"The idea of ​​betrayal never left ...": 22 June 1941 in three versions

On every anniversary of the greatest, perhaps, tragedy in the history of our Fatherland - the treacherous attack of Nazi Germany and its many allies, heated debate erupts with renewed vigor over the causes of the terrible losses and defeats that our army and our country suffered literally in the very first days this war. It should be noted that their interpretation undergoes more and more serious changes over the years - from the explanation of the June collapse as a “fateful combination of circumstances” and “the suddenness of an enemy strike” in the Soviet years to attempts to attribute all the blame for what happened personally to Stalin and other leaders of the USSR for “perestroika” time. Perhaps the time has come to voice another version, which has already been put forward, but only “in an undertone,” as not a very likely assumption. Yes, it may well seem shocking to some, but it is this version that makes it possible to explain most logically and reasonably most of the events of that fateful day.




As a matter of fact, the idea that no “accidents" or even miscalculations in the leadership of the army and criminal negligence of a certain number of its highest ranks, but their conscious betrayal, treason, led to bitter losses and a crushing defeat of the first days, weeks, months of the Great Patriotic War Homeland, already voiced, and more than once. Therefore, in no way trying to ascribe the laurels of the discoverer to myself, I’ll try to simply put the maximum number of fragments of the “mosaic” known to us into a single whole and bring as much evidence as possible in favor of this particular hypothesis. Believe it or not is everyone's personal business.

June 22 in three versions


And we will start, perhaps, with the fact that we recognize: to talk about the first day of the war, as the moment when events developed perfectly (or even approximately) equally throughout the entire Soviet border, attacked by the Nazis and their satellites, from the Barents Sea to the Black Sea would be completely incorrect. And, above all, because on June 22, it turned out completely differently for the ground forces of the Red Army, the Soviet Navy and the border troops, which were part of the NKVD. It would seem, if you believe in the miserable tales that “before the war, Stalin frightened everyone so that they were even afraid to look sideways”, then the very first strike of the Wehrmacht would have to overturn and scatter everyone who stood in defense of our Motherland. There it was!

The state border of the USSR was guarded by more than 600 border posts. For their suppression and destruction plan "Barbarossa" allotted from 20 to 40 minutes. Horseradish all over the Aryan face! Of the 485 attacked in the first minutes and hours of the war, not one of the outposts left without an order! The shortest time - up to a day, 257 of them lasted. In 45 places, the heroes in green caps fought for more than two months. The frontier post No. 1 under the command of Alexander Sivachev was taken by the Nazis after 12 hours of fierce battle, on the field of which three German tanks remained dead and lay two corpses of "superhuman" corpses, the conquest of Russia for which ended without beginning. Of the 19 and a half thousand Soviet border guards who had met the Nazi invasion forever at a military post, 16 thousand remained ...

However, this was the system controlled by the “omnipotent” Lavrenty Beria. Maybe that's why he "ignored Stalin's bans"? Moreover, so much so that his subordinates at the front lines did not meet the enemy with open mittens, but having well-equipped positions - with full profile trenches, firing points and minefields? No, it doesn’t take shape ... Admiral Nikolai Kuznetsov, Commander-in-Chief of the USSR Navy, also for some reason didn’t shake in fear of the Leader’s wrath, but took, and announced in advance readiness No. 1 in the units and formations of all fleets and flotillas subordinate to him without exception. The result - on June 22, it was precisely the sailors who suffered practically no losses. In any case, not a single bomb fell on any ship, although naval bases were one of the first targets for Goering vultures. Moreover - having repelled the enemy’s attempt to break into our land, the Danube Flotilla warriors attacked Hitler’s Romanian allies on their territory on June 25, capturing the city of Kilik-Veke and destroying hundreds of enemy soldiers and officers, losing only 5 people killed! And who bombed Berlin in August 1941? Again - naval aviation, not army aviation, which, alas, by that time had practically ceased to exist. Why? It's time to start talking about it.

"The thought of betrayal did not leave ..."


Almost all of the aircraft that the Red Army had in the western direction was mercilessly destroyed by the enemy on the very first day of the war. The Wehrmacht command reported to Berlin about 800-900 Soviet military aircraft, either burned directly at airfields, or unhindered by airborne bombardment, such as, "whole squadrons of bombers taking off without fighter cover." (Memoirs of the chief of the General Staff of the Wehrmacht, Franz Halder) Why did this happen? Perhaps we will get an answer to this question by listening to another participant in those events - retired lieutenant general Dolgushin, who served in the air regiment deployed in the Grodno region in those days. According to him, "in the evening of June 21, I received an order to remove all weapons and ammunition from the aircraft and to hand them over to the warehouses." The order came from the commander of the district troops and it should be carried out strictly. The unsuccessful attempt to return everything to the place, undertaken the next morning, could no longer help anything - German bombs exploded one after the other. Pilots were left without airplanes. Subtitled words belong to just Dolgushin ...


Is it any wonder after this that among the convicts and executed on October 28, 1941 in Kuibyshev 25 top commanders of the Red Army, at least a third had the most direct relation to aviation. At the same time, they didn’t put to the wall “switchmen” on whom they wrote off the terrible rout, but people of a much higher rank — like lieutenant generals Smushkevich, Loktionov, Rychagov. Those who were supposed to prepare Soviet aircraft in this war. And he prepared ... And at the same time commanders of the aviation of the Kiev Special, Baltic and Western military districts. However, in the West, the deputy commander went on trial - his boss prudently shot himself. After that, according to the definition of some historians, a real “pogrom” was carried out in the Air Force of the Red Army. The purge was total — and the reason for it was not at all the desire of the leadership of the country and the party to “recoup for June 22nd,” but a clear understanding that the cause of the defeat that had befallen our combat aircraft could only be a perfectly conscious betrayal.

The fact that the wildest order, which led to the useless death of all the aviation of the Western Military District, was not at all an accident or “reinsurance”, other tragic events unfolding in this direction leave no doubt. Troops locked in the Brest Fortress, German artillery shells tearing to shreds the bodies of soldiers who were carelessly sleeping in the barracks, who were not supposed to be there at that moment. The complete collapse of command and control, chaos and confusion ... German tanks, already breaking into Minsk on June 28, passing through Wehrmacht, almost without encountering any resistance from Belarus, which God himself created to keep the enemy there for months, relying on forests and swamps ... all this nightmare there are very specific culprits. And the most important of them is the commander of the Western Military District, Army General Dmitry Pavlov. By the example of this far from bright person, we will move on to the main part of our conversation - the story of those who almost ensured Hitler a victory in 1941.

“Negligence” with a smack of treason


Shot on July 22, 1941, together with the chief of staff and the chief of communications of the district, as well as several other commanders, for “negligence and failure to perform official duties” Pavlov in 1957, of course, was rehabilitated by Khrushchev’s personal decision, like his colleagues. I really wanted to once again emphasize Lysy's "paranoid bloodthirstiness" of the Leader, who "executed the innocent for his own sins." Just order now to do with the testimony of Pavlov himself, who later told about his conversations with another rather murky character - army general (later marshal) Kirill Meretskov. In the process of such, these two figures discussed an extremely entertaining topic: the question that in the event of Hitlerite Germany’s attack on the USSR and its victory in this war, “it will definitely not be worse”. Broken testimony? Self-talk? Sure no.

Every step of Pavlov’s action in the first days of the war is not just “negligence”. This is a diversion, a brilliantly conducted combination of surrendering to the enemy a whole military district! About his order to disarm aviation has been said above. But how to evaluate the fact that Pavlov deliberately did not comply with the order until June 15 to withdraw all troops from Brest? As a result, 45 thousand people - two rifle divisions and one tank, with all technique and weapons were literally wiped off the face of the earth by German artillery fire in minutes! Pavlov met the beginning of the war ... lounging in a box at a performance in the Minsk House of Officers. At this time, the troops followed to the summer camps as pioneers on vacation - without communications and ammunition. The units leaving Minsk were allowed to take ... 15 rounds per rifle, the so-called “guard norm"! Many unit commanders learned about the beginning of the war from Molotov’s speech at 12 noon and had no idea where the superior command was, how to contact him and what to do now. Strategic outcome? Two terrible and bloody "cauldrons", the complete collapse and destruction of the Western Front. The Wehrmacht on July 16, 1941 burst into Smolensk, from where a direct road to Moscow opened.

Say: "So it was everywhere in those days"? No, not everywhere! Yes, the Red Army retreated and suffered huge losses on all fronts. However, in the South-West and North-West directions, commanded by the "illiterate horses" Budyonny and Voroshilov, the Germans were not able to drive a single regiment into the full circle in the first month of hostilities - not like divisions or corps. Yes, they were advancing - but far from such a dizzying speed, and even at the same time they received from time to time very sensitive teeth. And let's finally forget the Khrushchev-Zhukovsky nonsense that "Stalin did not give the command to prepare for war"! Already after the death of the Leader, at the end of the 50s the General Staff of the Soviet Army conducted a survey of the surviving marshals and generals, who occupied command posts on June 22. All of them, one and all - army generals Baghramyan, Purkayev, Abramidze, generals Poluboyarov, Sobennikov, Shumilov, unanimously confirmed: there was an order! Someone received it earlier, someone later, but all - no later than June 18-20, 1941. These people in those days commanded units no lower than the division, or even higher. Do not believe their words, I see no reason. The order was! That's just not all rushed to execute it.


Where something similar happened in the Western military district ... What do you think - Pavlov was the only one? To this day, many researchers are perplexed - what exactly bought not just life and freedom, but also general's stripes (later the Marshal star) Meretskov, who was released, according to reliable information, on Stalin’s personal order? I’ll venture to suggest - by the surrender of the accomplices who survived and remained at rather large positions in the Red Army in the "military conspiracy." The ability to destroy all potential traitors was probably more important at that moment to the Supreme than the miserable life of one - already exposed. On this, see, and agreed. And Stalin always kept his word.

They were not finished off in 1937


The events of June 22, 1941, as well as the entire first period of the Great Patriotic War, are just concrete evidence that the conspiracy of the military, declared by our liberal rehabilitators as "an invention of the executioners from the NKVD" and "paranoia of Stalin", actually existed ! Moreover, most likely, there were several such conspiracies (possibly interconnected, “flowing” into one another). First of all, it is Trotskyist. Comrade Trotsky quite openly said that in the event of a war with Hitler, he had to “succumb”, “give Ukraine away,” after which “arrange a revolution in Germany itself” and “take everything back”! Rave? Do not believe? But why - if exactly such a combination Lev Davidovich associates perfectly turned in 1918! Before they had time to eat plenty of Ukrainian lard and bread in Berlin, they received an explosion that destroyed their own empire. The Petliurites, who were subsequently calmly kicked out by the Bolsheviks, quickly got into Kiev, which was left without the supervision of the Teutons. Everything worked out! It is clear that the Third Reich was far from Kaiser Germany, but Trotsky’s plans and his associates cannot be called completely insane either.

Both Meretskov and Pavlov went through the "school of Spain", like many subsequently bitterly mourned by the anti-Stalinists "shot commanders." It’s just that an increasing number of historians have recently come to the conclusion that Spain was precisely permeated through and through by the Trotskyist underground, which turned it into a “forge of cadres” for its own nominees. And, by the way, it was the dominance of like-minded Trotsky that led the Republicans to complete military collapse, in which Pavlov himself played a very definite role. However, the civil war in Spain is a separate issue, so far back to the "native aspens." The fact that the Tukhachevsky conspiracy existed, there is no doubt today, practically, no more. Another question is that besides him and the same Uborevich, other candidates for military dictators of the USSR (which, incidentally, would not have existed in this situation), there was most likely also a small cart. There were characters of a smaller rank, but also with a large number of rhombuses in the buttonholes. It was they who, in time, "fell to the bottom" and overtook the "great purge" of 1937 - the "Stalinist satraps" without the iron "proof" were not just shot or put in prison, they were not removed from their posts ... And on June 22, 1941 decided that finally it was their time ...

