Russia's refusal from the Chinese CR929 gives the future to the domestic liner Il-96

Russia's refusal from the Chinese CR929 gives the future to the domestic liner Il-96

As you know, a friend in trouble is known. As well as possible, this proverb fits some of the nuances of business relations between Russia and China. On the eve it became known that our country is reducing its share in the project of the promising wide-body long-haul airliner CR929. And not on their own initiative. How did it happen, who is to blame and what to do now?


Could something have gone wrong?



First you need to figure out what this plane is. CR929 is a joint Russian-Chinese project of a wide-body long-haul airliner with a capacity of 250-300 passengers, depending on the configuration. It is planned to create three versions: the younger one for 230 seats, the middle one for 280 passengers and the older one for all 320. The signing of an agreement on the creation of a promising liner took place in 2014, during our pathetic “turn to the East”. The shares of Russia and China in the project are 50% each, its total cost is estimated at 13-20 billion dollars.

A few days ago, the relevant Deputy Prime Minister Yury Borisov, during the plenary session of the Engineers of the Future forum, stated verbatim the following:

We are working with China on this project, which, in principle, is not proceeding in the direction that suits us. China, as it becomes an industrial giant, is less and less interested in our services, we have our own design bureau, we have vast experience in TsAGI. But the Chinese have more needs than we have today. Our participation is getting smaller and smaller. I do not want to predict the future of this project - whether we will leave it or not, but for now it is in fact going on.


What could have gone wrong? And at this moment I would like to remember the publication of under the telling title "What if China throws Russia with the CR929 liner?", which was released on September 1, 2019. In it, we quite reasonably indicated that Russia is a junior partner in this project, since China attracted it only because of the presence of certain competencies that have been preserved since Soviet times. Our country participates in the project, mainly with intellectual property, since it has experience in the production of Il-96 wide-body airliners, as well as with money. In reality, these long-haul aircraft will be assembled in China from Chinese components, and only composite wings and, in the medium term, super-powerful PD-35 aircraft engines, when they are put on the conveyor, will be Russian.

We also drew attention to the fact that the main sales market will be in China, and it is estimated at 1200 aircraft in the next few decades, while domestic demand for such wide-body aircraft is, according to various estimates, 50-120 aircraft. Even then, in 2019, rumors leaked to the press that Beijing wanted to share sales of CR929 airliners manufactured in China and Russia. All of this has led us to reasonably ask the following question:

The documentation for the liner is good, the wings too, but this is perhaps all that will be on hand if the PRC suddenly decides to go its own way. They will make wings themselves, if necessary, we cannot even prohibit the supply of aircraft engines to them, since we simply don’t have PD-35s in stock ... What will Russia do if Beijing stops needing its services?


Despite the validity of these fears, of course, no one heeded them. Moreover, a “rebuttal article” was published in the domestic blogosphere, where, allegedly, its main theses were “understood by the bones” very witty. If desired, this "intellectual work" can be found by keywords, by entering the name of the original publication and the author's name into the search, read it and smile sadly.

But back to our sheep. The feeling of anxiety for the domestic aviation industry prompted us to turn to this topic again and write another "prophetic" Article titled “Instead of the “Chinese” CR929, Russia needs its own Il-96-400M”, which was published on September 3, 2021. In it, the author of the lines repeatedly pointed out the extremely dubious prospects for our country's participation in such a joint project, which in fact is an expensive "gift" to Chinese partners of technologies construction of wide-body airliners owned by a very narrow club of aircraft manufacturers.

As they say, if you criticize - offer, and we proposed, long before the introduction of Western crippling sectoral sanctions, to focus not on small-scale localization of CR929 in our country and not on a senseless attempt to compete with the cheaper and mass-produced Chinese version of CR929 on the international market, but on bringing to the mind of its own wide-body airliner IL-96, for which, fortunately, there is all the necessary component base. It is so good and safe that the President of the Russian Federation and the Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation fly on it in the Il-96-300 version. Its main problem is fuel efficiency, which could be solved at the initial stage by starting mass production of more economical PS-90A3 aircraft engines, and later - the transition to heavy-duty PD-35, which can be installed two per aircraft instead of four.

I remember that at that time such proposals caused a sharp rejection among a certain audience, who devoutly believed in the infallibility of the "general line". Like, where are you with your snout in the Kalash row? There are smarter people who know better. Well, subsequent events, when the United States and the European Union imposed sectoral sanctions, banning the sale of new airliners to Russia and servicing those already sold, proved the justice of the fact that one should not depend either on the collective West or on China.

