Why Russia should order a series of corvettes, frigates and destroyers from China


The special military operation revealed a number of serious problems for the Russian army, for example, an acute shortage of drones, which, as it were, exist, but mostly in single copies and depend on the use of imported components. With the navy, the situation is even more serious: there are too few combat-ready surface ships on the Black Sea, and there are questions about the effectiveness of their air defense system (PLO?). Having outlined the problems of the Russian Navy, about which we told Earlier, we will talk about possible ways to solve them.


It is necessary to be aware that after the collapse of the USSR and the rupture of industrial ties with Ukraine in 2014, Russia has largely lost its competence in the construction of large-tonnage surface ships. All our shipyards are filled with orders for many years to come, while the construction process itself tends to be continuously stretched, shifting the time for launching warships to the right. One corvette "Agile", which burned down last year in St. Petersburg, was built for eight whole years. Undoubtedly, the most severe sectoral sanctions imposed by the West on Russia for launching a military special operation in Ukraine will only aggravate the already difficult situation in the shipbuilding industry. Then what is left for us and how will the country solve this whole complex of the most difficult problems?

There are really only two options. The first is to rely on one's own strength, bite the bullet and consistently carry out import substitution, eliminate corruption schemes, expel pests and amateurs from the industry, optimize production processes, and so on. This must be done in any case, but we must understand that even so we will not quickly build a combat-ready navy. In the best scenario, this will take one and a half to two decades, and the war between Russia and the collective West has actually begun, and our ships are ingloriously sinking at sea.

For this reason, perhaps one should temper a little pride and seek external help from China, which is objectively in the same boat with us and has learned how to quickly build very decent warships, selling them, including for export. Let's see what of the products produced at Chinese shipyards, under certain conditions, could be useful to the Russian Navy.

Corvettes


The primary task of the navy is to protect the near sea zone, primarily from enemy submarines, and this requires specialized PLO corvettes. About how difficult the situation is with ships of this class in Russia, we told previously. Moreover, they even took the liberty of proposing to create a series of small PLO corvettes based on the Karakurt RTO, increasing its displacement by one and a half times. The idea seems to be quite sound, but the problem is that journalists and caring commentators talk about it privately, and not functionaries of the RF Ministry of Defense.

Another working option could be the purchase in China of a batch of Type-056 / 056A PLO corvettes in the export version. These ships of the near sea zone have a total displacement of 1500 tons, a speed of up to 28 knots and are made using of technologies stealth. The design, as some Russian admirals like it, is modular, which makes it easy to modify them to customer requirements. The armament of the corvette is represented by one 76-mm gun mount, four YJ-83 anti-ship missile launchers with a firing range of up to 160 km, an HQ-10 short-range air defense system with ammunition for 8 anti-aircraft missiles and two 324-mm triple-tube torpedo tubes, as well as a towed sonar.

On the "wunderwaffe", which should shock the "hegemon" and scare away his AUG, such a ship does not pull, but it is a real workhorse, really capable of protecting the Celestial Empire from American submarines. Simplicity and the optimal combination of price and quality have allowed China to rivet 72 corvettes (22 in the Type-056 version and 50 in the Type-056A version). A huge series that Russia cannot even dream of!

But why, in fact, not to dream? Chinese corvettes have already pleased customers from Thailand, Bangladesh, Nigeria, and Pakistan and Kazakhstan have also shown interest in acquiring them. What prevents Russia from ordering, for example, 10 "super-Karakurts" in the PLO version at its shipyards and another 10 Type-056A PLO corvettes in China? Chinese shipbuilders will easily build them according to the requirements of the Russian Navy, which is what the notorious modular design has. The Russian fleet will receive much-needed corvettes in the foreseeable future without the need to torture a ship with a displacement of 1500 tons every 7-8 years. We are already at war and are suffering painful losses, there is no time for pride and sentiment.

Frigates


No less important than corvettes, belonging to the patrol ships of the near sea zone, frigates are patrol ships of the far sea zone. Russia has developed a very successful frigate of project 22350 of the Admiral Gorshkov type, which meets all the requirements. There is only one problem, still the same: ships take too long to build! After the fire at the almost built Provorny near the Severnaya Verf berth, it became known that the Russian Defense Ministry had transferred an order for 6 frigates to the Amur Shipbuilding Plant. The step is right, but still, new frigates of project 22350 as part of the Russian Navy should not be expected quickly. What could China give us?

For the needs of the PLA, a series of Type-054/054A URO frigates was built. It is interesting for us that this ship also has “Russian genes”, since the Northern Design Bureau from St. Petersburg participated in its design. The total displacement of the ship is 4035 tons, the speed is 29 knots, the hull is made using stealth technologies, the power plant is French licensed. Guided missile weapons are located in a 32-cell vertical launch installation, which can also launch Yu-8 anti-submarine guided missiles, anti-aircraft missiles - HQ-16 missiles (a copy of our 9M317 "Shtil"). The 76mm gun mount on the nose is a copy of the Russian AK-176. The radar equipment of the Chinese frigate is also licensed copies of Russian analogues or variations on the theme. The ammunition load of anti-submarine rocket launchers is 36 missiles with a caliber of 240 mm. The Ka-28 anti-submarine helicopter or a Chinese equivalent is based on the deck.

In general, this is a fairly serious multi-purpose ship with obvious Russian "genes". The series is also impressive in its scale: the PLA has already received 32 URO frigates, and ordered 40 units in total. In this case, we are interested in the fact that Beijing is ready to build them to order. In particular, two Type-054A/P frigates in the export version have been laid down at Chinese shipyards for the needs of Pakistan. So why shouldn’t Russia, as an unofficial ally and a “shield” that China uses to hide from the United States, order a series of 6-8 Type-054A/P frigates from China, adapted to the requirements of the Russian Navy? We note in particular that no one proposes to abandon the construction of project 22350.

Destroyers


If everything is more or less clear with frigates, then there is no clarity at all with multi-purpose domestic destroyers. There is not even a clear understanding of what it should be. The semi-destroyer-semi-cruiser of the Leader project turned out to be too complicated and expensive. When the laying of the first "super-Gorshkov" project 22350M, which fits into the destroyer's displacement, is unknown. How much it will be built, one can only guess, but, apparently, for a long time.

In this case, we may be interested in a series of destroyers URO type 052D, of which the Chinese Navy should receive 25 units (24 are already in service). With a full displacement of 7500 tons, they have a maximum speed of 30 knots and carry powerful missile weapons in 64 universal launch cells, have an effective air defense and anti-aircraft defense system, as well as an anti-submarine helicopter. 4-6 such URO destroyers, made according to Russian standards, would undoubtedly be very useful in the Northern and Pacific Fleets.

There is nothing reprehensible in ordering warships abroad, the only question is who to contact with this. If to a country - a member of the NATO bloc, then it will all end in the end as with the French Mistrals. If we deal with sovereign China, with which Russia is objectively now in the same boat, then there are chances for timely fulfillment of the order. The only question is a political decision and constant monitoring of the quality and compliance with the requirements of the Russian Navy in the course of work.

With the help of Chinese shipbuilders, Russia can quickly acquire a completely modern and combat-ready ocean fleet.
133 comments
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  1. Bulanov Offline Bulanov
    Bulanov (Vladimir) 22 June 2022 14: 07
    +4
    And why not build ships in Nikolaev? The Nikolaev Shipbuilding Institute was there until recently. After the Second World War, the shipyards of Nikolaev were rebuilt quickly enough. Maybe the population of Nikolaev will be more cordially greeted by the RF Armed Forces if they find out that the city is waiting for huge military orders from Russia and prosperity? Or are they going to wage a 100-year war with Ukraine, and therefore it is better to order ships in China?
    1. kr33sania_2 Offline kr33sania_2
      kr33sania_2 (Alex Kraus) 22 June 2022 15: 25
      +1
      And when was the last time something similar was built in Nikolaev? And where are their specialists now AND FOR WHOM? And what, WE have already taken this city ???
    2. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
      Marzhecki (Sergei) 22 June 2022 15: 34
      +2
      I'm afraid that after the liberation of Nikolaev, nothing will remain from his shipyards. Everything will be multiplied by zero by the “defenders” themselves, so that we don’t get it.
      1. Orange bigg Offline Orange bigg
        Orange bigg (Alexander ) 22 June 2022 21: 42
        +5
        Quote: Marzhetsky
        I'm afraid that after the liberation of Nikolaev, nothing will remain from his shipyards. Everything will be multiplied by zero by the “defenders” themselves, so that we don’t get it.