The same Pavlov during the investigation told not only about his criminal orders on the eve of the war and in its first days. He, for example, told how, while still being the chief of the General Staff and deputy People’s Commissar of Defense, he participated in the falsification of the mobilization plan of the USSR and the like. He acted at the same time, of course, not alone. Is it worth it to be surprised after the disaster on June 22? And if there was no “case of the military” process? There is no doubt - without Stalin's decisive actions in 1937, the Great Patriotic War could have turned out to be many times more terrible defeats and losses for our country.
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  1. Gunter prereen Offline Gunter prereen
    Gunter prereen (Gunter Preen) 22 June 2019 09: 24
    +2
    This is possible of course. But here it is important not to go to the other extreme. If, then everything could be different at the beginning of the war. Unlikely. The Wehrmacht had two years of war experience and high motivation at all levels in the troops. But anyway, through defeats, through huge losses, at the beginning of the war, they all the same came to VICTORY! Thanks for the article.
    1. semsemch Offline semsemch
      semsemch 24 June 2019 10: 46
      -3
      Quote: Gunter Preen
      Wehrmacht had two years of war experience

      Where is it?
      A couple of weeks in Poland and a few weeks in France, is this "two years of war experience"?
      The Red Army had this experience no less.
      The war in Finland.
      Polish company.
      The conflict at Khalkhin Gol.
      In total, about the same is obtained.

      Quote: Gunter Preen
      and highly motivated at all levels in the troops

      Here. MOTIVATION.
      The Germans, she was and was tall. And only the Bolsheviks wanted to fight for Dzhugashvili. Later, the Bolsheviks solved this problem (quickly enough, I must say). But at first everything was just that, most of the army did not want to fight for Dzhugashvili and the Bolsheviks.

      Quote: Gunter Preen
      But anyway, through defeats, through huge losses, at the beginning of the war, they all the same came to VICTORY!

      In fact, the countries of the Anti-Hitler coalition came to victory. One of which was the USSR.
      The contribution of the USSR to the victory in Europe was also not decisive - in Yalta in 1945, Dzhugashvili agreed it approximately as 1/3 (one of the four occupation zones). The rest was given to the Americans, the British, and the fake French.
      1. Joe Cook Offline Joe Cook
        Joe Cook (Joe Cook) 21 August 2019 02: 52
        +1
        That's it, the usual practice of Western propaganda. Personify. Blame Stalin, Putin, Ivan the Terrible ... And the people were against it. Fought for their homeland and not only the Bolsheviks. And such liberals - pro-Westerners, with such arguments neither the homeland, nor the flag.
  2. Bakht Offline Bakht
    Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 22 June 2019 10: 03
    +2
    I do not believe in total betrayal. Rather, we can talk about incomplete official compliance. And misconceptions about the nature of the initial period of the war. In fact, the Wehrmacht violated the basic principles of hostilities. At the initial stage, this gave him an advantage. But later the whole war the Germans suffered from a lack of reserves.
    1. Nikolai Miracles (Nikolai Chudov) 22 June 2019 10: 24
      +2
      The Germans actually offered the Red Army to substitute itself. The Germans are well able to count the transport shoulder, so the new Soviet-German border turned out to be 300 km closer to Berlin than to Moscow, and the Red Army's transport shoulder became 2x300 km longer than the Wehrmacht. The de facto Red Army accepted the German proposal to substitute. Those who do not consider transport shoulder and believe that the enemy will not attack are doomed to bitter sobering on June 22, 1941.

      In addition, the partition of Poland turned out to be a German tool for breaking the "Stalin line". It took 11 years to build, mothballed and disarmed, and a significant part of the personnel and weapons were moved to the "Molotov line", which was about 25% built.
      1. Bakht Offline Bakht
        Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 22 June 2019 11: 35
        +2
        Transport opportunities are extremely important. But not in this case. All countries of the world at that time believed that the enemy should be met as far as possible.
        The optimal line of defense of Poland is the line of Wisla Narew-San. But the Poles advanced troops to the border.
        The optimal line of defense of France is the line of Scheldt. But the French chose the Dill plan.
        It was better for the Americans to keep a fleet in San Diego. But they put him on a not-so-fit base at Pearl Harbor
        The transport shoulder was leveled by the length of the pause. In two years, you can bring any resources. The value of the defensive lines in 1941 was rather arbitrary.
        Much more important was the deployment of troops. The Red Army was torn into three unconnected echelons. But this was just dictated by the charters of that time. So one of the reasons for the defeat is the inadequacy of the deployment of the main forces of the Red Army
        1. Nikolai Miracles (Nikolai Chudov) 22 June 2019 14: 45
          +1
          All countries of the world at that time believed that the enemy should be met as far as possible.

          And only the Germans counted the "shoulder" correctly.
          1. Bakht Offline Bakht
            Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 22 June 2019 15: 59
            +2
            The Germans made the same mistake as the others. And even more. If we consider only the shoulder of the supply, then the German offensive to Moscow and the Caucasus is simply the height of idiocy.
            There were many other factors.
            1. Nikolai Miracles (Nikolai Chudov) 22 June 2019 20: 01
              0
              "Swing": the German "shoulder" lengthened, and ours shrank, besides, the USSR did not lose manpower, like Germany in 1945, when the German shoulder became shorter than ours.
              1. Bakht Offline Bakht
                Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 23 June 2019 06: 19
                +2
                And what does the year 1945 have to do with it? And how can we say that the USSR has not lost human resources? The USSR won the war with enormous exertion and with great losses. According to some sources, the army lost 10 to 12 million people.
                According to experts, the country can mobilize about 10% of the population in wartime. With a population of approximately 190 million people, the USSR mobilized 32 million. The number of the Red Army in 1945 was about 11 million.
                The Germans, with a population of 80 million, called for about 20 million people. Losses by the killed of about 7-8 million. The number of the Wehrmacht in 1945 is about 5 million
                --------
                The fact that the border moved to the West could not be the cause of defeat. The value of the fortified areas in 1941 was not so great. From must be filled with troops. And the personnel were not enough. At the border there were only 57 divisions against 170 German in the first strike. As early as 1812, Barclay de Tolly rejected the idea of ​​the Drisse fortified camp. In 1914, General Gallieni demanded troops to fill the Paris fortified area. In 1940, the Germans quite easily crossed the Maginot line. And in 1941, the Letichevsky fortified area
                Fortified areas without troops are worthless. And there weren’t enough troops.
                1. Nikolai Miracles (Nikolai Chudov) 23 June 2019 06: 56
                  0
                  Everything is learned by comparison: when the Germans are at the walls of Moscow, another half of the European part of Russia is not occupied, and there is also the Urals, Siberia, Kazakhstan, Central Asia and the Caucasus, and when the Red Army is near Berlin, the Hitler Youth and pensioners were thrown into battle. Hitler no longer had his "Siberian" divisions, only prisoners in Siberia.
                  It is true that without UR troops there is nothing. The troops were defeated at the new border, ammunition depots and equipment remained in the same place, and the Stalin line’s SD defended what they had to do and by whom:

                  1. Bakht Offline Bakht
                    Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 23 June 2019 08: 04
                    +2
                    Have you read Order 227? Summer 1942. "We have lost more than 70 million people, more than 800 million poods of grain a year and more than 10 million tons of metal a year. We already have no predominance over the Germans either in human reserves or in grain reserves."
                    Yes, everything is relative. When militia divisions rush into battle in the fall of 1941, when in the summer of 1942 officer schools go into battle, like soldiers, this is almost a disaster.

                    A.T.Tvardovsky "I was killed near Rzhev"

                    The front burned, not abating,
                    As on the body of the scar.
                    I am killed and do not know -
                    Is our Rzhev finally?

                    Did our
                    There, on the Middle Don?
                    This month was scary.
                    It was all at stake.

                    --------
                    We need to know
                    What was certain
                    There is the last span
                    On the military road, -

                    That last span,
                    What if you leave,
                    That stepped backwards
                    Nowhere to put a leg
                    Etc.

                    1. Nikolai Miracles (Nikolai Chudov) 23 June 2019 09: 54
                      0
                      After the militia and cadets, new divisions went into battle, but after the Hitler Youth and Volkssturm there was no one to throw Hitler into battle.
                      1. Bakht Offline Bakht
                        Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 23 June 2019 10: 39
                        +1
                        I did not give the full text in order 227. I think you know him. It says about the Urals, Siberia, and more ...
                        Returning to a specific case. Leverage is important in planning operations. Therefore, the depth of operations at that time was 300-400 km. This is the maximum that was surpassed only in the Belarusian operation.
                        In 1941, the Germans planned the first stage of 20 days, then a stop in the Smolensk area and then the second stage as early as 20 days to Moscow.
                        Before the war, this did not matter much, because the country had the opportunity to prepare a theater of operations in advance. The transport capabilities of the western regions were inferior to the transport capabilities to the old border. But the resources would be prepared.
                        My opinion is that the catastrophe of the initial period is not connected with the URs themselves, but with a lack of strength. The Germans put all their strength into the first blow, leaving no reserves. This was exactly what came as a surprise to the leadership of the Red Army. All German generals complained about the lack of reserves: Bock, Guderian, Manstein. This ran counter to all the norms of military affairs. Hitler counted on a war with a "colossus with feet of clay." When the Red Army withstood the first battle, the Germans did not find adequate answers.
                        The compact strike groups of the Wehrmacht (on the Eastern Front about 5 million people) against the Western districts (about 3,5 million people scattered to a depth of 200-300 km). The result we all know.
                      2. Nikolai Miracles (Nikolai Chudov) 23 June 2019 12: 22
                        0
                        I completely agree that:

                        The initial catastrophe is associated not with the URs themselves, but with a lack of strength

                        - in URah. Chief of General Staff B.M. Shaposhnikov was right in proposing in 1940 to deploy the main forces of the Red Army on the old border.

                      3. semsemch Offline semsemch
                        semsemch 24 June 2019 12: 13
                        0
                        Quote: Bakht
                        When the Red Army survived the first battle,

                        Learn history, academician.
                        11.07.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX the Germans canceled the plan of Barbaross precisely because he fettered their activity. Because the pace of their progress was noticeably higher than according to this plan.
                        From July 11.07 to September 11.09.1941, XNUMX, the Germans fought against all the canons in the regime of a large gang of Old Man Makhno.
                        Then they realized their mistake and returned to the classical conduct of hostilities. But time was lost and the company of 1941, the Germans, as planned did not complete (did not reach the Volga and the Northern Dvina).
                        Along with this, they did not manage to withdraw Soviet mobressurs from the Anglo-Saxon cage.
                        This is on the one hand. And on the other hand, retaining the Eastern Front, they avoided the total destruction of Germany by the Anglo-Saxons from the air.
                      4. Bakht Offline Bakht
                        Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 24 June 2019 12: 15
                        0
                        Will there be at least one document? Or is it all your personal fabrications?
                      5. semsemch Offline semsemch
                        semsemch 24 June 2019 12: 18
                        -1
                        Quote: Bakht
                        Will there be at least one document?

                        Internet to help, "academician". I'm not a good offices bureau.
                        And I will not teach you, "academician". You don't have so much money, you can't afford my services.
                        So learn in fits and starts. While I am still writing on this site. Take a moment.
                      6. Bakht Offline Bakht
                        Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 24 June 2019 12: 28
                        0
                        So your opinion is "don't give a damn and forget"
                      7. The comment was deleted.
            2. semsemch Offline semsemch
              semsemch 24 June 2019 11: 58
              -1
              Quote: Nikolay Chudov
              but after the Hitler Youth and Volkssturm there was no one to throw Hitler into battle.

              1. Cases of fighting by German children and pensions are greatly exaggerated. Although such facts have happened.
              2. And above all, no one. The war in Germany did not last long, the Germans even then cherished their civilians. Therefore, they gave up quickly enough.
            3. Nikolai Miracles (Nikolai Chudov) 24 June 2019 17: 07
              0
              Berlin July 1945. Some women, a few old people and children, work on the ruins. Men of military age on the streets of the unit, not counting the police.

    2. assault 2019 Offline assault 2019
      assault 2019 (assault 2019) 23 June 2019 23: 16
      0
      At the border there were only 57 divisions against 170 German in the first, m strike.