Suddenly turned outthat our country needed "Soviet galoshes" in the form of medium-haul Tu-214 and long-haul Il-96. The latter has already begun to be produced in small batches, not only for the needs of the Special Flight Detachment. After the Chinese comrades nevertheless “threw” us with the CR929, taking everything they needed, Russia will remain with the Il-96, which will become the basis for further deep modernization of the wide-body airliner, which was obvious many years ago.
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  1. steelmaker Offline steelmaker
    steelmaker 2 July 2022 14: 45
    +3
    China has abandoned Russia. And many here do not reach - mediocrity rules! At least once, our mediocrity, they threw someone. For the sake of the interests of the country and the people.
    1. Shelest2000 Offline Shelest2000
      Shelest2000 2 July 2022 18: 00
      +5
      They threw. But only for their own selfish interests. Suffice it to recall the GDR, Cuba, Yugoslavia ...
    2. Sultan Kogan Offline Sultan Kogan
      Sultan Kogan (Sultan Kogan) 3 July 2022 10: 44
      +6
      It was the USSR that threw China at one time, when all the undertakings that allowed the country to develop collapsed. Khrushchev came and began to talk through his lips with the Chinese, also announcing the alleged personality cult of Stalin, who was respected in China, respected and will be respected. There is nothing to blame on the mirror, if the face is crooked. We licked the West for 30 years, and now China should fall into our arms?? Trust must be earned. And it's even better to stop dealing with garbage and raise your production within the country, we have all the resources for this.
      1. Tourist Offline Tourist
        Tourist (tourist) 3 July 2022 23: 03
        +1
        about Khrushchev's quarrel with China and the love of the Chinese for Stalin, this is another tale for jingoistic patriots. Wake up - China is simply not our friend. They are their own friend. And we took away large territories from them in the 19th century. Damansky did not come from the fact that Stilin's personality cult was condemned in the USSR. China was quite friendly with the United States in defiance of us, supported the Mujahideen in Afghanistan.
        1. bobba94 Offline bobba94
          bobba94 (Vladimir) 7 July 2022 22: 06
          +1
          According to the Aigun Treaty of 01.06.1858/02.11.1860/165,9 and the Beijing Treaty of XNUMX/XNUMX/XNUMX, Russia annexed XNUMX thousand square meters. km of lands of Primorye, which were previously partly in the possession of the Qing Empire (China), partly in the joint administration of Russia and China. At that time, even Russian diplomats in their circle called these treaties predatory and humiliating for China. At that time, China was experiencing difficult times, there was unrest in the country, peasant uprisings and the intervention of Great Britain, the USA, Germany, France and, of course, Russia .....
      2. whitebeard Online whitebeard
        whitebeard 8 July 2022 20: 13
        0
        Khrushchev at first helped Maoist China with engineers, technologies, factories, arms supplies, and, most importantly, he gave China a vigorous loaf and atomic power in general)) Actually, only Deng Xiaoping did more for China)) But relations deteriorated because of Mao himself, who did not appreciate all this help (under the good tradition of the allies of the USSR and the Russian Federation in the future) and was offended by the debunking of the cult of personality, because he was afraid that they would begin to debunk him in China, looking at his crazy and ineffective "experiments "))) One can argue about the recklessness of Khrushchev's disclosure of the partial truth about Stalin's crimes - because apart from political changes, the economy has changed a little and is too voluntaristic, also inefficient; Gorbi then went the same way, not daring to undertake much more necessary economic reforms at first, starting the political liberation of the hungry people, who did not become more satisfying from this. But the fact that Khrushch is not to blame for the quarrel with China, at least directly - that's for sure, here Mao himself got scared
    3. igor.igorev Offline igor.igorev
      igor.igorev (Igor) 3 July 2022 23: 08
      +1
      China dumped Russia? Why do you think so? Here we rather threw the Chinese. We understood in time what the Chinese want from us. And they want a lot, they want to get the engine production technology for this aircraft. By the way, we are developing the engine. They do not want to buy engines, they want to completely manufacture them at home. This is where our participation in the project ended. No one will sell engine technology to the Chinese. Neither we, nor the Americans, nor the Europeans. And in 100 years they themselves will be able to create engines for this aircraft. And given the new realities, we do not need many aircraft of this class. We'll be fine with ours. A plane without engines is a pile of scrap metal.
  2. mark1 Offline mark1
    mark1 2 July 2022 15: 04
    +7
    IL-96-400 with PD-35 is of course good ... WOULD. But the experience of previous years and events shows that there is a great risk of first shifting to the right and then simply stupidly curtailing the program - first the PD-35 (they will find a plausible excuse) and then the IL-96 in its original form. Sometimes, with particular acuteness, you feel how much we lack in some aspects of the life of Lavrenty Pavlovich and Iosif Vissarionovich.
    By the way, the black wing could be adapted with modifications and for the 96th and denyuzhki WOULD not be lost.
    1. Orange bigg Offline Orange bigg
      Orange bigg (Alexander ) 3 July 2022 19: 30
      0
      But the experience of previous years and events shows that there is a great risk of first shifting to the right and then simply stupidly curtailing the program - first the PD-35 (they will find a plausible excuse) and then the IL-96 in its original form.

