign Affairs M.I. Tereshchenko, Minister of Post and Telegraph I.G. Tsereteli, to which Minister joined ways of communication N.V. Nekrasov. Following the talks, the delegation stated that the Provisional Government would not object to the autonomy of Ukraine.
                1. Bakht Offline Bakht
                  Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 13 July 2019 20: 44

                  “None other than the internationalist Lenin stood guard over Russian national interests, who in his constant speeches did not spare his strength to protest against the division of the former Russian Empire, appealing to the working people of the whole world.”

                  A problem for "common people" and other liberals. Whose words are these? Learn history! ...
                  1. Neurocrop Online Neurocrop
                    Neurocrop (Alexander) 13 July 2019 22: 08
                    As always - many thanks for the comments and discussion!
                    It strikes your ability to correctly try to lead it even with complete idiots ... I bow to your patience, comparable only to your erudition.
                    More to such readers!
                    1. Anton Sobyanin Offline Anton Sobyanin
                      Anton Sobyanin (Anton Sobyanin) 15 July 2019 01: 25
                      No, well, if the author of the opus himself unsubscribed, then probably it is. No, that doesn't work like that.
                      You have no idea about the number of people, technology, the nature of technology on both sides. And, accordingly, about the chances of the Germans to win. And write your pseudo-analyst about the need for order 227.
                2. Anton Sobyanin Offline Anton Sobyanin
                  Anton Sobyanin (Anton Sobyanin) 15 July 2019 01: 40
                  Oh, the substitution of concepts has begun) Explain to the blessed that they are blessed, an ungrateful occupation, but I will try.
                  Autonomy and independence. Finland's independence of December 6, 17th from the Soviet government.
                3. Dmitry Dyomin Offline Dmitry Dyomin
                  Dmitry Dyomin (Anton Sobyanin) 15 July 2019 02: 31
                  Something I missed the moment when autonomy became equal to independence. You would tie up with a substitution of concepts. And they would start with logic, with secondary education (in no case Soviet).
                  Finland gained independence on December 6 of the 17th year already from Soviet Russia. Advice!!! It was the Soviets that destroyed the Russian Empire and lost a large territory.
                  1. Bakht Offline Bakht
                    Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 15 July 2019 06: 47
                    Autonomy is the first step towards independence. It was the Provisional Government that adopted the acts of autonomy. And why didn’t he write about Poland? How is this consistent with Yeltsin?

                    Take sovereignty as much as you can!

                    Now prove to me that sovereignty is not independence.
                    Didn’t you guess the task? Grand Duke Alexander Mikhailovich Romanov. Grandson of Emperor Nicholas the First.
                    1. Bakht Offline Bakht
                      Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 15 July 2019 07: 45

                      In general, the main consequence of the February Revolution can be considered not the establishment of "democracy" and not the overthrow of the king, but the demolition of state power as such. The further existence of the country was no longer ensured by power, but by the inertia of the previous power. Which acted for another eight months, gradually fading, exerting less and less impact on the population, and, accordingly, receiving less return and support. And by October 1917, this power had weakened so much that it almost completely ceased to be considered, and therefore anyone who wanted to could seize it without much difficulty. Wanted, as you know, the Bolsheviks.

                      General A.I. Denikin subsequently wrote:

                      “When they repeat at every step that the Bolsheviks were the cause of the collapse, I protest. Others destroyed Russia, and the Bolsheviks were just filthy worms that wound up in the abscesses of her body. ”
                      Indeed, honest and sincere liberals, democrats and socialists, who fetishized the “gains of the revolution” and were drowning in mutual squabbles in the struggle for power, were ruining the country.

                      And how was it possible to preserve the old psychological foundations of the "Fatherland" if the Fatherland itself began to fall apart quickly with the loss of the vertical of power and its main levers? Both national and regional problems surfaced - more by the efforts of local politicians than by the local population. Finland, Ukraine, the Baltic states, the Caucasus, the Cossacks, and Siberia announced some sovereignty, some autonomy. But the central government could not and did not want to react to all this bacchanalia properly. Firstly, without any means of influence that it knocked out from under itself, and secondly, without considering itself it has the right to be likened to “royal satraps”, since such phenomena fit well with the proclaimed “freedoms”. And if so, then the concept of "Fatherland" began to cringe to the limits of its province, its village and its yard.
                  2. Bakht Offline Bakht
                    Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 15 July 2019 06: 56
              3. Ehanatone Offline Ehanatone
                Ehanatone 14 July 2019 02: 40

                Who do you think are liberals? Cadets? Whom?
                I completely forgot. The same liberals took Winter.

                They didn’t take Zimny, he was just lying around, useless, and incapable of anything, he was simply kicked, passing by ...
                But in February 1917, it was the liberals and the current oligarchs, together with some generals, who overthrew the tsar, and a little before that some comrade Ulyanov V.L. complained somewhere in Switzerland:

                We no longer have time to see the triumph of the proletariat,

                because we have time to grow old, and oh, God forbid, even though I am an atheist, die ...,
                our children are also doubtful, maybe only grandchildren ... (tear stingy male in the eye) ...
                The end of the scene ...
                But what liberals were able to do in 1917 and 1987 was to organize artificial hunger, empty shelves in stores and chaos in management, however, the latter is a genetically inherent property from birth!
                1. Dmitry Dyomin Offline Dmitry Dyomin
                  Dmitry Dyomin (Anton Sobyanin) 15 July 2019 02: 47
                  What are you saying? Directly overthrown? The king himself denied power. But it was the Communists who shot him. An interim government was needed in order to organize elections where the Communists could also participate. But the leader of the world revolution had a different opinion on this subject. So he just overthrew the interim government, so as not to share power with anyone.
                  Can you tell me how the liberals were to blame for this in the 87th year? Where did the liberals have power in the 87th? The Soviets are in power, and the liberals are to blame. Can you hear yourself?
          2. Ehanatone Offline Ehanatone
            Ehanatone 14 July 2019 02: 03

            The Soviets were not ruined by liberals and Gorbachev, and not even America, but by a completely idiotic economic policy. In the mid-eighties, OPEC countries lifted the restriction on oil production, and its prices plummeted 4 times. As a result, the Soviets did not have money to pay for imported products, because the ruble was a piece of paper that could only be wiped out - no one needed it on the international market. And I hasten to remind you that under Tsarist Russia ...

            Do not rush, you are our unscrupulous ...
            After all, it was all recently, there are documents, there are memories of enlightened people, what yes ...
            And, according to these recollections, a group of a Western economic guru, Nobel laureate Leontyev, was invited to hunchback to assess the economy of the USSR, the conclusion of this group was this:

            Everything is fine with you, only very small corrections are required ...

            Something like this, you are our big-headed ...
            I’m writing not for you, Anton S, because it’s useless, but for those who suddenly read this ...
            1. Anton Sobyanin Offline Anton Sobyanin
              Anton Sobyanin (Anton Sobyanin) 15 July 2019 01: 13
              And then read Gaidar, how "good it was" with us. This is not secret information, I am writing well-known facts, but you have processed cheese instead of a brain.
        2. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
          Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 14 July 2019 14: 19
          Hmm, judging by your table, from the 26th to the 28th year the population growth is 2,3 million; from the 28th to the 37th (9 years) - 1,7 million. And in theory, it should have been 9-10 million. It seems that the 37-year-old census leaders were not just shot.
          1. Bakht Offline Bakht
            Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 14 July 2019 14: 29
            The table is not mine, but is given on Wikipedia. She didn’t appear there either. If you have other information, then Wikipedia is an OPEN library. Fill in your details, we will discuss.

            ... And in theory - there should be 9-10 million ...

