Why do we need this Hartmann or the Rules of the war against the dead fascists

In recent years, as I have already noted in various publications before, the level of work of the Russian media has increased markedly. As, quite deservedly, confidence in them from the inside and outside of the country has also increased. This is a merit of both highly professional personnel, who are able to select high-quality material and evidence base, and the admission of some pluralism of opinions, which gives the public, so to speak, the effect of “a view from different angles”. Nevertheless, to my great regret, from time to time, the Russian media of the highest level and their most professional representatives on some topics simply begin to "slide" to the level of primitive and unproven "black and white" propaganda.

It is clear that there is a certain accepted line, which, for certain issues, must be strictly adhered to. But, as the old saying goes, "make a fool pray to God, he will break his forehead." Sometimes too zealous and not quite adequate upholding of a certain point of view turns out to be more likely the opposite effect, both in terms of the impact on the audience or listeners, and for the image of the media itself doing it. But the reputation is such that it takes a very long time to build and deserve it, but you can literally break it or lose it at the moment. One big stupid thing or a lie and that’s all, trust is lost. In precisely this way, once considered the standards of journalism for decades, many leading Western publications and television channels are rapidly losing their popularity and trust of the general public, day after day replicating for the sake of someone absolutely illogical or even false, but as if politically correct for a given period of time information, in fact, becoming only a primitive tool of primitive propaganda.

Erich Hartmann, left

On Sunday, October XNUMXth, in one of my favorite TV shows, Vesti Nedeli, with the host Dmitry Kiselyov and from his own lips, there was a harsh condemnation of the publication of a certain Diletant magazine, in which he talked about the German WWII pilot Erich Hartmann. This topic in the News of the Week, which was extremely unexpected for me, was devoted to a whole plot and a fairly large amount of airtime. Even more surprised by the tone and content of the report. The Dilettant magazine for this publication was accused of practically chanting fascist heroes, blackening the memory of the victims of the Great Patriotic War, and propaganda of Nazism.

In principle, I can guess what initial goal Dmitry Kiselyov set for this report, but he also definitely achieved another one - I think that a huge number of people who had never before been particularly interested in German aviation of World War II and had never heard anything about after the publication of the “News of the Week” show, did they find this magazine exactly? and they read this article in it, not excluding me. I wonder why all of a sudden such a commotion on the main federal channel and in the main issue News during the week! But after reading this material, I did not find anything criminal or truly glorifying fascism or trampling the results of the Great Patriotic War in this article. An ordinary historical publication on a specific historical topic, and rather short and incomplete - in any decent encyclopedia much more and more is written about this famous German pilot, apparently the person was really outstanding and deserved it. But someone just really wanted to find fault, or they set such a task. Well, apparently, they tried on Russian central television as they could.

This publication, which attracted the attention of the famous TV presenter RTR, on October 2, 2018, is called “Erich Hartmann - Luftwaffe Legend”. Hartmann is still the official world record holder in the number of enemy aircraft shot down in battle. According to German data, there are as many as 352 of them in his account. Of these, 348 are Soviet and 4 are American (this is according to the "Dilettante", according to some other American data, there are seven or eight of them), which is not surprising - Hartmann fought on the Eastern Front , and so met with the Americans in the air extremely rarely, that is, they were lucky in this sense, we can say. In general, the material of the historical journal Dilettant briefly describes the life and military career of a pilot, who is without a doubt one of the most outstanding combat pilots both in World War II and of all times in general. And not only the author of the article in The Dilettant thinks so, but most military historians, Soviet ones do not exclude this. But the director general of the All-Russian State Television and Radio Broadcasting Company, in this publication, judging by his violent reaction, was outraged by almost everything, but the main thing is that the hero of the article was German and served during the World War II precisely in the Hitler army. As Dmitry Kiselev calculated, more than three hundred shot down Soviet planes are at least two hundred dead Soviet pilots. Well, in general, it’s hard to disagree with the quantity and the fact itself - front, war, death, and so on ...

All this was a huge tragedy for entire nations. But, for example, it doesn’t occur to anyone (I hope) to condemn the Hero of the Soviet Union, the submariner A.I. Marinesco for the sinking of the German transport Wilhelm Gustloff? And on board this ship there were only about 1500 German military personnel, most of whom were evacuated patients and wounded, and all other passengers, according to various sources, from seven to ten thousand people, were civilian refugees, the ship was heavily overloaded. After the disaster, no more than one fifth of all the people on deck survived. But Marinesco attacked an enemy ship leaving the enemy port in a group with enemy warships, and everything that happened after that is a war that does not happen without victims, including innocents. And these Soviet pilots, with whom the German Hartmann fought in the air, were also unlikely to carry civilian passengers or perishable fruits on their planes, and if this German ace himself had hit them in the sight, he would have no doubt as well would have sent him to that light and with his Messerschmitt ... And, fortunately, they also managed to do this often and repeatedly - in the end, the ending of this war is known to everyone.