      Next year, the first PD-35 in iron will be assembled. Tests at the stand in 2024. So it will not be curtailed anymore. Il-96-400M should take off in a couple of months.
      1. mark1 Offline mark1
        mark1 3 July 2022 20: 23
        +2
        Quote: OrangeBigg
        Next year they will assemble the first PD-35 in iron .... ... So they won’t be curtailed anymore

        I see no obstacles, remember the story of the NK-93, it was brought to a flying laboratory, and what? .. .. and that's all ... now they are telling how "raw" and no one needed this product
      2. aslanxnumx Offline aslanxnumx
        aslanxnumx (Aslan) 4 July 2022 12: 56
        0
        They took a project from the times of the USSR, stuck in a couple of stray and here is a new engine for a couple of billions. The question is whether it will work.
        1. Orange bigg Offline Orange bigg
          Orange bigg (Alexander ) 4 July 2022 16: 58
          0
          Quote: aslan642
          They took a project from the times of the USSR, stuck in a couple of stray and here is a new engine for a couple of billions. The question is whether it will work.

          What an interesting project from the times of the USSR they took? PD-35, the development of which started from scratch in 2017, since the Union never made aircraft engines for 35 tons of thrust. The most powerful serial aircraft engine in the Union is the D-18T with a thrust of almost 24 tons.
          Or do you think the CR-929 is a project from the times of the USSR? The CR-929 project started from scratch in 2014.
    2. igor.igorev Offline igor.igorev
      igor.igorev (Igor) 3 July 2022 23: 12
      0
      To put the PD-35 on the Il-96-400, you need neither more nor less, but to completely replace the planes of the aircraft and recalculate everything, and then certify. Do not talk nonsense if you do not understand anything in aviation. It is cheaper to create another aircraft than to remake the Il-96-400. This aircraft will be produced with 4 engines. In sum, they only eat slightly more kerosene than 2 engines, but much larger. For an oil-producing country, this is not critical at all.
      1. mark1 Offline mark1
        mark1 4 July 2022 07: 12
        +1
        Of course, this will be a different aircraft, but it will be produced using the available equipment, technologies, production lines, technical solutions and many parts and assemblies - this is the time. Now we are developing key components for our money - the engine and the wing, i.e. money is already being spent, it remains to use the result with maximum return - these are two.
        The fact that from the beginning the IL-96-400 will go into the series in its original configuration, no one doubts this and the reasons are not a secret for anyone - these are three
        Visiting aviation forums is not a reason to think that you understand aviation more than others, inflated self-esteem and arrogance have not decorated anyone yet - these are four
        1. igor.igorev Offline igor.igorev
          igor.igorev (Igor) 9 August 2022 14: 46
          0
          I haven’t visited aviation forums for a long time, all normal people left there a long time ago, only juvenile idiots remained. And by profession an aviation mechanical engineer, at first he was in the SD, and then for more than 20 years in the VD. The engines will be brought to mind for another 10 years, it will not work before. In general, the difference in fuel consumption with 4 engines compared to two is not much different.
      2. whitebeard Online whitebeard
        whitebeard 8 July 2022 20: 16
        0
        An oil-producing country and cheap jet fuel are 2 big and 4 small differences;) because in our market there is a cartel conspiracy of oilmen, our kerosene is more expensive for airlines than in Europe;) So it is possible that the 96th with 4 dviglas will not be taken , especially since he needs to modernize everything - both the interior and the avionics.
  3. Alexfly Offline Alexfly
    Alexfly (Alexander) 2 July 2022 15: 09
    +1
    Cargo versions are also needed, for transportation over long distances ... and not 100 pieces, but more than that ..
  4. Chevrolet Camaro (Nikolay Lukashev) 2 July 2022 16: 48
    +3
    With China, alas, we are not on the way
  5. yakisam Offline yakisam
    yakisam (Alexander) 2 July 2022 18: 10
    +4
    China threw Russia
    Yes, the Chinese bourgeoisie does not need competitors, even if it is the Russian bourgeoisie, which is proud of its right to trade in Soviet technologies