            Whose idea is it? If only the link was brought. Or is it taken from the ceiling?
            1. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
              Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 14 July 2019 19: 59
              Over two years, the population grew by 2,3 million, over the next 9 (from 28 to 37, the very height of Stalin's social experiments) by 1,7. In my opinion, there should not be such sharp failures in demography without special reasons, from this we can conclude that hunger was and claimed millions of lives.
              1. Bakht Offline Bakht
                Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 14 July 2019 20: 24
                The reasons for the failures in the population may be several. I do not deny hunger in the USSR. I did not count the number of victims. Let the experts do this. But back in school, I was taught that demographic failures occur at intervals of 20 years (reproductive age). Demographic failures were in the 60s and 80s. With each next generation they are smoothed out. In the period from 1928 to 1937, families were created by people born in 1908-1917. That is, there were few of them. Of course, hunger and other delights of collectivization and industrialization also added negativity. But there were more than one reason.
                And now to the point. Even this table shows that in the most difficult times, the population grew. Despite hunger and demographic failures. And in the 90s, in the absence of external (EXTERNAL) shocks, the population fell. The conclusion is simple - the rule of the democrats turned out to be worse than the Stalinist collectivization. Who has more blood on it? I wrote only about this.
                Say, from 1984 to 1994 there was an increase of 7 million. From 1994 to 2004, a decrease of 4 million. Using your own methodology, calculate the real number of unborns .... I estimate it at 4 + 7 = 11 million. This is the price of liberal "social experiments".
                1. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
                  Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 20 July 2019 01: 30
                  Quote: Bakht
                  In the period from 1928 to 1937, families were created by people born in 1908-1917. That is, there were few of them.

                  What was not enough from 1908 to 1914? Then the population grew at 2,5 million per year. From the same wikipedia

                  Judging by these graphs, mortality in the most difficult years in the 90s was less than mortality in the most prosperous years before the war.
                  In the nineties, the population did not die of mass from starvation, but was born less, and mortality increased, but mortality was far from the USSR indicator. And to be honest, Yeltsin can be called a liberal only from a very big hangover, like Putin, whose rule was marked by a peak in population decline.
                  1. Vladimir Tuzakov (Vladimir Tuzakov) April 12 2020 12: 31
                    You can figure out why the death rate went off scale 32-34 years - so collectivization with the deportation to the North and mortality in unusable lands at the places of exile of millions of "kulaks and class aliens" ... Those are millions of "chips" from felling, - in fact, Russian people ...
                    1. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
                      Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) April 12 2020 13: 33
                      Are you this to me? Understood nothing.
    3. Igor Pavlovich Offline Igor Pavlovich
      Igor Pavlovich (Igor Pavlovich) 13 July 2019 15: 51
      Under Stalin, Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Bessarabia, Northern Bukovina, Western Ukraine, Western Belarus, Karelia, Konigsberg, Tuva, Transcarpathia, Southern Sakhalin, the Kuril Islands were "attached" ... Continue ??? Or will you count the number of "connected" ones yourself? And you can also calculate how many "joined" under Putin - the population of Russia is also "growing" ...
      ... Stalin's lover ...
    4. Ehanatone Offline Ehanatone
      Ehanatone 14 July 2019 01: 42

      The natural decline in the population of the USSR, until about 1940, amounted to 4,5 million people. in year.

      Only not until 1940, but until 1924, according to the statistics cited by you, and it was unlikely to be so natural!
  7. Rusa Offline Rusa
    Rusa 13 July 2019 16: 02
    Good publication, respect to the author.
    We must more often expose the liberals from the fifth column, agents of the State Department and falsifiers of the history of our country.
  8. Nikolay Malyugin (Nikolai Malyugin) 14 July 2019 07: 36
    I do not like to write about the war that the country experienced 75 years ago. How can I write if even in my worst nightmare I don’t dream of what people experienced during the war. Now they talk a lot about fakes. Actually, nothing has changed. A handful of truth on a mountain of lies. In general, the conversation is not about the past, but about the present. As we relate to the past, so our descendants will relate to us.
    1. Bakht Offline Bakht
      Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 14 July 2019 08: 26

      As we relate to the past, so our descendants will relate to us.

      You are right when you write that we cannot even imagine this. But we must and must write, or at least know about it. As we relate to our past, so they do not treat us like descendants - now they treat us as cattle and obedient servants of Putin. There is a direct link here. When they write about "Stalin's zombies" they mean "Putin's zombies". Perversion and humiliation of the memory of the Great Patriotic War is a purposeful war against modern Russia. History is not an abstract armchair science. This is the front of the war for the preservation of their homeland. Hence the fake publications, and the demolition of monuments, and calls to cancel the celebration. For the West, May 9 is a day of tragedy. For us, this is Victory Day. And there is no other interpretation. They have nothing to celebrate.

      This is the opinion of the war veteran:

      When you write or even mention the price of victory, tens of millions of those who died, you should not forget for a second that they all lost their lives not at will, not because of drunkenness, not in criminal showdowns or during the division of property and not in mortal battles for us. dollars and precious metals - they lost their lives defending the Fatherland, and it is indecent, sacrilegious to call them "cannon fodder", "sheep herd", "cattle" or "Stalin's zombies".
      With the Patriotic War - the greatest tragedy in the history of Russia, you must always be only "you".
      1. Nikolay Malyugin (Nikolai Malyugin) 15 July 2019 07: 15
        You are absolutely right. Any war must be approached with great tact. That is our strength, that every person is a source of new energy. Someone may have wanted to connect all thoughts into one. In our country, this is impossible.
  9. Dasha s Offline Dasha s
    Dasha s (Dasha S) 14 July 2019 12: 22
    The author is a Stalinist sneak. You would then be on the front line with a curved machine gun, otherwise you would sing.
  10. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
    Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 14 July 2019 14: 03
    The main idea is clear - the liberals are to blame (interestingly, is Mikhalkov with his "Burnt Sun - 2" also a liberal?).
    The second thought after reading the article was that the Soviet soldiers did not want to fight for the country of the Soviets, and therefore Stalin had to write this order. I don’t believe that from under the stick you can win; if there weren’t the mood of the Soviet soldiers, no orders would have helped (as in 41, for example).
    Regarding this order, I was impressed with this memory:

    In general, this order is similar to an attempt of self-justification in the Kharkov catastrophe. Who is to blame for it? Not Stalin with his generals, but, understandably, a simple Soviet soldier, an infection is fleeing.
    What all rush about with this order is not clear. There is order 270 more cannibalistic, or Zhukov’s order on the Leningrad front:

    Explain to all personnel that all families who surrendered to the enemy will be shot, and upon returning from captivity, they will also be shot.
    1. Bakht Offline Bakht
      Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 14 July 2019 14: 50
      Specifically, this order is worn because the situation was critical. It was an edge. Detachments and executions were always in all armies. And in German too. And always, starting from the first wars. Yes, there was order 270 in 1941.
      But in July 1942 the situation was much worse and the war was losing. And on all fronts.
      July 1942 The Germans go to Stalingrad and the Caucasus. This means that the country is cut in two. Communications are broken and it is impossible to protect the Caucasus and Transcaucasia. In Africa, the Germans took Tobruk and go to the Suez Canal. In Alexandria, documents are burned and evacuated. The English fleet goes to the Red Sea. In the Pacific Ocean, they only repelled the attack on Midway, but the Japanese have the advantage and are fighting for Guadalcanal. The Japanese threaten Australia. In England, Parliament is hearing the resignation of Churchill. Roosevelt sends the last tanks to Egypt. This convoy was called by the British

      last egyptian hope.

      Churchill put an end to the USSR and demanded the Polish army to defend Abadan after the Red Army collapsed.
      Order 227 clearly said:

      We are losing the war.

      This is not an act of despair or an "attempt to justify". This is a statement of fact. Many lost their hands. Even Marshal Tymoshenko (by the way, he showed himself well in 1941) fell into despondency and left in an unknown direction. They could not find him for three days. Front commander !!! The order clearly states:

      Retreating further means ruining oneself and ruining our Motherland at the same time.

      The link is good. I listened to Zia Buniyatova as a very snotty kid. He said terrible things. For me then it was a revelation. About Vlasov, too, everything is true. They rarely survived to the tribunal.
      1. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
        Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 14 July 2019 20: 26
        Joseph Vissarionovich clearly defined the reasons for the failures of the Red Army:

        What are we missing?
        There is a lack of order and discipline in companies, battalions, regiments, divisions, in tank units, in air squadrons. This is now our main drawback. We must establish the strictest order and iron discipline in our army if we want to save the situation and defend our Homeland.