Also, by the way, Mr. Kiselyov didn’t like the phrase “... German planes, on average, were faster and rose to a higher height than Soviet ones ...” Tables with comparatives were immediately displayed on the TV screen as a refutation technical data of the Messerschmitt BF-109 modification “G”, on which the aforementioned Erich Hartmann was flying, and the Soviet fighter Yak-3 and La-7, which the Germans were clearly superior in many technical data. And it is true. But firstly, here Kiselev somehow missed in the context an important detail in this particular proposal, namely, that German planes were “average” better in technical capabilities, and this “average” comes from the fact that, to Unfortunately, by no means all the Soviet Air Force in the period described above were exclusively represented by the Yak-3, and even more so the La-7, in truth, there were not so many of them in the troops, while the Messerschmitt - 109 ”in various modifications was from the very beginning of hostilities the most massive fighter of the Hitlerite Luftwaffe, it was also widely exported and in the number of produced nearly 35 pieces was the most massive fighter in the world in general. Moreover, the production of this machine itself began back in 000, and he officially went to serve in the Reich Air Force from 1935, while both Soviet fighters described by Kiselyov began to be produced only in the spring of 1937. And secondly, the performance of the German pilot is confirmed once again by these performance characteristics, if, according to Kiselyov, he was fighting with newer and technically better machines than his own, already somewhat outdated Messer. The host of Vesti Nedeki does not credit the very number of aircraft shot down by Hartmann himself, but exclusively Goebbels propaganda, which simply “needed such blond blue-eyed heroes,” and they attributed, they say, hundreds of shot down enemies for the sake of a red word and maintaining the declining morale of the Nazis in the trenches ...

Only somehow Dmitry Kiselyov apparently doesn’t know that in Soviet (and not only) flight schools and the Air Force Academy for some reason the experience and actions of all these “blue-eyed heroes invented by Goebbels propaganda” during the war, and after its end, then for decades carefully disassembled and studied. Apparently, too, they were so seduced by fascist propaganda ... As a matter of fact, the military experience of the German generals Guderian, Manstein, von Bock, Rommel, and many many others was disassembled and adopted, because then the Red Army had an experienced, strong, intelligent opponent there is still something to learn, and even to this day, and not only in the military sphere ...

This was the opinion of outstanding Soviet and Russian scientists and military leaders, but the journalist Dmitry Kiselev does not think so, and not for scientific and practical, but apparently purely for ideological reasons. Although the correctness of these ideas, or rather their interpretation and application, can also be doubted ... By the way, when working on books on the theme of World War II, I had to deal with German archival materials more than once. I don’t presume to say how many planes exactly Erich Hartmann shot down, that’s what I’ve never specifically been interested in, but I know from personal experience that such information in the German armed forces was checked through several channels, if possible. For his merits, this pilot was awarded, among other things, one of the highest possible awards of the Third Reich - the Knight's Cross with oak leaves, swords and diamonds, which in fact are four degrees of this Knight's Cross, and they were assigned separately from each other, each for certain merits, and it was almost impossible to organize without confirmation of the actions then accessible by means of objective control and witnesses, simply on the basis of some propaganda videos or newspaper articles (unlike the USSR, by the way, where similar cases are known and even became the subject of legal proceedings). But even if you imagine the almost impossible that he shot down not three and a half hundreds, but, say, even two hundred aircraft, this figure is still huge!

Both of my grandfathers fought. One, by mum, was a tanker, the other, by dad, pilot, both before and after the war, cadre officers, both served as colonels, both after the war they studied at the academy of armored forces and the Air Force, respectively, and that’s why I know what was studied there first hand. I was interested in the Army and all this concerning from childhood, and accordingly I asked grandfathers about everything as I could. So I’ll continue with the information I received from my grandfathers: the first one, a tanker, started the battle path from the Finnish campaign, it so happened that he then fought a lot on Lend-Lease equipment, ended the war in the Czechoslovak city of Brno with the regiment commander as part of the Second Ukrainian Front, and this regiment was entirely on American Sherman tanks. In the words of his grandfather himself, “these tanks were crappy, both in comparison with ours, and with German ones”, rubber caterpillars often broke, motors burned, etc., but these, they say, were not the worst ones what did we get from the allies. At the beginning of the war, General Lee or the English Matilda came from the United States to the Red Army, and this, grandfather, was “even worse than shit”, but they had to fight on that, their tanks were sorely lacking. To support the infantry in the field, these machines were still somehow suitable, but if necessary, engage in a direct clash even with far from the best and not the newest German tanks or self-propelled guns, these were ready-made iron coffins for the crews.

The second grandfather, who was a pilot, was at the front as a pilot of the notorious Il-2 attack aircraft, but also flew on the Lendlizovskie R-39 Aerial Cobra, though not in battle, but only during the transfer of this equipment from Iran to the USSR. In the Soviet Air Force these fighters were delivered in fairly large quantities. The grandfather-pilot spoke about them about the same as the grandfather-tanker about American tanks. He said that in the US Army they mainly flew blacks (for adherents of tolerance, the specification is African-Americans), the plane was dangerous, it often crashed, while the engine was sort of behind the cockpit, so if it wasn’t very successful landing because of damage, the need “on the belly” or simply with a broken landing gear, which was not uncommon at front-line airfields and in battle, the motor broke off the mounts and, moving forward, literally killed the pilot on the ground, which simply could not happen in other models. This is so, for the information to Mr. Kiselyov and similar specialists that not all of us fought on the excellent T-34/85, IS, or the then latest Yaks and Lavochkins, perhaps partly also from here a huge the number of victories of German tank crews and pilots ... By the way, it was on the Aero Cobra, that is, on the far from the most successful American fighter of that time, in 1943-1944 the Soviet ace pilot, three times the hero of the Soviet Union Alexander Ivanovich Pokryshkin, also counted which 59 personally shot down enemy aircraft plus has confirmed in group battles. Honor and praise be to him. It is interesting, by the way, that after the collapse of the USSR, the number of Pokryshkin’s victories was also called into question by some “historians”, and it was attributed to propaganda, this time Stalin’s, but this, it seems, has such a fate for air aces ...