    Why should it be otherwise?
    Sergey, you are a very well-educated person
    But your idealism surprises me
    And why did you decide that what you call "Russia" needs hundreds of aircraft? So that they fly ... that social group that "true patriots" call from the letter "B" to the letter "O" with intermediate "IDL"? Well, well ... The leadership of Russia does not need the presence of thousands of aircraft in Russia, it is enough for them to have a "renewed" "small-scale" one. They do not need a "profitable" civil aviation - they agree to a "unprofitable" one - it will also carry a solvent layer.
    So the Russian bourgeoisie and its government were not going to cooperate with China in the development of an aircraft for RUSSIA. They just gave the Chinese bourgeoisie the missing technology, got their own (you know how) and that's it.
    But I'm probably wrong. Then tomorrow the ILs and Tupolevs, as well as the Antonovs, will leave the conveyors, and the government will stop raising the cost of domestic aviation fuel for domestic passengers, and Ilyushin's question "why do we need super-complex fuel efficiency with cheap fuel" will penetrate the brain of at least some ....
  6. vlad127490 Offline vlad127490
    vlad127490 (Vlad Gor) 2 July 2022 20: 04
    +5
    Written in 2019. International cooperation is always dependent on someone, it works well when your country is strong and well developed. In a weak colonial society, international cooperation is aimed at pumping out resources, as the Russian Federation now feeds London and Washington. The release of IL-96 is the strategic goal of the Russian Federation and it is not correct to discuss how much kerosene he will eat in comparison with A or B. If you are chasing savings for the sake of the collapse of the development of your aviation, then take a horse, it eats hay and does not need kerosene. We do not compare the IL-96 with the planes of the NATO countries, whether it is good or bad. IL-96 we have one, what to discuss. Purchase, leasing of A and B for dollars, maintenance of $ 100 thousand / year without spare parts takes place for dollars, and IL-96 is all in rubles. Everything that is now bought abroad is bought with money for oil, gas, timber, etc., oil prices in the future will never cost $150, so the time will come very soon when there will be nothing to fly in the Russian Federation, no dollars. As everyone says we have a MARKET, capitalism. In order not to ride a cart, you need your own plane. We must always remember about NATO sanctions. All NATO planes are externally controlled, spare parts, serviced, so those planes that don't fly west will rot on the ground. Why airlines use planes from NATO countries. See who owns these airlines and where they are registered? All in the West. For example, "Russian Aeroflot", 51,173% of the shares belong to the shareholders of the Russian Federation, the rest to foreigners, if you start to wool the Russian shareholders, you will see that through third parties, the shares of the Russian Federation belong to NATO and so on for all airlines, airports, i.e. they are all foreign. Without a government shout, no airline will operate a Russian aircraft, even if it is the best in the world in all respects. A and B will not be allowed. The state is obliged to lobby the interests of the Russian Federation. The Government of the Russian Federation is obliged to subsidize, on domestic flights, tickets for Russian-made aircraft, tickets should cost 25% cheaper than for foreign aircraft. Let the passenger choose for himself which one to fly, Russian or foreign.
    In civil aviation, the safety and comfort of passengers must come first. Capitalism puts in the first place the extraction of profit from everything, the use of 2 economical engines, etc. Four engines on the IL-96 are safer than two on A or B, but less economical. The number of engines on the plane is not the main thing, the main thing is that there is no line of modern engines in the Russian Federation.
    1. Ibuprofen Offline Ibuprofen
      Ibuprofen (Novel) 3 July 2022 20: 14
      -3
      Quote: vlad127490
      Four engines on IL-96 are safer than two on A or B,

      Why do you think so? On the contrary, more motors - more likely to fail.
      And for the price of four motors - more than two.
      And to service and repair four motors is twice as expensive as two.
      1. mark1 Offline mark1
        mark1 3 July 2022 20: 33
        0
        Quote: IbuProPro
        more motors - more chance of failure.