      With a well-organized defense and pre-prepared positions, a 1: 3 force ratio is not critical and allows for a long time to conduct maneuvering defensive battles, constantly luring the enemy into ambush, fire bags to minefields ....
      Destroyed bridges, roads, transport junctions, and blown up dams would allow the Germans to be detained in Belarus for at least two to three months, and there the autumn roadway would also forge Wehrmacht armored fists.
      The betrayal of the high command of the Western Front is the main, but not the only reason for the defeats of the first period of the war.
      Stalin's guilt is undoubtedly present and lies in the fact that he, as the supreme commander in chief:
      - did not ensure the proper combat readiness of the troops of the Western Front, and in general the Red Army,
      - did not take active steps to remove the command of the Western Front before the start of the war or in the first days after the outbreak of hostilities, - could not create a parallel system for the operational collection of reliable information from the fronts through military intelligence, the Ministry of Internal Affairs and the NKVD,
      - did not form a reserve for the commanders of fronts, armies, and divisions in the event of a large-scale war.
      1. Bakht Offline Bakht
        Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 23 June 2019 23: 45
        +2
        The ratio of 1: 3 filled his edge. This ratio is not confirmed anywhere. Possession of the initiative allows you to create an overwhelming advantage in selected areas. And in the directions of the main attacks the ratio was 1: 9
        You famously painted that Stalin did not. But a lot of what was listed was done. Including regarding the combat readiness of the troops. Why was the command removed before the war? I'm still not sure that there was a betrayal.
        An amazing thing. Poland lost the war in two weeks. Is anyone talking about the betrayal of the Polish generals? France died in a month. Is anyone talking about the betrayal of the French generals? What is the habit of looking for "enemies of the people"?
        1. semsemch Offline semsemch
          semsemch 24 June 2019 12: 38
          -1
          Quote: Bakht
          The ratio of 1: 3 filled his edge. This ratio is not confirmed anywhere.

          Read military textbooks. Everything is written there.
          Moreover, 1: 3, this is in poorly prepared positions. On the strengthened positions and 1: 5 is not a big problem.

          Quote: Bakht
          Possession of the initiative allows you to create an overwhelming advantage in selected areas.

          Wow. And you are also a military strategist.
          But what about mobile reserves in the depths of defense?
          Didn’t think?
          Think about it.

          Quote: Bakht
          And in the directions of the main attacks the ratio was 1: 9

          The first couple of hours. And then the mob is pulled. reserves from the depths of defense, and finite.
          No, you are obviously not trained in military affairs.

          Quote: Bakht
          Poland blew the war in two weeks. Someone talking about the betrayal of Polish generals?

          The order to leave and intern abroad was given to the Polish army only after the USSR entered the war. And this is more than 2 weeks.
          Poland fought with two much more powerful neighboring powers.

          Quote: Bakht
          France died in a month.

          From September 3.09.1939, 24.06.1940 to June XNUMX, XNUMX, somehow more than a month passed.

          Quote: Bakht
          Someone talking about the betrayal of the French generals?

          Yes, they did. And Petan (Marshal) was sent to prison after the war. And not him alone.
          1. Bakht Offline Bakht
            Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 24 June 2019 12: 43
            0
            One phrase "in a couple of hours the reserves are pulled up" shows all the squalor
          2. semsemch Offline semsemch
            semsemch 24 June 2019 12: 52
            0
            Quote: Bakht
            One phrase "in a couple of hours the reserves are pulled up" shows all the squalor

            And for how much? In 5 minutes?
            Or in 5 hours?
            No, this one definitely doesn’t cut anything in military affairs.
          3. Bakht Offline Bakht
            Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 24 June 2019 12: 56
            0
            How long does it take according to the standard for raising the mechanized corps on alert?
            How long does it take to make a march of 200 km?
          4. semsemch Offline semsemch
            semsemch 24 June 2019 13: 00
            0
            Quote: Bakht
            How long does it take according to the standard for raising the mechanized corps on alert?

            Is the mechanized corps a mobile reserve?
            Do you even know what a mechanized corps is and what it was intended for?

            Quote: Bakht
            How long does it take to make a march of 200 km?

            And the mobile reserves in the depths of defense should be located 200 km? And why not 2000 km? Or not 20000 km?
            It seems that you are not even close to know what mobile reserves are in defense.
            You don’t even know which troops are involved in the defense.
            Learn "academician". I've already written about this 100 times.
          5. Bakht Offline Bakht
            Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 24 June 2019 13: 11
            +1
            You are clearly not aware of the deployment and purpose of the mechanized corps. What such mobile reserves was ZAPOVO?
            But there is no color? So how long does it take? You wrote "a couple of hours". For reference. But the 1941 standards need an hour and a half to raise the alarm of a rifle regiment.
          6. semsemch Offline semsemch
            semsemch 24 June 2019 13: 27
            0
            Quote: Bakht
            You are clearly not aware of the deployment and purpose of the mechanized corps.

            Once again, for those in an armored train, a mechanized corps, this is not a defense weapon. They are not among the mobile reserves. This is a means of attack and attack. Because the Red Army planned to attack from YUZOVO. And within the boundaries of the POVO and ZOVO, the Red Army planned to RESERVE.

            Quote: Bakht
            What such mobile reserves was ZAPOVO?

            What are the state, such were.

            Quote: Bakht
            But the 1941 standards for raising the alarm of a rifle regiment need an hour and a half

            What alarm?
            When there is a war, there is no alarm. It has already been announced. Since the beginning of the war. Moreover, mobile reserves are deployed in an undeveloped state. We jumped into the bodies and drove off. That's all "raising the alarm".
  • semsemch Offline semsemch
    semsemch 24 June 2019 12: 31
    -2
    Quote: assault 2019
    The betrayal of the high command of the Western Front is the main, but not the only reason for the defeats of the first period of the war.

    In fact, there were not so many Bolsheviks and scoops in the USSR. And besides them, nobody really wanted to fight for Dzhugashvili. The Bolsheviks quickly enough solved this problem. But at first there were not so many people who wanted to fight the Germans.

    Quote: assault 2019
    did not take active steps to remove the command

    On whom?
    Did the generals-ignoramuses have to be replaced by "nimble majors"? But they were even more ignorant than the generals.

    Quote: assault 2019
    He did not form a reserve for the commanders of fronts, armies, and divisions in case of a large-scale war.

    Of whom?
    After the outbreak of the war, the Red Army broke up into actually separate brigades. Because the level of the Soviet commanders did not allow anything larger to command. He did not grow much further. But by the end of the war in the Red Army it was already possible to find a sufficient number of divisional commanders.
  • semsemch Offline semsemch
    semsemch 24 June 2019 11: 54
    -3
    Quote: Bakht
    USSR won the war

    He did not win, but was among the winners in the war.
    Learn Russian.
    We have lost 1/5 of the pre-war population and are talking about some kind of "gain".

    Quote: Bakht
    According to some sources, the army lost 10 to 12 million people.

    19 million people according to the State Planning Committee of the USSR, declassified in 2017.

    Quote: Bakht
    According to experts, the country can mobilize about 10% of the population in wartime.

    These are bullshit. The USSR supplied women, starks and children to the machine tools and mobilized much more.
    In addition, since the year 1943, 17 year olds began to be mobilized into the army in the USSR. And since the fall of 1944 and 16 year olds.

    Quote: Bakht
    people, the USSR mobilized 32 million

    Army in 1945 11,3 million
    Killed 19 million
    Disabled disabled 15,2 million
    Already 45,5 million is obtained. Although the most popular figure mobilized so far is 34,5 million people.
    Indeed, only 34,5 million people could mobilize the USSR. The remaining 11 million could be volunteers. Before the war, there were enough Bolsheviks and scoops in the USSR.

    Quote: Bakht
    The Germans, with a population of 80 million, called for about 20 million people.

    The Reich Germans were more than 90 million.
    German Germans were a little over 70 million.
    German Germans mobilized about 18 million people.

    Quote: Bakht
    Losses of the killed about 7-8 million.

    It was lost 4,44 million Germans of Germany or 5,3 million Germans of the Reich.
    The Reich was larger than Germany.
    This is on all fronts, and the Germans had several. On the Eastern Front, the Germans (Reich) lost about 3,54-3,60 million people. Of these, 2,743 million people on 31.12.1944/1945/XNUMX. For XNUMX, the calculations are not so accurate.

    Quote: Bakht
    And the personnel were not enough.

    The number of the Red Army on June 21.06.1941, 5 was about XNUMX million people.
    And by 01.07.1941 10,4 million people. And again "not enough"?
    Quote: Bakht
    At the border there were only 57 divisions against 170 German in the first strike.

    In vain do you write this nonsense.

    Quote: Bakht
    And there weren’t enough troops.

    Enough. And in abundance.
    But they squandered. Because "Soviet generals" and generals are not synonymous. Actually, everything where the "Soviet ...." first appears are not synonyms.
    1. Bakht Offline Bakht
      Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 24 June 2019 11: 57
      +1
      No declassified data of the State Planning Commission does not exist in nature. It's a lie. Losses of the USSR in the war 26,6 million people.
      You are fed up with your lies.
      1. semsemch Offline semsemch
        semsemch 24 June 2019 12: 15
        -2
        Quote: Bakht
        No declassified data of the State Planning Commission does not exist in nature. It's a lie. Losses of the USSR in the war 26,6 million people.

        Yeah. Everyone lies. And the Russian State Duma is also lying?
        http://polkrf.ru/news/1275/parlamentskie_slushaniya_patrioticheskoe_vospitanie_bessmertnyiy_polk/
        1. Bakht Offline Bakht
          Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 24 June 2019 12: 23
          +1
          You are sick of this link, in which there is nothing. Where is the document itself. This lie has long been refuted. And there are no mention of any declassified data of the State Planning Commission. Nikolai Zemskov sawing loot. 15 million rubles for 15 million dead.
          There are two movements "Immortal Regiment", liar
        2. Bakht Offline Bakht
          Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 24 June 2019 12: 27
          0
          Deputy Zemtsov has a very mixed reputation. The founders of the Immortal Regiment rally accuse him of stealing and politicizing the movement. In 2015, he registered the movement “Immortal Regiment of Russia” - parallel to the “Immortal Regiment”. In fact, thanks to the "Immortal Regiment of Russia" Zemtsov became a deputy of the State Duma of the current convocation. He got out of United Russia, which does not fit into the concept of a non-political movement.
          Criticized Zemtsova and ally in movement actor Vasily Lanovoy. Just at the meeting where it was said about 42 million, Lanovoi said that Zemtsov “does not even inform the co-chairs of the upcoming events, but instead actively masters state grants - at least 15 million rubles for 2015 and 2016.” In addition, the movement’s charter “was amended for which the congress did not vote”.
          Earlier Zemtsov launched the site "NarodnyProekt.rf". It proposes to "fix the fate of the missing defenders of the Fatherland." It can be assumed that this is the whole point of overstating the number of losses by 15 million people. Perhaps Zemtsov thus simply wanted to receive additional financing for the project. For a person who has already used the dead veterans once to obtain a deputy mandate, this option does not look fantastic.
          It remains only to advise readers and viewers of the media to check such information themselves, and Do not believe in references to the State Duma or the Ministry of Defense, when in fact these official institutions did not say anything. It is not difficult to do this.
        3. Bakht Offline Bakht
          Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 24 June 2019 12: 38
          0
          Hitler phrase in January 1945 that the loss of the Wehrmacht amounted to 12,5 million people. Of these, half are killed.
          Keitel in his memoirs. Losses at the front were approximately 100-150 thousand people per month, not counting major battles. He also estimated the losses of the Wehrmacht at 6 million dead.
          With the loss of 42 million people, the USSR was to surrender. If Germany lost just 1 million people by 1943, the Germans were to drink champagne in Moscow. Not only are they lying here, they are also not friends with the head.
        4. semsemch Offline semsemch
          semsemch 24 June 2019 17: 51
          -4
          Quote: Bakht
          Hitler phrase in January 1945,

          You never know what Hitler had phrases. Not everyone believes him like you do.

          Quote: Bakht
          Keitel in his memoirs.

          Keitel wrote them in prison and from memory. There he could write a lot of things.

          Quote: Bakht
          He also estimated the approximate losses of the Wehrmacht

          They are counted up to a thousand people (surname) - 4,44 million Germans of Germany or 5,3 million Germans of the Reich. And the Germans (Reich) lost about 3,54-3,60 million people on the Eastern Front. Of these, 2,743 million people on 31.12.1944/1945/XNUMX. For XNUMX, the calculations are not so accurate.

          Quote: Bakht
          With the loss of 42 million people, the USSR was to surrender.

          Had to give up much earlier. But the life of people Dzhugashvili was not particularly interested. But the preservation of personal power was very interesting.

          Quote: Bakht
          If Germany lost just 1 million people by 1943, the Germans were to drink champagne in Moscow.

          What nonsense.
          In fact, the Red Army only captured in 1941 lost several million prisoners of war. And nobody drank champagne anywhere.
      2. semsemch Offline semsemch
        semsemch 24 June 2019 17: 36
        -3
        Quote: Bakht
        It remains only to advise readers and viewers of the media

        Exactly. It’s not at all difficult not to read the comments (the level of delirium which rolls over) of official events in the State Duma of the Russian Federation with the participation of the Ministry of Defense, veteran organizations, etc.
        It is clearly written by reference, this is the declassified data of the USSR State Planning Committee. Not Zemskova, not Trump, but the USSR State Planning Commission. Which after the war included the CSB of the USSR.
        Zemskov could not deceive everyone, it was there that before the report he had the primary sources checked. And if it is written that according to declassified data there are such and such figures, then there is no doubt that everything was exactly as it was written there.
    2. semsemch Offline semsemch
      semsemch 24 June 2019 12: 39
      -1
      Quote: Bakht
      You are sick of this link, in which there is nothing. Where is the document itself.