        Why Russia should order a series of corvettes, frigates and destroyers from China

        Strongly against this. Everything should be done only by ourselves. Do not order anything either in the West or in the East. Otherwise, it’s like the new 90s, only instead of Western partners, Eastern partners. side, from a different angle. You don’t have to step on the same rake. Everything should be done only by yourself. Today the West imposed sanctions, and tomorrow the East. Since whoever supplies equipment to the army controls this army. So everything is just by ourselves. We have mastered the production of submarines, we will also master the production of ships.
        1. Hot Dyusha Offline Hot Dyusha
          Hot Dyusha (Dyusha) 22 June 2022 23: 39
          0
          We have supplied and are supplying quite a few military equipment to China. How much do we control their army? No need to invent nonsense. When equipment is needed not tomorrow, but yesterday, it is not a sin to buy it. How to buy steam locomotives, ships and so on. In peacetime, you can afford to choose a vector, in a military army you need weapons. And the state should give it
        2. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
          Marzhecki (Sergei) 23 June 2022 07: 20
          +1
          I am also not happy with the situation in which the country finds itself. But the war has already begun. The time for the buildup is over, mediocrely lost. The fleet has already lost three ships, and this is just the beginning. They won't come from nowhere.
          In the Great Patriotic War, the USSR did not disdain to fight on American technology, if not forgotten.
          PS
          notice, no one is suggesting curtailing their production. Let them build what they can. You just have to wait a long time for the result.
        3. Mikhail Krasyukov (Mikhail Krasyukov) 28 July 2022 19: 27
          0
          Do it yourself? Our hands do not grow from there, there are no specialists and there is nowhere to take it.
      2. IC Offline IC
        IC (PM) 22 June 2022 21: 58
        +1
        There has been almost nothing left for 30 years, incl. specialists.
    3. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
      Marzhecki (Sergei) 22 June 2022 16: 06
      0
      The Black Sea shipbuilding plant was liquidated last year, the equipment was disposed of.
      For some reason, our Zorya-Mashproekt "calibrated" ourselves.
      The Nikolaev shipbuilding Ukrainians themselves will blow up in the end.
      It was necessary to take Nikolaev, Kharkiv, Zaporozhye and Dnepropetrovsk in 2014, then these would have been valuable prizes. Now there are only ruins.
      And the question is, how much faster than ours will Nikolaev really build, even when the plants are restored?
      1. Dukhskrepny Offline Dukhskrepny
        Dukhskrepny (Vasya) 22 June 2022 16: 20
        0
        They cannot restore Russia, but why will Ukraine be raised?
        1. Avarron Offline Avarron
          Avarron (Sergei) 22 June 2022 17: 55
          0
          Why hasn't it been restored in Russia? What specifically does not suit you, you can find out? It seems that factories are working, roads are being built, people live well. What else do you need?
          1. Dukhskrepny Offline Dukhskrepny
            Dukhskrepny (Vasya) 22 June 2022 18: 57
            +1
            People are snickering. They live like in paradise
            1. Dart2027 Offline Dart2027
              Dart2027 22 June 2022 19: 10
              -1
              Quote: Spiritual
              People got burned.

              That's right.
          2. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
            Marzhecki (Sergei) 22 June 2022 20: 35
            +1
            A lot is broken, unfortunately.
    4. Dukhskrepny Offline Dukhskrepny
      Dukhskrepny (Vasya) 22 June 2022 16: 22
      +3
      Who led the country after the Second World War and who now? Will Manturov and Siluanov build something? Are you naive as a child
    5. IC Offline IC
      IC (PM) 22 June 2022 21: 55
      0
      Very interesting about the population of Nikolaev in the current situation.
    6. Materialist Offline Materialist
      Materialist (Michael) 23 June 2022 07: 36
      0
      One does not interfere . there is still nowhere to put the currency - the rate will soon reach zero
    7. Nikolaev is waiting for the fate of maryampopya, and finally - why raise the production of non-Russians?
  2. wolf46 Offline wolf46
    wolf46 22 June 2022 14: 15
    +2
    The main problem is the lack of a concept for the use of the fleet. Having solved the question "When and how to act for the fleet", it will significantly save financial resources and production capacity.
    1) NSNF are being updated, but who will cover them?
    2) I don’t understand the purpose of expanding the GUGI fleet, in particular, the Poseidon project.
  3. Sergey Latyshev Offline Sergey Latyshev
    Sergey Latyshev (Serge) 22 June 2022 14: 22
    0
    They just got out of the Kremlin's trap with an order for something in the West and Ukraine, and it is proposed to get into the trap to China

    Only recently they wrote how bad everything is done there, and here is a new victory ....
    1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
      Marzhecki (Sergei) 22 June 2022 16: 19
      0
      What is the essence of the trap? You place an order, you pay when it's done. Ship in the morning, money in the evening.
      At the same time, no one is suggesting that we stop building ourselves.
      Who wrote that everything is bad there? China is able to produce products of very different quality. All questions to the host.
      1. Sergey Latyshev Offline Sergey Latyshev
        Sergey Latyshev (Serge) 22 June 2022 19: 00
        +2
        Mistrals and engines from Ukraine....
        When ordering everything was fine...
        And when they received it, it suddenly felt bad ....

        And here they wrote that engines for the Navy from China are horror, they refused to purchase ...
        1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
          Marzhecki (Sergei) 22 June 2022 20: 34
          0
          And here they wrote that engines for the Navy from China are horror, they refused to purchase ...

          They simply tried to install a licensed version of the German engine for a CIVIL ship on a warship. If I don't confuse anything.
          The result is appropriate - the afterburner does not go.
  4. Sydor Kovpak Offline Sydor Kovpak
    Sydor Kovpak 22 June 2022 15: 13
    +1
    As I understand it, the question is not where to build and at what cost, but what to build.
    1. k7k8 Offline k7k8
      k7k8 (vic) 22 June 2022 15: 48
      +1
      You understand correctly
  5. k7k8 Offline k7k8
    k7k8 (vic) 22 June 2022 15: 15
    +2
    Why Russia should order a series of corvettes, frigates and destroyers from China