        Haha!!! The most reliable single-engine aircraft (at least according to your logic)
        1. Ibuprofen Offline Ibuprofen
          Ibuprofen (Novel) 3 July 2022 20: 57
          -3
          Exactly. Mathematics in general is sometimes a strange science.
      2. vlad127490 Offline vlad127490
        vlad127490 (Vlad Gor) 3 July 2022 23: 52
        0
        In the 1960s, an IL-18 flew from Khabarovsk, its three engines stopped and it flew for three hours on one to Novosibirsk. They even made a movie about this flight.
        So, for example, for twin-engine aircraft (and they are actively replacing three- and four-engine ones), ETOPS (Extended range twin engine operational performance standards) apply, which regulate route planning in such a way that the aircraft, crossing the oceans, deserts or poles, is at the same time within a certain flight time to the nearest airfield capable of receiving this type of aircraft. Thanks to this, if one of the engines fails, it will be guaranteed to reach the place of emergency landing. Different planes and airlines are certified for different flight times, it can be 60, 120 and even 180 minutes. Meanwhile, it is planned to certify the Airbus A350XWB for 350 minutes, and the Boeing-787 for 330; this will eliminate four-engine aircraft even on routes like Sydney-Santiago (the world's longest commercial route over the sea).
        1. 1_2 Offline 1_2
          1_2 (Ducks are flying) 4 July 2022 00: 49
          0
          2 engines - 2 fuel pumps, 4 engines - 4 fuel pumps ....
          it’s clear to the fool that if 2 pumps on the Boeing Airbus fail, the planes will fall, and if they fail on the IL96, the plane will fly to the nearest one and land
          1. Ibuprofen Offline Ibuprofen
            Ibuprofen (Novel) 4 July 2022 20: 49
            -2
            This is an absolutely incorrect assessment of the situation, similar to the "survivor's mistake".
            You are considering minor, minor malfunctions that do not affect the operation of other engines and other aircraft systems. They were characteristic of early, primitive engines, and this was one of the reasons for the installation of a large number of engines.
            But the engines improved, and these minor problems went down in history.
            Now think about the big problems. Which really threaten the plane. For example, some kind of break in the fuel pipe in the engine or something else. Fire, in short. The fire extinguishing system did not cope or did not work, the hydraulic system pipes burned out, well, damn the whole plane. It doesn't matter on which engine, one is enough, even the first, even the fourth.
            So. There are two options - one has 2 such potential causes for emergencies, the other has 4. Which one is safer?
            Addition - the second one, which has four motors, they are outdated of the previous generation. With more constructive jambs corrected in the following developments.
        2. Ibuprofen Offline Ibuprofen
          Ibuprofen (Novel) 4 July 2022 20: 57
          -1
          You misunderstand the essence of ETOPS. Yes, it's about engine failure. But on the second engine, the plane can fly as much as you like, and not these 60, 120 minutes. These figures show how far you can move away from the airfield in terms of the reliability of the second engine in case of failure of the first.
    2. aslanxnumx Offline aslanxnumx
      aslanxnumx (Aslan) 4 July 2022 13: 04
      0
      We have a victory over Japan, ousted from Sakhalin -2, and how many other countries own our wealth. All large companies are registered abroad. Even Sberbank. And the home-grown capitalist got everything for darma. The dollar rose in price, everything rose in price, the dollar fell again, everything rose in price. That's the whole point of our economy.
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  8. Sergey Latyshev Offline Sergey Latyshev
    Sergey Latyshev (Serge) 2 July 2022 21: 33
    0
    IMHO, it looks like we screwed up here.

    Specifically, what is wrong is not written, but the phrase

    But the Chinese have more needs than we have today.

    can be interpreted as follows - we cannot make wings and mechanics.
    (remember the newly developed IL that fell and the promises to make a composite wing for domestic aircraft only in the future)