But we go further - the director general of VGTRK, among other things, didn’t really like the article he saw that Hartmann is depicted in the photo against the background of an airplane with a swastika on its tail and even with a smile. And this photograph, according to Kiselyov, personifies as much as "... contempt for the cultural code of the Russian people, where the memory of the victims of the Great Patriotic War is sacred ..." (quote). I fully and completely support the idea of ​​the sacredness for our people of the memory of the victims of the Great Patriotic War, but the use of precisely these words here and in this context is a clear excess, to say the least ... A certain person had the happiness or misfortune to be born in the German town of Vaysakh, land Wurttemberg, and of military age to reach just in time for the Second World War. Therefore, it is natural that he got into the German army, which then was the same as it was and was doing what it was doing. If he had been born, say, in Lipetsk or Krasnodar, then he would have posed with a smile, most likely not from Messerschmitt with a swastika, but from the same Yak or Aero Cobra with a red star, like Pokryshkin. But everything happened as it happened, and the one who was destined to become the world's best fighter pilot was born German in Germany. Moreover, in my opinion, the fact itself on which side he found himself in that war, however, does not detract from his skill and real achievements. And that same photograph is a historical document - on which he flew, with which he was photographed. He served his country as best he could and the one that was then. And there were millions of such people and, by the way, on both sides. I personally spoke with Soviet and several German veterans, as well as with Americans and Czechs who served in the British Air Force during World War II. I even attended meetings of these people who once stood against each other on opposite sides of the front line. Once it was even a triple meeting of pilots - German, Russian and two Americans. A very interesting impression, but the main thing that I saw, or rather I never saw at all and never at these meetings, is hatred or some kind of anger. Nothing of the kind, but a huge and genuine mutual interest. Many years later, it was interesting for these people to find out how their opponents saw it, and they were sincerely glad to talk and apparently just look at each other no longer through sight ... In the German armed forces during World War II, the total number of convinced Nazis approximately the percentage of the number of convinced communists in the Red Army. And that is a fact. It is simply stupid and dishonest to hang on all these people the label “fascists”.

Now in the so-called anti-terrorist operation zone in eastern Ukraine there are Ukrainian armed forces as “ideological” sharply nationalist (or even Nazi) “volunteer battalions”, which, fortunately for all, are a minority, and the regular army are conscripts there and there is the bulk, and the overwhelming majority of these people fell and further on the basis of rotation they fall into the combat zone directly against their own will. But they are citizens of Ukraine, the one that is now, and this is not their fault. They took the oath and were called up to the regular army of their country. And this same army, under the authority of its government, the one it currently has, is doing what it is doing there .... And their flag is not red, and there are crosses on the tanks ... So now what, we must call them all without exception fascists and Bandera, it is necessary to hate all these people fiercely? ... According to the logic of Mr. Kiselyov, apparently yes. But this is, after all, the same thing that the crazy Kiev authorities are doing today, calling all the inhabitants of Donbass “separatists and terrorists”, urging them to be destroyed and not considered for people. Where is the difference? What good will all these labels lead to entire nations? People are different, times are different, but the system is the same - stupid "black and white" propaganda: it’s us who are right, good, white and fluffy, and there they are “fascists”, “communists”, “untermans”, “ quilted jackets "," Colorado "and so on and so forth ... The principle is still the same, and where it leads is known, so why repeat all this again?

“Why do we need Hartmann?” - raising his hands in his "corporate" gesture, Dmitry Kiselyov asks from the television screen of the Russian state channel, he is supposedly a German, a Galilee fascist, he has a swastika on the plane there and therefore he deserves only hatred and contempt, and we have our heroes . Like this. The logic here is apparently the same as that of Ukrainian nationalists, who burn books, simply because they are in Russian, the content does not interest them. Or, for the same reason, the monuments are demolished - they are Soviet, and everything Soviet is bad by definition, the setting is now this, and God forbid there is still somewhere a star and a sickle with a hammer, this is generally horror-horror, symbols of occupation, an insult to memory of the Ukrainian people and their struggle for freedom ... Or somewhere in the Baltic states - why, they say there from TV screens, to read us some Russian heroes or learn something from them, they are communist occupiers, and we have our own heroes there is. There are, how not to be, and torchlight processions of Waffen-SS veterans begin ...

