Why it makes sense to resume production of Project 11356R frigates

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As it was promised, we will continue our discussions about dual-purpose border ships, which, if necessary, can be mobilized and begin to serve in the Russian Navy. There is certainty with the 3rd rank for the Coast Guard, but what about the 2nd?

Ships pretending to be "boats"


In September-October of this year, two patrol ships "Meishan" (2303) and "Xiushan" (2305) of the Type 818 of the PRC Coast Guard took part in the joint bilateral exercises with Russia "Pacific Patrol - 2024" and patrols in the northern part of the Pacific Ocean. The event itself is noteworthy, but domestic near-military Telegram channels and media drew attention to the Chinese border ships themselves and the path they were able to take.



Thus, Meishan and Xiushan left their permanent base in Zhoushan on September 13, 2024, and covered more than 35 nautical miles in 17 days, passing through the Sea of ​​Japan, the Sea of ​​Okhotsk, the Bering Sea, and the Chukchi Sea, and entering the Arctic Ocean. On September 000, 17, the detachment arrived in Vladivostok, where it took part in a joint Russian-Chinese exercise in Peter the Great Bay. Not bad for patrol ships of the PRC Coast Guard!

The seaworthiness of the Chinese border guards, which allows them to reach the Arctic Ocean, is due to the fact that they are de facto disarmed Type 054 frigates. This is currently the most common ocean-going ship in the PLA Navy, capable of carrying guided missile weapons. There are already 36 of them in service in the Chinese Navy, and another 4 were built for export to the Pakistan Navy.

It should be noted that for some reason the Chinese are very fond of classifying as "patrol boats" real combat ships with a displacement from a frigate to a cruiser. And this is not an exaggeration!

In particular, in 2007, two obsolete Type 053 frigates were transferred from the PLA Navy to the PRC Coast Guard, which were refurbished and renamed "boats" with numbers 1002 and 1003. For several years, they were the largest "boats" by displacement, until they were replaced by the so-called Type 718 "Haixun" boat, number 31101 "Pudong".

For reference: Haixun-01 has a full displacement of 5418 tons, a length of 128,6 meters, a maximum speed of 20 knots and a cruising range of 10 miles, on deck it carries a permanently based helicopter, equipment for refueling other ships at sea and rescue equipment. However, it did not remain the largest "boat" in the PRC Coast Guard for very long.

In 2017, a 12-ton monster named Coast Guard 000 was sent to patrol islands disputed by Beijing in the South China Sea. That’s bigger than a U.S. Ticonderoga-class guided missile cruiser! The Chinese “boat” carries a 3901mm rapid-fire naval gun, two short-range defensive guns, two anti-aircraft machine guns, a helipad, and a helicopter hangar at the stern.

It also has a sister ship in the project called "Zhongguo Haijing 2901" (Coast Guard 2901). It is easy to guess that if necessary, these two "boats" with a displacement from a frigate to a cruiser can be quickly re-armed and perform real combat missions, and not just patrol the waters and inspect violators. A ship the size of a missile cruiser is simply excessive for this.

"Mobilization frigate"


Returning to the topic of what 2nd rank ship could be equally useful in the near and far sea zones of both the Coast Guard and the Russian Navy, one inevitably comes to the conclusion that everything has long been thought up before us. Taking into account our geographical conditions and geopolitical neighbors, the most optimal of the realistic ones is the project of the 2nd rank patrol ship 11356 "Burevestnik" and its modifications.

Thus, for the needs of the KGB MChPV of the USSR, Project 11351 "Nerey" was developed on its basis, on which instead of the anti-submarine missile system, one 100-mm artillery mount AK-100 was installed, instead of the entire aft armament complex - a takeoff and landing pad with a hangar for a helicopter and 30-mm AK-630 machine guns with the Vympel control radar. The patrol ship was equipped with a new under-keel sonar "Platina-S" and a towed sonar "Bronza".

Until 2023, the last two surviving Nereus, the PSKR Dzerzhinsky and Orel, served as part of the Russian Coast Guard in the Far East. If necessary, after repairs, they could even be re-armed, turning them into decent anti-submarine frigates, and transferred to the Russian Navy in the Pacific Ocean. In April last year, they were both decommissioned.

As for full-fledged frigates, everything is even more interesting. As is known, on the basis of the Burevestnik, an export version of the Talwar-type frigate project 11356 was developed for the Indian Navy. However, due to delays in the implementation of the promising domestic frigate 22350, it was decided to modify the Indian project to meet the needs of the Black Sea Fleet, code 11356P.