        These are not miscalculations of command that led the Germans to Stalingrad, and discipline was lame.
        And why, interestingly, order 270 is not as fateful as 227? At 41 Homeland was in less danger?
        1. Bakht Offline Bakht
          Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 14 July 2019 20: 31
          In less. On August 16, 1941, the Germans were near Smolensk. Almost all of Ukraine was in the USSR. Kuban, Don, oil of the Caucasus. In the summer of 1942 all this was not.
          Of course, miscalculations of command played a huge role. The generals were no longer shot, as in the 41st. But they shot quite sharply.
        2. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
          Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 14 July 2019 21: 31
          And what, in the 41st did not decide the fate of the USSR? Hitler was planning to end the war in the 41st, he understood that Germany could not stand a long war of attrition. The 41st was no less fateful than the 42nd. In any case, I do not believe that the order could fundamentally change anything: when a person is in an extreme situation, he least of all thinks of Stalin's order.
          1. Bakht Offline Bakht
            Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 14 July 2019 23: 28
            Words do not change anything. Or they still change ... The Word still has material power. Jesus proved it. Or Mohammed. When a person knows that there is nowhere to retreat, then ... he can accomplish a feat. Or break down. Of course, no order will replace a weapon in the hands. But it can ignite the courage of the heart.
            More primitively, you can consider both orders. And 270 from the 41st year and 227 from the 42nd year. The first refers only to surrender. And focused mainly on command staff. The order is based on the results of the capture of several generals. The second is addressed to the whole army. In fact, to all the people.
            The situation of August 1941 was not critical. At that time, Stalin told Hopkins that the front line would not change until winter. Maximum 100 km east. In 1942, the USSR was already written off by the allies. The USSR was on the verge of military defeat. Or already beyond. I have repeatedly quoted Twardowski’s poems here. I don’t feel like repeating myself.
            Order 227 (as opposed to 270) showed that this was not about SOME commanders. It is about the fate of the country. And nowhere to retreat.
            In addition to research, I sometimes read fiction. Utkin "The Second World War" cannot be attributed to research (there are many factual errors). Moreover, I do not agree with him in everything. But emotionally, this is the most powerful book. And I quote him often.

            But order No. 227 could have acted if his spirit had not met the inner spirit of our people. As the English historian Overy writes, “the influence of order number 227 is easy to exaggerate. It concerned primarily officers and political workers, and not ordinary soldiers, who always had to obey strict discipline. And the order concerned an unauthorized retreat, and not all types of retreat ... There was a feeling that a desperate situation required desperate measures. One of the soldiers later described his reaction to the order “Not a step back!” in these words: “Not the text itself, but the spirit of the order made a moral, psychological and spiritual breakthrough in the hearts and minds of those to whom this order was read”. This time, Stalin did not take the side of counter-revolutionary phantoms, but the side of ordinary soldiers, plunged into the nightmare of defeat and desperate obscurity. The facts of terror are an obvious historical truth, but they can distort our understanding of Soviet military efforts. Not all soldiers stood, feeling the trunk resting on his back; not every case of selflessness and courageous resistance was the result of violence and fear. The exceptional heroism of thousands of ordinary Soviet men and women, their commitment to their power can hardly be questioned. In the summer and autumn of 1942, Soviet people were inspired by something more than fear of the NKVD .... It was a patriotic struggle against a terrifying and hated enemy. Throughout 1942, the war became a war for the salvation of historical Russia, a national war against a terrifying, almost mystical enemy».
            1. Bakht Offline Bakht
              Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 14 July 2019 23: 41
              I do not know if the case described has occurred. But it is possible that it was

              A commonplace was the mention that the Germans had air superiority. This statement reached the Kremlin. Secretary of the Central Committee of the CPSU (b) G.M. Malenkov was sent to the airfield on the left bank of the Volga. The pilot officers were waiting for the award sheets, and their amazement was even greater when Malenkov called forth a short major with his hair combed back and addressed him with an unthinkable speech: “Major Stalin, the combat skill of your fighters is worthless. In the last battle, not a single German aircraft was shot down. What is it? Have you forgotten how to fight? How should we understand this? ” The commander of the 8th Air Army, General Khryukin, received a spell in all form. (Zhukov had to defend the military general.) But in the future, it was not the similar outfits that played the role, but the growing change of brave pilots and the arrival of new, beautiful aircraft models.

              I do not think that Malenkov accidentally chose this particular fighter aviation regiment. It was shown that no ranks and regalia will save anyone. ALL are equal before the Fatherland. There will be no exceptions.
            2. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
              Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 17 July 2019 01: 29
              Fear God, compare Jesus with Joseph. The Bible offers the concept of world order, an order for such a thing does not pull. Although order 227 is like a commandment:

              Die for your homeland today (righteously), otherwise you will be punished tomorrow.

              Anyway, I can’t understand, are you convinced that before the order of the Red Army, she fought badly, and after that she immediately began to show miracles of heroism?
              I agree that the order coincided with the internal mood of the citizens, as well as a giant stretching of the front, which Germany could not provide.
              This is a pointless argument, the effect of this order cannot be measured by any objective indicators, respectively - it cannot be proved useful or useless.
              1. Bakht Offline Bakht
                Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 17 July 2019 08: 47
                I do not compare. The main idea is that the word has material power. If it

                coincides with the internal mood of citizens.

                And the word of Joseph in those years meant as much as the word of Jesus. By the way, Jesus has the same commandment - do not sin today, because you will be punished tomorrow.
                Of course, the word (order) has no "objective indicators". But his strength and usefulness are noted by all front-line soldiers. And the enemy, by the way, too.
                The Red Army fought as best she could. And before the order, and after. The fact that the Germans lost the war is their own fault. To make such mistakes at the highest level is inexcusable. In the same way, they lost the First World War due to the stupidity of their High Command.
                1. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
                  Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 20 July 2019 01: 01
                  You are not from the sect of witnesses of St. Joseph?


                  For all front-line soldiers it is not necessary, you yourself cited the NKVD reports on the attitude to the order. But even in the Kharkov catastrophe, the consequence of which was this order, is also entirely the fault of the USSR Supreme Leadership. Stalin issued many orders, for example - for a crashed plane, the pilot was equated with a deserter, but this did not stop losing more than half of all losses of the Red Army aircraft in the Second World War in flight accidents.
                  1. Bakht Offline Bakht
                    Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 20 July 2019 08: 33
                    I thought the topic has exhausted itself. But still bring the facts correct.
                    "More than half of the losses" is a very bold statement. I don’t think you can confirm it with facts.
                    The order was not a consequence of the Kharkov operation, but a consequence of the defeat on the middle Don. Kharkov was in May. Middle Don in July. On July 6, Tymoshenko left for a spare command post, where there was no communication means. On July 8, Stalin had to order the marshal to return to the front command post and report the situation. Tymoshenko appeared on July 9. From Shtemenko's book "General Staff during the War".
                    I do not belong to any sect. I try to collect objective information. Without Stalin, war would have been lost. Although he made mistakes. I have never seen sinless people in my life.
                    I have cited excerpts from the NKVD reports for objectivity. There were much more positive feedback.
                    1. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
                      Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 21 July 2019 02: 15

                      Quote: Bakht
                      I thought the topic has exhausted itself. But still bring the facts correct.
                      "More than half of the losses" is a very bold statement. I don’t think you can confirm it with facts.

                      In the work "The classification of secrecy has been removed: the losses of the USSR Armed Forces in wars, hostilities and military conflicts" there is table No. 186. According to it, of the total losses of the Red Army Air Force 106,4 thousand, of which combat amounted to 46,1 thousand.
                      And there is the number of those executed - (I suspect that they were taken into account only by the sentences of the tribunals) 135 thousand, (for comparison, the United States shot 135 thousand times less, and 108,5 thousand people suffered losses on the western front).
                      And the defeat in the Don was the result of the Kharkov defeat. I did not understand, Stalin appointed the poor military commander Tymoshenko to command the Kharkov operation, left him to lead the South-Western Front until the defeat on the Middle Don, could not contact him, and then also appointed to command the Stalingrad Front. It seems that Stalin was poorly versed in people. And then of course, after so many military and personnel errors, for which Stalin was responsible, they issued order 227, in which the soldiers were told that they were dying badly.
                      Without Stalin, maybe there would have been no war, at least such. So many Soviet citizens perished during his reign ... A decent country could be populated. Errors of the pre-war policy of Stalin led to the fact that the USSR remained virtually alone with Germany. All responsibility lies with the leader, and the Kharkov catastrophe, and the defeat on the middle Don, and the loss of 27 million citizens in the Second World War, and the loss of about 10 million in peacetime. Cannot right, successful, wise, etc. the leader lose as many of his fellow citizens as Stalin lost. My IMHO - Stalin was one of the most disastrous leaders of the country.
                      1. Bakht Offline Bakht
                        Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 21 July 2019 08: 14
                        By the loss - did not know. Indeed, more than half of the losses are non-combat. Whether equated to desertion - I also have no data. I know that they really tried to leave the tank.
                        Tymoshenko really commanded after Don Stalingrad, and then he was sent to the North. And where was the other commanders? In 1941, Tymoshenko did not look so disastrous. Since the spring of 1943 it is nowhere to be seen. Khrushchev and Mehlis remained at their posts for the same failures. But Mehlis was at least honest:

                        The troops are not to blame. Guilty commanders.