Here someone may object, they were the invaders, and we are the liberators, it was they who invaded us, and we defended our land. That’s yes, but just don’t forget that the exact same “black and white” propaganda was before, and the soldiers were told that they were fighting for a holy cause, fighting the inhuman tyranny that was about to overwhelm the whole world - and it was in these concepts and these same words, the high command turned to the Germans, and to our Red Army soldiers, and to the troops of the Anglo-American allies. And it was with such thoughts that both went into battle, got into their tanks or planes, with stars or crosses ... Don’t you believe it? Read the newspapers of the time, they are usually in the libraries in the public domain, or the memoirs of the veterans themselves from different angles. And our soldiers were told the same thing in 1956 in Hungary (by the way, my grandfather was also a tanker there), and in 1968 in Czechoslovakia, then in Afghanistan and in other places where the Soviet army didn’t defend its own land, but its military personnel there were simply fulfilling their duty to the motherland, orders of the command and were faithful to the oath. Are these people to blame for something? Pilots, tank crews, paratroopers or motorized rifles? In my opinion, no. Perhaps the leadership of the country and the command are to blame somewhere and for some reason, but ordinary soldiers and officers shed their blood far from home, and today their graves are hit by vandals, simply because there are monuments with a red star above them, from which With the help of exactly the same “black and white” propaganda, in some places they have now made a simply hated symbol of the invaders, nothing more. And to uneducated drunken youths somewhere in Eastern Europe, it doesn’t even matter when and under what circumstances the Soviet soldiers whose graves they smashed were killed, it’s enough that they just have a red star above them, as they were also told on TV, a symbol of hated communism and occupation, although they really know absolutely nothing about either.

What, somehow, is this already far from the original topic, from the article about the Hartmann pilot? No, it's all there. I’m just trying to show such overly active patriots like Dmitry Kiselyov that their methods of struggle for a certain idea sometimes look no better than those whom they criticize so ardently so often. And most importantly, the result is the same: for people who themselves are not accustomed to thinking or are not able to, a certain center of hatred just seems to turn on; and those viewers and listeners who have not forgotten how to think and analyze the information received independently, simply lose confidence and respect for such figures.

Well, finally, really, why do we need this German Hartmann? ... Yes, in general, there is no need, just an outstanding pilot and everything, the best in the world, a historical person. But we don’t need such a story, because we have our own ... So? ...

Or still, I hope the opposite? And do we really need Hartmann? It is necessary for about the same reason, for example, why the rest of the world and the same Americans need our Yuri Gagarin - a communist, a star of Soviet propaganda, also smiled a lot everywhere and often, often against the backdrop of many so hated Soviet characters, but at the same time he really was the first man in space and it was them, the Americans, who were ahead of this.

This is all just our common history, the history of our civilization. With peace and wars, with great inventions and disasters, with achievements and failures, with geniuses and villains. What happened, it was impossible to erase it from history, even if someone doesn’t really like something. But if history is regularly misinterpreted for the sake of certain instantaneous interests, then the main goal of its study in general is lost - the opportunity to learn something based on historical facts.
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  1. alexey alexeyev_2 (Alexey Alekseev) 11 October 2018 11: 53
    Well, Marinesko could not have been touched .. With one attack, letting down the entire prepared personnel of the German submarine fleet is worth a lot .. How much did he save our people. And a hartman? But what a hartman, would he get to Kozhedub or Pokryshkin who would wait for him remembered. I have a book about him .. Why are the authors British. The tactics are straightforward. I climbed-dived. I hit it well, I didn’t hit it with climb, I took advantage of the Messenger on the vertical. Dog dumps, so beloved by our hawks, could not stand it .. Bomber Ov tried not to touch .. Especially from whom the shooter watered from the tail. All the forces he threw back from moving to the west. Although at that time the Allies turned the Germans into dust. His bride practically didn’t get out of the bomb shelter .. Yes, and I noticed one peculiarity .. With the transfer to the west, the performance of German aces fell. It’s understandable. The downed allies fell into the territory of the Reich. You can’t add an extra dozen. It was shot down 9 times. Why didn’t he die .. I didn’t use the respect of the surviving German aces. I was not invited to the annual gatherings of aces-passing in America .. Well, something like this
    1. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
      Pishenkov (Alexey) 11 October 2018 12: 05
      Wikipedia, Russian version, quote:

      On January 30, 1945, the S-13 attacked and sent to the bottom the ship of the German navy “Wilhelm Gustloff” (a former airliner of 25 gt), on which there were 484 Germans: 10 military personnel - 582 cadets of the junior groups of the 1nd training submarine division , 626 crew members, 918 women from the auxiliary marine corps, 2 seriously wounded military personnel and 173 civilians, mainly elderly people, women and children.

      (although there are other data, there were about 350 people for them)

      This is simply a matter of the accuracy of your data and conclusions from them, and given the date of the sinking and the state of the German Navy at that time, these submarine cadets, even if they had survived, would have gone somewhere on the Oder front as infantry. So what about the entire prepared composition of the submarine fleet, I would probably like Kiselev ...
      And the article is not about Hartmann at all ...
      1. Alf Offline Alf
        Alf (Vasiliy) 12 January 2019 17: 17
        Quote: A. Pishenkoff
        8956 civilians, mostly old people, women and children.