      Write to the State Duma of the Russian Federation. Demand the document itself.
      But in general, hearings in the State Duma, this is the document. Since the State Duma of the Russian Federation, it is the highest body of state power.

      Quote: Bakht
      This lie has long been refuted.

      By whom? Neither the Ministry of Defense, nor the State Duma of the Russian Federation, nor veteran organizations (their representatives were at their presentation) did not refute these figures.
      Your opinion does not count.

      Quote: Bakht
      Nikolai Zemskov sawing loot.

      Another bad one?
      Everyone whose opinion does not fit into standard agitation is all bad.
    3. Bakht Offline Bakht
      Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 24 June 2019 12: 42
      0
      I already said, until I submitted a link to the document of the State Planning Commission, your words do not cost anything. Absolutely nothing.
      Just for my curiosity. Are you from Ukraine?
    4. semsemch Offline semsemch
      semsemch 24 June 2019 12: 51
      0
      Quote: Bakht
      I already said, until I submitted a link to the document of the State Planning Commission, your words do not cost anything. Absolutely nothing.

      Why should I be interested in your opinion?

      Quote: Bakht
      Are you from Ukraine?

      But what about the traditional "Pindos"?
      By the way, Pindos (from the Pindus mountains) is a traditional and inoffensive nickname for the Greeks. Something like "Caucasians". Why they decided to call amers Pindos is not clear. From ignorance, I guess. There is also the standard nickname "Yankees".
    5. Bakht Offline Bakht
      Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 24 June 2019 12: 58
      +1
      This is just my curiosity. The figure of 42 million is actively used on Ukrainian sites. Plus your extraordinary activity on the site
      Well, my personal opinion, which is disputed by many here. Ukrainians are the enemies of the Russians. And more dangerous than the Americans. At least because of its proximity to the borders.
    6. Bakht Offline Bakht
      Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 24 June 2019 13: 00
      +1
      In one week, more than 200 messages. And half of them are false, and the other half are just stupid
    7. The comment was deleted.
  • semsemch Offline semsemch
    semsemch 24 June 2019 13: 22
    0
    Quote: Bakht
    The figure of 42 million is actively used on Ukrainian sites.

    So the correct number is used there. That's all.
    Quote: Bakht
    Ukrainians are the enemies of the Russians.

    Ukrainians (Ukraine) is a hodgepodge created by the Bolsheviks as opposed to Russia.

    Ukrainians are:

    1. Rusichi Rus
    2. Transcarpathian Rusyns
    3. Subcarpathian Rusyns (Galicians)
    4. Volyn Litvin
    5. The Litvinians of Podolia (now fully assimilated by the Russians of Ukraine)
    6. Surzhiki New Russia
    7. Cossacks of Zaporozhye
    8. Scoops of Ukraine
    Until recently, this is still:
    9. part of the Don Cossacks
    10. Crimean Tatars (Crimea was transferred to the Ukrainian SSR by the Communists)

    All these peoples have different attitudes towards Russians. Therefore, definitely nothing can be said on this topic.
    Rusichi Rus (and scoops having the same roots) are the closest (genetically) relatives of Tartar, one of the ancestors of Russians. Actually in ancient times, it was generally one people (ancient Rusichs), which later was divided into two branches (a separate branch of tartar stood out).
    However, Rusich Rus, this is not the most benevolent Russian people in Ukraine.
    Just like the Poles, the closest relatives of Russians of Ukraine and Russians, they are far from friends.

    Quote: Bakht
    And more dangerous than the Americans. At least because of its proximity to the borders

    Does the US economic power not matter?
  • Bakht Offline Bakht
    Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 24 June 2019 13: 01
    +1
    This is unknown to you. Pindos are called pindocs because they are pindocs. The word came from the former Yugoslavia. Not connected with Greece
  • The comment was deleted.
  • gorbunov.vladisl (Vlad Dudnik) 23 June 2019 09: 47
    +3
    The Germans are well able to count the transport shoulder, so the new Soviet-German border turned out to be 300 km closer to Berlin than to Moscow, and the Red Army's transport shoulder became 2x300 km longer than the Wehrmacht.

    Honestly, it doesn’t matter if you yourself invented this or quoted a not-so-smart person. There is absolutely no difference at what distance the troops were from their capitals. Because everything they needed for warfare was in close proximity.
    The removal of Washington did not prevent the same Americans from successfully landing in Normandy. Because all the necessities were with them on the ships. And where is the capital and how much further is Berlin? Absolutely no difference.
    1. Nikolai Miracles (Nikolai Chudov) 23 June 2019 09: 59
      0
      Transport opportunities are extremely important. But not in this case. All countries of the world at that time believed that the enemy should be met as far as possible.
      The optimal line of defense of Poland is the line of Wisla Narew-San. But the Poles advanced troops to the border.
      The optimal line of defense of France is the line of Scheldt. But the French chose the Dill plan.
      It was better for the Americans to keep a fleet in San Diego. But they promoted him to a not very adapted base at Pearl Harbor ...

      The Red Army was torn into three unconnected echelons. But this was just dictated by the charters of that time. So one of the reasons for the defeat is the inadequacy of the deployment of the main forces of the Red Army.
      1. gorbunov.vladisl (Vlad Dudnik) 23 June 2019 10: 06
        +2
        Transport opportunities are extremely important.

        Are important. Especially in a protracted war. But the Red Army began to recede from the very first days of the war. When everything was necessary in warehouses directly at the place of deployment of the parts. So where does the removal of troops from their capitals? How does this affect the success or failure of troops?
        1. Nikolai Miracles (Nikolai Chudov) 23 June 2019 10: 36
          +1
          everything needed was in warehouses directly at the place of deployment of the parts.

          No, not all. You do not want to notice that the distance problem worked before the war, in the process of deployment:

          The Red Army was torn into three unconnected echelons. But this was just dictated by the charters of that time. So one of the reasons for the defeat is the inadequacy of the deployment of the main forces of the Red Army.

          The capitals are just points on the map, the starting point is Brest, then count on both sides:
          1) to Berlin or Moscow,
          2) to the Ruhr or the Urals,
          3) to Bordeaux or Vladivostok.

          In any case, the Germans are closer to transporting troops and supplies in preparation for an invasion than we are. This is the "secret" of the faster deployment of the Wehrmacht and the "underdevelopment" of the Red Army, which:

          did not have time to create either an offensive or defensive group
  • Rusa Offline Rusa
    Rusa 23 June 2019 12: 15
    0
    For N. Chudov

    G. Zhukov, in the presence of Stalin, criticized the "Molotov line" that it was located near the border. However, those who designed and built it did not draw conclusions in time. It was obviously too late.
    1. Nikolai Miracles (Nikolai Chudov) 23 June 2019 12: 31
      0
      I am here only about this and write: "It was late." D. Pavlov filed a report on the need to withdraw troops from the Bialystok salient.
  • Neurocrop Offline Neurocrop
    Neurocrop (Alexander) 22 June 2019 12: 28
    +4
    There is no question of general betrayal. However, you must admit that some of the wildest "managerial decisions" in a simple "incomplete official" also fit poorly. Tea, not about the boys-lieutenants, but about the generals, for the most part who had combat experience.
    I agree that it was not one or two factors that led to the tragedy, but the totality of those, both objective and subjective.
    The main thing is that Hitler did not have any factors for victory. Eternal memory and eternal glory to the heroes of those days.
    1. semsemch Offline semsemch
      semsemch 24 June 2019 12: 49
      0
      Quote: Non-European
      but about the generals, most of whom had combat experience.

      What if not a secret?
      If the "Civil War", then this is not the war.
      And if it’s 1MB, then then for the most part they were vahmisters and sergeants.

      Quote: Non-European
      The main thing is that Hitler did not have any factors for victory.

      Hitler lacked the willpower to curb his own generals, as he did in France in 1940. As a result, these stupid (German combatant generals) led the Wehrmacht to the failure of the 1941 company plan.
      If Hitler had taken the side of the staff generals (Keitel, Jodl, Paulus), as it was in 1940, the Germans on the Eastern Front would have ended strictly according to plan, 29.09.1941/XNUMX/XNUMX, And exactly where it was planned - on the Astrakhan line -Arkhangelsk along the Volga and Northern Dvina.
      But Hitler in 1941 took the side of combatant generals. Therefore, what was next was what happened.

      Quote: Non-European
      Eternal memory and eternal glory to the heroes of those days.

      This did not affect anything. In 1941, the course of the war was determined EXCLUSIVELY by the Germans. As they all piled, so it happened.
  • semsemch Offline semsemch
    semsemch 24 June 2019 10: 49
    -2
    Quote: Bakht
    In fact, the Wehrmacht violated the basic principles of hostilities.

    What is it like? Shot from cannons and machine guns?

    Quote: Bakht
    But later the whole war the Germans suffered from a lack of reserves.

    Because Frau, the elderly and children she didn’t massively put to the machine tools, as the Bolsheviks did.
    By the way, these people did not have the right to leave their workplace (quit). These were real slaves who worked for a piece of bread.
  • Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
    Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 22 June 2019 12: 10
    0
    As I understand it, Stalin was a bad leader not because he overslept the start of the war and allowed the Germans to prepare for it for two years, but because he appointed not just incompetent people, but simply traitors to the top army posts? Where did he get their runoff?
  • Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
    Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 22 June 2019 12: 26
    0
    But seriously, nonsense. Pavlov initiator of the creation of new T-34 and KV tanks. He initiated the disbandment of tank corps and the formation of tank brigades (with which the Red Army reached Berlin, and the corps showed their inefficiency just in the summer of 41). Something of his treacherous activity greatly helped the USSR. And the idea that the dead Trotsky dreamed that the USSR would lose to Germany, and this should lead to a world revolution ... This is crazy nonsense and I can not believe that the creator of the USSR was unhealthy.
    1. Bakht Offline Bakht
      Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 22 June 2019 13: 10
      +1
      Tank brigades could not reach Berlin. Tank armies reached Berlin. About the creation of the T-34, you need to look. It seems that Pavlov wanted to stop the production of the T-34 and produce the BT-7. Voroshilov insisted on the release of the T-34.
      1. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
        Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 22 June 2019 18: 19
        +2
        On May 9, 1938, an NGO meeting was held, following which the following decision was made:

        The offer of comrade Pavlov on the creation by the plant of 183 caterpillar tanks to recognize as expedient with reinforcing reservations in the frontal part to 30 mm. To adapt the turret of the tank for the installation of a 76-mm gun. Crew - 4 people.

        Pavlov from November 37 to June 40 head of the Armored Directorate of the Red Army. When he was the chief, the T-34 was developed and adopted.
        1. Bakht Offline Bakht
          Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 22 June 2019 20: 21
          0
          Pavlov was in favor of having a new tank. But....
          Until mid-1940, he headed the ABTU (subsequently the GABTU). The T-34 tank was developed on an initiative basis at the Kharkov Tank. Of course, in Moscow they knew about the project, but they didn’t push it much. Koshkin himself had to drive two tanks to Moscow for a show.
          Now comes the fun part. In the summer of 1940, comparative tests of the T-3 and T-34 tanks were carried out in Kubinka. The reports are just killing. The German on the highway even overtook the BT-7. Manufacturability, suspension quality, smoothness, convenience in all respects, the German beat the T-34 like a baby. According to the results, the test report was signed by Kulik and Pavlov and demanded to stop production of the T-34 until all the shortcomings were eliminated. The T-34 was saved by Voroshilov. Nevertheless, according to the results of military practice in January 1941, the T-34 was still discontinued. Pavlov did not mind, on the contrary, he pushed the T-50 light tank with all his might. In April, thanks to the efforts of the same "backward" Voroshilov, the T-34 was again put into production.
          1. Bakht Offline Bakht
            Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 22 June 2019 20: 50
            0
            https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Т-34

            As a result, the GABTU submitted a negative report of the NIBTP to the Deputy People’s Commissar of Defense Marshal G.I. Kulik, who approved it and thereby stopped the production and acceptance of the T-34 tank. The leadership of the GABTU, including a negative review of the T-34 specialists of the training ground in the test report, sent it to the deputy people's commissar of defense, Marshal G.I. Kulik, who, without understanding the essence of the report, hastened to approve it. Thereby, production and acceptance of T-34 tanks were discontinued.

