Why the Black Sea Fleet has to create “ersatz air defense corvettes” on the go


According to leading news agencies, the Russian Navy can acquire six air defense corvettes at once. The need of the Russian Navy for ships of this class does not raise the slightest doubt, which was clearly confirmed by real hostilities in the Black Sea, but how exactly the problem will be solved made naval officers and military experts grab their heads. What went wrong?


According to TASS, the newly appeared "air defense corvettes" will be sculpted from project 22160 patrol ships:

By the end of this year, the Black Sea corvettes of project 22160, taking into account the experience of participation in the special operation, will strengthen the ship's air defense system by installing the Tor-M2KM air defense system.

Photos appeared on the Web with the lead patrol ship of this series, Vasily Bykov, at the stern of which, right in the middle of the helipad, there was a bulky ground-based air defense system, secured with chains so as not to fall overboard. One can understand why this was done: an almost unarmed ship has to participate in real combat operations against the Armed Forces of Ukraine, which are armed with aircraft, manned and unmanned, long-range artillery and anti-ship missiles. The need for invention is cunning, and for Vasily Bykov this Tor, and for the supply ship Vsevolod Bobrov with the ground-based Pantsir-S1 air defense missile system installed directly on the deck, are the weapon of last chance.

But how did it happen that instead of the air defense and anti-aircraft defense corvettes that the Black Sea Fleet really needed, it included a whole series of incapacitated patrol ships, nicknamed by experts “pigeons of peace”?

"Doves of Peace"


The problem of piracy reached the international level in the 1s, when Somali pirates began to systematically rob merchant and passenger ships passing along the African coast. Russia also had to take part in eliminating this threat, which was forced to send several ships of the Baltic, Northern and Pacific fleets there - the Fearless TFR, the Admiral Panteleev BOD with escort ships, and even the Peter the Great TARK. This is to the question of whether the Russian Navy needs large ships of the XNUMXst rank or is it enough "mosquitoes" for all occasions.

Unfortunately, we chose the second path, which proved to be a dead end. In 2013, the Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy, Admiral Viktor Chirkov, visited the United States, was treated kindly by the host and admired the American idea of ​​"modular" littoral ships. Upon his return, a year later, he gave the green light to a series of six Project 22160 patrol ships, which was positioned as "modular". The cost of each is estimated at 6 billion, that is, a total of 36 billion was paid for them. This is the price of two full-fledged corvettes, which would now be so useful in the Black Sea, and in any other of the Russian fleets. What did the country get for this considerable money?

To begin with, it is worth referring to the international experience in the fight against piracy and see how this problem is solved in other, not great, land countries.

An "anti-piracy" ship must meet a number of requirements. Firstly, its size, contours and autonomy should allow you to get to the place of service in the far sea zone, since we are talking about the African coast, and operate in conditions of strong pitching and waves. Secondly, on its deck there should be at least two Ka-27PS / 29 helicopters capable of taking to the air at the same time, reconnaissance drones, as well as at least a couple of high-speed seagoing boats that each receive a special forces squad. Thirdly, we need a full-fledged infirmary to provide medical assistance to injured hostages, premises for their stay, as well as a prison for captured pirates.

So, countries that really face the problem of sea robbery use ships of a different class than our project 22160 to combat it. For example, Singapore uses Endurance-class landing ships with a displacement of 6500 tons. Malaysia converted bulk carriers of the Bunga Mas Lima type into floating bases for special forces. The former "mistress of the seas" Britain used the complex supply ship RFA Fort Victoria with a displacement of 31 tons for this purpose. The Americans use their numerous destroyers, the Chinese - frigates. What did the Russian Navy get to fight pirates, about which almost nothing has been heard about in recent years?