        Exactly, exactly. It is urgent to transfer soldiers, and they evacuate women and children. NOT FUNNY !
        Even Goebbels did not stutter that there were children, women and the elderly, and if there were, then the wives of prominent Nazis. Ordinary residents of the Reich, no one was going to save.
  2. kot711 Offline kot711
    kot711 (vov) 11 October 2018 12: 07
    maybe your grandfathers were heroes, but you can’t pull it. why not describe how, heroically, the Essessians dealt with subhumans? Do you need to KNOW how the Nazis forged your heroes?
    1. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
      Pishenkov (Alexey) 11 October 2018 16: 11
      ... and I know, I have a book about this, I think, in 2009, in 2012 it was reissued, you can familiarize yourself. And in general, I don’t tear myself into heroes, although I have seen something in life ...
      1. optika4 Offline optika4
        optika4 (Alexander ) 11 October 2018 17: 11
        It’s interesting how they would react to this article in the year 1948, say, with just a good guy with a big smile, and even an outstanding pilot. Millions of lives and it was not Hitler himself who pulled the trigger or the trigger to millions of ordinary German guys, former peasants and workers. "Ordinary fascism" by Mikhail Romm, look, it will be interesting. When the war is going on, it is no longer possible to be such a person of peace standing over the battle. Every historian whom you consider yourself should have a national self-identification, otherwise you will get fruit kefir that suits everyone, but nobody wants to drink.
        1. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
          Pishenkov (Alexey) 11 October 2018 17: 51
          Thanks for the comment. In 1948, the authorities and the censorship would certainly have reacted badly to this, but among people, including whom I personally knew, opinions about the war and about the Germans were often very different from the authorities. Time also means a lot and changes a lot, for example, in the mid-30s, German tankers and pilots, as you know, trained at our training grounds together with ours (they were prohibited from doing this at Versailles), then in 1939 with the same German guys in that In the same uniform, our grandfathers in Poland still hugged and shook hands, after 2 years the situation changed and they began to shoot at each other. Now it's 2018, and over 70 years we have learned much more about everything and we can look at a lot and compare a lot from these positions and without unnecessary emotions. With national self-identification and position in case of war, I am also all right, believe me. But I don’t agree about history: it’s just it that we should at least try to study it impartially, otherwise if we look at everything from the actual position of the party, then there is no sense in such a story either. In Soviet schools and institutes they taught us one thing and this was the only correct thing, then in the 90s it suddenly became fashionable to turn it over and throw mud at it, doused it in the press and in television and in the cinema, including the history of the Second World War, the same, and its heroes were debunked like on a conveyor belt. Now the line of state policy has again turned 180 degrees, well, the press and the court "history" are behind it ... So is that right? Where does the wind blow? And about studying history from films, that's really excuse me ... ... By the way, depending on the production time, they are also very different in presenting the same thing. And if you look at the American ones, it seems that it was the USA that won the war, and if, for example, you take the famous film of our childhood "Four Tankmen and a Dog", then in World War II the main characters are Poles ...
          1. Essex62 Offline Essex62
            Essex62 (Alexander) 11 October 2018 22: 34
            Maybe you are right. But education is nowhere to go, and there is no semitones in my, personally, perception. Regardless of whether the Germans who came to our land were in the NSDAP or not, and all rabble they are fierce enemies. They came to kill, burn and rape. And they did it, simple German guys who swore an oath to the motherland. Forgetting and forgiving is not possible. And now the wind is blowing in the same direction as in Soviet times, for a reason. Aligarhat, in the person of his powerful henchmen, is looking for an imitation of clamps, there are no others and cannot be. Hence the vigorous activity on the creation of patriotic shows, with their participation. Here, mentioned by you, Kiselev, is a regular propagandist of such "braces". There are a legion of them. History can be studied only by the dry figures of the dates of the events that took place. Without any assessment of these events. This, in fact, is history. And then a personal position, depending on upbringing and political views.
            1. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
              Pishenkov (Alexey) 11 October 2018 23: 19
              I agree. Only unfortunately (or fortunately), regardless of our subjective perception, all life in reality consists exclusively of half tones. There is neither pure black nor pure white in it.
          2. optika4 Offline optika4
            optika4 (Alexander ) 12 October 2018 10: 40
            You are right Alexey, more than 70 years have passed, but somehow it is impossible to study history without emotions. If you are a historian, then it seems to me that you should consider historical events in the context of that time, it is much easier for you to do this with more information, What do you want me to do with emotions when I look at the burnt Soviet soldiers in Hungary or at the corpses of those who were shot in the backs in Czechoslovakia. You propose to calmly contemplate the countless, endless names of soldiers on mass graves, because it was so long ago. Apparently not You asked your grandfather-tanker about everything. Probably each of us should be a citizen of his Motherland, and that's exactly what I wanted to put it. Not a citizen of his country and not a patriot (I don't like this word, too pretentious) of the Motherland. After all, this concept united in 41 near Moscow and a Leningrad Komsomol student and a peasant from the provinces with a primary education. As for the war, it must be going on. See the interview with the German veterans by German TV journalists. They do not repent of anything, at best they justify themselves or blame the bad Hitler. So a choice will have to be made, otherwise we will have more and more "boys from the Urengoy" broadcasting from the rostrum of the Bundestag about the difficult the fate of a simple German soldier who just wanted to live. Apparently, no one showed this boy what was written on the outer walls of the Reichstag in 45, possibly by one of his ancestors.
            I agree with you that there have been many different Kisilevs with their bear services. As they say, make a fool pray to God ....
            P.S.And you still watch the film, there, besides the ideological component, there are figures and facts that are difficult to argue with.
            1. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
              Pishenkov (Alexey) 12 October 2018 12: 01
              I just asked my grandfather a lot, how much it was possible and how much he generally wanted to talk about it. From Budapest, he had 2 bullets right in his back. It was his tank regiment that was there and "pacified". I know a lot of details. Then he also stayed there for a long time. And by the way, it was he who was the first to give me the idea that far from everything that they tell us about the war at school and show in the movies is pure truth, And he had great respect for the Germans both as people and as fighters. And to every soldier of any army in the world, both the winner and the loser, wherever he was, if he personally knows that he did not rob, rape, did not mock, etc., but performed his duty in accordance with the order and oath, for which he should be ashamed ?