                        Blaming Stalin that the war started is completely incorrect? In the same way, you can blame any major politician of that time. And Daladier, and Chamberlain, and Benes, and Beck. For some reason they forget about Hitler. The USSR was left face to face with Germany because of the policies of Western countries. First of all, Poland.
                        So the losses in the war against Stalin should not be blamed. Losses of 10 million in peacetime are probably the right figure. But exactly the same figure of 10 million falls on the 90s. The difference is that in the 30s an industrial power was founded, and in the 90s an industrial power was destroyed. So the most disastrous leader of the USSR must still be considered Gorbachev. And then Yeltsin, as the leader of the Russian Federation.
                        I do not see Stalin’s guilt in the fact that a war has occurred. I do not see his guilt in the fact that local leaders were not always geniuses.

                        We do not have Hindenburgs.

                        You write about the number of people executed. Yes, I know these numbers. And what other methods in the history of mankind were in relation to the retreating army? Was there less in the USA or England? So their existence was not in jeopardy. In Germany, 15 thousand troops were executed. But Germany lost the war. By the spring of 1945 they had deserted the shelves. True, on the Western Front, 3,5 million who left the front.
                        Are you talking about successful leaders? So we have "holy nineties" and "terrible thirties." And there - and there, the loss of 10 million people. With completely opposite results.
                      2. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
                        Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 23 July 2019 15: 13

                        Quote: Bakht
                        Whether equated to desertion - I also have no data.

                        Order No. 0299 ​​"On the procedure for awarding the flight personnel of the Red Army Air Force for good combat work."

                        IV. Measures to combat hidden desertion among individual pilots.
                        To the commanders and commissars of air divisions all cases of emergency landings with retracted landing gears and other flight accidents that incapacitate the materiel of aircraft are thoroughly investigated.
                        The culprits who landed with the landing gear retracted or committed other actions that incapacitate the materiel without valid reasons should be considered as deserters and brought to trial by the Military Tribunal.

                        And more:
                        Order of the NPO of the USSR of 9.09.1942 No. 0685

                        4. Fighter pilots evading combat with an air opponent, bring to justice and transfer to penal units - to the infantry.

                        It should be borne in mind that the accident rate in the Red Army Air Force was very high in peacetime. At a meeting on April 9, 1941, of the Council of People's Commissars of the USSR and the leadership of the People’s Commissariat of Defense, headed by Stalin, on the issues of overcoming accidents and strengthening discipline in aviation, the following is recorded in the protocol:

                        Every day, on average, 2-3 planes die ... in case of accidents and catastrophes, 600-900 planes, which is XNUMX-XNUMX planes per year ....

                        These are peacetime pilots who have undergone normal, peaceful training, and peacetime techniques, that is, better ones. When asked by Stalin about the reasons, said the head of the Main Directorate of the Air Force of the Red Army, Levers:

                        ... you make us fly on coffins!

                        For which he was shot without trial along with his wife.
                      3. Bakht Offline Bakht
                        Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 23 July 2019 16: 03
                        The same order was with tank troops.
                        I glanced through the accident data in the Air Force. It’s fluent, because I’ve never been interested in this issue, but to carefully study it, I need to shovel a lot of literature.
                        So, accident rate in the air forces of different countries according to American data ranged from 40 to 50%. The leader is the USSR - 55%. In Germany - 40%. I did not know that the accident rate is so high. The degree of punishment is, of course, excessive. According to Me109, Galland wrote that the plane is moody when taking off. For this reason, hundreds of cadets and even experienced pilots lost.
                      4. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
                        Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 24 July 2019 20: 49
                        Here we see a bunch of such orders. And it is not clear to me why it is precisely 227 that have been singled out among a number of such orders? Why the rest is not really to act, but this one suddenly took and changed the course of the war.
                      5. Bakht Offline Bakht
                        Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 24 July 2019 22: 01
                        I have already answered this question.
                        Order 227 alone could not change the course of hostilities. If he did not coincide with the thoughts of the MOST (overwhelming majority) of soldiers and officers at the front. For the first time, soldiers were told that the war was losing. It is completely lost. Nowhere to retreat.

                        That last span,
                        What if you leave,
                        That stepped backwards
                        The leg has nowhere to put.
                      6. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
                        Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 25 July 2019 12: 24
                        Okay, I get it. This is how Jesus told the cripple - get up and go, and a miracle happened, the cripple went. So here, Joseph said, stand or die and a miracle happened, the soldiers of the Red Army stopped retreating (almost).
                      7. Bakht Offline Bakht
                        Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 25 July 2019 13: 57
                        It was a miracle. Or almost a miracle.

                        ... Once people walked the hard way through the mountains. The sun was not visible during the day and the stars at night, the clouds clung to the peaks. There was one among the travelers who called himself a Guide and led them.

                        Travelers were exhausted and often fell, they had already eaten the last bread. And the Guide, in order to encourage, said: “Look, see the mountain? Behind her is the end of the road. ”

                        And the fallen ones took courage and rose. At that mountain, the Guide told them: “I was mistaken. The end of the path beyond the next mountain. " And they went to the next mountain. And the Guide said on top of it: “I lied to you so that the fallen ones will be encouraged. The end of the road is just beyond the next mountain. ”

                        And the travelers for a long time forgave him a lie, because it helped them to go. But finally, the severity of disappointment became unbearable. And even the most powerful despair and lay down on the ground. Then the Guide said: “You do not believe that the end of the path is near, because I have deceived you many times. But now I’m not lying, and that you believe me, I’m ready to take my life. ” And he went to the edge of the abyss to rush into it.

                        But no one now found the strength in himself to rise.

                        “People,” the Explorer said then. - Excuse me. I lied to you again. The end of the journey is still very far. Behind the farthest peak there is not even half the way. "

                        And then one of the companions rose from the earth and said: “Lead. I will go". And another got up and said: "I will go too." And all the strong-willed stood up, deciding to die better along the way. And the weak in spirit remained and thus facilitated the journey in a strong spirit, because they did not tear their souls with words of doubt and despair.

                        But the Conductor, wandering ahead, could not understand why the lie about the close end of the path, the lie that he was truly ready to confirm with his death, did not make people cheer up. And the truth about the endlessly far end of the road lifted people from the side of the road.

                        And they follow him, and he does not hear tears and groans, as he had heard before. And even they sang a song, finding strength and firmness of spirit for it. And the Conductor sang with them: "The one who walks will master the road, although there is no end to the roads ..."
                      8. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
                        Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 26 July 2019 02: 12
                        But say - not a witness to Joseph. Well, theological questions are not very interesting to me.
          2. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
            Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 23 July 2019 21: 22

            Quote: Bakht
            Blaming Stalin that the war started is completely incorrect? In the same way, you can blame any major politician of that time. And Daladier, and Chamberlain, and Benes, and Beck. For some reason they forget about Hitler.

            Yes, they are all to blame (in the sense of Daladier, and Chamberlain, and Benes, and Beck, etc.), in their justification we can only say that they did not want to fight at all, but this is a weak excuse. Unlike the Stalinist USSR, whose plans were far-reaching.

            The front of the second imperialist war is expanding. One nation after another is drawn into it. Mankind is going to great battles that will unleash a world revolution ... The end of this second war will be marked by the final rout of the old, capitalist world, when between the two millstones - the Soviet Union, menacingly rising to its full gigantic height, and the invincible wall of revolutionary democracy that has risen to its aid, - the remains of the capitalist system will be turned to dust and dust

            The Non-Aggression Pact helps Germany to some extent.