            The conclusions of the NIBPT commission were considered at the military council and approved by the Marshal of the USSR - G.I. Kulik. The military representatives of plant No. 183 were instructed to stop the acceptance of T-34 tanks and to resume the acceptance of BT-7 tanks with a KT-26 cannon.

            This is the fall of 1940. Pavlov is already the commander of the ZAPOVO. But it has a direct relation to tanks.

            The flow of complaints came to GBTU. And the responsible employees of the department, including its head, Y. N. Fedorenko, who replaced DG Pavlov in May, had a negative attitude towards the T-34. Moreover, GBTU turned to the People's Commissariat of Defense with a proposal to temporarily stop the production of T-34 and continue to produce well-developed BT-7M. D. G. Pavlov and G. I. Kulik also spoke out against the T-34 and proposed putting the T-50 into production
            1. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
              Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 23 June 2019 00: 55
              0
              Based on this decision of the NPO, the A-32 caterpillar tank was developed, which eventually became the T-34 tank, what’s wrong? Comparing the T-3 and T-34 is rather strange, the T-3 is a light tank, the T-34 is medium, the frontal armor is 30 and 45, the gun is 37 and 76. The T-3 had to be pulled up to the T-34 in order to hit. Yes, the T-3 impressed the command of the Red Army and therefore its analogue T-50 was developed. The T-50 was much cheaper than the T-34, and the plans were to create some incredible amount of fur hulls and the cost of the tank was critical. You have written this long text. What are the conclusions? What is Pavlov the traitor? Not convinced. It can be incompetent. But incompetence is characteristic of almost all military leaders (including the supreme) of the initial period of the war.
              1. Bakht Offline Bakht
                Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 23 June 2019 05: 57
                +2
                Did I write that Pavlov is a traitor? I wrote about incomplete competence. It is incomplete. A long text was needed to show that Pavlov was not an apologist for T-34. Although the tankman seemed to be seeing the perspective of the tank. The T-34-76 was a crude tank. The best tank should still be considered the T-34-85. But this is my opinion. Not a specialist.
                You wrote that Pavlov was the initiator of the creation of the T-34. Yes, he was the head of ABTU at that time. The creation of a new tank was necessary, but it was not the initiator of the T-34.
                Your second statement that tank brigades reached Berlin is quite controversial. The tasks that brigades and corps can solve are very different. Serdyukov carried out the idea of ​​brigades. Now they are returning to divisions and a tank army is being formed (or rather, 1 TA is being restored). Why? Berlin did not reach the brigade and tank armies
                1. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
                  Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 23 June 2019 12: 24
                  0
                  Pavlov stood for a tank with anti-shell armor, a 76 mm cannon and a goose move. When he was head of the ABTU, the T-34 tank with anti-shell armor, a 76 mm cannon and a gooseneck was developed and put into service. Coincidence? I don’t think !!!
                  The Mehkorpus of the first year of the war was not criticized only by the lazy, because of their gigantic size, difficult handling, and accordingly low combat efficiency. PS In general, does anyone believe in Pavlov’s betrayal?
                  1. Bakht Offline Bakht
                    Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 23 June 2019 12: 59
                    0
                    I personally do not believe. Stalin did not believe either. In any case, there is not a word in the court and the betrayal order.
                  2. Bakht Offline Bakht
                    Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 23 June 2019 13: 03
                    +1
                    The general trend is caterpillar, gun and booking. Even at the stage of BT release, they talked about switching to caterpillars. An obstacle was the unreliability of the tracks. A 100 km mileage was considered an achievement. Because they built tanks mixed propulsion. By the way, not only in the USSR. Both in Germany and in the UK. Improving the reliability of the tracks and began to build tanks on the tracks. By the way, pay attention to the performance characteristics of modern tanks. Usually called speed of 72 km / h.
                    1. semsemch Offline semsemch
                      semsemch 24 June 2019 14: 14
                      0
                      Quote: Bakht
                      Even at the stage of BT release, they talked about switching to caterpillars.

                      It is not true.
                      And the rejection of the T-34 wheel drive was because the concept of the tank had changed. It was a success development tank (A-20), became an infantry escort tank.
                      The mixed drive did not fit well with the torsion bar suspension. In addition, the partners for success development tanks, breakout tanks (KV), were tracked. Therefore, the T-50 was purely tracked.
                  3. semsemch Offline semsemch
                    semsemch 24 June 2019 14: 11
                    0
                    Quote: Oleg Rambover
                    Pavlov stood for a tank with anti-shell armor, a 76 mm cannon and a goose move. When he was head of the ABTU, the T-34 tank with anti-shell armor, a 76 mm cannon and a gooseneck was developed and put into service. Coincidence? I don’t think !!!

                    Pavlov and developed the T-34. Conceptually. But then Voroshilov cut this concept in favor of "production workers". As a result, it turned out not at all what Pavlov wanted.
                2. semsemch Offline semsemch
                  semsemch 24 June 2019 14: 09
                  0
                  Quote: Bakht
                  The best tank should still be considered the T-34-85.

                  Among what? Among the trash?
                  The best and even just good equipment (including military) was not made in the USSR. Not allowed the technical and technological level of development of the country.

                  Quote: Bakht
                  Why? Berlin did not reach the brigade and tank armies

                  And nothing that "Berlin" was still in the days of Tsar Pea and since then everything has changed in the most radical way?
                  1. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
                    Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 25 June 2019 12: 15
                    +1
                    Quote: semsemch
                    Among what? Among the trash?
                    The best and even just good equipment (including military) was not made in the USSR. Not allowed the technical and technological level of development of the country.

                    T-34 was the best tank for those realities of the USSR, the possibility of industry, personnel literacy. We were able to establish mass production at existing facilities. The tank had flaws, but they were compensated for by mass, and the main characteristics were on the level of time (and at the beginning of the war they exceeded). Admiral Doenitz was against the new boats of the XXI project, since they were expensive, he said, like, make me a cheap VII, but a lot. Also with tanks, the Panther is a good tank (for medium), but for those conditions it is too expensive and therefore generally lost the T-34.
                    1. semsemch Offline semsemch
                      semsemch 25 June 2019 17: 41
                      -2
                      Quote: Oleg Rambover
                      T-34 was the best tank for those realities of the USSR, the possibility of industry, personnel literacy.

                      T-34/76 was just ready for release.
                      In fact, the technical and technological base of the USSR (very dead before the war, despite the cries of the mythical pre-war "industrialization") made it possible to make significantly more advanced products than the T-34/76. But for this, specialists had to manage all this. And where did they come from in the USSR? All who were, were either repressed or expelled from the USSR.

                      Quote: Oleg Rambover
                      Admiral Doenitz was against the new boats of the XXI project, since they were expensive, he said, like, make me a cheap VII, but a lot.

                      These are tales. First of all, Doenitz did not have submariners. Specialists. But just the boats he had.

                      Quote: Oleg Rambover
                      Also with tanks, the Panther is a good tank (for medium), but for those conditions it is too expensive and therefore generally lost the T-34.

                      The Panther could not lose the T-34, because it was a BTT of a different class.
                      More or less with T-34/76, Pz.III is comparable to KwK39.
                      And with the T-34/85, Pz.IV is more or less comparable with the KwK40.
                      The panther is no side here.
              2. semsemch Offline semsemch
                semsemch 24 June 2019 14: 06
                0
                Quote: Oleg Rambover
                Comparing the T-3 and T-34 is rather strange, the T-3 is a light tank, the T-34 is medium,

                And Pz.III, and T-34/76 (as planned) were tanks of infantry support. Those. these were the most direct competitors.
                The BTT weight did not matter.

                Quote: Oleg Rambover
                gun 37

                It was in ancient times. In ancient times, in the Red Army, tanks of a similar class were armed with 45 mm guns (T-26).
                In fact, the 50 mm Pz.III KwK39 gun exceeded the 76 mm T-34 F-34 gun in armor-piercing, but slightly inferior to it in OS fragmentation (O-350A).

                Quote: Oleg Rambover
                The T-3 impressed the command of the Red Army and therefore its analogue T-50 was developed.

                The analogue (for the intended purpose) of the T-50 (before it BT-7) in the Panzervaff was Pz38 (t).
                1. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
                  Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 25 June 2019 12: 37
                  0
                  Quote: semsemch
                  It was in ancient times. In ancient times, in the Red Army, tanks of a similar class were armed with 45 mm guns (T-26).
                  In fact, the 50 mm Pz.III KwK39 gun exceeded the 76 mm T-34 F-34 gun in armor-piercing, but slightly inferior to it in OS fragmentation (O-350A).

                  It was a question of a captured tank in a Polish company, which means it was a maxim Pz.III Ausf.F. He had a gun 37.
                2. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
                  Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 25 June 2019 16: 18
                  0
                  In fact, the 50 mm Pz.III KwK39 gun exceeded the 76 mm T-34 F-34 gun in armor-piercing, but slightly inferior to it in OS fragmentation (O-350A).

                  Something looked at the KwK39 armor-piercing armor table and 76 guns, so 76 is slightly better, and you need to understand that the deliveries of triples with KwK39 began in December 41. And it is weak to believe that the high-explosive effect of a 50 mm shell is almost the same as 76 mm, at 76 three times more explosives can be placed.
                  1. semsemch Offline semsemch
                    semsemch 25 June 2019 16: 55
                    -2
                    Quote: Oleg Rambover
                    about a captured tank in a Polish company, then it was a maxim Pz.III Ausf.F. He had a gun 37.

                    And maybe about the Pz.III purchased from the Germans with the 50 mm KwK38 gun before the war.
                    And in general, what is the point of talking about the Pz.III with a 37 mm cannon if they were almost gone in 1941? Their release was stopped in June 1940.

                    Quote: Oleg Rambover
                    Something looked at the KwK39 armor penetration armor table and 76 guns, so 76 is slightly better

                    And you look at normal tables, but not tables in RuNet.
                    For starters, due to the lack of gunpowder, the s / s of the Soviet cannon shells was far from the passport. The same 76 mm BBS instead of 655-662 m / s (according to the passport and depending on the model) actually accelerated to a maximum of 630-640 m / s. Etc.
                    The quality of the shells themselves left much to be desired.
                    The composition of the explosives and the metal of the general physical structure and the operating system were also completely different from what was written about in the NSD.
                    In fact, in RuNet are given the performance characteristics of Soviet weapons of PEACE TIME. In wartime, the same weapon had ALL OTHER performance characteristics.

                    Quote: Oleg Rambover
                    it is hard to believe that the high-explosive effect of a 50 mm shell is almost the same as 76 mm, 76 can be placed three times as much explosives.

                    In fact, I wrote that the fragmentation of the Soviet 76 mm OS was equivalent to the fragmentation of the 57 mm OFS Anglo-Saxons. And the fragmentation of the German 50 mm OFS was slightly worse.
                    5.0 cm Sprgr. 38 contained 170 g of TNT, and 76 mm of O-350A 490 g of Amatol A-80 or A-90 with TNT stopper.
                    490 g. Of TNT with TNT, depending on the brand of amatol, gave the TNT equivalent of about 260-285 g of TNT. But the German OFS weighed 1,82 kg, and the Soviet OS weighed 6,21 kg. Therefore, due to the fact that the mass of the torn metal at 76 mm OS was significantly greater, its efficiency was slightly lower. And it was approximately equal to the effectiveness of the 57 mm OFS of the Anglo-Saxons.
                    OFS 6 powder Mark XT weighed 2,98 kg and contained 186 g of TNT.
                    In addition, in the USSR, instead of steel, cast iron was used. Since steel was not enough for the shells.
          2. gorbunov.vladisl (Vlad Dudnik) 23 June 2019 10: 00
            +3
            Pavlov was in favor of having a new tank. But....

            Pavlov did not mind, on the contrary, he pushed the T-50 light tank with all his might.