          3. DeGreen Offline DeGreen
            DeGreen 15 October 2018 12: 57
            It is unfortunate that someone like you is allowed to write any nonsense that whitewashes the Nazis. the second scribbler is a certain Bilzho, who stated that Zoya Kosmodemyanskaya was a lunatic drug addict who herself surrendered to the Nazis. I hope you come around
  3. Arkharov Offline Arkharov
    Arkharov (Grigory Arkharov) 11 October 2018 17: 37
    Good article.
  4. boriz Offline boriz
    boriz (boriz) 12 October 2018 00: 05
    Your grandfather Kobru overtook, and Pokryshkin fought on it. When he was forced to transfer to Yak, he fought back as best he could. Probably not stupid. Like any technique, the Cobra had flaws and advantages. The advantages outweighed. This is a review (due to the location of the engine, the cockpit is moved forward, and wings are rearward), maneuverability (the center of gravity coincided with the aerodynamic center of the car, again due to the location of the engine), comfort for the pilot, very powerful weapons. Pokryshkin knows better.
    The text shows your negative attitude to the role of our army in Hungary and Czechoslovakia. The Hungarians fought with us from the first to the last day, as not all Germans fought. And with civilians they behaved worse than the Germans. As a result, ours stopped capturing them and near Voronezh the largest foreign Hungarian cemetery. Their revolt was inspired by the West to distract the USSR from the Sinai crisis. So that ours behaved as it should. The Czechs, although they did not fight, but on the other hand, the Germans regularly riveted almost the entire range of weapons until April 45th. Before the war, Czechoslovakia held 40% of arms exports. Look at the size of Czechoslovakia on the map and compare its share with the current leaders of the arms market. And industry raised 100 tons of gold stolen from us during the Civil War. The Slavs, moreover, fought with us. That they owe us. And they had to sit quietly, like a mouse under a broom and quietly sniff into two holes. Ours were still dealing with them (unlike the military of the German Democratic Republic, who remembered the fate of the Germans, naked evicted from the Sudetenland).
    1. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
      Pishenkov (Alexey) 12 October 2018 09: 51
      I have absolutely no negative attitude to the role of our army in Hungary and the Czech Republic. You apparently didn’t read very carefully. The point is, just being honest
      sometimes he has to do his military duty and serve his country, not necessarily defending his land, but also attacking others. What do you think would happen in 1956 with those servicemen of the SA who would refuse to carry out the order? And in the same situation with the Germans, for example, in 1941? You think few of them from the very beginning understood the horror of the adventure of war with the USSR? But firstly, I won’t go deeper, otherwise this is a very unpopular topic, but the situation in 1941 was really very ambiguous and what prompted Hitler to decide on this big question, and secondly, when real hostilities are already beginning , then in nature everything already works quite differently than in books, films and historical opuses - in the vast majority of cases, on both sides at the level of combat units in the field, there are no high thoughts, human principals, justifications of who is right who is to blame, etc. etc., there is you and yours for Acha, you want to perform, and all. And it all looks like it then looks, each for himself and for his comrades ...
      Moreover, according to certain historical and political rules, everything that the USSR did then in Eastern Europe was absolutely correct, again from my personal point of view. The problem is that it was after this that in Eastern Europe they began to blame the USSR for occupation, atrocities, strangulation of democracy, etc., although I know better than all how much this is nonsense and lies, but the propaganda worked and our star became a symbol of evil for many (like we are a swastika, I understand that it is unrealistic to compare this with OUR point of view, but other peoples have their own criteria and their propagandists, successful by the way). And then everyone had somehow forgotten that the vast majority of the same monuments with stars in Europe belong to a completely different period of history. Dumb freaks anyway - see a star - break. This is creepy. And we came to this in exactly the same way the star = Russian = occupier = evil. And the German = fascist = evil is better?
      And everything else that you write about, I don’t understand at all, to be honest, what does this article have to do with it? It is possible and interesting to talk on all these topics, the points of view are different ... but this is apparently not here ...
      1. optika4 Offline optika4
        optika4 (Alexander ) 12 October 2018 19: 58
        Alexei, as I understand from your article, you suggest studying history without ideology, without momentary conjuncture, abstracting from everything. Indeed, the historian, in your opinion, should be impartial. Studying any historical figures is important for understanding history as a whole, for the development of civilization. I I’m trying to convey to you that without national self-identification this is basically wrong. It just can happen that civilization will be. And we as a people, as a nation will not be in it. And more about high thoughts and principles in the conduct of hostilities ... Matro owls and Panfilov’s were not because they had one rifle for three, they died so that we would not die, and the history of modern wars knows quite a few examples.
        1. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
          Pishenkov (Alexey) 13 October 2018 00: 19
          We as a people will not exist if we lose our national identity, language, values ​​(like a traditional family and, in general, 10 commandments) and a course of independent development. By denying the achievements of other peoples on the principle "not ours - bad" we will neither help our development nor self-identification. Yes, here you understood correctly, I am just for the history of bare facts, but which of them each person or nation will draw conclusions for themselves - this is already the business of these people and peoples. If we "study" through the prism of our national interests, moreover, depending on the time and course of the party, then today we will have one story, tomorrow another, this hero today, and tomorrow he is a traitor. And the Germans, Americans, etc., will have a different story altogether, "their own" ... We only have in my memory, for example, about the tsar, the revolution and Lenin, everything has changed dramatically already 3 times, is that history or propaganda?
          And I’ll say this about the war: I can’t know what exactly was in the head of Matrosov or other heroes then. I strongly doubt that crawling to DotA he was thinking about future generations, rather about how to throw a grenade to an embrasure, etc., although this does not detract from what he did. In the history of modern wars: if you suddenly get sputtered by the brains of your comrade sitting next to you, then it is at this particular moment and for some time later that you don’t give a damn about all the noble ideas and high principles that those who did it might uphold I just want to do about the same for them and it is advisable to stay whole myself. And you can also remember your principles later, after a couple of years, when you will tell someone about this ...