However, of the planned six, only three frigates were built – Admiral Grigorovich, Admiral Essen and Admiral Makarov, while Admiral Butakov, Admiral Istomin and Admiral Kornilov were left without a power plant, which was produced in Ukraine, in Nikolaev. The unfinished Butakov and Istomin were sold to India, and the hull of Kornilov remained mothballed. It is not practical to make a fuss about import substitution of the power plant for the sake of the last “admiral”.

This series of frigates itself is rightly criticized for its lower armament compared not only to Project 22350, but even to its Indian counterpart 11356. In general, the history of the Burevestnik can be considered to have come to its logical conclusion. However, last year at the Army-2023 forum, the Northern Design Bureau presented an updated multi-purpose frigate of Project 11356, the model of which featured the Palash anti-aircraft missile system, which enhances its air defense system, and the Paket-NK anti-tank missile system, which expands its capabilities to combat enemy submarines, as well as more advanced electronic weapons.

In such a configuration, the Burevestnik could be in demand in the Black and Baltic Seas as an anti-submarine frigate in the Russian Navy, as well as a patrol ship on our harsh northern seas and in the Pacific Ocean. For such a series, it might make sense to consider adapting the power plant from the Project 22350 frigate to its smaller brother, the 11356, which would improve its tactical and technical characteristics and the degree of unification.
29 comments
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  1. +1
    21 October 2024 12: 49
    You can fantasize, of course.
    resume production of this, resume production of that... and then write detailed articles with performance characteristics, but was it worth it?
    They say they wanted the best, but it turned out...
  2. +1
    21 October 2024 13: 10
    if there is an unfinished hull, then it makes sense to finish it, but frigates and corvettes are not needed in closed seas in principle, neither in the Navy nor in the border service, they all need to be on the oceans, conducting SVO requires large expenses, and therefore I think that for the time being we should not start building new frigates and corvettes, and even more so start some new projects, when there is already a working project for a frigate for the Navy, and a corvette too, .... although it is possible in a few years after the break caused by SVO, when economic opportunities appear on the basis of 11356 to create some new frigate (an average between a corvette and a frigate) with the aim of closing the programs of current corvettes and frigates by that time may already be obsolete, and thus the creation and unification of a combat surface ship of the Navy PLO (patrol ship) of a single project .... but the program of submarines and drones and minesweepers must be continued despite SVO, it is necessary to set the task of especially creating an aircraft of the PLO be200, closing the mrk programs forever...
    1. +1
      21 October 2024 15: 50
      we need to set the task of creating a plane especially plo 200

      - the plane is actually 40 years old, maybe it’s worth thinking about a more recent carrier?
      1. +1
        21 October 2024 19: 51
        Hello, flying boats are produced in small series in the world and there is nothing better than the Be200 in the world now, of course, in 40 years I hope that improvements have been made, at least the engine is of a slightly different design, a domestic and import-substituted one has recently appeared, the potential of the Be200 has not yet been exhausted, as well as the older Il76, when preparing the Be200 series, it is advisable to modify the aircraft so that it is modern
        1. 0
          22 October 2024 07: 46
          Why do you need a flying boat as an ASW aircraft?
          Russia is not a small island state, the niche of the Be-200 in our time is firefighting and rescue aircraft
          1. 0
            22 October 2024 19: 24
            The flying boat has a number of advantages,
            1 can take off and land not only from an airfield, for example in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk
            2 can be used as a rescue or transport vessel in remote areas of coastal seas
            3 can hide from radars by landing on water
            4 can survive damage over water surface
            5 is not expensive compared to MC21 or Superjet100 or IL76, but they don't make TU 95 anymore and it is also more expensive than BE200
            1. 0
              23 October 2024 08: 58
              can take off and land not only from an airfield, for example in the Sea of ​​Okhotsk

              - Why? Landing at sea is always an additional risk.

              can be used as a rescue or transport vessel in remote areas of coastal seas

              - the PLO aircraft will not be able to perform these functions, there is no need to talk about quickly removable modules, we have already covered this

              can hide from radars by landing on water

              - And where will you hide from the satellites? And you won't hide from the AWACS radar if you land on the water, that's if you can. The sea and the ocean are not a river or a lake, you know, there's waves...

              can survive damage over water surface

              - very doubtful

              not expensive compared to ms21 or superjet100 or il76, but tu 95 is no longer made and it is also more expensive than be200

              - numbers to the studio
              1. 0
                23 October 2024 22: 03
                At the same time, the cost of the Be-200, according to 2020 data, is almost 3 billion rubles, so with regular operation the aircraft pays for itself well.

                https://dzen.ru/a/ZNRg9WvZxgZ4I-QX

                The cost of the new Russian MS-21 aircraft, to be delivered in 2028–2030, was 4,3–4,6 billion rubles. This was the price quoted by the State Transport Leasing Company at the end of 2022–beginning of 2023.