    Because like everyone else - we are 100, they are 1000 - this is not the reason.
    Planes are not distributed for nothing, but for money. With plans, contracts, etc.
    They made 1500 pairs of wings and sold them to China - well done. We couldn't do it, which means that competencies have been lost and the Chinese will consider us a neo-colonial country. They are wood, gas, oil, coal ..... and in response, beads and electronics ...
  9. Jacques sekavar Offline Jacques sekavar
    Jacques sekavar (Jacques Sekavar) 3 July 2022 00: 02
    0
    Silt was developed in the last century, the resource of its modernization is not endless. The aircraft is needed by both the Russian Federation and the PRC. It is larger and more capacious than Il, and with our distances this is very useful - in the Trans-Ural regions, air transportation and airfields cost the budget less than the cost of building and operating roads in permafrost conditions.
    Under the threat of sanctions, the PRC curtails cooperation with the Russian Federation with high-tech goods and shares of 50% do not suit the PRC, especially since their need is many times greater, which means that in the event of sanctions, the PRC will suffer many times more damage.
    1. 1_2 Offline 1_2
      1_2 (Ducks are flying) 4 July 2022 01: 16
      0
      the Chinese have only advantages from cooperation with the Russian Federation, but it is not known where they will put 1,5 trillion junk dollars, consider plowed and sold their goods to the United States for nothing for candy wrappers, because the Americans can stupidly confiscate these 1,5 trillion in debt papers, like from the Russian Federation
  10. nikanikolich Offline nikanikolich
    nikanikolich (nikola) 3 July 2022 13: 13
    +4
    The Chinese got what they wanted. What do you want? Love is carrots and beautiful children? No, this is not about the Chinese. Do not forget that China is a sovereign state and they don’t give a damn about Russia and America combined, their well-being is important to them and they won’t fight for ideas, they have already fought and realized that they can defend their interests "without noise and dust."
  11. faiver Offline faiver
    faiver (Andrei) 3 July 2022 13: 57
    +1
    It is so good and safe that the President of the Russian Federation and the Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation fly on it in the Il-96-300 version.

    - I apologize to the author, but these words are complete bullshit. Firstly, the planes of the first persons of the state are on special service, so Putin and Shoigu could fly on the ancient Tu-104 with the appropriate service. Secondly, the so-called reliability of these aircraft is due to the small number of aircraft produced and, accordingly, the small total flight hours in the air.
    And with the Chinese, I think they themselves set themselves up and screwed up, I fully suspect that they undertook obligations and did not fulfill them on time. They won't tell us the truth...
  12. Velmi Shin Offline Velmi Shin
    Velmi Shin (Velmi Shin) 3 July 2022 15: 08
    +3
    They hoped that China would become an alternate airfield for them, if anything. Therefore, they drive everything there for cheap. But they understood from the latest events that the Chinese will hand over everyone with pleasure, if only not to conflict with anyone. This ability of the Chinese to "stand to the death" is confirmed by their huge number.
    1. zuuukoo Offline zuuukoo
      zuuukoo (Sergei) 7 July 2022 12: 53
      -1
      And why and for whom should China exacerbate its problems with the United States? Si hands of China and he MUST think first of all about the interests of China (suddenly!). And not about the interests of those who 10 years ago licked Washington with might and main. Yes, even a year ago we invested our gold reserves in Washington! Why should China believe and help a political prostitute?
  13. nikanikolich Offline nikanikolich
    nikanikolich (nikola) 3 July 2022 15: 16
    +2
    China is a VIP prostitute, and she enjoys and at the same time demands money for the "work" done
    1. aslanxnumx Offline aslanxnumx
      aslanxnumx (Aslan) 4 July 2022 13: 08
      +1
      And we're just not Vipprostitutka used and thrown.
  14. horseradish Offline horseradish
    horseradish 3 July 2022 17: 20
    -1
    With our kindness, we do ourselves more harm than good.
    1. Vox Populi Offline Vox Populi
      Vox Populi (vox populi) 3 July 2022 20: 15
      0
      Who are these "we" and what kindness are we talking about?
  15. jekasimf Offline jekasimf
    jekasimf (jekasimf) 3 July 2022 18: 46
    +4
    And what is the scam? We gave them engines? No. So why do they need us ?! Before you shout about scammers, you need to create something sensible and offer.
    1. faiver Offline faiver
      faiver (Andrei) 3 July 2022 19: 05
      +2
      I’m talking about this, most likely they took on obligations and did not fulfill them, but what for the Chinese have such partners? After all, the Deputy Prime Minister will not say that even there our deadlines began to be shifted to the right, and the Chinese don’t need to explain anything to 140 million Russians ....
      1. Ibuprofen Offline Ibuprofen
        Ibuprofen (Novel) 3 July 2022 21: 58
        -3
        "140 million Russians" is a propaganda cartoon. In reality, according to indirect data - a little more than a hundred.
        1. Orange bigg Offline Orange bigg
          Orange bigg (Alexander ) 4 July 2022 07: 57
          +1
          Quote: IbuProPro
          "140 million Russians" is a propaganda cartoon. In reality, according to indirect data - a little more than a hundred.

          Do not invent.