          1. Alexander Ra Offline Alexander Ra
            Alexander Ra (Alexander) 13 October 2018 20: 16
            Where did you see the abstract, absolutely “objective” story? List the countries living on such a story? Why offer a story outside the prism of national interests? Tell the Chinese about this, try to convince other - not Russian - peoples of the need for a refined history. Do you want us to vaccinate tolerance during the Russian national disaster? We have not yet eaten "all people are brothers." Offer to admire the ace, whose main chip was to attack from around the corner. Effectively. Your admiration for Hartmann is definitely felt. Is the USA - the world record holder in the effective use of atomic weapons (Hiroshima, Nagasaki) - also admire and respect? In the movie “Attraction”, a stranger is good, and a stranger is bad - does this help our self-identification? Sailors crawled to the bunker in order not to respect, but to destroy the enemies. But you did not find admiration for it. Your recollections of your grandfathers are perceived as a desire to convince - I am mine. The fathers of A. Chubais, A. Uchitel (Matilda) were also honored people, but their children are different. Your eyeliners are curious: align our heroes with the “Ukrainian nationalists”, Hartmann and Gagarin, “convinced Nazis” and “convinced communists”. ATOshniks in Ukraine, shooting the Donbass, took the oath, and therefore "this is not their fault"? Your "... values ​​(such as a traditional family and, in fact, the 10 commandments) and the course of independent development ..." are not very sincere and tortured, but enthusiastic about the "achievements" of the Hartmans. You manipulate, teach cynicism, tolerance and spiritual disarmament. We need something completely different.
            1. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
              Pishenkov (Alexey) 13 October 2018 22: 44
              If you have a national disaster right now, then yes, you definitely need something else. I personally had a national disaster from about 1988 to 2008. Then it improved and continues. I'm proud of my grandfathers and don't convince anyone of anything, I just express my personal point of view. What I have from the heart and what is "tortured" is certainly not for you to judge. I think that and that
              2 x 2 is five or eight, you also won't need to convince you for a long time if they tell you on TV that this is a patriotic trend today. Yes, and I am definitely not "mine" to you and I hardly want to be one
              1. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
                Pishenkov (Alexey) 13 October 2018 23: 47
                PS By the way, it’s still very interesting regarding the “vile tactics of attack from around the corner”, that is, visible from above the Sun. Here it’s to listen to you so that, for example, the famous Stalingrad sniper Vasily Zaitsev also behaved extremely indecently - he wet the Germans more and more from under the silence, from the ambush, so that there is no cry of “Hurray and bayonet ... Everyone is fighting as best he can, the main thing is the result. Here you can take the same Pokryshkin - 59 shot down in a personal battle and 6 in a group battle, Kozhedub - personally 64 in group 0, Rechkalov - 61 personally in group 4, Gulaev - 57 personal 3 groups (by the way, he has the best efficiency ratio - the ratio of victories to air battles) ), so maybe this tactic is better than the well-known "dog dumps"? And setting tail from above the Sun is a classic of air combat - an ideal that every pilot sought
                1. Alexander Ra Offline Alexander Ra
                  Alexander Ra (Alexander) 14 October 2018 06: 07
                  Your point of view makes a big reverence towards “citizens of the world”, “universal people”, for whom national interests, self-identity are all the same atavism. As in our constitution, the priority is international. rights and Article 282 .. When you simplify everything to a purely animal - “you don’t give a damn about all the noble ideas and high principles ... you want to do something about the same for them” - why protect yourself at all? You can stick to the stronger, as Ukrainians and some Poles to the Americans. The story of bare facts and admiration for the performance of the hartmans is a ready-made guide to retooling. If you bring your views to a public display, then do not be shy, you have the goal of persuading. It’s good that they quickly understood the difference of views, I do not accept liberalism-globalism and the “native” 5-column.
                  1. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
                    Pishenkov (Alexey) 14 October 2018 12: 50
                    All? Arguments ran out (quickly), there were only slogans. You and similar people remind me of Komsomol leaders and political leaders of the 80s. At first glance, while they stood on the platform and broadcast, like convinced, knowledgeable and savvy, but God forbid, ask them something a little deeper and in fact, they immediately began to get angry, sputter, shout slogans and accusations, then, of course, they reported where to ... But they were afraid to enter into the discussion, their senior comrades did not teach this, because they themselves had problems with the real justifications of their own slogans. I don’t consider myself a person of the world, although I don’t really understand why you can’t be them, while remaining Russian and respecting the interests of your country and people. What we all agree on is the rejection of globalism and liberalism, I don’t have the slightest sympathy for these views, this is evil in its purest form, and has nothing to do with world history in my understanding of it. Still, you still pleased me: if you have such a reaction, it’s hurt, then the thought works and life can move somewhere, so it was not in vain that I wrote it. And more information for you to ponder:
                    You wrote about China there. The Chinese, by the way, and with an awareness of their own history and with the recognition of other people's achievements, are all in order, they just do not move at all along the path of inventing their own bicycles, but quite the opposite. And their current over-successful political-economic model, which successful political-economic model that already existed in history is most reminiscent of you? I think that if you try to really consider and understand this issue, then the conclusion will upset you very much (for political reasons). And we, too, seem to be moving there, thank God, only very slowly and in zigzags ... And Trump is trying, but globalists and liberalists are hindering him in this ... ... I, of course, mean the poetic-economic model and not everything else ...
  5. DeGreen Offline DeGreen
    DeGreen 15 October 2018 12: 50
    Here you are ... Compare Marinescu, who defended his people, with the freak who attacked these people. Are you not Ukrainian for an hour?
  6. DeGreen Offline DeGreen
    DeGreen 15 October 2018 13: 04
    People, is it really not clear that Alexey Pishenkov is a Ukrainian provocateur. I tracked him. He pulls quotes from the comments, and then writes in ukrosi that the Russians love Hitler and curse their heroes
    1. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
      Pishenkov (Alexey) 15 October 2018 15: 05
      "...Closed!" - Guessed Stirlitz after the third kick at the door with a run. But even here an insidious surprise lay in wait for the experienced Soviet intelligence officer: the door simply opened in the other direction ...