                Read more: http://www.irk.ru/news/20230908/airplane/

                At the beginning of 2012, the price of the Sukhoi SuperJet 100 rose to 35,4 million dollars (3.4 billion rubles) per aircraft, however, the SCAC stated that it was still fifteen percent cheaper than its analogues (even though the Superjet will apparently not be launched into production at all and will bet on the MS21)

                https://lenta.ru/lib/14212065/

                Unit cost ~ 5 billion rubles. Il-76MD-90A (2017)
                the choice is not great, the MC21 for 4 billion and the IL76 for 5 billion, and these planes require runways, of which you can count on your fingers in the north and Kamchatka, and there are rivers and lakes there, remember how the Tu154 was looking for a runway in the taiga to make an emergency landing, and accidentally found an abandoned runway?
                and the be200 costs only 3 billion and it doesn't necessarily have to land on water, but if it needs to, it will land on water, and in general, the restoration of the be200 series is also for the Ministry of Emergency Situations and for export, and the serial ones will be cheaper and also... it takes up less space at the airfield
                1. 0
                  23 October 2024 22: 45
                  with a budget of 40 billion we get 10 ms21 plo, or 14 be200 plo.... it is easier to hide be200 it is 32x32 meters, and ms21 34x36, but... be200 also hides along rivers, lakes and bays under a camouflage net, and ms21 is calculated by runways, of which there are few and it is necessarily near it
                  1. -1
                    24 October 2024 07: 34
                    At the same time, the cost of the Be-200, according to 2020 data, is almost 3 billion rubles.

                    - dollar exchange rate in 2020 and now? the difference is one and a half times

                    Be200 still hides along rivers, lakes and bays under a camouflage net

                    - thanks, I laughed, the Be-200 needs infrastructure no less than the SSZh-100 or MS-21
                    1. 0
                      24 October 2024 12: 28
                      Don't show your complete ignorance of the economic situation and your deep naivety! Do you really think that the dollar exchange rate really reflects the ratio of product costs? What naivety! And by the way, you didn't notice that... and the prices for SuperJet and Il-76 in general from 2012-2017, they also went up in price, and you don't get it? And you're laughing like a horse here, not understanding that in addition to infrastructure, there is freedom of basing, and infrastructure can be delivered anywhere by barges or trucks, and hidden in the forest, but it is impossible to deliver a runway anywhere, much less hide it, ...... and you write complete utter stupidity here that it is inappropriate to land on the water surface or save yourself by landing on the water...... and what is better, to land in the dense taiga and what will be left of you and the plane? remember how you will laugh when your head will hit the piss and birch trees, remembering the laughing Kachinsky when he was thrown onto a thick birch trunk, the trees knocked off all the wings of his plane.... but you think that it is inappropriate to land on the water... or should you land on the water, but sink because you have a civilian aircraft for concrete? in general, you have a complete lack of understanding and a lack of logic and rudeness,
                      1. -1
                        24 October 2024 12: 38
                        Don't show your complete ignorance of the economic situation and your deep naivety!

                        - Well, tell me more about the economic recovery. laughing

                        infrastructure can be delivered anywhere by barges or trucks and hidden in the forest

                        - Have you ever tried it?