          According to the current accounting, as of January 1, 2022, the population of the Russian Federation amounted to 145,5 million people.

          https://maxpark.com/community/7285/content/7616665
  16. Vox Populi Offline Vox Populi
    Vox Populi (vox populi) 3 July 2022 20: 17
    +1
    Quote from an article about aircraft engines / import substitution (APN):

    From the very first column of the table of this plan, a curious reader can find out the shocking news that in the PD-14 aircraft engine, as of 2020, the share of domestic products was only zero (0) percent (!) And only by 2024 is it planned to bring it up to 90-100%.
    But it is this engine (PD-14) that is presented to us as the pride of our engine builders and the first turbofan engine created in modern Russia. And it is he who is the crown of import substitution of engines of the American company Pratt & Whitney on the MS-21-300 aircraft. But from the attached document it turns out that the engine created in Russia to replace the imported one is 100% dependent on imports?! How is this possible? Maybe there is an error in the document of the Ministry of Industry and Trade? But is such a glaring mistake acceptable in a document of this level?! With what degree of irresponsibility should one treat the performance of official duties by state civil servants who include the PD-14 engine in a number of completely imported products? Or is it a demonstration of the sabotage of the process and its deliberate caricature?
    In early March of this year, the Ministry of Industry and Trade announced the acceleration of import substitution of the SSJ 100. The plans are to increase production to 40 aircraft per year, and it is also said that this model will receive a domestic PD-8 engine, which they expect to certify in 12-14 months.
    Obviously, this statement is also designed for the mass of ordinary people who should believe that everything in aviation is “under control” and is about to “get better”. In general, to maintain a healthy socio-psychological climate, this can be a good thing. But what will happen in the end? In the import substitution plan of the 2021 model, there was not even a line about the import substitution of the engine of this aircraft (see paragraph 3 of the table). There is an item about the auxiliary power unit (see paragraph 3.2), but not a word about the engine.
    1. Ibuprofen Offline Ibuprofen
      Ibuprofen (Novel) 3 July 2022 22: 01
      -3
      PD-14 is an excellent motor. According to the rules of the early 2000s.
      Compared to LEAP or PW1000, it is outdated.
      1. 1_2 Offline 1_2
        1_2 (Ducks are flying) 4 July 2022 01: 12
        -1
        how is it outdated? so that it does not fall off, does not catch fire and does not collapse in the air, like crafts from the West?
        1. Ibuprofen Offline Ibuprofen
          Ibuprofen (Novel) 4 July 2022 21: 09
          -1
          Certainly not destroyed and does not fall off. He doesn't fly.
      2. Orange bigg Offline Orange bigg
        Orange bigg (Alexander ) 4 July 2022 08: 07
        0
        Quote: IbuProPro
        PD-14 is an excellent motor. According to the rules of the early 2000s.
        Compared to LEAP or PW1000, it is outdated.

        I wonder why it's outdated?

        1. Ibuprofen Offline Ibuprofen
          Ibuprofen (Novel) 4 July 2022 20: 17
          -1
          Well, there, even according to this plate, his parameters are the weakest.
          And there are other parameters - the price, which will be prohibitive, many times more expensive than Lip and Pratt. And not only the purchase price, but also the price of ownership - service, repair, spare parts, staff training. This results from a small number of engines, when some non-scalable costs are divided by a small amount of output.
          And there is another problem worse than well-established logistics, our aircraft manufacturers think that they just need to make an airplane and sell it, they got the money - and even though the grass does not grow. And with the service, let the client deal with it somehow. Damned A and B on the service and parts make about the same profit as on the airplanes themselves.
  17. Ibuprofen Offline Ibuprofen
    Ibuprofen (Novel) 3 July 2022 20: 38
    -5
    The best thing to do with the IL-96 project is to archive it and score with relief. Not good for anything else. He was originally "not very", back in the 80s, and now he is generally no good at all. All attempts to draw some kind of prospects for this project come from potential criminals, embezzlers of public funds who dream of plundering the budget.
  18. Ibuprofen Offline Ibuprofen
    Ibuprofen (Novel) 3 July 2022 22: 26
    0
    In my opinion, the person who wrote this article does not understand at all what it is about. What the hell are 1000 boards for China ???? What are 100 for Russia?? Wide-body aircraft are not built in such quantities, these are piece orders! The world's most popular A330 and B777 over their entire nearly thirty-year history have produced approximately 1500 each of all modifications in total.