            You argue in vain. The T-50 has a 45 mm gun. And Pavlov insisted, relying on the experience of fighting in Spain, namely on the 76-mm gun for the new tank. And the terms of reference for the development of a new tank, precisely under Pavlov, was drawn up. And it was on the basis of this technical task that the T-34 turned out.
            Perhaps not directly, but indirectly Pavlov was precisely involved in the appearance of the T-34.
            1. Bakht Offline Bakht
              Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 23 June 2019 10: 48
              +1
              Indirectly, everyone is involved. And Pavlov and Stalin and Koshkin. An application for a new tank Pavlov signed. It's right. And even he flew the T-34 in trials. And he demanded tanks with a flat projectile trajectory. That is 76 mm. And he also signed the T-34 tank unreliability act.
              I am not an expert, but I’m interested in another moment in tank building. Spring 1941 Hitler insists on a long-barreled gun with a high initial velocity of the projectile. But the armament control puts a short stump on the new tanks. 50 tanks at the request of Hitler returned to the plants. This case is widely covered in the literature (in the same Guderian). A question that Guderian did not answer. Why did the Arms Department resist the establishment of long-barreled guns? There were no fools or traitors sitting there.
              Then we can simulate Pavlov's requirements. Why did he want a big caliber on the tank. And what kind of tank did Pavlov want?
              1. semsemch Offline semsemch
                semsemch 24 June 2019 14: 35
                -1
                Quote: Bakht
                And he demanded tanks with a flat projectile trajectory. That is 76 mm.

                "Flat trajectory of the projectile" and 76 mm are not synonymous.
                By increasing the caliber, they tried to achieve the OFS fragmentation acceptable for tanks with such a suspension. And in peacetime, everything looked pretty good.
                But in wartime, instead of ammunition, ersatz was used. Therefore, the Soviet TTX guns were completely crappy.
                No, well, why, to guess something about the fact that during the war there will not be enough TNT and gunpowder, this was not possible.

                Quote: Bakht
                Spring 1941 Hitler insists on a long-barreled gun with a high initial velocity of the projectile. But the armament control puts a short stump on the new tanks.

                This probably means the history of replacing the 50 mm KwK 38 L / 42 with the 50 mm KwK 39 L / 60 in the Pz.III.
                To begin with, calling the L / 42 cannon a "stump" is overkill.
                Then, make the cannon and the cartridge for it so that, with an enlarged N / s projectile, it could still shoot a serial 50-mm fragmentation grenade, sample 38 5.0 cm Sprgr. 38, this is art.
                In general, German guns are masterpieces of design skill.

                Quote: Bakht
                Why did the Arms Department resist the establishment of long-barreled guns?

                Because they could not be developed for a long time. Did not work.
          3. semsemch Offline semsemch
            semsemch 24 June 2019 13: 59
            0
            Quote: Bakht
            The T-34 tank was developed on an initiative basis at the Kharkov Tank.

            The T-34 tank was developed in Moscow, at ABTU under the general supervision of Pavlov. In Kharkov, the A-20 tank was developed. A A-32 and T-34, this is a deep alteration of the A-20.
            And here you, "academician", do not know.
            In the "Soviet language" "on an initiative basis" meant that the author of the product was an undesirable person. So the story went that Koshkin (a professional party functioner, but not an engineer) "developed the T-34 on an initiative basis."
            A-20 made by Dick. Adolf, if that. It is not clear only a German or a Jew. He was then repressed and imprisoned for 10 years.
            But the A-32, and then the T-34 was already made in Moscow (by the hands of Kharkiv). They did it under the guidance of Pavlov.
            But unfinished. Voroshilov intervened and stated that it was impossible to make a normal tank in Kharkov. Weak mattehbaza. Therefore, they will do what they can do. Prefabricated T-34.
            Pavlov insisted on the modernization of the KhPZ and the release of a normal tank (T-34M, or at least the T-34T), but got a kick in the ass, after which he ended up in Minsk, the commander of the ZOV.

            Quote: Bakht
            Koshkin himself had to drive two tanks to Moscow for a show.

            I had to drive because the sea trials did not have time. And they decided to wind the mileage in this way.
            But the decision about this was also made in Moscow, at ABTU. At the same time, one tank in the direction of travel failed and it was already being transported by rail.

            Quote: Bakht
            T-34 saved Voroshilov.

            "Spas" is an inappropriate word.

            Quote: Bakht
            Pavlov did not mind, on the contrary, he pushed the T-50 light tank with all his might.

            Pavlov did not "push through" anything of the kind.
            T-50, this is a success development tank. When the A-20 (success development tank) decided to convert into the T-34 (infantry escort tank) the Leningrad T-126SP (infantry support tank) decided to convert into a success development tank (instead of the A-20). So the T-50 appeared.
            There were no light, medium and heavy tanks in the USSR before the war. There was another classification of BTT.

            Quote: Bakht
            In April, through the efforts of the same "backward" Voroshilov

            Why "retarded" in quotation marks? Voroshilov was indeed a dubious character.
            It is enough to recall how he pushed into the series without tests the tank of his son-in-law Kotin, KV. Which then, in the army, began to pour in for parts. But the tank was potentially quite good. It would be tested and corrected. But Voroshilov was fine and so. The result is known.

            Quote: Bakht
            Pavlov is already the commander of the ZAPOVO. But it has a direct relation to tanks.

            The commander of the ZOV was not related to tanks. He could only express his opinion.
      2. semsemch Offline semsemch
        semsemch 24 June 2019 13: 36
        0
        Quote: Bakht
        It seems that Pavlov wanted to stop the production of the T-34 and produce the BT-7. Voroshilov insisted on the release of the T-34.

        Pavlov objected to the release of the T-34 in the form in which it was produced. Those. in the form of a semi-finished product.
    2. semsemch Offline semsemch
      semsemch 24 June 2019 13: 35
      -1
      Quote: Oleg Rambover
      and the corps showed their inefficiency just in the summer of 41

      It's okay, then they were transformed into tank armies.

      Quote: Oleg Rambover
      As I understand it, Stalin was a bad leader

      And what would you like from the creator and leader of the pre-revolutionary still (before the March-February 1917 revolution) gang of robbers-raiders "who worked in the wet"? Those. from the creator and leader of a gang of robber-killers. Moreover, without secondary education.
      1. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
        Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 25 June 2019 12: 53
        +1
        Quote: semsemch
        It's okay, then they were transformed into tank armies.

        The mechanized corps was disbanded in August-September 41, tank armies appeared later.

        Quote: semsemch
        And what would you like from the creator and leader of the pre-revolutionary still (before the March-February 1917 revolution) gang of robbers-raiders "who worked in the wet"? Those. from the creator and leader of a gang of robber-killers. Moreover, without secondary education.

        I don’t want anything, I’m just touched by the apologists of the formula "good tsar, bad boyars." And they will twist this way and that to justify Joseph, and it is so pleasant to poke them into the inconsistency of their arguments.
        1. semsemch Offline semsemch
          semsemch 25 June 2019 17: 00
          -2
          Quote: Oleg Rambover
          The mechanized corps was disbanded in August-September 41, tank armies appeared later.

          And so it gradually transformed. Through disbandment and subsequent awareness.
  • Nikolay Offline Nikolay
    Nikolay (Nikolai) 22 June 2019 18: 39
    +4
    Woe is the author. Pavlov D.G. never was the chief of the General Staff and was never Deputy People's Commissar of Defense. The subject of his opus must be known, and not splash with emotions.
  • Rinat Offline Rinat
    Rinat (Rinat) 22 June 2019 23: 50
    +4
    I agree with the author. The main and decisive reason for the series of disasters at the beginning of the war is the direct betrayal and sabotage of a group of generals in the Red Army. Glory to God, Stalin cleared the army and party ranks in 37-38, reducing the critical number of enemies of the people in them.
    1. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
      Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 23 June 2019 01: 07
      -1
      It seems that they are not cleaning. Of the 767 senior commanders for 36 years from the brigade commander and above, 37 were shot in the years 36-412. Or did you have to let everyone under the knife? Joseph Vissarionovich specially selected traitors in the top leadership of the Red Army?
    2. semsemch Offline semsemch
      semsemch 24 June 2019 14: 37
      -2
      Quote: Rinat
      Glory to God, Stalin cleared the army and party ranks in 37-38

      Hope that one day no one will "clean up" you and your loved ones in the same way. Otherwise, you will be very upset.
  • steelmaker Offline steelmaker
    steelmaker 23 June 2019 09: 29
    +1
    This should have been written about 60 years earlier. There was betrayal! And the fact that such articles began to appear only after the collapse of the USSR, says that the traitors were at the very top! And Serdyukov, what should you call his actions? And Zhukov, as the chief of the general staff, also turns out "not white and not fluffy"?
    1. gorbunov.vladisl (Vlad Dudnik) 23 June 2019 10: 13
      +4
      And the fact that such articles began to appear only after the collapse of the USSR, says that the traitors were at the very top!

      I agree with you. I believe in the version of betrayal. Unfortunately, no one has conducted official investigations.
      And the fact that the traitors were including at the very top, there is no doubt about it. And they survived the war. After all, someone also accepted into the party such as Gorbachev and Yeltsin? And then he moved them to the top.
      1. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
        Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 23 June 2019 12: 37
        +1
        Thank God that they did not think of 41 to look for traitors in the leadership of the Red Army. The army was not in the best condition anyway, and if it had begun to find traitors among the top command staff, it could have collapsed altogether.
        1. gorbunov.vladisl (Vlad Dudnik) 24 June 2019 05: 38
          +3
          ... and if they began to find traitors among the highest command staff, it could fall apart altogether.

          Honestly, this is not an unambiguous question. I read a lot in childhood memories (memoirs) of war veterans. So for myself I concluded. Almost until the winter of 1941, the entire situation at the front was settled by regimental and divisional units. Everything that was adopted above led either to boilers or to breakthroughs into the operational space. The same Pavlov. I do not consider him a traitor. His fate was decided by his mistakes as a front commander.
          1. Oleg Rambover Offline Oleg Rambover
            Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 25 June 2019 12: 58
            0
            What is there ambiguous? If ordinary and junior command personnel were informed that the top leadership was traitors, then the orders, and so on through the pencolod, were completely stopped to be executed.
    2. semsemch Offline semsemch
      semsemch 24 June 2019 14: 38
      -2
      Quote: steel maker
      There was a betrayal!

      For 70 years, traitors and pests prevented the party from making the Soviet people happy.

      As soon as Lenin died, it turned out that the second person in the party, Comrade Trotsky, was a traitor. Kamenev, Zinoviev, Bukharin and Stalin overthrew Trotsky and expelled from the USSR.

      But after a couple of years it turned out that Kamenev, Zinoviev and Bukharin are also enemies and pests. Then the valiant comrade Yezhov shot them.

      But after a couple of years it turned out that Yezhov was not a comrade, but an ordinary traitor and an enemy agent. And Yezhov shot Beria.

      After the death of Stalin, everyone realized that Beria was also a traitor. Then Zhukov overthrew and shot Beria.
      But soon Khrushchev learned that Zhukov was an enemy and a conspirator. And sent Zhukov to exile. And a little later it was revealed that Stalin himself was an enemy, a pest and a traitor. And with it, and most of the Politburo. Then Stalin was taken out of the mausoleum, and the political bureau and Shepilov, who joined them, were dispersed by honest party members, led by Khrushchev.

      Several years passed and it turned out that Khrushchev was a voluntarist, a rogue, an adventurer and an enemy. Then Brezhnev sent Khrushchev to retire.

      Soon Brezhnev died, and it turned out that he was a senile, a pest and a cause of stagnation.

      Then there were two senility, which no one had time to remember, because they died like flies.

      But then a young, energetic Gorbachev came to power. And it turned out that the whole party was a party of pests and enemies, but he will correct everything now.

      It was then that the USSR collapsed. And Gorbachev turned out to be an enemy and a traitor.

      Oh these enemies. But if it weren’t for them, then they would definitely have built communism!
  • Rusa Offline Rusa
    Rusa 23 June 2019 13: 19
    +1
    Layered both that, and another ...
    Obviously there were: criminal negligence and irresponsibility, incompetence, miscalculations and betrayal.
  • healthy lucky Offline healthy lucky
    healthy lucky (lucky healthy) 23 June 2019 16: 11
    -2
    Surpassing Germany by 2.5 times in human resources, the USSR began the call of Eighteen young men at the same time as Germany in 1944.
    It can be BACKED that the Red Army would have defeated Germany without a SECOND front.
    It’s just not clear if ALL 30 German tank and 17 motorized divisions and ALL Luftwaffe aviation were on the Vistula and the Danube, with whom would Zhukov and Konev storm Berlin in 1945, with FIFTEEN ???
    In tanks on June 22, the Germans were inferior to the Red Army in the ratio of 1: 5, in airplanes - 1: 6,7, in artillery - 1: 8, really surpassing the Red Army only in communications.
    To win, it was necessary to destroy 30 million Russian people, but this, as always, worried the leader very little. “During collectivization, we lost more,” he brushed aside Churchill when he tried to come out with condolences over such monstrous losses of the USSR.
    1. Bakht Offline Bakht
      Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 23 June 2019 17: 26
      +1
      Which country was able to defeat Germany? Maybe France or Poland? They preferred to give up. France decided that it was not necessary to lose people and that it was better to lie under Hitler.
      When writing something, offer an aternative. The alternative was surrender. Do you propose to follow the path of France?
      1. semsemch Offline semsemch
        semsemch 24 June 2019 14: 53
        -4
        Quote: Bakht
        France decided that it was not necessary to lose people and that it was better to lie under Hitler.