                        there is freedom of basing

                        - And you call me naive? bully
                      2. 0
                        24 October 2024 12: 44
                        the rise of the economy is obvious! the military industry is growing to three-shift work, people began to receive decent salaries, despite the costs of their own, the economy is growing, and problems do not arise, and all sorts of kitchen critics, couch-laughing empty-heads, are simply weaklings and cannot earn themselves, and scold the government and business for the fact that it pays only those who really know how to work, and not clumsy kitchen-drunk fools experts who need to argue not with smart experts, but with toothless old women


                      3. -1
                        24 October 2024 12: 50
                        You'd better not embarrass yourself, but it's too late, continue to dwell in your fantasies. bully
                      4. 0
                        24 October 2024 12: 55
                        You perished in an unequal struggle! You did not find a single argument against my wise thoughts and facts, all your delusions became obvious! You were defeated like the Swede at Poltava and shamefully fled from the battlefield in smithereens! Making a pretty face in a bad game!
                      5. -1
                        24 October 2024 13: 00
                        haha, it turns out we have a new Napoleon here laughing
                      6. 0
                        24 October 2024 13: 08
                        the reference to Napoleon did not add any arguments that could prove your obviously false postulates.. you lost the argument trying to fight windmills with obvious facts and prove that seaplanes are supposedly not needed over water surfaces.... accept your defeat and repent in dust and ashes tongue
  3. 0
    21 October 2024 18: 22
    A. I already wrote about this in the comment to the previous article.
  4. +1
    21 October 2024 20: 53
    Perhaps it makes sense for the Russian Federation to return to the 11356, but it needs to be modified, and it is not worth accepting ships into service for the sake of the number of pennants. It is obvious that the 11356 needs a towed sonar, without which it cannot be a full-fledged anti-submarine ship, and it is very desirable to strengthen the short-range air defense, which is currently insufficient... The Indian frigates are equipped with Israeli short-range air defense systems, so the Russian Federation needs to strengthen the air defense of the 11356 by installing the Pantsir-M air defense missile and gun system on it, which will increase its survivability on the battlefield.
  5. 0
    22 October 2024 08: 03
    We need to build normal frigates with a displacement of 6-8 thousand, 1st rank... In series... And not all sorts of junk...
    1. -1
      22 October 2024 09: 20
      battleships are outdated and have been for a long time, there is no point in them and there is no point in wasting people's money on them, 1135, 956, 1164 are to be written off within 5-7 years, 1155 in 10-12 years, the decision has already been made to write off Peter, sell Kuzya to the Chinese, there will be only one battleship in the navy Nakhimov and many patrol ships of no more than 5500 tons, and better 4000, that's how it should be done
      1. -2
        22 October 2024 09: 31
        What battleships, sick man... There is nothing to assemble a detachment of ships for the expedition... What kind of ships recently went to Cuba? There is no fleet.
        1. -2
          22 October 2024 14: 23
          The Russian Federation has a huge fleet, one of the strongest in the world, only the United States and multi-billion dollar China have a larger fleet,
          1 strike force of the fleet The Russian Navy consists of 14 nuclear submarines with ballistic missiles, 28 nuclear submarines with missile and torpedo weapons, 19 diesel submarines, 8 special-purpose nuclear submarines and 1 special-purpose diesel submarine.
          2 ocean surface fleet for the Barents Sea and the Pacific coast of Kamchatka, also suitable for recreational trips to Cuba or convoys
          a nuclear cruiser and two 1164, two destroyers, 8 1155 submarines have undergone and are undergoing or are awaiting modernization into frigates with an extension of service life of at least 10 years, frigates 22350 4 submarines, and 6 are being built to replace the 1135, 956 and 1164 that are being written off in the near future, there are still 3 11356, .... and corvettes so there is something to go to Cuba on and there are generally enough surface ships, but there is an acute shortage of minesweepers and coastal aviation
          1. -1
            23 October 2024 06: 39
            A man from an alternate reality. "Recreational trip" to Cuba? Heard of the Cuban Missile Crisis?
            1. 0
              23 October 2024 21: 49
              no, I heard about it, but it was a long time ago, during the times of Ochakov and the conquest of Crimea
  6. +1
    22 October 2024 09: 48
    As long as the commanders - those who destroyed the fleet, the army, the country - nothing will happen. Why do they need it? They would like to avoid the trial and not allow the return of the death penalty for enemies of the people and their family members...
    1. 0
      22 October 2024 09: 54
      It seems that our president does not need a navy.
  7. +1
    22 October 2024 14: 02
    Don't live in the past. It's one thing to modernize the old stuff that you have, but it's quite another to start producing the old stuff anew.
  8. +1
    22 October 2024 22: 17
    What is 11356R? It is a degraded into crap 11356E "Talwar" from which modern systems were removed. Instead of a normal GAS they installed something that sees something only at point-blank range. The "Kortik" SAM was swept away on the AK-630. The combat information and control system was replaced with an outdated and simplified one. etc. In short, an excellent example of modernization with a minus sign. Although this is a navy, what is surprising about that...