    And now the demand for them is still falling, with the release of the A321neo XLR, which can fly the same routes as the "fat" ones, but with fewer passengers and at lower costs.
    Boeing is also sawing with might and main to replace the 757 medium-range aircraft, this is a new trend that ours have not yet caught.
    1. vlad127490 Offline vlad127490
      vlad127490 (Vlad Gor) 4 July 2022 00: 04
      0
      What Russian narrow-body aircraft will you put on the St. Petersburg - Vladivostok line?
      1. 1_2 Offline 1_2
        1_2 (Ducks are flying) 4 July 2022 01: 07
        0
        Moscow-Vladivostok fly Tu204, if Leningraders need to go to Vladik, let them get to Moscow first
      2. Ibuprofen Offline Ibuprofen
        Ibuprofen (Novel) 4 July 2022 21: 08
        -2
        In order to provide the line Peter - Vladik, 2 aircraft are needed.
        And 4 more from Moscow. Well, to Khabarovsk, Petropavlovsk and other Far Eastern cities. In total - a dozen and a half aircraft. Therefore, the correct answer is A321 XLR. This is just his route, it was developed for such people. To develop and deploy the production of aircraft in such quantities is a rare idiocy or an economic crime.
  19. 1_2 Offline 1_2
    1_2 (Ducks are flying) 4 July 2022 01: 01
    +3
    In China, the population is almost 1,5 billion, and there the CCP is thinking about reducing poverty, unemployment, etc. and what is needed for this? .. right, you need work with a decent salary, so the Chinese want to produce everything themselves, but they cannot develop everything, for example, civilian an aircraft and an aircraft engine, they would be happy with their analogue even Tu134, but it’s not yet fate to make it, and we have been flying Tu30-204 (IL214) in single quantities for 96 years, and Putin’s liberals do not see them at point blank range (he stubbornly does not appoints, apparently afraid of real patriots of the Russian Federation because they are all left-wing), but for him the development of the industry of the Russian Federation and domestic politics in general is not his royal business, he is a world-class personality and must solve exclusively world problems)) well, sometimes he will advise where the next pipe throw, here SP2 threw and ... by
  20. House 25 Sq. 380 (House 25 Sq. 380) 4 July 2022 16: 17
    -1
    In the world of "serious boys", the thesis is first stated ("presenting"), and then the arguments ("proof") are substantiated...
    There is none of this in the article - clickbait!
    request

    But, most importantly, not even that!
    Marzhetsky could not tell the "enlightened public": what is the share foreign components in the Chinese part of the project?
  21. hello Offline hello
    hello (LEO St) 5 July 2022 02: 27
    0
    I tried to retell a message from China using a translation program

    1, This is not our first conflict, a few years ago there were rumors on the Chinese Internet that the two countries could not agree on a joint project.

    2, the conflict mainly arises from the distribution of benefits from the project.

    3, the market for CR929 is narrow, and the newborn cannot compete with Boeing and Airbus in the international market. Only China and Russia will buy it, perhaps Southeast Asia and the five countries of Central Asia, but not too many.

    4, A contradiction has arisen! Much more will be sold on the Chinese market than on the Russian one. In the eyes of the Chinese, Russia is involved, which is unfair, Russia is sharing the pie of the big Chinese market. And China has nothing to gain in terms of technology.

    5, China wanted access to certain technologies as compensation in some projects for which Russia was responsible. (Not engines, experience in designing widebody aircraft is what China needs, it would save us a lot of research time) and as you can imagine, Russia refused.

    6, This was our first conflict a few years ago, but then, apparently, a compromise was reached between the two countries, and the project continues.

    7, This time there is no more information, probably related to sanctions, and some subsystems can no longer be purchased on the international market. The project is dangerous.
  22. Ingvar7 Offline Ingvar7
    Ingvar7 (Ingvar Miller) 6 July 2022 10: 31
    0
    The Russian naive vanka participated in the intellect - users will still dance on Russian bones.
  23. wladimirjankov Offline wladimirjankov
    wladimirjankov (Vladimir Yankov) 12 July 2022 13: 27
    0
    Yes, from the very beginning it was clear that this was not a profitable deal for us. Entering it made sense only on equal terms. That is, we invest equally in development, production, and then we also share all the profits from sales in equal shares. And so it turns out according to this crooked agreement, imposed on us by the Chinese and signed by our stupid and corrupt officials in the government, we invest in the project 50 to 50, and all the profits of aircraft produced in China remain with them. And the main production facilities will be built there. The stupidity is incredible. We are simply used by the Chinese as the last suckers, and then they will be thrown out as unnecessary. I remember with what pomp these same officials and leaders of the country spoke about this project, about its importance and profitability. In China, for such cases in relation to their country, such figures would simply be put up against the wall, but in our country they will not bear any responsibility, they will not even be scolded. Therefore, the mess in Russia will continue to continue.