        And after all, representatives of the "Free French" agreed with this some time after the war. Petain is still in the Gallery of Fame.

        Quote: Bakht
        The alternative was surrender. Suggest to follow the path of France?

        Why not? For the inhabitants of the USSR, this could be a good option. And for the Bolsheviks, this option would be like death (tea is not the national elite of France). Therefore, they did not choose this option. And they decided to sell the Soviet "mobressurs" to the Anglo-Saxons. For cannon fodder. For bonuses and nice things for myself.
        Those. The international elite of the USSR did exactly what France's national elite refused to do.
        Got the difference between "national" and "international", right?
    2. semsemch Offline semsemch
      semsemch 24 June 2019 14: 46
      -3
      Quote: the lucky one is healthy
      The USSR began the call of Eighteen Young Men at the same time as Germany in 1944.

      In fact, in the fall of 1944, the USSR began conscription into the army of SIXTEEN.
      Seventeen began to be called up in the fall of 1943.

      Quote: the lucky one is healthy
      To win, it was necessary to destroy 30 million Russian people,

      Full of you.
      Where did so many Russians come from in the USSR in the 40s? Their Bolsheviks slaughtered and slaughtered all the time since January 1918.
      According to my calculations, during WW2 in the USSR there were no more than 1 million people.
      As for the losses of the USSR, according to data declassified in 2017 by the State Planning Committee of the USSR, direct losses of the USSR amounted to 42 million people. And another 11 million people accounted for indirect losses.

      Quote: the lucky one is healthy
      “With collectivization, we lost more”

      In fact, of course, a lie. Most lost during WW2. For a very short period of time and 1/5 of the pre-war population of the USSR.
  • Conn Offline Conn
    Conn (Conn) 23 June 2019 19: 06
    -2
    Zhukov put his hands to the blockade of Leningrad, not a little less than Pavlov to the defeat of our troops in the first days of the war, and his subsequent "exploits" led to the encirclement of 1,5 million soldiers and to huge losses of our troops during the storming of Berlin, so that this butcher with a mustached schizophrenic was burned in the fire of war by the Russian people, who will never recover from such a meat grinder!
    1. Bakht Offline Bakht
      Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 23 June 2019 20: 06
      +1
      "Chatting is not to roll bags"
    2. Rusa Offline Rusa
      Rusa 23 June 2019 23: 12
      0
      Conn is not necessary to write nonsense.
      Your propaganda does not roll here.
    3. semsemch Offline semsemch
      semsemch 24 June 2019 15: 06
      -4
      Quote: Conn
      the butcher with the Mustachioed schizophrenic burned the Russian people in the fire of war,

      Do not exaggerate. Representatives of the Russian nation (the Russian people never existed and does not exist to this day, unlike the "Soviet people", for example) in Russia / USSR were exterminated even before WW2. First, during the massacre organized by the Bolsheviks, which they called the "Civil War". And then during the "purges" of the 20s and 30s. By the 40th year, only traces of Russians remained in the USSR.
      Therefore, during the war, representatives of the "population of the USSR" were killed most often.

      Quote: Conn
      who will now never recover from such a meat grinder!

      Well yes. After the reactionary creeping coup of October 1917, January 1918 and subsequent events, Russia lost its status of a "separate civilization." And turned into "one of". Yes, the population is large, but it does not pull on the "great" one. There are not enough numbers.
      Formally, the Bolsheviks destroyed Russia. The USSR after 1945 and the Russian Federation, this is not Russia. In the sense that was put into the term "Russia" earlier. Those. it is no longer a separate civilization. There is not enough population in the required amount.
  • bonifacius Offline bonifacius
    bonifacius (Alex) 23 June 2019 20: 19
    +1
    The same Pavlov during the investigation told not only about his criminal orders on the eve of the war and in its first days. He, for example, told how, while still being the chief of the General Staff and the deputy People’s Commissar of Defense, he participated in the falsification of the Soviet mobilization plan and the like ...... [/ i] [i] ... Just order now to do with Pavlov’s testimony, who, as a result of the investigation, told about his conversations with another rather murky character - army general (later marshal) Kirill Meretskov .....

    I think you will agree that argumentation such as "showed in the investigation" is not convincing. I think that if the investigation itself lasted a couple more months, then the suspect Pavlov would probably show how he personally, together with his entire staff, dug a tunnel from Minsk towards foggy Albion with the aim of assassinating Comrade Stalin.

    Now about the planes. According to him

    On the evening of June 21, I received an order to remove all weapons and ammunition from the aircraft and to hand them over to the warehouses.

    The order came from the commander of the district troops and it should be carried out strictly.

    And where is the order itself ??? Or maybe the order was passed over the phone? And why the commander of the district, and not from the commander of the district air force? Everything is somehow muddy and not convincing. Hardly a betrayal. Incompetence is more believable.
  • DPN Offline DPN
    DPN (DPN) 23 June 2019 22: 08
    0
    This article can be fully transferred to the end of the 80s and the beginning of the 90s, the end of the USSR is a confirmation of this.
  • semsemch Offline semsemch
    semsemch 24 June 2019 01: 50
    -1
    The thought of betrayal did not leave ... "

    This thought does not leave even in the most fat years. What to say about years of hard times?

    the treacherous attack on him by Nazi Germany

    Treacherous? What is it like?
    In fact, the German ambassador appeared at the Foreign Ministry with a task of special importance between 2:30 and 3:00 at night. Those. BEFORE the start of hostilities. This is a documented fact.
    But Molotov received him only at 5:30 in the morning, already AFTER the outbreak of hostilities. This is also a documented fact.
    It turns out that the rolls had to move faster.

    and her many allies

    Italy, Hungary, Slovakia, Romania, Finland. Somehow, all this does not appeal to "numerous allies".
    Not all Axis countries participated in the aggression. Bulgaria and Japan did NOT participate in the aggression.

    and their conscious betrayal, betrayal of their homeland, has already been voiced, and more than once.

    The stupid always around treason.

    The frontier post No. 1 under the command of Alexander Sivachev was taken by the Nazis after 12 hours of fierce battle, on the field of which three German tanks remained dead and lay two corpses of "superhuman" corpses, the conquest of Russia for which ended without starting.

    For lovers of such tales, I remind you that the border guards had at their disposal only light small arms. Since they were not intended to be used for fighting (any) at all.
    Therefore, three tanks simply could not die, there was nothing to set fire to.
    As for the 60 dead Germans, I doubt very much. The outpost is a separate company. A company that had previously undergone massive shelling. You can believe in 10 dead Germans.
    You can even believe in 15 dead Germans.
    But the 60 dead Germans can be trusted only by being very gullible.

    did his subordinates at the front lines meet the enemy not with open mittens, but having well-equipped positions - with full-profile trenches, firing points and minefields?

    What nonsense. The border guards had nothing of the kind.

    The result - on June 22, it was precisely the sailors who suffered practically no losses.

    Especially considering that nobody attacked the RKKF ships that night.

    on June 25, soldiers of the Danube military flotilla attacked Hitler's Romanian allies on their territory, capturing the city of Kilik-Veke and destroying hundreds of enemy soldiers and officers, losing only 5 people killed!

    Would the author be approximately interested in the ratio of casualties in that war?
    Looks like no. Therefore, he writes such nonsense.

    And who bombed Berlin in August 1941? Again - naval aviation, not army aviation, which, alas, by that time had practically ceased to exist

    81 long-range aviation division. The most land-based.

    Perhaps we will get an answer to this question by listening to another participant in those events - retired lieutenant general Dolgushin, who served in the air regiment deployed in the Grodno region in those days. According to him, "in the evening of June 21, I received an order to remove all weapons and ammunition from the aircraft and to hand them over to the warehouses." The order came from the commander of the district troops and it should be carried out strictly. The unsuccessful attempt to return everything to the place, undertaken the next morning, could no longer help anything - German bombs exploded one after the other.

    Read all sorts of nonsense less. You’ll be healthier.
    The author never served in the army. He does not know that on Saturday after lunch in the army until Monday is a day off. Therefore, the order that came on Saturday evening (June 21) until Monday (June 23) will not be executed. There is simply no one to carry it out.
    It could be executed ONLY only in case of an alarm. But just about such an event on Saturday, June 21, nothing is known. Yes, and in the case of an announcement on Saturday evening, alarms until Sunday morning would still not be able to cope.
    Therefore Dolgushin "remembered" something wrong.

    The cleaning was total

    Cleaning is when you drink worm medicine. And in this case, people were shot in batches. This is not a purge, this is a massacre.

    All this nightmare has very specific culprits. And the most important of them is the commander of the Western Military District, Army General Dmitry Pavlov.

    No, the culprit of all this is "socialism". And the owner of the USSR, Dzhugashvili.

    I really wanted Lysy

    It’s amazing. Khrushchev created the missile industry in the USSR. And thereby laid the foundation for some security of the USSR.
    Dzhugashvili emphasized bombers. Which even theoretically could not reach the USA.
    Khrushchev adopted the 20-year development program for Siberia and the oil and gas sector of the USSR. The results of this program feed the population of the Russian Federation to this day.
    And in the end he is "Bald".

    Pavlov met the beginning of the war ... lounging in a box at a performance in the Minsk House of Officers.

    The rear cities were bombed at 3:30 in the morning. The offensive at the border began at 4:00.
    What other performance at this time of day?

    It was they who, in time, "fell to the bottom" and sat out the "great purge" of 1937

    It is time to institute criminal prosecution for acquitting the mass executions of 1937-38.
    And I wish the author and his family and friends not to get under any "purge".

    The same Pavlov during the investigation told not only about his criminal orders on the eve of the war and in its first days.

    And you in the NKVD would also tell a lot of things. For example, they would remember how the whole family prepared an assassination attempt on Dzhugashvili and Beria. They would have easily remembered.

    There is no doubt - without Stalin's decisive action in 1937, the Great Patriotic War could have turned out to be many times more terrible defeats and losses for our country.

    All the worst that could happen, it happened. Nothing more terrible could happen.
  • riwas Offline riwas
    riwas (riwas) 24 June 2019 07: 22
    +2
    On NTV a documentary film "How we screwed up the war" was shown. The film is based on recently declassified archival documents and testimonies from participants in the events. Actually, they were only shown in this film. They were accompanied by only small comments from a few historians. This film once again showed that Russia is a country with an unpredictable past.

    A few days before its start, on their own initiative, Stalin and Beria conducted aerial reconnaissance and were confident that the war would begin any day. Historians have found one of the pilots who conducted this reconnaissance. According to him - there was no doubt - the war was about to begin. This confidence was confirmed by the numerous German army groups concentrated on the border, which he reflected in his reports, which were delivered directly to Stalin in Moscow. Stalin immediately issued documents on putting the army and navy on alert. So this war was not unexpected for Stalin. But only border troops complied with this order, and the army and navy ignored it! Why!?

    To find out, the film shows several episodes from the life of our army on the eve of the war:

    Counterintelligence reported to Stalin that our combat aircraft at the border airfields are "in line" in the middle of the airfield without camouflage paint and without camouflage at all. An order is issued immediately: to disperse and camouflage the planes. After a while, Beria reports to Stalin: the order has not been fulfilled. A second similar order is issued. The result is the same. An eyewitness who retreated through one of these airfields says that he saw hundreds of charred carcasses of our aircraft, standing "in a line" in the middle of the airfield.

    Rust had a predecessor. Hitler, in order to check our air defense, organized the passage of a German aircraft, without warning, through the entire European part of the USSR to Moscow. The aircraft was timely detected by air defense, but due to a damaged telephone cable (it was damaged by ours from the air defense the day before) there was no report to Moscow and accordingly no measures were taken. Three days debated who should repair the cable: airfield or air defense services, although the cable repair time is about 5 minutes.

    The aircraft fuel depots for the North were located in the Caucasus, and the arms depots of the ground forces directly on the border, far from their troops.