    And why, in fact, not? Import substitution should not be understood as a total desire to do everything yourself. Otherwise, as they say, "foolishly you can break the damn thing." It is quite possible to order cases in China, but adapt them to our filling. I do not think that there will be big problems with this, especially since there are a lot of references to "Russian genes".
  6. kr33sania_2 Offline kr33sania_2
    kr33sania_2 (Alex Kraus) 22 June 2022 15: 20
    +2
    We have no other choice. So you need to order DEFINITELY!
  7. zzdimk Offline zzdimk
    zzdimk 22 June 2022 15: 27
    +2
    Not! And again no! Why?
    Think for yourself.
    The simplest argument is that we also need jobs.
    1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
      Marzhecki (Sergei) 22 June 2022 15: 32
      0
      Our shipyards are filled with orders for years to come. From the fact that they are thrown more, they will not build faster.
      Nobody offers to take away orders from our people and fire people. We simply do not have a fleet, and it will not come from nowhere on its own.
      1. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
        Sapsan136 (Alexander) 22 June 2022 16: 19
        +4
        Well, maybe something should be nationalized and the ineffective thieving leadership should be fired and start asking factory managers for the failure to meet the delivery deadlines of ships and their components, because there are hostilities and not a weak salary that they put in their pocket, it's time to really start working out
        1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
          Marzhecki (Sergei) 22 June 2022 16: 33
          0
          I agree. I wrote about it right in the article.
          But you understand that all the same, the fleet will not be built quickly. And the war is ALREADY on, and there are ALREADY losses.
          1. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
            Sapsan136 (Alexander) 22 June 2022 16: 43
            +1
            Watching what and how to build. Frigates 11540 or 11541 can be built from rolled steel, which is much faster and cheaper than making a composite setting, which, as it turned out, is also extremely fire hazardous. Such a ship will have good survivability in battle, since steel does not burn, and bulkheads made of steel are much more reliable than duralumin ones. The armament of the frigate 11541 is 16 anti-ship missiles Uranus, or 12 anti-ship missiles Onyx, or Caliber, the air defense of the ship is provided by the marine version of the quite reliable air defense systems TOR, sharpened to combat low-altitude targets. There is a helicopter on the deck, which increases the chances of the ship in combat with submarines and allows you to fire anti-ship missiles at full range. As a regular ASW, the frigate carries quite relevant Vodopad missile-torpedoes.
            1. faiver Offline faiver
              faiver (Andrei) 22 June 2022 17: 30
              0
              why builds 40 year old watchdogs? Or do you think this will increase the speed of construction? we build one and a half thousand for FOUR years (in the best scenarios), and here a four-thousander, consider at least 6 years ....
              1. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
                Sapsan136 (Alexander) 22 June 2022 18: 35
                0
                Arleigh Burke is also not new, but quite a relevant project ... and in terms of survivability 11541 will surpass EVERYTHING that is now considered new, this is a project of the 90s ... quite relevant today. In any case, the TOR air defense system that stands on it is irreplaceable today. And the CICS can be updated and the radar from 22350 can be installed. if necessary ... The question is that the hull will be much cheaper and more reliable, and most importantly faster than all these, as it turned out, very fire hazardous composite superstructures ... which are expensive and difficult to manufacture ... and this is just not slightly delays the construction time ... Steel does not burn, and building from rolled steel is cheap and fast, and most importantly, reliable. Survivability in battle is a very useful thing ... The Chinese frigates 054A, which offer to buy here, are objectively inferior to both 11356 and 11540 and 11541 ... there is no novelty in them ... Chinese copy of the Shtil air defense system .... Better than the domestic original The Shtil air defense system (aka BUK) than the Chinese copy, or the original TOR air defense system, namely it stands at 11540 and should stand at 11541 ...
                1. faiver Offline faiver
                  faiver (Andrei) 22 June 2022 19: 29
                  0
                  deadlines, I agree that our weapons systems should be installed on ships, but we need a lot of ships yesterday, and not a few tomorrow ....
                  1. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
                    Sapsan136 (Alexander) 23 June 2022 08: 05
                    0
                    Giving our new technologies to China is stupid, Chinese hulls without weapons, which will need to be equipped and completed in the Russian Federation, will not speed up the construction of ships, and the quality, compared to 11541 fully built in the Russian Federation, will be lower, and survivability too
          2. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
            Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 22 June 2022 22: 21
            -3
            a completely failed idea to order surface ships in China, frigates and corvettes defenseless against mines, helpless targets like the cruiser Moscow ... without a concept for their use, ..... wouldn't it be better to just withdraw all frigates and large corvettes from the closed seas to the north and Kamchatka and continue construction at our shipyards ..... we lack minesweepers, rpksn, apl. coastal aviation PLO. and corvettes frigates are not so bad,
        2. Hot Dyusha Offline Hot Dyusha
          Hot Dyusha (Dyusha) 22 June 2022 23: 43
          -2
          From the fact that you plant or shoot someone, specialists will not appear. They need to be grown for 20 years, then they will start to give something. And the fleet is needed now
          1. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
            Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 23 June 2022 06: 19
            0
            you are not quite right, the problem is not that Russia has run out of talented inventors and simply adequate specialists who are able to corny use long-existing technologies and simply perform their duties, the problem is that such specialists have been ordered to lead positions occupied usually by professional careerist Jews. ... but how to solve such a control problem? for this we need a wise leader, a talent manager like IV Stalin, while we don’t see him, and we also don’t see the purge of messengers of careerist thieves, although Putin calls for this in words, a typical example is corruption in the traffic police, everything is covered and nothing can be done against an extortionist brazenly violating the law on the road, and moreover, the leadership of the Ministry of Internal Affairs itself deliberately creates corruption, increasingly tightening its requirements solely for extortion ..... in the regulations, why is there a ban on the transportation of passengers more than seats? Why are cars wider than 3m banned? why the requirement of a firmly fixed spare wheel in a regular place? who came up with this? Am I not allowed to carry a wheel in the cabin or in the trunk? and the suitcase has not yet been banned from being put in the cabin? all this is for corruption, and the State Tax Service, Rospotrebnadzor, the police department and 200 more different supervisions are also tightening regulations exclusively for extortion, creating a verification procedure such that they can be fined for anything, the courts do not work, there is no rule of law, thieves are not imprisoned, but citizens spread rot, this whole Yeltsin-Chubais system has not yet been dismantled and no progress is visible
    2. k7k8 Offline k7k8
      k7k8 (vic) 22 June 2022 15: 36
      -2
      Quote: zzdimk
      we need jobs too

      Naturally, they are needed. But to build a ship, especially a combat one, is not to roll a nut. Where will you find specialists, production capacities? Naturally, we need to grow our own shipbuilders and build up old and build new production facilities. But this is not a one day/month/year process. And the fleet is needed here yesterday.
      1. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
        Sapsan136 (Alexander) 22 June 2022 16: 21
        -1
        It would be more useful to buy in China not ships, but a turnkey shipyard and, if necessary, at first, invite Chinese specialists
        1. Avarron Offline Avarron
          Avarron (Sergei) 22 June 2022 17: 57
          0
          Then you can’t push these Chinese specialists out.
          1. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
            Sapsan136 (Alexander) 22 June 2022 18: 30
            -2
            You need to push the melon growers who sell drugs in the Russian Federation in the Russian Federation, since there is zero benefit from them, and harm by wagons, and engineers in the Russian Federation will not be superfluous.
            1. Dukhskrepny Offline Dukhskrepny
              Dukhskrepny (Vasya) 22 June 2022 18: 55
              0
              Just dope? Watermelons are being brought from Astrakhan. And who is making Russia drunk with them, what to do? So the melon growers prevent you from getting up from your knees? Or native rulers?
              1. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
                Sapsan136 (Alexander) 23 June 2022 08: 08
                0
                Do you think that all these so-called builders, who are also thrown at grandmothers at the construction sites of the Russian Federation by altruists and go to the Russian Federation to work hard for nothing?! And I didn’t write about Astrakhan now, you perfectly understood who I meant ... All this ethnic crime from the Russophobic countries of the former union in the Russian Federation is not needed by anyone, except for those who share with the bandits.
                1. Dukhskrepny Offline Dukhskrepny
                  Dukhskrepny (Vasya) 28 June 2022 17: 36
                  0
                  There are no more criminals among them than among the locals. And even fewer. Yes, and criminals are unlikely to plow at a construction site
                  1. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
                    Sapsan136 (Alexander) 29 June 2022 16: 37
                    0
                    Statistics show the opposite. Previously, criminal reports were broadcast on TV, naming the names of the defendants and the places where they came to us from ... Then they removed it, because it is compromising evidence on politicians who drown for the importation of migrants into the Russian Federation, who have not been needed here for a hundred years ...
      2. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 23 June 2022 06: 28
        +2
        i worked at a factory, in the Russian Federation there are a lot of locksmiths, welders, painters, just pay, the ship is not such a complex structure and all the technologies have long been worked out, if you transfer the northern shipyard, Admiraltesky, Srednevsky plant to three-shift work, then the production of ships can be tripled, there are workers, but they are not always satisfied with the salary, if they run up to pay more, but now it is more profitable for them to have water supply in the residential complex to cook what to build ships
    3. sgrabik Offline sgrabik
      sgrabik (Sergei) 23 June 2022 16: 56
      +1
      First of all, we urgently need combat-ready ships, and we just need them immediately, now, and not tomorrow or the day after tomorrow, we can develop our projects in parallel and gradually prepare for their mass production, but our Navy cannot wait that long, the environment does not allow waiting , so ordering ships in China is the best way out, but these ships need to be equipped with their own weapons systems.
  8. Kuramori Reika Offline Kuramori Reika
    Kuramori Reika (Kuramori Reika) 22 June 2022 15: 31
    +1
    If it takes 10 years instead of 5 for construction, then it will be 10 years. But the modernized factories and competence will remain on our territory, and not somewhere else. The US has already moved production to China, now they have lost generations of engineers.
    1. k7k8 Offline k7k8
      k7k8 (vic) 22 June 2022 15: 39
      +2
      Quote: Kuramori Reika
      now they have lost entire generations of engineers