            Quote: Bakht
            The USSR was left face to face with Germany because of the policies of Western countries. First of all, Poland.

            Ahhhh ... Poland is to blame for the fact that the USSR was left almost face to face with Germany? Is that Poland, against which Germany and the USSR fought jointly in September 39th? How is this? The fact that Germany refused to joint aggression against the USSR?

            And who to blame for such a monstrous loss? The leader is responsible for everything. What is the state for? Citizens renounce part of their rights in favor of the state, with the hope that it will protect their interests, their lives. In this case, the state very poorly performed its duties to protect its citizens.

            The losses in the 90s are mainly demographic (unborn children) (by the way, the peak fell on Putin), the losses of the 31st and 46th years, these are real, living people who lost their lives through a vein of illiterate leadership. The losses of the 37th year are real people shot at the whim of the country's leader. Losses of the nineties are a consequence of the collapse of the country, its vices.

            Germany in the year 39 was still weak. The war with Poland became dear to her, they ran out of bombs. The nightmare of the German General Staff, the war on two fronts. One threat of such a war could prevent WWII. Stalin entered the war in unfavorable conditions for the USSR, flirting with Hitler and weaving intrigues against the West.

            That is, you think that in Germany they shot a little and therefore they lost? I believe that for some reason ordinary soldiers paid for the failures of the leadership, including the highest.
          3. Bakht Offline Bakht
            Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 23 July 2019 23: 44
            You have written a lot and there’s simply not enough patience and nerves to answer everything.
            Poland is to blame for the beginning of World War II as well as others. But a lot more. As Yu. Beck said:

            It was we who foiled the Eastern Pact.

            And he said this to Ribbentrop in Berlin in January 1939. It was Poland that foiled the aid of Czechoslovakia. It was Poland that foiled the negotiations in August 1939.
            Do you consider the victory of the USSR in the war a failure? Failure was in France, England, and other European countries. The USSR won the war. Yes, huge losses. But the rest generally gave up. With the superiority of forces.
            The fact that Germany was weak in 1939 is an afterthought. At that time, no one knew.
            You confuse cause and effect. Stalin could not stop the war in 1939. And in August 1939, he could not agree to any agreements with England and France. If he had come to an agreement with England and France, he would have been left face to face with Germany in the most unfavorable conditions. I was tired of repeating that the attack on Poland had ripened at Hitler in the spring of 1939, plans were drawn up by the summer, and the concentration of forces began at that time. Regardless of the position of the USSR.
          4. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
            Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 24 July 2019 21: 04
            Then everyone was good, who is arguing, including Poland, but making it the main culprit for the troubles of the USSR is too much. The pact gave tangible benefits to Germany and minimal benefits to the USSR, which he still could not use. As they say, this is worse than betrayal, this is a mistake.
            Where I wrote that victory is a failure. I believe the failure of the Soviet leadership is the 41st year and what preceded it.
          5. Bakht Offline Bakht
            Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 24 July 2019 21: 41
            The pact gave huge benefits to the USSR. Simple thing. Is this your phrase?

            The nightmare of the German General Staff, the war on two fronts.

            Tell me - is this a nightmare of only the German General Staff? In August 1939, the USSR fought a war in the Far East. The pact averted war in the West. Is it a win? Consider at least this point. The pact eliminated the war on the two fronts for the USSR.
            1941 is not a failure. This is a defeat in the Border Battle. The political leadership is to blame? I can give another hint. UK archives are not subject to declassification. They were classified for 50 years from 1939 to 1989. In 1989, secrecy was extended for another 50 years. Wait now for the year 2039. And someone is chatting about the closed archives of the USSR ...
            In Poland, this is a separate issue. Who foiled Czechoslovakia’s help? It is Poland. And in April 1939, the USSR offered Poland assistance in solving the Danzig problem. Grzhibovsky (Polish Ambassador to Moscow) personal thanks. He managed to infuriate even Litvinov.
          6. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
            Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 25 July 2019 19: 28
            No, not only for the German, this is a nightmare for the Japanese General Staff, which was preparing for the war with the USA. The battles on Khalkhin Gol are not all considered a war, very limited forces were attracted from both sides. Why didn't the Japanese attack in the 41st? What the Japanese forgot in Siberia and the Far East of the USSR, there was practically nothing there, and they needed vital resources, especially oil. And the German attack on the USSR in 1939 was impossible, with or without a pact.
            And what is there in these archives? Do you think we will learn something fundamentally new?
            It is difficult to expect trust from the Poles when citizens in the Soviet Union were just persecuted in the 37th and 38th only because they were of Polish nationality.
          7. Bakht Offline Bakht
            Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 25 July 2019 19: 41
            It was not about trust, but about the survival of the Polish state. The Japanese have forgotten a lot of things in the Far East. And this is not about the 41st, but about the 39th. What exactly did the Japanese forget in Mongolia - the question does not arise?
            For almost 5 years, Poland torpedoed the creation of collective security in Europe. I have a feeling that you do not understand what I'm talking about.
            Autumn of 1938. The USSR could not help Czechoslovakia because of the position of Poland. Look at the documents why Czechoslovakia went to the ultimatum. Who helped her, and who drowned.
            Spring of 1939. There is a Danzig problem. Poland rejects the help of the USSR.
            August 1939 Dumenko sends captain Boffre to Warsaw. Answer Rydz-Smigly:

            Poland does not want and under no circumstances will accept the help of the USSR.

            And added:

            In two weeks the Polish cavalry will be in Berlin.

            According to your answer, I feel sorry for the poor Poles. The ones that killed, according to some sources, 80 thousand Russian prisoners of war in the 20s. And that all 19 years of its existence had territorial claims and seized the territories of ALL neighbors without exception - Germany, Lithuania, USSR, Czech Republic. And now they pretend to be innocent victims. Poland is as much to blame for the outbreak of World War II as others. Moreover, if Germany is an outright aggressor, then Poland is the "hyena of Europe".
          8. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
            Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 26 July 2019 00: 34
            Poland did not trust Stalin precisely in the matter of the survival of the state and, judging by the fate of the Baltic states, did not trust it correctly. And in general, do you think it normal to tear Poland in half with Hitler because it was unyielding in the negotiations against Germany?
            And what did Japan do in Mongolia? Enlighten.

            Quote: Bakht
            In two weeks the Polish cavalry will be in Berlin.

            Just a little blood on foreign territory.

            Quote: Bakht
            According to your answer, I was directly sorry for the poor Poles.

            I do not understand your sarcasm. Do you think it is right that on the 37th year Soviet citizens of Polish nationality were executed and imprisoned? For what? For the fact that prisoners were mistreated in Poland in the early twenties (then both sides were good)? Are you a supporter of collective responsibility?

            What did the "jackal of Europe" do that the Stalinist USSR did not do?
        3. Bakht Offline Bakht
          Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 25 July 2019 19: 47
          Let's return to the question of the "second front". For the USSR, it was a war in the Far East. It began in May and ended in September. And it ended not least because of the signing of the Moscow Treaty with Germany. So the benefits are obvious. The threat of a war on two fronts for the USSR was eliminated.
        4. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
          Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 26 July 2019 02: 11
          What is the second front? What do you come up with? In your opinion, it turns out that the Soviet leadership was slowing down a lot, the hostilities were actually over, and it only cared about preventing a war on two fronts. Germany had no plans, no opportunity to wage war with the USSR in the 39th year (especially in Italy). If Japan made any plans for the Soviet Far East, it is very distant. They needed resources here and now, and the Far East could not provide them. So the pact prevented the threat of war on two fronts, which was not there anyway.
        5. Bakht Offline Bakht
          Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 26 July 2019 07: 16
          An old myth that the USSR attacked Poland. Poland was gone. On September 17, Ambassador Grzhibovsky refused to accept a note from Potemkin. To Potemkin’s words that the ambassador is OBLIGED to bring the text of the note to his government, Grzhibovsky admitted that he was not able to, as he did not know where the Polish government was. The fact that the USSR did not attack Poland was also recognized by the British government at its meeting on September 17. According to the guarantees of Poland, England had to declare war on the USSR, just as she declared war on Germany. But for some reason, in 1939, Chamberlain knew the situation better than you are now trying to imagine. Neither France nor England declared war on the USSR. Violated your obligations or knew the real situation?
          Regarding trust or grievances. The USSR had a lot of complaints against Poland. All the 20s and 30s from the territory of Poland were provocations and attacks by various gangs. But Moscow wanted to save Poland. If the Poles decided to lie under Hitler, this is their problem.
          About the Far East. Confusing the chronology. The fights were in full swing there. The fighting began in May, ended in September. The main operation began on August 20. At the time of the signing of the Moscow Treaty fights were on. Zhukov used all the reserves. After the defeat, Japan began to pull together troops with the goal of revenge. Fights in the air continued. What Japan wanted in Moscow could not know. Japan fought in China and expanded its expansion to the north. The issue of the southern direction arose only in 1940 after the fall of France.
        6. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
          Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 28 July 2019 01: 44
          In 1933, the USSR signed the "London Convention", as I understand it - he was its initiator.