    Betrayal? No, worse! Bureaucracy. Corruption inherited from Lenin's NEP, when state officials "merged" with business. There was no army as such, no "war machine". There was anarchy, confusion, frank non-professionalism and tyranny of the commanders. And the German "war machine" ran like clockwork. The Germans were well aware that there are no "trifles" in military matters and they planned everything, and then meticulously carried it out, which surprised our people, accustomed to the mess, a lot.

    So, the "scribble" from Moscow was postponed until Monday, as there was an important event for the weekend - summer cottages.
    But what about the army, Admiral Kuznetsov, who was always given as an example, wrote in his memoirs that he did not betray the importance of the order, but declared a combat alert, only when bombs began to break in the central square of Sevastopol.

    The German attack did not cause, but only "highlighted" the chaos that was already in our army. Only Zhukov was able to bring relative order. And this is his main merit. Zhukov is condemned that the innocent suffered, but in that shortage of time it could not be otherwise.

    It was this mess in the army, and not a surprise attack, that led to millions of victims in the early years of the war. And Stalin is to blame for this.

    Another example, from the book by D.N. Bolotin "Soviet Small Arms" (Voinizdat, 1990). Intelligence reported to Stalin that all the armies of the world are armed with machine guns, and the experience of Spain has shown that rifle units need anti-tank weapons.
    In 1939, a 14,5 mm Rukovishnikov anti-tank rifle was developed, and in 1940 a 7,62 mm Degtyarev assault rifle (PPD) was developed, and a 57 mm anti-tank gun was developed in full swing. But another opinion was shared by the head of GAU G.I. Sandpiper. He believed that the West was not a decree for us, the machine gun was a police weapon, we did not need anti-tank rifles and guns. Stalin repeatedly tried to convince him, but Kulik was not adored. In February 1939, the PPD were withdrawn from production and armaments, withdrawn from the troops. On August 26, 1940, anti-tank rifles were withdrawn from service. At the beginning of 1940, the question was raised about stopping the production of 45-76 mm artillery ...
    The aircraft designer Yakovlev in his book "The Purpose of Life" quotes an excerpt from his conversation with Stalin:
    "Do you know that none other than the leaders of our military department were against the introduction of machine guns in the army and stubbornly held on to the 1891 model rifle? You do not believe, you smile, but this is a fact, and I had to stubbornly fight the marshal before the war Kulik on this issue. "
    1. Bakht Offline Bakht
      Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 24 June 2019 10: 16
      0
      What is the difference between an assault rifle, a PPD and a rifle?
      1. semsemch Offline semsemch
        semsemch 24 June 2019 17: 16
        -2
        Quote: Bakht
        What is the difference between an assault rifle, a PPD and a rifle?

        Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooobooooooooah
      2. Bakht Offline Bakht
        Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 24 June 2019 20: 41
        +1
        There was no response. Well, it happens.
        In fact, Marshal Kulik was both right and wrong. That happens. The Germans did not plan and did not arm their infantry with machine guns without exception. Before the war, discussions were held and concluded. The PP has a range of effective fire of up to 200 m. This is ideal. In a real battle, no more than 100 meters. They made a decision - the PP will be armed with special forces, paratroopers and armored vehicles crews. The bulk of the infantry is armed with rifles with a range of effective fire up to 400-600 meters. A machine gun in all armies was considered as a melee weapon up to 100 meters.
        In the Red Army, the SVT was adopted as the basis. Unfortunately, during actual operation in the army, both commanders and soldiers reacted negatively to the rifle. Difficult to maintain, requires careful maintenance, accurate shooting requires technical knowledge. It was necessary to clean almost 2-3 times a day. Otherwise, failures are possible.
        PPD was difficult to manufacture and expensive. Under 1000 rubles apiece. Therefore, it was adopted by the PPSh. Much cheaper, easier to manufacture, almost uptime. It was urgent to equip the army with cheap and massive weapons. And PPD and PPSh was made under the patron TT. Good enough cartridge. In any case, he served around the world for almost half a century. SVT has become a favorite weapon of snipers (up to 1000 meters accurate battle).
        Kulik, like the Germans, believed that when the PP army was armed, the bulk of the infantry was switched off from combat at distances of over 100-200 meters. Therefore, I wanted an automatic rifle. Like the Germans, who by 1943 created an assault rifle. PPSh is the weapon of the poor for the mass army. In a real war in the USSR, PPSh was stamped. And after the war they began to make AK-47 chambered for 7,62 (automatic). With a range of effective fire of 400 meters. That is the whole background of the question. The basis of decision-making was technological, simplicity and mass. In close combat, the PPSh is better; at long distances, a rifle should be preferred.
        1. semsemch Offline semsemch
          semsemch 24 June 2019 23: 02
          -2
          Quote: Bakht
          PP has a range of effective fire up to 200 m.

          This is empty talk. The standard DEP for normal PP is 100 m.

          Quote: Bakht
          The bulk of the infantry is armed with rifles with a range of effective fire up to 400-600 meters.

          DEP of self-loading and magazine main infantry weapons 400 m (not less). But before, they often made about 600 m. In order to cover the maxman with one cartridge.

          Quote: Bakht
          In the Red Army, the SVT was adopted as the basis. Unfortunately, during actual operation in the army, both commanders and soldiers reacted negatively to the rifle. Difficult to maintain, requires careful maintenance, accurate shooting requires technical knowledge. It was necessary to clean almost 2-3 times a day. Otherwise, failures are possible.

          Quote: Bakht
          In the Red Army, the SVT was adopted as the basis. Unfortunately, during actual operation in the army, both commanders and soldiers reacted negatively to the rifle. Difficult to maintain, requires careful maintenance, accurate shooting requires technical knowledge. It was necessary to clean almost 2-3 times a day. Otherwise, failures are possible.

          SVT is a hunting rifle. It was possible to fight with it. But expensive. Because to achieve reliability, the Red Army set the gas regulator to the maximum. Why SVT served flawlessly, but not for long. Because in this mode of operation, the shutter smashed the receiver with its backward movement. And moving forward, chamber. Withstood this mode of operation of the CBT for long.

          Quote: Bakht
          It was urgent to equip the army with cheap and massive weapons. And PPD and PPSh was made under the patron TT. Good enough cartridge.

          Weapons should be first and foremost good. With suitable performance characteristics. With this, the Soviet weapons were extremely bad. Rescued Russian weapons, three-ruler and Maxim.
          Cartridge TT was rubbish for the army. No one in the world has ever used it, but the cartridge itself is the result of the sanctions that were imposed on Germany after WW1. Illiterate Bolsheviks from the pre-Nazi Germans bought Mauser Bolo (complete rubbish). And then they bought a cartridge factory for the Mausers. So the cartridge 7,63x25 mm Mauser turned into a cartridge 7,62x25 mm TT. Both cartridges for the army were absolutely unsuitable.

          Quote: Bakht
          SVT has become a favorite weapon of snipers (up to 1000 meters accurate battle).

          Bullshit, of course. SVT was mainly used by women. It's just that SVT had a slightly weaker return than the three-ruler.

          Quote: Bakht
          Therefore, I wanted an automatic rifle.

          The Soviet automatic rifle was called the DP-27 light machine gun. Since they could not create their own handbrake in the USSR, they had to use this automatic rifle.

          Quote: Bakht
          Therefore, I wanted an automatic rifle. Like the Germans, who by 1943 created an assault rifle.

          An interesting transition from warm to soft.

          Quote: Bakht
          And after the war they began to make AK-47 chambered for 7,62 (automatic). With a range of effective fire of 400 meters.

          Nope. DEP of self-loading and magazine assault weapons 300 m. Learn materiel.

          Quote: Bakht
          In close combat, the PPSh is better; at long distances, a rifle should be preferred.

          If we talk about PPSh, then because of the bullshit cartridge of his electric power depot was only about 35 m.
          MP40 has a DEP of about 60 m. It is also small, but better than PPSh / PPS.
          Walls are about the same muck as the MP40.
          Very good was the Hungarian Danuvia. Especially model arr. 1943. But there was a jamb with logistics, he demanded the original ammunition. Since the pistol chambered for 9x25 mm Mauser the Hungarians did not have.
          But the best, this is of course the American Thompson. None of the army in the world had anything like this. Moreover, the post-war American Thompson (on a reinforced cartridge) is recognized as a more successful weapon for the army than assault rifles on an intermediate cartridge (7,62x39 mm, 7,92x33 mm and the like). Such Thomson began to change to M16A1 only in the 60s. Then, when all of his contemporaries from the time of WW2 everyone forgot to think.
    2. semsemch Offline semsemch
      semsemch 24 June 2019 17: 15
      -2
      Quote: riwas
      Intelligence informed Stalin - all the armies of the world are armed with machine guns,

      So the fool could not yet report back. Uma was clearly not a chamber.
      An assault rifle (actually a submachine gun) is an auxiliary military weapon. In the USSR, it was impossible to make a normal PP, because there was no normal cartridge for an army pistol. The "Soviet specialists" did not even approximately understand what it looked like. Moreover, all the time of existence of the USSR.
      For the same reason (there was no cartridge for an army pistol) there was no army pistol. TT and PM, this is not an army pistols, it is something like an advanced slingshot. Moreover, PM for the police, that's it.

      Quote: riwas
      He believed that the West is not a decree for us, the machine gun is a police weapon

      Sandpiper is not worth it. In the Red Army there was only a TT cartridge (the Nagan cartridge does not count at all). On such a cartridge you can’t make a normal army weapon. If you already had to make such a weapon, then you had to start with a cartridge. And do not sculpt hack on a TT cartridge.

      Stalin repeatedly tried to convince him, but Kulik was not adored.

      I just see the adherent Kulik and complaining about something asking Dzhugashvili.
      You somehow forgot that Dzhugashvili was the sole owner of the USSR. Including factories, humans and cockroaches. And Kulik was just part of his vast property.

      Quote: riwas
      In February 1939, the PPD were withdrawn from production and armaments, withdrawn from the troops.

      Because it was a frank UG.

      Quote: riwas
      On August 26, 1940, anti-tank rifles were withdrawn from service.

      And it was a frank UG.

      Quote: riwas
      At the beginning of 1940, the question was raised about stopping the production of 45-76 mm artillery ...

      The question was not raised, but this UG was removed from production in 1941.
      But there was one problem, in exchange for weapons nothing was accepted. Could not do anything worthwhile. Therefore, after the outbreak of war, the production of hydrocarbons had to be resumed. And this UG (there was nothing else, and the supply of arms under the Lend-Lease were not so significant) had to fight. Hence, including the victims.

      Quote: riwas
      Aircraft Designer Yakovlev

      The opinion of the aircraft designer Yakovlev about small arms from the book of his memoirs "How I Defeated the Germans with Stalin's Help" is very important for us.

      Quote: riwas
      the leaders of our military department, were against the introduction of machine guns in the army and stubbornly held on to the 1891 model rifle?

      And they did it right. Because three-ruler, this is the main infantry infantry weapon. And PP, this is an auxiliary weapon. No PP will ever replace the main infantry weapon (even one such as the three-ruler).
      Those. Kulik understood at least something in the rifleman. Yakovlev did not understand anything in it.
  • Sergey Latyshev Offline Sergey Latyshev
    Sergey Latyshev (Serge) 24 June 2019 09: 09
    -1
    Again, lies and fraud in the article.

    There is still no information about the terrible conspiracy of the military. There are sources of mass discontent with Voroshilov and obscene references - someone saw something .... in the Abwehr, for example.

    Heroes of the USSR Smushkevich, Loktionov, Rychagov. arrested long before the war. The famous "we fly on coffins"
    So blame them for failure - alas, the deadlines do not go.

    Part of the surviving repressed military after the 22nd had to be returned to the army ... and fought well, without betrayal.

    And who certainly then made a rustle? - So this is the elite of elites, like spiders in a bank ......

    Khrushchev, Zhukov, and other officials-Tskashniki ....
  • Nikolay Malyugin (Nikolai Malyugin) 13 September 2019 07: 30
    +2
    After such a disaster that occurred in early 1941, it is difficult to say anything. But there are still some corrections. According to Rychagov, not everything is so simple. He kept reporting that our aviation was the best in the world. Those who reported that it was necessary to build up defensive weapons, Voroshilov branded defeatists, with consequences.

    We will fight in a foreign territory.

    - this is the main slogan of Clement. Through terrible losses forced Zhukov to confess

    The Germans taught us to fight.

    In the war, a new galaxy of commanders was born. And it remains for us to pay tribute to those who died in the war.