      No need to indiscriminately find fault with the enemy. He needs to learn. Do not get into an offended pose and throw aside youthful maximalism. The United States has not lost generations of engineers - take the TV off your shoulders.
      1. Kuramori Reika Offline Kuramori Reika
        Kuramori Reika (Kuramori Reika) 22 June 2022 17: 31
        +2
        Lost. A prime example of this is the Zumwalt, the F-35, the CVN-78 aircraft carrier, rocket engines, submarine hulls and obsolete nuclear reactors, as well as the inability to build a plant to destroy chemical weapons or recycle nuclear waste. All they can do is collect various phones. The US engineering school has lost generations.
  9. zzdimk Offline zzdimk
    zzdimk 22 June 2022 15: 42
    -1
    Quote: Marzhetsky
    Our shipyards are filled with orders for years to come. From the fact that they are thrown more, they will not build faster.
    Nobody offers to take away orders from our people and fire people. We simply do not have a fleet, and it will not come from nowhere on its own.

    But! You can’t just give away technologies and blueprints. It's better to wait. Then we'll catch up.
    1. k7k8 Offline k7k8
      k7k8 (vic) 22 June 2022 15: 50
      0
      Quote: zzdimk
      But! You can’t just give away technologies and blueprints. It's better to wait. Then we'll catch up

      In the meantime, let's fight on rafts! And what? Cheap and cheerful - thank God, there is enough round timber in Siberia! :)
      1. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
        Sapsan136 (Alexander) 22 June 2022 16: 23
        0
        Let's start with the fact that the very concept of an anti-submarine ship without a helicopter on deck is outdated and ineffective. Using two ships, one as a PLO corvette, and the second as an air defense corvette, is also not effective, since you will have to build two ships instead of one and maintain 2 crews. What can be done to speed up the construction of warships, make them cheaper and less fire hazardous, and thus increase their survivability in battle. Somehow, in one film, the phrase sounded - A smart person does not need to invent something that has already been invented by others, just look at this invention and copy it for yourself. So what is abroad? Let's start with Germany. At one time, a series of budget frigates of the Brandenburg type was built in Germany. Here is what Wikipedia writes about their design - The German government decided to build four ships on June 28, 1989, preferring these frigates because of their low cost. Before assembly, the sections were saturated to the maximum extent possible with component equipment and systems. Most of them were completely manufactured at subcontractor factories. The ship's hull, superstructure, frigate masts are made of steel. Combustible materials, including light aluminum alloys, are excluded from the design and equipment of the interior. The length of the body is divided into 15 compartments. Separate large rooms are sealed autonomously and have emergency exits to the upper deck. This design is heavier and more difficult to manufacture than the traditional one, however, it is justified by an increase in the number of watertight circuits, which significantly increases the survivability of the ship in case of combat or navigational damage. A feature of the hull design is the presence of four shelter compartments, separated by explosion-proof double bulkheads. All compartments are equipped with autonomous fire-fighting and ventilation systems with vertical pipelines, as well as means of monitoring and control, data transmission and power distribution, with a minimum number of openings in inter-compartment bulkheads. In the bow of the hull there is a bulb-shaped radome for the sonar antenna. On the sides below the waterline, bilge keels and active onboard rudders are mounted, providing a significant reduction in roll. Add-ons are made in the form of two separate blocks. Light alloys are used in their design, the fire hazard of which is reduced due to the use of special coatings. Taking into account the experience of hostilities in the Falkland Islands, all ladders, including those in the hull, are enclosed in fireproof steel shafts. Ammunition cellars and combat information post are equipped with anti-fragmentation protection. The ship is equipped with an air conditioning system. A sealed circuit is provided to protect the crew in the event of the use of weapons of mass destruction ..... Please note that each German frigate carries two deck helicopters, which significantly increases its ability to deal with enemy submarines and improves target designation for its own anti-ship missiles .... The Falklands War of 1982 also proved the great survivability of steel ships, in front of newfangled ships with superstructures made of fire-dangerous light alloys. The fire on the Provorny corvette also showed that superstructures made of composites burn very well .... and the production of such superstructures significantly increases the construction time of ships ... Are there any ships in the Russian Federation, or their projects, no worse than the German Brandenburg, capable of ensuring the survivability of the ship in battle, the speed of construction and at the same time make the ship not expensive, budget? There are such ships and projects. These are Project 11540 Yastreb frigates and their improved Project 11541 Korsar-2. A typical representative of 11540 frigates is Yaroslav the Wise. The frigate is entirely built of steel, and to reduce visibility it is painted with special paints, the same as the cruiser Peter the Great. It is the TOR that is now fixed with chains on the helipads of Bykov-type patrols. In the updated project 11541 Karsar-2, the frigate can carry strike weapons from 16 Uran anti-ship missiles, or 12 Onyx anti-ship missiles, or 12 Caliber anti-ship missiles.
        1. Yuri V.A Offline Yuri V.A
          Yuri V.A (Yuri) 23 June 2022 03: 53
          0
          And how many, in your opinion, simultaneously attacking low-altitude targets can the naval version of Thor repel?
          1. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
            Sapsan136 (Alexander) 23 June 2022 08: 09
            0
            Do you think that the Chinese copy of the Shtil air defense system (aka BUK) will be able to reflect more than the original domestic TOP, the latest modification, which can be installed on 11541? In addition, on Yaroslav the Wise, TOR is supplemented by the KORTIK installations ... and on 11541 it would be possible to put SHELL-M instead of KORTIK ... In addition, the hull and superstructures are made of rolled steel, namely, 11540 were built from it and they planned to build 11541, it holds combat well damage and, unlike duralumin and composites, does not burn. ALL of this as a whole provides excellent combat survivability.
            1. Yuri V.A Offline Yuri V.A
              Yuri V.A (Yuri) 23 June 2022 11: 12
              0
              Your rolled steel is the main argument in all aspects ... and yes, even the foreign analogue of Calm is better than the domestic Thor in everything except the price.
              1. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
                Sapsan136 (Alexander) 23 June 2022 14: 26
                0
                The foreign analogue is a copy of the simplified export version of the air defense system and it cannot be better than the analogue adopted by the metropolitan army.
                1. Yuri V.A Offline Yuri V.A
                  Yuri V.A (Yuri) 23 June 2022 15: 29
                  0
                  Firstly, the original is not necessarily better than a copy, secondly, the HQ-16 air defense system is not a simplified export version, but a joint Russian-Chinese project for the modernization of Calm, and the third is complexes of different classes, and the Chinese ship has four guidance stations on board against one in Russian.
                  1. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
                    Sapsan136 (Alexander) 23 June 2022 15: 41
                    -1
                    But it doesn’t bother you that the engines of the Chinese frigate are diesel engines, which, firstly, have already shown themselves to be very unreliable on the Buyan-M RTOs, where they were installed instead of the German MTUs, and secondly, they make noise at full speed so that any submarine hears such a god ship knows from where ... Even if the Russian Federation modernized something from China, it was still done as part of the EXPORT version of the air defense system ... Nobody will give what is on the ships of the Russian Federation to the Chinese ... Remember that for the same India an export version of the Su-57 was being developed ... if they wanted to merge ALL technologies to the Indians, no one would bother with this, but they would sell it in the same form in which it enters service with the Russian Air Force ... So no one sells to China in that form , in which the Russian Federation goes into service, these are military technologies, they are secret in any country of the World ... The same China builds 054A frigates for foreign customers, also in an export version, and not in the same one in which they are built for the Chinese Navy. ..
                    1. Yuri V.A Offline Yuri V.A
                      Yuri V.A (Yuri) 23 June 2022 16: 12
                      0
                      And here is a diesel engine when they explain to you that Thor / Dagger is outdated. As for the Indians, they are not interested in Russian shipborne air defense systems in any design, they switched to Israeli
                      1. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
                        Sapsan136 (Alexander) 23 June 2022 17: 43
                        -1
                        In India, Israeli BARAKs replaced only Daggers, but not the main air defense systems. On the newest frigates of India, such as Shivalik, the main air defense system is still the Shtil air defense system. TOR is outdated, so is BUK outdated, which is why there are BUK-M3 and TOR-M2. I wrote to you in a complex how the Chinese 054A will be significantly inferior to 11540, especially 11541.
                      2. Yuri V.A Offline Yuri V.A
                        Yuri V.A (Yuri) 24 June 2022 02: 18
                        -1
                        The "newest" frigate of India has a single-girder launcher - a relic of the seventies of the last century, but even this complex is preferable to the only Thor. The Israeli Barak-8 replaced Shtil on Indian destroyers, not to mention short-range systems.
                        The Chinese 054a project is outdated and Russia absolutely does not need it, like 11540, after eight years of modernization to the "Fearless", not only the Caliber, but the Uranus put in place by the project, they did not put it in its place, that is, the project was considered completely unpromising.
                      3. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
                        Sapsan136 (Alexander) 26 June 2022 22: 54
                        0
                        Barack stands on destroyers only until the naval version of the S-400 air defense system went into production ... A fearless old worn-out ship, so they did not begin to invest in it. Yaroslav the Wise of the same project carries all the weapons required by the project ... So what do you personally propose to do? Build a boat? So we have already lost 5 of them at the snake, but these mosquitoes have not caused damage to the enemy, however, like the boat fleet of Ukraine, which turned out to be useless. You propose to buy Chinese corvettes, with unreliable diesel engines and poor air defense, which is as far from the BUK-2M as walking to the moon ... a bad idea.
                      4. Yuri V.A Offline Yuri V.A
                        Yuri V.A (Yuri) 27 June 2022 03: 40
                        0
                        Yes, you, my friend, are a dreamer ... the marine version of the S-400 is worth something. God forbid that on Nakhimov with its launchers, at least the radar was changed. The upgraded Shaposhnikov is even more worn out than the Fearless, but even on him they did not deign to install not only the mediocre Poliment Redoubt, but even Calm.
                        By ordering ships in China, I will repeat for you - since these projects are technically backward, and they can be put into operation in our fleet in five years at best, you only need to take the desperately necessary anti-submarine corvettes, and build larger ships yourself.
                        Why did you decide that the type 056A project has unusable diesel engines and do you think that the Buk / Redoubt should be on the massive anti-submarine corvette, and not the Tor, for which you drown and which is certainly no better than the HQ-10 for self-defense?
                      5. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
                        Sapsan136 (Alexander) 29 June 2022 16: 41
                        -1
                        There is no need to take Chinese corvettes, because these are ships with almost no air defense and there is nothing to do with them in modern warfare. There is no helicopter hangar, there is only a deck, the GAS is mediocre ... And the Chinese diesel engines are not suitable, just look at that Chinese bullshit that stands on the Buyan-M RTOs.
                      6. Yuri V.A Offline Yuri V.A
                        Yuri V.A (Yuri) 30 June 2022 04: 12
                        -1
                        Do you have an idea about the situation? The sea border of the Russian Federation has not practically decreased since the time of the Union, and it has also increased in operational depth. In the 80s, the USSR in the near zone could deploy more than 80 Albatros MPKs and more than 40 Burevestnik TFRs, not counting older projects and small border anti-submarine ships, that is, you understand what orders we are talking about. A promising anti-submarine corvette with an onboard helicopter and a decent (at least in the size of a corvette) air defense will cost no less than the Gorshkov frigate, respectively, they will build a dozen for fifteen.
                        The air defense on the Chinese corvette is sufficient, taking into account the coastal action for self-defense, and the diesel on them is different.
                      7. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
                        Sapsan136 (Alexander) 1 July 2022 08: 15
                        0
                        Here, people like you have already built useless patrol ships ... I hope they lose their posts ... Are you talking about 20386? This is another useless and overly expensive trough that our government was smart enough to remove from mass production. They continue to build 20380 and 20385, they are half the price of 20386, and there is more benefit from them ... Therefore, I propose, without stopping the construction of 22350 (in the future 22350M), to return to the construction of budget frigates, and since there are problems with the construction of 11356, it makes sense to consider the possibility of building 11540, or 11541. This will not only formally increase the number of pennants (as was the case with useless patrolmen), but will also give really combat-ready ships. As for the anti-submarine capabilities of 11540, I see no reason to doubt the combat capabilities of the Vodopad system ... and an anti-submarine helicopter will help with detection and target designation.
                      8. Yuri V.A Offline Yuri V.A
                        Yuri V.A (Yuri) 2 July 2022 04: 57
                        0
                        Drawing conclusions is not for you.
  • Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
    Marzhecki (Sergei) 22 June 2022 16: 02
    0
    All our drawings have long been transferred. Look, all Chinese aircraft carriers are modernized Soviet projects. The Chinese have already learned how to build well. We've been building for a very long time, too long. And a miracle will not happen, we will continue to build for a long time. And the war is ALREADY on, and our ships are ALREADY sinking.
    And this is just the beginning. We are generally on the threshold of the use of nuclear weapons, if you do not understand.
    1. Dukhskrepny Offline Dukhskrepny
      Dukhskrepny (Vasya) 22 June 2022 16: 18
      0
      So everything is in heaven with Putin, and NATO will die?
      1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
        Marzhecki (Sergei) 22 June 2022 16: 34
        0
        I did not write this.
    2. Vox Populi Offline Vox Populi
      Vox Populi (vox populi) 22 June 2022 17: 30
      0
      Not only handed over, but also stolen by our Chinese friends...
  • faiver Offline faiver
    faiver (Andrei) 22 June 2022 16: 22
    0
    Then we'll catch up.