          Article I

          Each of the High Contracting Parties undertakes to be guided in its relations with each of the others, starting from the date of entry into force of this Convention, the definition of aggression, as it was explained in the report of the Security Committee of May 24, 1933 (report of the Politis) at the Conference on Reduction and arms limitation, a report made as a result of a proposal made by the Soviet delegation.

          Article II

          In accordance with this, it will be recognized as an attacker in an international conflict, without prejudice to the agreement between the parties to the conflict, the State that first performs one of the following actions:

          1. Declaration of war on another State;

          2. The invasion of their armed forces, at least without declaring war, on the territory of another State;

          3. An attack by their own land, sea or air forces, at least without declaring war, on the territory, on ships or aircraft of another State;

          4. Sea blockade of the coast or ports of another State;

          5. Support provided to armed gangs, which, having been formed on its territory, will invade the territory of another State, or refusal, despite the requirement of the invaded State, to take, on its own territory, all measures depending on it to deprive the gangs of any kind help or patronage.

          Article III

          No consideration of a political, military, economic or other order can serve as an excuse or excuse for the aggression provided for in Article II (see the Appendix for an example)

          That is, it was, of course, aggression without any buts.
          How do you determine whether Poland was or was not at that time?
          If you take your postulates that the Polish ambassador could not contact his leadership (and this is not entirely true), then the USSR was not there since June 29, 1941, since Stalin was depressed and no one could contact him.

          The British government did not recognize the non-aggression of the USSR against Poland, since England gave guarantees in case of an attack only by Germany (see the secret protocol of the Anglo-Polish military alliance).

          I don’t understand, do you think it is normal that Soviet citizens of Polish nationality were subjected to extrajudicial persecution (including executions), since the Soviet leadership had a lot of complaints against the state of Poland?

          Regarding the fighting on the Khalkhin-Gol River. If you think this is a full-scale war, please explain to me why the hostilities were limited only to the vicinity of this river (the borders of Mongolia and Manzhou) and did not extend to the rather long border of the USSR and Manzhou? Yes, Japan fought with China, and it is not clear why it should open a second front with the USSR. What sane goals can be pursued in the war with the USSR?
        7. Bakht Offline Bakht
          Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 28 July 2019 08: 06
          The secret protocol is secret and that no one knew about it. Poland asked to declare war on the USSR, but England refused.
          Prostration of Stalin is a long debunked myth.
          The ambassador could not contact the Government because of the Government’s flight from Warsaw. Without any means of communication. Even the Rydz-Smigly commander had no contact with the troops. I forgot the walkie-talkie. The president escaped from the capital on the very first day of the war. On September 17, the Polish government crosses the Romanian border. And it was placed in an internment camp. Moreover, the camp itself was prepared in advance.
          The events at Khalkhin Gol are sometimes called conflict. The death toll from the Soviet side is from 10 to 20 thousand people (various sources). But sometimes called war. The fighting continued until early September. Stopped due to the signing of the Moscow Treaty. You have one-sided questions. Japan actually won the war in China. Why does she need a second front - you can ask Germany. Why did she need a second front in 41? Yes, because she believed that the front is only one. Like Japan in the 39th.
          The funniest thing in this story is that when the Polish ambassador in England demanded to declare war on the USSR, he declared that Poland itself would not declare war on the USSR. Poland officially declared war on the USSR only in December.

          On December 18, the government issued a declaration (the Angers Declaration), which formulated the main goals of the emigration government. The declaration qualified Hitler Germany as the main enemy of Poland, confirmed the state of war with the USSR (which, according to the declaration, was de facto, but de iure the war did not start).

          International treaties and declarations are all good. But how were they carried out then and are being carried out now? No way.
          The facts are as follows. There was no Polish government. There was a war in the East. In the West, German troops reached Minsk (60 km border). I'll tell you more. The annexation of Poland and the Baltics was vital. Moscow probably remembered the words of Admiral Drax that these countries would become "German provinces."
          Real politics is very different from idealized ideas. I would look for the cause of these or those events of 1939 in the events of July 1914. I think Stalin knew very well what led to the fall of the Russian Empire. And did not want to repeat this experience.
        8. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
          Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 30 July 2019 16: 54
          Quote: Bakht
          The secret protocol is secret and that no one knew about it.

          It is not clear what you wanted to say. Did the Poles not know about the secret protocol to the treaty they concluded?

          Quote: Bakht
          Poland asked to declare war on the USSR, but England refused.

          You contradict yourself. If Poland no longer existed, how could she ask to declare war on the USSR?

          Quote: Bakht
          Prostration of Stalin is a long debunked myth.

          And what did Stalin do on June 29 and 30? Took a vacation? We get - there is no connection with the leader of the country, communication with the troops is lost, what - the USSR ceased to exist?
          If the commander of Rydz-Smigly had no connection, how did he give the order not to fight the Soviets? How did Ignacy Moscitsky address the people?
          Soviet institutions partially left Moscow in the 41st year; how is this different?
          Do you know that the Polish government crosses the border in the evening, and the invasion was in the morning?
          And why did the USSR recognize the Polish government in exile and conclude an agreement with it?
          In any case, these are all ridiculous excuses; the USSR divided Poland together with Germany, even before September 1, and planned an invasion also before September 1.

          You can not come up with sane goals for the invasion of Japan in the USSR? Summer of the 41st year, the USSR suffers defeat after defeat. All resources of the country of the Soviets are directed to the front with Germany. No pact is valid anymore. What stops Japan from attacking the USSR? How then did the pact help in the Far East of the USSR in the 39th year?
          The losses of the Red Army in the Polish campaign are more than a thousand, but for you this is not a war, but with Japan, 10 thousand is a war. How long does your war begin?

          Quote: Bakht
          International treaties and declarations are all good. But how were they carried out then and are being carried out now? No way.

          Again, you contradict yourself. What is the point then in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?

          Quote: Bakht
          The facts are as follows. There was no Polish government. There was a war in the East. In the West, German troops went to Minsk (border 60 km).

          We definitely expect to finally defeat the Polish army in a few weeks. Then we will keep under military control the territory that was defined in Moscow as a sphere of German interests. Naturally, however, we will be forced, for military reasons, to continue military operations against those Polish armed forces that would be at that moment on Polish territory belonging to the sphere of Russian interests.
          Please immediately discuss this with Molotov and find out if the Soviet Union does not consider it desirable that the Russian armed forces act at the appropriate moment against the Polish armed forces in the area of ​​Russian interests and, for their part, occupy this territory. In our opinion, this would not only be a relief for us, but would also be consistent with the spirit of the Moscow agreements and Soviet interests ...

          I ask you to immediately convey to Mr. Molotov the following:
          1. The destruction of the Polish army, as follows from the review of the martial law of September 14, which has already been transferred to you, is quickly being completed. We expect to occupy Warsaw in the next few days.
          2. We have already stated to the Soviet government that we consider ourselves bound by delimited spheres of influence agreed upon in Moscow and set apart from purely military events, which, of course, also extends to the future.
          3. From the message made to you by Molotov on September 14, we concluded that the Soviet government was militarily prepared and that it intended to begin its operations now. We welcome this. The Soviet government, therefore, will free us from the need to destroy the remnants of the Polish army, pursuing them up to the Russian border. In addition, if the Russian intervention is not launched, the question will inevitably arise whether a political vacuum will be created in the region lying east of the German zone of influence. Since we, for our part, do not intend to take any political or administrative actions in these areas that are separate from the necessary military operations, without such intervention by the Soviet Union, conditions may arise for the formation of new states.