He received a series of six lightly armed and almost defenseless ships, originally designed for the needs of the FSB Coast Guard. All of its weapons are a universal 76-mm automatic gun AK-176MA, 2 heavy machine guns and 2 anti-sabotage grenade launchers. The air defense system is represented by 8 MANPADS "Igla-S" or "Verba", so to speak, the weapon of "last chance". There is no anti-submarine protection as such. Theoretically, 2 × 4 Kalibr-K modular missile systems with Kh-35 missiles or the Kalibr family can be installed on them. These are the very "modules" that inspired Admiral Chirkov so much, but in reality, not a single patrol ship is equipped with them yet. The travel speed is low, and small boats shake a lot during waves, which negatively affects the well-being of the crew, and also makes it difficult to use helicopters and UAVs during takeoff and landing. To all this, it is worth adding that project 22160 was built according to civil technology, both of its power plants are in the same room and can be disabled with a single hit.

Black Sea terrorists


And now these defenseless and weakly armed ships of the Black Sea Fleet have to take part in real hostilities against Ukraine, which is backed by all the military power of the NATO bloc. So, the lead ship of the series "Vasily Bykov" had a chance to take part in the confrontation with the Armed Forces of Ukraine for Snake Island. In the Ukrainian media, he was already “drowned” in absentia, but, fortunately, the information turned out to be fake. However, one should be aware that in the event of an air attack or a strike from the shore by anti-ship missiles, the project 22160 has no chance. Enough of one "Neptune", "Harpoon" or even more so the Norwegian rocket NSM.

Will the Tor-M2KM air defense system installed directly on the deck of Vasily Bykov help?

Alas, not a fact. The ammunition of this anti-aircraft complex is only a modest 8 missiles. This is about a minute of combat at best. At the same time, the big problem is that the air defense system, handicraftly mounted on the helipad, is not integrated into the ship’s unified control system and has radar detection means of a limited radius. In fact, "Tor-M2KM" on a patrol ship is purely for complacency, so as not to go on a combat mission with only MANPADS in hand. And 36 billion rubles were spent on this instead of a pair of full-fledged air defense and anti-aircraft defense corvettes, which would really come in handy in the Black Sea now!

It remains to figure out why the development of the Russian Navy has gone down such a flawed path that you have to handicraft "ersatz air defense corvettes", who is responsible for this and what to do next.
85 comments
Information
Dear reader, to leave comments on the publication, you must sign in.
  1. sgrabik Offline sgrabik
    sgrabik (Sergei) 14 June 2022 13: 05
    +7
    Apparently, as always, someone was very interested in lobbying and pushing this under-project into reality, such things need to be thoroughly investigated and all those responsible should be really called to account, this is a direct undermining of the defense capability of our country, but some characters seem to care little.
    1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
      Marzhecki (Sergei) 14 June 2022 13: 06
      +5
      Admiral Chirkov, they write, continues his career at USC.
    2. wolf46 Offline wolf46
      wolf46 14 June 2022 13: 27
      +2
      Lobbyism of Tatarstan: the day before yesterday, 2 research ships were laid down in Zelenodolsk, probably for the GUGI fleet.
    3. Alexey Davydov Offline Alexey Davydov
      Alexey Davydov (Alexey) 14 June 2022 15: 10
      +7
      It is advantageous for sabotage to disguise itself as thoughtlessness.
      It is necessary a priori to qualify everything as sabotage - you look then there will be less stupidity
      1. Vladimir Vitalin (Vladimir Vitalin) 15 June 2022 00: 26
        +3
        This is absolutely correct - with such expenses of funds and resources for a mediocre project, this definitely needs to be qualified as sabotage ... but who will do it ??? It's a pity - to send a couple of our admirals to mow down the taiga, you see, and normal ships would appear ... Yes, and it's time to disperse this flock of old senile .... Fresh blood is needed ...
        1. Materialist Offline Materialist
          Materialist (Michael) 20 June 2022 07: 01
          0
          Who to change? on the victims of the Bologna Declaration? maybe look among the retirees? some were fired for their honesty and illiberal views. to them the most capable young in training
      2. Monster_Fat Offline Monster_Fat
        Monster_Fat (What's the difference) 19 June 2022 07: 40
        +2
        Who is guilty"? Like who"? Blame the cat. Yes, cat. T-62 on the front line is also a "cat". Three-rulers in the hands of the fighters - again a cat.
    4. Dukhskrepny Offline Dukhskrepny
      Dukhskrepny (Vasya) 15 June 2022 21: 43
      -1
      Tsar father Putin is tired of Russians
  2. Bulanov Offline Bulanov
    Bulanov (Vladimir) 14 June 2022 13: 27
    +2
    And what, the decommissioned Ukrainian ships in the Sevastopol bays, cannot be shamanized and armed with the "Pantsir" and other novelties, they can be sent to the Odessa front? Are they really good for nothing? After all, this is the former Soviet fleet.
    1. Sydor Kovpak Offline Sydor Kovpak
      Sydor Kovpak 14 June 2022 14: 11
      -1
      I’m 0 in military affairs, but if there are pickup trucks with guns, then why not install wheeled armor bastions on the Ukroflot. And nightmare them everywhere. If only it "floated" .... During the defense of Sevastopol, artillery floating bases were used. Tasalia tugboats them ... The main firing point
      1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
        Marzhecki (Sergei) 14 June 2022 14: 18
        +3
        I’m 0 in military affairs, but if there are pickup trucks with guns, then why not install wheeled armor bastions on the Ukroflot. And nightmare them everywhere. If only it floated...