    - with the current situation in the world, "Later" may no longer be
  • Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
    Marzhecki (Sergei) 22 June 2022 15: 44
    -1
    Quote: zzdimk
    Quote: Marzhetsky
    Our shipyards are filled with orders for years to come. From the fact that they are thrown more, they will not build faster.
    Nobody offers to take away orders from our people and fire people. We simply do not have a fleet, and it will not come from nowhere on its own.

    But! You can’t just give away technologies and blueprints. It's better to wait. Then we'll catch up.

    What drawings? The point is to take their drawings, having received ready-made ships on a turnkey basis according to our requirements, and not to give them our technologies. smile
  • mark1 Offline mark1
    mark1 22 June 2022 16: 11
    0
    It’s probably not worth ordering frigates and corvettes, somehow the industry was shaken up, the types worked out, you look and we’ll reach the right pace (I don’t believe in Chinese quality when mass orders to a foreign customer). But I would order a pair of UDC type 075 for the needs of the Far East. And the class is very much in demand, but we ourselves will not soon find our own (Kerchinskys are probably better at the Black Sea Fleet), and the quality with such an honorable order (and corresponding control) may not be bad.
  • Dukhskrepny Offline Dukhskrepny
    Dukhskrepny (Vasya) 22 June 2022 16: 17
    +3
    Yes, it’s better to immediately “order” the country’s leadership in China. A catastrophe awaits with the current leaders of Russia. In addition to theft and chatter about “galoshes and bonbas laid by Lenin under Russia”, these managers cannot and do not want to
    1. mark1 Offline mark1
      mark1 22 June 2022 17: 50
      0
      It would be nice on the topic of the article and not about aspects of historical materialism on the scale of a single state. Why click on the topic and without?
  • faiver Offline faiver
    faiver (Andrei) 22 June 2022 16: 19
    0
    I absolutely agree with the author - it's high time to admit that we have problems with the construction of ships, we build our corvettes for SIX years and each time we try to blind another "death star", while by ordering, for example, 20 corvettes ala 056A in China, we can get TWENTY ships for a maximum of THREE years, while leaving the filling of the ship’s weapons with you. And these will be simple workhorses of our fleet, the main thing is that they will be.
    1. Kuramori Reika Offline Kuramori Reika
      Kuramori Reika (Kuramori Reika) 22 June 2022 17: 34
      0
      The latest series of ships was delayed for several years, because they had to develop a new engine from scratch, after Ukraine banned their sale to Russia.
      1. faiver Offline faiver
        faiver (Andrei) 22 June 2022 19: 31
        +1
        has the build date changed a lot? Doves of peace 22160 were built for four years ....
        1. Kuramori Reika Offline Kuramori Reika
          Kuramori Reika (Kuramori Reika) 22 June 2022 20: 02
          -1
          Now of course it will change. Experience appeared, issues with the engine and electronic filling were resolved.
          1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
            Marzhecki (Sergei) 22 June 2022 20: 19
            +1
            Engines on a teaspoon a year still do
            1. Kuramori Reika Offline Kuramori Reika
              Kuramori Reika (Kuramori Reika) 22 June 2022 20: 34
              -1
              Yesterday they didn’t exist at all, but here they created a whole new family based on the D500. And I do not think that there are not enough of them, most likely there are exactly as many of them as needed.
              1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
                Marzhecki (Sergei) 22 June 2022 20: 46
                +1
                Alas, it is not. There are big problems with the scaling of engine production. Under sanctions, they will only increase.
                On VO Timokhin on engines an article. I made a big one, read it, unpleasant, but useful.
  • Victor Du Offline Victor Du
    Victor Du (Victor) 22 June 2022 16: 21
    +1
    I think this is the right decision. Russia, in its history, often ordered military (and civilian too) ships abroad. The dough in the country, even if it hangs itself, lies like a dead weight. There is no capacity for construction at home. Building shipyards and raising the entire chain of production of small items for the fleet is a long time. Private traders were carried away by the construction of tankers. Own and export. It brings good profit. To lure them with higher profits will ruin the budget. To prohibit either directly or through taxes and requisitions is to stop the influx of the desired currency. Of course, to probe the possibilities at the lowest possible level. So that the refusal (this may be) does not hit the reputation.
  • Victor Du Offline Victor Du
    Victor Du (Victor) 22 June 2022 16: 42
    +2
    Quote: mark1
    at the very least, somehow the industry was shaken, the types worked out,