          September 20, 1939 - 2 hours. 23 min

          Top secret! Molotov told me today that the Soviet government believes that now, for him, as well as for the German government, the moment has ripened for a final determination of the structure of Polish territories. In this regard, Molotov made it clear that the original intention that was hatched by the Soviet government and personally by Stalin - to allow the existence of the remainder of Poland - now gave way to the intention to divide Poland along the Pissa: Narew - Wisla - San. The Soviet government wants to immediately begin negotiations on this issue and hold them in Moscow, since such negotiations on the Soviet side are required to be carried out by persons vested with supreme authority who are unable to leave the Soviet Union. I ask for telegraph instructions.

          Quote: Bakht
          The accession of Poland and the Baltic was vital.

          Yes, and then they say that only Russophobes live there, why did they appear there?

          Quote: Bakht
          I would look for the cause of these or those events of 1939 in the events of July 1914. I think Stalin knew very well what led to the fall of the Russian Empire. And did not want to repeat this experience.

          What is the impossibility of a complete, final victory of socialism in one country without the victory of the revolution in other countries? This is the impossibility of a full guarantee against intervention, and therefore the restoration of the bourgeois order, without the victory of the revolution, at least in a number of countries. Denial of this indisputable position is a departure from internationalism, a departure from Leninism.

          In my opinion, this determined the pre-war policy of the USSR. And Stalin achieved his goal, created a socialist environment, but the price ... Yes, and the Soviet Union did not particularly help.
        9. Bakht Offline Bakht
          Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 30 July 2019 17: 45
          Too many questions.
          The Polish ambassador to the UK may not have known about the secret protocol. If it was Germany that was indicated there, then why did he demand to declare war on the USSR? When I write "Poland" it is, of course, an abbreviation. The Polish ambassador to Great Britain demanded.
          The Germans demanded that the USSR should enter Poland, but the offensive began only on September 17 and under the pretext of "protecting the Slavs." What caused the rejection of the German Foreign Ministry. Ribbentrop just declared that Stalin did not fulfill the terms of the Pact.
          You do not take into account the events of that time. Explain to me why France did not help Poland? She had every reason and every opportunity to carry out an offensive. I think Stalin was waiting. Had England and France helped Poland, the USSR would not have come forward. This is all from the realm of speculation. The reality is that England and France did not fulfill their obligations. An exact copy of the situation in July 1914. Then the British almost threw the French.

          I think we need to delete the word honor from the English language.

          Regarding the number of victims, on September 30, 1938, the Czechs lost a hundred people during the Polish invasion. Is this not a war?
          There is information about the connection. Rydz Smigly communicated with the troops through an intermediate flotilla station on the Bug.
          Stalin was not in prostration on either the 29th or the 30th of June. I said this is a debunked myth. On June 29, at 14:00, Stalin and Molotov visited the People’s Commissariat of Defense. There was an unpleasant scene. According to various sources, it is described differently. Then he went to the country. On June 30, he was visited by Molotov, Beria, and the company. In the afternoon of June 30, Stalin signed a decree establishing the GKO. By 18:00 p.m. Stalin called the People’s Commissariat and demanded that Pavlov be recalled from the front and summoned to Moscow.
          Neither at the end of June nor in October did the People's Commissariat of Defense and the General Headquarters lose contact with the troops.
          Rydz Smigly forgot codes in Warsaw and lost command and control.
        10. Bakht Offline Bakht
          Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 30 July 2019 17: 55
          I asked - without slogans. This principle was rejected by Stalin in the mid-30s. Stalin built socialism in one country.
          About the Far East. The northern direction for Japan was the main one. Hence the pumping of the Kwantung Army. But in the summer of 1940, the situation changed. And in July 1941, Roosevelt provided invaluable support to the USSR. And Japan changed direction. It was recognized as the most important southern direction. For the simple reason that the Far East itself had to fall into the hands of samurai. Why then waste the effort? The fall of the USSR by the fall of 1941 seemed inevitable. And no one was going to wage war in Siberia in winter. And then the situation changed.
          You do not take into account all the policy factors of the time. The situation changed almost daily. Planned and conducted work to create completely unimaginable unions. Poland + Germany against the USSR. Germany + Great Britain against Poland and the USSR. USSR + Germany vs Poland. France + Great Britain against the USSR (By the way, it almost started in the spring of 1940). Any directions in all capitals were felt.
        11. Bakht Offline Bakht
          Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 30 July 2019 18: 07
          You can not come up with sane goals for the invasion of Japan in the USSR? Summer of the 41st year, the USSR suffers defeat after defeat. All resources of the country of the Soviets are directed to the front with Germany. No pact is valid anymore. What stops Japan from attacking the USSR?


          Kantokuen Plan - a plan developed in 1941 for Japan’s attack on the USSR, linked to the Barbarossa plan in time. After the decisive successes achieved by the Barbarossa plan of the German army, it envisaged the defeat of the Soviet armed forces in the Far East of the USSR for a month and a half in August - October 1941 and the occupation of the Soviet Far East and Siberia. By the beginning of August 1941, to implement this plan, a group of Japanese troops of 850 thousand people was concentrated in Manchuria and Korea. The declaration of war of the USSR was scheduled for August 10, 1941, after the capture of Moscow by the German army, outlined according to the Barbarossa plan.
    2. Bakht Offline Bakht
      Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 28 July 2019 08: 16
      This is not the most correct interpretation of events, but the fact that Khalkhin-Gol was a war is definitely
    3. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
      Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 30 July 2019 17: 02
      Quote: Bakht
      This is not the most correct interpretation of events, but the fact that Khalkhin-Gol was a war is quite certain.

      Zhukov did not command near Stalingrad.

      In this situation, the Soviet Union would remain aloof and become the arbiter of the fate of Europe after the capitalists had exhausted their forces. The Nazi - Soviet pact was Stalin's attempt to achieve the optimal result.

      I agree with this.
      By the way, I would like to hear from you all the same, do you consider it normal that citizens of the USSR of Polish nationality were subjected to extrajudicial persecution (including executions), since the Soviet leadership had "a lot of claims" against the state of Poland?
    4. Bakht Offline Bakht
      Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 30 July 2019 17: 28
      As well - require an answer to the question to which the answer is known. No, I don’t think so. I guess where you are leading, but I don’t think that there were mass repressions.
      Do not confuse God's gift with fried eggs. The USSR had a lot of complaints against Poland and therefore was not obligated to help it at all. That is exactly what I had in mind. Repressions why you pulled - I do not know.
      Poland planned a war against the USSR until the spring of 1939. Together with Germany. Poland together with Germany attacked Czechoslovakia. By the way, I specifically do not focus attention (on your own link) of the definition of war. According to her (link), Poland began the war on September 30, 1938 with an attack on Czechoslovakia. There were up to a hundred dead.
      You are fixated on the fault of the USSR. This is not true. The Polish state collapsed by September 17. There was no government, no president. On September 17, the Polish government sat in an internment camp in Romania. Therefore, the ambassador could not contact them.
      The issue of the Moscow Treaty is fully in line with the politics of that time. Any state. Secret protocols and additions were in all contracts. A non-aggression pact with Germany was concluded by all countries. The division of the sphere of influence was practiced by all countries of that time. Even democratic England and the USA.
      I do not see the guilt of the USSR in taking advantage of the situation. It would be more difficult for me to defend the position of the USSR in relation to the Baltic countries. But the Poles so flooded the air with their suffering that no one remembers this topic.
  11. Bakht Offline Bakht
    Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 23 July 2019 23: 46
    And finally stop quoting slogans. This has nothing to do with real state policy. The policy of the USSR towards Germany underwent enormous changes in the 20s, late 20s, and in the early, mid, and late 30s. The policies of all countries have been reversed. And France, and England, and the USSR too. And Germany changed politics very sharply. Everything depended on the specific situation, and not on what is written in the program documents.
  12. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
    Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 24 July 2019 21: 30
    What are the slogans? One is an article by the deputy commissioner of the NKID, the second is a statement by Joseph Stalin about the pact.
  13. Bakht Offline Bakht
    Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 24 July 2019 21: 54
    From them you drew conclusions about the "far-reaching plans of the USSR."
    The USSR tried to avoid war. By any means. The pact served these purposes. Yes, he ensured the freedom of hands of Germany. So what? He also ensured the safety of the USSR at that time. And he allowed (importantly) to return to the USSR the lost territories of the Russian Empire. Stalin was the last truly Russian Tsar in Moscow. I have repeated this many times and am repeating it now. All that he did was to the benefit of the USSR. And to the Russian people. Why is now Stalin's rating higher than that of any politician? Have people forgotten the repression? Not. They just see that without Stalin they are being destroyed.
    Who is without mistakes? Of course, he also had mistakes. But you always have to compare. In fact, he gained full power in the early 30s. Let's assume that he was in power for 20 years. He rebuilt thousands (not an exaggeration) factories, made an industrial country from an agrarian country. I simply do not want to compare the current "rulers" with 20 years.
    As V. Stalin said:

    You do not stand a nail with his little finger.