      ..I think on this high note, it’s time for me personally to stop participating in this discussion, otherwise I’m afraid that from now on I will recall only obscene jokes ...
  7. Sergey Latyshev Offline Sergey Latyshev
    Sergey Latyshev (Serge) 16 October 2018 11: 23
    Conclusions from the discussion:
    1) It is advisable to study history without propaganda.
    2) You need to lie less.
    I can advise historical editions by Goblin / Puchkov. For me, they are objective.
  8. iury.vorgul Offline iury.vorgul
    iury.vorgul (Berserker Homa) 17 October 2018 17: 42
    Dear Alexey. There is such a publicist - Yuri Mukhin. He wrote a very good book, in which he considers such an aspect as the number of aircraft destroyed by the famous aces of the 2nd World War, and the use of this in the propaganda of the belligerent states. The book is called "Aces and Propaganda". Without touching on the political views of Mukhin and his somewhat peculiar manner of presentation, I can explain that his arguments about why he believes that the count of Soviet planes allegedly shot down by Hartman was actually inflated by Goebbels' propaganda, seemed to me quite convincing. By the way, in the same place he also analyzes the vaunted, supposedly "very effective" German system for recording downed aircraft.
  9. beeper Offline beeper
    beeper 4 November 2018 17: 38
    Do Americans really need our cosmonaut Yuri Gagarin, "tolerant" You are ours, A. Pishenkov ?! Do they remember him when they write in their books about the conquest of space by Mankind — after all, they write only about their American "pioneers" ?! wink
    In vain you are so "bending" and stressing on the alleged "objectivity" in your "historical opinions". Famously you smear the invaders-occupiers and defenders-liberators of their Fatherland with one paint, "not everything is so simple" with the attack of Hitler's Germany on the Soviet Union, say (that is, a tolerant "tip" to "Hitler defended himself" - as in all anti-Soviet, and now anti-Russian, "manuals"?) ?! "
    Nda, not an article, but a continuous ode to the patched up (with this stinking "military trick" the Hitlerite ass achieved that, when captured, our soldiers pushed it into the back of the "lorry" from the very edge, from where it jumped on the move and got lost in the corn field ... according to his own recollections) and the liar-libeller Hartman, the Hitlerite generals and all "ordinary Hitlerites", as well as the "heroes of the ATO" (Aleksey, these are just renegades, not "the whole people", you really don't smear us residents, "one mate" with this rubbish, real war criminals, voluntary and "on call"!)! request
    For some reason, they also dragged Alexander Marinesko, dragged him by the ears, in the best traditions of "universal" propagandons ?! Is it just him ?!
    Somehow I could not even imagine that the "historical writer" A. Pishenkov could have such a liberal "mess in his head", he always had a better opinion of you, Alexey! request