    Dreams. Reality is cruel. There is nothing to match. Production, after the war, was spread throughout the country and in all ministries. It was believed that this would protect against a blow to an essential center. The collapse of the country broke all the chains, leaving the production of many things already beyond the borders of Russia. Production died there and with us. There is nothing to restore, you need to build it all at home. Almost from scratch. Moreover, not factories for existing designs, but new designs, since the owners of those drawings are no longer Russia. Take at least engines for corvettes, or helicopters. Industrialization 2.0. But, already under sanctions.
  • Victor Du Offline Victor Du
    Victor Du (Victor) 22 June 2022 16: 57
    0
    Quote: Marzhetsky
    Quote: zzdimk
    Quote: Marzhetsky
    Our shipyards are filled with orders for years to come. From the fact that they are thrown more, they will not build faster.
    Nobody offers to take away orders from our people and fire people. We simply do not have a fleet, and it will not come from nowhere on its own.

    But! You can’t just give away technologies and blueprints. It's better to wait. Then we'll catch up.

    What drawings? The point is to take their drawings, having received ready-made ships on a turnkey basis according to our requirements, and not to give them our technologies. smile

    I will add, with the conditions to put Russian weapons on the boxes, electronics, which we will install ourselves, at home. Indicating the dimensions and installation dimensions for the pieces of iron. Cables and everything else will be carried out by them, according to our schemes. They will conduct running and other tests. Minus, of course, those that will not be possible for the time being due to the understaffing of Russian hardware. We will finish. And invite them to the celebrations.
  • Observer2014 Offline Observer2014
    Observer2014 22 June 2022 17: 10
    +4
    Because they were needed the day before yesterday .. And our leadership, with a responsible business, built yachts for itself.
  • Victor Du Offline Victor Du
    Victor Du (Victor) 22 June 2022 17: 17
    0
    Quote: zzdimk
    Quote: Marzhetsky
    Our shipyards are filled with orders for years to come. From the fact that they are thrown more, they will not build faster.
    Nobody offers to take away orders from our people and fire people. We simply do not have a fleet, and it will not come from nowhere on its own.

    But! You can’t just give away technologies and blueprints. It's better to wait. Then we'll catch up.

    You are absolutely .... Drawings and technologies are made for the existing production. Sitting in St. Petersburg, one cannot know the capabilities of the equipment of the Chinese shipyard. So, it would be good for you at the beginning .... and then ...... Your shame will not be seen. This is a mass product, like a car, at first I design a car, and then, equipment and a plant are built for it. Ships are a piece of work. And there they do the opposite - they design parts for equipment. And, if, for example, some kind of bending machine has the ability to bend ten-meter parts, then the designer makes his drawing taking into account this requirement.
  • Vox Populi Offline Vox Populi
    Vox Populi (vox populi) 22 June 2022 17: 23
    0
    If we deal with sovereign China, with which Russia objectively now in the same boat, then there are chances for timely execution of the order.

    We are more companions than allies...
    1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
      Marzhecki (Sergei) 22 June 2022 20: 37
      +1
      So far, we are in the same boat, which should be used.
  • Avarron Offline Avarron
    Avarron (Sergei) 22 June 2022 17: 50
    +2
    Yeah, and then what will happen to France, with these mistrals, right? The United States will intimidate Chinese shipyards with sanctions and they will refuse to give ready-made ships to Russia, moreover, they will hand them over to the same Americans, if only not to fall under sanctions.
    You can never trust the defense of Russia to foreign manufacturers.
    1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
      Marzhecki (Sergei) 22 June 2022 18: 14
      0
      Yeah, and then what will happen to France, with these mistrals, right? The United States will intimidate Chinese shipyards with sanctions and they will refuse to give ready-made ships to Russia, moreover, they will hand them over to the same Americans, if only not to fall under sanctions.

      Ship in the morning, money in the evening.

      You can never trust the defense of Russia to foreign manufacturers.

      It is forbidden. By the way, why did the stake in Russian Helicopters seem to have been sold to a Qatari fund?
      Nobody offers to trust the defense. It’s about buying in addition what we don’t have and won’t appear quickly, even if it cracks.
      1. Avarron Offline Avarron
        Avarron (Sergei) 22 June 2022 18: 56
        0
        If in the morning there is a ship and in the evening there is money, then nothing will prevent the PNDOS from printing bucks in order to offer them to the Chinese for Russian ships twice as much as Russia is ready to pay. If for Ukraine 40 lards were born without a chance of their return, then they will certainly be born to pay for Russian ships ordered in China.
        In any case, the pndos will come up with something so that Russia does not receive the ordered ships, do not go to a fortune teller. They will impose sanctions, lift sanctions, offer money or open markets for the Chinese in some important industry, or sabotage, but we will not see these ships.
        The only reliable option is to buy ready-made ones so that China can make new ones for itself.
        1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
          Marzhecki (Sergei) 22 June 2022 20: 20
          0
          If in the morning there is a ship and in the evening there is money, then nothing will prevent the PNDOS from printing bucks in order to offer them to the Chinese for Russian ships twice as much as Russia is ready to pay. If for Ukraine 40 lards were born without a chance of their return, then they will certainly be born to pay for Russian ships ordered in China.

          Do not forget that the United States is at war against China, which is an even more implacable adversary than Russia.

          The only reliable option is to buy ready-made ones so that China can make new ones for itself.

          China is building fast. But you only need to buy what was originally designed for our equipment and weapons.
  • Victor Du Offline Victor Du
    Victor Du (Victor) 22 June 2022 17: 55
    0
    Quote: Spiritual
    Yes, it’s better to immediately “order” the country’s leadership in China. A catastrophe awaits with the current leaders of Russia. In addition to theft and chatter about “galoshes and bonbas laid by Lenin under Russia”, these managers cannot and do not want to

    ..And clairvoyants, however, as well as eyewitnesses,
    people have burned at the stake throughout the ages...


    V.S. Vysotsky.