    I’m all right ... I, like many others, read about the cult of personality and also considered Stalin a villain. In old age wiser. I am a Stalinist by conviction. But my beliefs are supported by facts and documents.
    A simple task. USSR of the late 20s. The country is under sanctions that are not much more powerful than today's ones. Purely agricultural country. Who will make the second world economy out of it? Chatting - not tossing bags.
  14. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
    Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 26 July 2019 01: 39
    These quotes are not the only ones I can offer.
    I say, the pact secured peace for two years, but even without the pact Germany could not attack the USSR for these two years.

    Quote: Bakht
    All that he did was to the benefit of the USSR. And to the Russian people.

    I can’t imagine how much the victims of hunger benefit during the repressions and the Great Patriotic War. This is a colossal figure. You can populate a country like Ukraine. This king was a tyrant, reckoning with nothing in achieving his goal, including the lives of his subjects. He was terribly ineffective. The country he created did not exist even 40 years after his death.
    I was in Spain, there in many cafes I saw a portrait of Franco. Due to the fact that he is still popular among the Spaniards, should we be nice to this fascist?

    Quote: Bakht
    They just see that without Stalin they are being destroyed.

    Who is destroying whom now? The Russians have never lived in history so well (and for a long time), as now. Under Stalin, people lived starving or even starving. For all his rule, the standard of living never reached 1914. Now they do not carry out mass executions, do not evict peoples, do not carry out industrialization at the cost of millions of lives.

    What are the sanctions? What do you know about industrialization? Without Western technology, equipment and specialists, I would have looked at this industrialization.
  15. Bakht Offline Bakht
    Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 23 July 2019 23: 52
    Find who owns these quotes?

    The outstanding personality of our time - Adolf Hitler ... is among those great leaders of mankind who rarely appear in history.

    Economic circles in each individual Western European country and the New World welcome Hitlerism.

    It is impossible to give a fair assessment of any person in public life that has reached the unusual dimensions of Hitler’s personality before we don’t have all the life work of this person ... We can’t say whether Hitler will be the person who will once again unleash the world war in which civilization will irreversibly step back, or it will go down in history as a person who restored the honor and peacefulness of a great German nation and introduced it into the front ranks of a European family of nations strong, cheerful, ready to help others.
  • Bakht Offline Bakht
    Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 14 July 2019 15: 31
    Discussing topics related to the Great Patriotic War, we poorly imagine the situation and the mood of the people of that time. The flow of volunteers was massive. People went to defend their homeland. Sincerely walked. No commissioner was needed. Of course, people are not all the same. There was talk about giving up. But there were few of them. Negligible. The USSR in the late 30s was no longer the country that it was in the 20s. The situation was completely different. As the veterans said -

    We have never lived so well as before the war.

    Several quotes from different books.

    Guderian "Memories of a Soldier."

    The mood prevailing among the Russian population could, by the way, be judged by the statements of one old tsarist general with whom I had to talk in Orel in those days. He said: “If you had come 20 years ago, we would have welcomed you with great enthusiasm. Now it's too late. We just came to life again now, and you came and threw us 20 years ago, so we have to start all over again. Now we are fighting for Russia, and in this we are all united. ”

    V. Utkin "The Second World War."
    The English historian quotes the words from a letter sent to him from Russia:

    Even those of us who knew about the vices of our government ... who despised the hypocrisy of politics, we felt that we should fight. Because every Russian who survived the revolution and the thirties felt a slight breeze of hope, for the first time in the history of our people. We felt like a sprout breaking through centuries of rocky soil. It seemed to us that very little was left before the open sky. We knew that we would certainly perish. But our children will receive two gifts: a country free from the conqueror, and a time in which ideals will arise.

    And in addition to be objective. Special departments recorded the growth of “anti-Soviet, defeatist and traitorous statements” by military personnel:

    The commander of the 214th artillery regiment 38 SD, Colonel Gurylev, among a number of commanders, said:

    ... It is necessary to tear off the insignia on departure so as not to be shot. In this war you will perish for nothing. Where is our aircraft? The newspapers write about our aviation - all this is nonsense. German aviation is good, but we have coffins. I have witnessed several times, as soon as our planes rise, they are immediately knocked down and they burn ...

    And further:

    ... Peace with Germany will soon be concluded, for there is no sense fighting it, and there’s nothing to fight with, under great noise we were preparing for the spring offensive, and when we touched the enemy, he defeated us. The Germans have technology, and we have even more blood ...

    Red Army 1059 SP Pilipchuk in the presence of a number of Red Army men said:

    ... It is evident during the war that the Red Army will not defeat the German army and that the German from Ukraine will not go anywhere. A happy one who has remained behind the Germans' rear lives happily ever after and works at home ...

    The Red Army 349 SD Makagonov the Red Army men of his unit said:

    ... If everyone turned their weapons against the commissars and commanders, then in ten minutes the war would have ended and the individual farm would have been restored again, and there would have been plenty of food ...

    The commander of 855 joint ventures, 278 SD major Fedorov among the command staff of the regiment said that

    Tymoshenko is a bad warrior and he is ruining the army.

    The Chief of Staff of the Artillery 76 SD Captain Svechkin in an interview with the staff said:

    ... They betrayed us. Five armies threw the Germans to eat. Someone is being served before Hitler. The front is open and the situation is hopeless ...
  • Bakht Offline Bakht
    Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 15 July 2019 09: 04
    As always - the topic has exhausted itself, but new branches have appeared. I have to explain about Finland.
    Modern "discoverers" have no idea that real life is slightly different from computer games. For some reason, they believe that in life, as in a computer, pressing a button immediately gets the desired result.
    In March 1917, the Provisional Government reinstated the act of government in Finland. The Swedish Act, by the way. And recognized the autonomy of Finland. In accordance with this act, Parliament was immediately formed in Finland, which the Provisional Government recognized. The parliament immediately, referring to the same act (monarchical form of government) stated that since there is no monarch in Russia, in July 1917 he decided on the INDEPENDENCE of Finland. The Provisional Government did not recognize this decision, but who was already interested in it? Parliament has given the task of preparing the Constitution of INDEPENDENT Finland. If someone thinks that the Constitution is written in two days, let him try it. In November 1917, the Constitution was submitted to Parliament and adopted on December 4 by a majority vote.
    SNK, due to the lack of levers of influence (special thanks to the Provisional Government for the collapse of the army and navy) had to recognize this act. But immediately start preparing for the coup. In January 1918, the Civil War of the "Reds" against the "Whites" began in Finland. Guess at once what the Reds demanded? Mannerheim was able to quickly (by the spring of 1918) defeat the Red detachments (Petersburg could not help), and Finland became independent. So the conclusion. Having received autonomy in March 1917, Finland immediately set out to secede from Russia. For various reasons, the process took about 1 year. Fast enough for the formation of a state.
    Now prove to me that autonomy does not lead to independence.

    PS A separate note to opponents. I have been more or less actively involved in the site for a year. Maybe a little more. The pattern is quite obvious. Those participants who identify themselves with the liberal wing are true liberals. In the literal sense of the word. They are free from the concepts of "culture", "respect for the interlocutor." Insults are carried constantly. I may or may not respect my opponent. But I never stoop to insult my opponent. And further. It's completely incomprehensible to me where the one-day accounts come from on the site. So scary to write under your own name?
    I will try to restrain myself. One-day accounts are not worthy of my attention. There will be no answers.