    So, shake your mouth. As if.....
  • doc8673 Offline doc8673
    doc8673 (Vyacheslav) 22 June 2022 18: 25
    +2
    we must make weapons ourselves and our own, so as not to depend on anyone and keep our secrets ...........
    1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
      Marzhecki (Sergei) 22 June 2022 18: 39
      0
      Yes, they should. But we can’t yet do it with the proper speed and in the right quantities.
  • vlad127490 Offline vlad127490
    vlad127490 (Vlad Gor) 22 June 2022 20: 16
    0
    We need First Rank ships.
    1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
      Marzhecki (Sergei) 22 June 2022 20: 21
      +1
      Of course. Both the second and the third. As such, we do not have a combat-ready surface fleet ...
  • Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
    Marzhecki (Sergei) 22 June 2022 20: 36
    +1
    Quote: mark1
    But I would order a pair of UDC type 075 for the needs of the Far East. And the class is very much in demand, but we ourselves will not soon find our own (Kerchinskys are probably better at the Black Sea Fleet), and the quality with such an honorable order (and corresponding control) may not be bad.

    Yes, but they need an escort... those same frigates and destroyers.
  • Bakht Offline Bakht
    Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 22 June 2022 21: 08
    0
    A good idea. At present, such ships are needed. The problem, as always, is funding. The military budget is not rubber. We need calibers and iskanders, we need aerial bombs and shells, we need drones and means of communication. And we need ships. A lot of things are needed. And first of all, you need a word. And this word should be "Everything for the front, everything for the Victory."
    Are people ready for hardship?

    If we want to help the Muscovite state, we will not regret anything, we will sell our yards, we will mortgage our wives and children in order to save the fatherland!

    Citizen Kuzma Minin.
  • IC Offline IC
    IC (PM) 22 June 2022 21: 50
    +2
    Where did the author get that China and the Russian Federation are in the same boat?
    Especially in the context of sanctions. China has a huge export volume of civil shipbuilding. Therefore, he will not risk this market for the sake of the Russian Federation. An example, at present, is the financial market.
    1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
      Marzhecki (Sergei) 23 June 2022 07: 23
      +1
      Where did the author get that China and the Russian Federation are in the same boat?

      Since the main goal for the United States is not even Russia, but China.
  • to hell with steamboats - they're just floating coffins! We need long-range satellite-guided hypersonic missiles! And the ships are for scrap!
  • 1_2 Offline 1_2
    1_2 (Ducks are flying) 23 June 2022 00: 01
    +2
    the idea is, of course, ridiculously stupid at first glance)) but today the pipe Tsar made us all happy - it turns out that negotiations are underway with the Chinese Indians so that they begin to import their cars for sale and replace the trading networks of the West)) that is, his hundred billionaires do not want to develop and build car factories and even to engage in the trade of clothes, etc., as Papuans, to sell resources, oil products, metal and wood, is much easier and more reliable for them, everything that is more complicated than barrels of gasoline and round timber does not interest them.

    so I won’t be surprised that the Russian Navy will soon possibly switch to disposable Chinese troughs and patrol neutered Russian corvettes, while the Indians, in the meantime, will scare the Chinese by operating Russian export combat frigates and even a Russian nuclear submarine leased from the Russian Navy

    1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
      Marzhecki (Sergei) 23 June 2022 07: 49
      +1
      the idea is of course ridiculous stupid at first glance

      The idea is normal, and the naval ones treat it with understanding, unlike jingoistic patriots.

      so I won’t be surprised that the Russian Navy may soon switch to disposable Chinese troughs

      Our troughs are the same "disposable", if you haven't noticed. It's just that each ship has its own task. PLO corvettes should guard the BMZ and there should be a lot of them. And we have few of them, and there will be many very, very soon.
      At the same time, our corvettes and aircraft carriers tend to burn right at the pier.
      1. 1_2 Offline 1_2
        1_2 (Ducks are flying) 23 June 2022 11: 50
        0
        you can patrol corvettes (how many are there? 5-6 pieces?) to equip air defense, anti-ship missiles, etc. buying from the Chinese means becoming dependent on the Chinese, and they are friends today, enemies tomorrow, but if we are talking only about ordering an empty hull, then quite a good idea
        1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
          Marzhecki (Sergei) 23 June 2022 17: 32
          +1
          The idea of ​​resupplying the "Peace Doves" did not go through due to the futility. Even the fleet has already abandoned the continuation of the series.
          Of course, you need to arm the ordered ships yourself. After all, they were actually built according to Russian technologies, I specifically gave a reference to our "genes" in the article.
  • InanRom Offline InanRom
    InanRom (Ivan) 23 June 2022 00: 19
    +2
    There is a lot of discussion, there are many proposals and options, there is a lot of noise, but the essence is simple - no matter how everyone discusses and no matter what they offer, all this is led / driven by all the same "effective" managers, managers, officials and ministers who have failed in 30 years , everything that is possible, and at the same time remaining with impunity "rafiknevinovaty". In translation: "And you, friends, no matter how you sit down, everyone is not good at musicians!" and "When there is no agreement among the comrades, their business will not go well!" ..."And nothing has changed". And when the main thing is not the interests of the state or the people, but "the interests of business" and "market principles" (V. Putin), then it is difficult to expect something good. That is why any yacht of Russian tops and oligarchs costs more than the notorious cruiser Moskva, and is stuffed like the Black Sea Fleet never dreamed of. And there are no problems with money for their construction, place of execution of the order and quality.
  • Yuri V.A Offline Yuri V.A
    Yuri V.A (Yuri) 23 June 2022 03: 45
    -3
    Projects of Chinese ships are yesterday, and even if in five to seven years we get a destroyer in this way, then Russia will put up a forty-year-old concept against a technically modern enemy, so you only need to order a couple of dozen anti-submarine corvettes.
    1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
      Marzhecki (Sergei) 23 June 2022 07: 25
      +2
      And when will we ourselves generate and build a modern destroyer? Really. With these people and at the existing production facilities?
      American Arleigh Burkes are the same 40-year-old designs undergoing continuous improvement.
      What do we need, a Leader-type super destroyer or adequately priced normal workhorses in sufficient numbers where they are really needed?
      1. Yuri V.A Offline Yuri V.A
        Yuri V.A (Yuri) 23 June 2022 11: 23
        -2
        The leader, in that exhibition incarnation, was needed fifteen years ago, now this is also irrelevant, and the Chinese project 052d was a miserable fake of Burke when it appeared, and you offer it for the future
        1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
          Marzhecki (Sergei) 23 June 2022 17: 28
          0
          I'm talking about what you can really get, in adequate time and for an adequate cost. I'm not saying it's a wow prospect. These are real workhorses for the fleet to plug holes in the here and now. The time for the wunderwaffe in Russia has definitely not yet come: neither the industry, nor the personnel, nor the military budget is ready.
          And what do you suggest, I do not quite understand? There was no alternative at all from your side.
          1. Yuri V.A Offline Yuri V.A
            Yuri V.A (Yuri) 24 June 2022 02: 56
            -1
            Okay, let's get more realism. It is difficult to say in terms of cost, judging by the prices of the auto industry, the Chinese will not be cheaper, although barter is possible. In terms of time - it will take a year to agree on the technical and financial part of the contract, a couple more years to build the hull and install engines, then transfer and install equipment, weapons and decoration - a couple more years. In total, without testing and state acceptance, a five-year period is at least, this is the period for which it is realistic, if you try, to get at new shipbuilding capacities comparable in size to 052D, but probably more effective project 22350M. If you take a Chinese destroyer with Chinese filling, you can win in a year and a half, but in the end we get not a workhorse, but a technically old nag. Therefore, now it is necessary to purchase only the simplest and most necessary - anti-submarine corvettes
            1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
              Marzhecki (Sergei) 24 June 2022 09: 28
              0
              I understood you. That is, do you see our 22350M as a more promising destroyer?
              In fact, I am inclined to the same opinion, but doubts are only about the actual timing of their construction.
              And what about the new shipbuilding capacities?
              1. Yuri V.A Offline Yuri V.A
                Yuri V.A (Yuri) 24 June 2022 13: 26
                0
                Let them classify this project as they want - even a destroyer, even a super-frigate, but one can hope that according to the proven technologies of the "Gorshkov" they will not get stuck in a long-term construction, but in this matter, you are right, no doubt about it.
                As for new capacities, this is a boathouse with two slipways at Severnaya Verf, which is promised to be commissioned in the second quarter of the 23rd
  • rotkiv04 Offline rotkiv04
    rotkiv04 (Victor) 23 June 2022 08: 14
    +1
    In Nikolaev, not only there was no production base left, the most important thing is that there were no specialists left, there is simply no one to build ships, so the author is right, the only right way is to buy in China
    1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
      Marzhecki (Sergei) 23 June 2022 08: 22
      +2
      Quote: rotkiv04
      In Nikolaev, not only there was no production base left, the most important thing is that there were no specialists left, there is simply no one to build ships, so the author is right, the only right way is to buy in China

      I hope we will return Nikolaev, restore both it and our shipbuilding industry. But it will take many years.
      And the ships are needed now. At least PLO corvettes. And more.
  • Victor Du Offline Victor Du
    Victor Du (Victor) 23 June 2022 11: 07
    +1
    Quote: Bulanov
    And why not build ships in Nikolaev? The Nikolaev Shipbuilding Institute was there until recently. After the Second World War, the shipyards of Nikolaev were rebuilt quickly enough. Maybe the population of Nikolaev will be more cordially greeted by the RF Armed Forces if they find out that the city is waiting for huge military orders from Russia and prosperity? Or are they going to wage a 100-year war with Ukraine, and therefore it is better to order ships in China?

    Shipyards are assembly plants. But a warship is millions of parts, products of a completely different nature and purpose. Without some kind of harmless box, you can’t assemble the whole. Why do they stand on the slipway for many years? The chain of industrial relations has been broken. In order to assemble the ship's electrics and lay cable networks, it is necessary to restore a plant in Siberia, in the former Ministry of the Coal Industry. (Which I worked on in KB, and was the lead designer of such boxes). Or build a plant for the manufacture of gas turbines, which remained in Ukraine. become an enemy. Or rebuild the production of non-magnetic ship steels, which has died in the open spaces of Kazakhstan. Thousands of plants are involved in the cooperation, once working harmoniously under the control of the State Planning Commission and the Military Industrial Commission in the USSR. Now all this is gone. There is a slipway on which the hull rots, becoming obsolete as a moral
    (development 80 years), and physically. The question is correct. The difficulties of ordering in China are incomparably simpler than the difficulties of restoring all this bulk with us. And all this had to be done thirty years ago. Naturally, China is not a panacea and not a lifesaver. You need to do everything at home. At the same time, and not relying on that "parallel import substitution"
  • Victor Du Offline Victor Du
    Victor Du (Victor) 23 June 2022 20: 51
    0
    Quote: Avarron
    Why hasn't it been restored in Russia? What specifically does not suit you, you can find out? It seems that factories are working, roads are being built, people live well. What else do you need?

    Are you smearing roads with bread? And you wear city construction sites instead of pants. Have you held Russian electrical engineering in your hands for a long time? Do the cars contain everything Russian? Yes, it remains to start and finish restoring the economy. The machine tool industry - the foundation of the foundations is lying on its side.
  • Victor Du Offline Victor Du
    Victor Du (Victor) 23 June 2022 22: 32
    0
    Quote: Sergey Latyshev
    Mistrals and engines from Ukraine....
    When ordering everything was fine...
    And when they received it, it suddenly felt bad ....

    And here they wrote that engines for the Navy from China are horror, they refused to purchase ...

    What phone are you on? Auto, go, not from Germany? What a language to grind in vain.
  • of Russia It does not follow order a series of corvettes, frigates and destroyers both in China and in Russia!
    1. Expert_Analyst_Forecaster 25 June 2022 08: 36
      -1
      I agree. No reason to order from China.
      And you can build it yourself, but slowly and well thought out the strategy for using the fleet.
      At the moment, the fleet does not decide anything, and the next ten to fifteen years will not decide anything.
      And perhaps never.
      Is that nuclear submarine cruisers. But now they seem to be being built as far as technically possible.
  • Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
    Marzhecki (Sergei) 24 June 2022 19: 39
    -1
    Quote: BoBot Robot - Free Thinking Machine
    of Russia It does not follow order a series of corvettes, frigates and destroyers both in China and in Russia!

    Some people should be banned from using the internet, in my opinion.
  • Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
    Marzhecki (Sergei) 25 June 2022 08: 49
    -1
    I agree. No reason to order from China.
    And you can build yourself, but slowly and well thought out the strategy for using the fleet.
    At the moment, the fleet does not decide anything, and the next ten to fifteen years will not decide anything.
    And perhaps never.
    Is that nuclear submarine cruisers. But now they seem to be being built as far as technically possible.

    Your level of competence in this matter is fully consistent with the Bobot Robot. You don't understand what you're talking about at all.
    1. Expert_Analyst_Forecaster 25 June 2022 10: 26
      -1
      I will not argue. You (we're on you, aren't we?) More literate than me in naval matters.
      But this is the case when you can't see the forest for the trees. Immersed in tactical matters, not understanding anything in strategy.
      And the strategy is as simple as two times two is four.
      Russia will not fight either NATO or Japan with conventional weapons. And even foreplay and foreplay (with conventional weapons) will not. Japan will be destroyed. All. Fully. No single hits. Only fatal for the state of Japan and, alas, for the Japanese people.

      I am sure that the Japanese authorities are aware of this. Therefore, while nuclear weapons are in the hands of Russia, they will not take risks.
      They are not .

      The conclusion is simple. There is no reason to particularly invest in the fleet in the east of the country.
      Strengthen, as far as possible, it is necessary. But without pedaling this process. For now there are more important fronts and tasks.
      1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
        Marzhecki (Sergei) 27 June 2022 20: 25
        0
        I will not argue. You (we're on you, aren't we?) More literate than me in naval matters.
        But this is the case when you can't see the forest for the trees. Immersed in tactical matters, not understanding anything in strategy.

        It's me with you on you, and for you I am you, with a capital letter, a real expert and analyst, unlike you. And in strategy, I definitely understand more than you.

        Russia will not fight either NATO or Japan with conventional weapons. And even foreplay and foreplay (with conventional weapons) will not. Japan will be destroyed. All. Fully. No single hits. Only fatal for the state of Japan and, alas, for the Japanese people.

        I am sure that the Japanese authorities are aware of this. Therefore, while nuclear weapons are in the hands of Russia, they will not take risks.

        These are just your fantasies of the same order as a nuclear attack on Poland and Great Britain. Under the current authorities in the Russian Federation, this will not happen.

        The conclusion is simple. There is no reason to particularly invest in the fleet in the east of the country.
        Strengthen, as far as possible, it is necessary. But without pedaling this process. For now there are more important fronts and tasks.

        You just don't understand how important it is to ensure the safety of the NSNF. And with Japan, we will fight conventionally, and not nuclear, as well as with Ukraine for the Snake. You'll see.
        1. Expert_Analyst_Forecaster 29 June 2022 09: 08
          +1
          It's me with you on you, and for you I'm you.

          Sergei, you are wrong. Politeness does not depend on conceit. If you think that you have the right to call commentators "you" and by their names, then we have the right to call you the same way.
          You are a person just like me. Although less intelligent than most commentators.
          You are much more likely to express your opinion about the personalities of commentators than you give any arguments to support your statements. Therefore, I will allow you to evaluate your personal qualities. And without the rudeness that you practice.
        2. Expert_Analyst_Forecaster 29 June 2022 09: 13
          0
          And with Japan, we will fight conventionally, and not nuclear, as well as with Ukraine for the Snake.

          I understood your logic.
          We are fighting for Serpentine with conventional weapons.
          Serpentine is an island. Japan is islands.
          This means that we will fight for them with conventional weapons.

          Clever, Seryozha. Built an impeccable logical chain.

          And I believe that Japan will NOT fight with Russia at all. As long as Russia has nuclear weapons. And all these panic moods of yours are not worth a penny. Once again, the boy shouts "Wolves, wolves!".
  • vlad127490 Offline vlad127490
    vlad127490 (Vlad Gor) 3 August 2022 16: 18
    0
    Are you sure that China will agree to build ships for us ??? First of all, we need cruisers and destroyers. We will build a trifle ourselves. The war in Ukraine showed gaps in the Russian army. Ukrainians drowned the cruiser Moscow with two missiles. Now the Black Sea Fleet is naked.