        It shakes at sea, plus problems with integration into a single control and target designation system for memory. Land-based systems of air defense systems must be specially seamed. Such decisions are a gesture of desperation.
        smile Sailors say about the ship that it goes. And it floats...
        1. Sydor Kovpak Offline Sydor Kovpak
          Sydor Kovpak 14 June 2022 14: 28
          +1
          I specifically used the word NIGHTMARE and the word SWEALED! But thanks anyway
    2. Vladimir Vitalin (Vladimir Vitalin) 15 June 2022 00: 27
      0
      These are old buckets, they are of no use ...
  3. rotkiv04 Offline rotkiv04
    rotkiv04 (Victor) 14 June 2022 13: 42
    +13
    After it was sunk kr. Moscow, there should be no questions at all about the adequacy of the command of the Navy, but in general everything is as always - who is to blame and what to do
  4. steelmaker Offline steelmaker
    steelmaker 14 June 2022 14: 29
    +3
    I recently met a retired friend. He tells me that he recently remembered me and my words. And I told him that the sun is shining, the birds are singing and life seems to be beautiful until you encounter nothing. And when you encounter at least something: housing and communal services, security, traffic police, a clinic, police, various offices, etc., then you understand how everything is running with us, a mess and disrespect for a person. So my acquaintance, a pensioner, got in and there were no words of censorship left.
    And what about the article? Remember: “I don’t solve problems with mediocrity, I create problems with mediocrity!”
    1. sgrabik Offline sgrabik
      sgrabik (Sergei) 14 June 2022 16: 33
      +2
      The question is not just mediocrity, but how all these mediocrity get into leadership and power structures ???
      1. Awaz Offline Awaz
        Awaz (Walery) 14 June 2022 21: 29
        +1
        how this has been practiced in Russia for a long time, since the time of the tsars ... With the advice, at some point they tried to fix it somehow, but in the end they returned to this anyway ...
      2. k7k8 Online k7k8
        k7k8 (vic) 14 June 2022 22: 49
        0
        Everything is decided by the fullness of the pouring of the glass and the volume of clicking heels
    2. Fourth Horseman Offline Fourth Horseman
      Fourth Horseman (Fourth Horseman) 14 June 2022 20: 06
      -5
      Salovar, how is it that you have a pension of 12 thousand? What are you, stupid?)
  5. faiver Offline faiver
    faiver (Andrei) 14 June 2022 14: 33
    +3
    It remains to figure out why the development of the Russian Navy has gone down such a flawed path that you have to handicraft "ersatz air defense corvettes", who is responsible for this and what to do next.

    - we remember who appointed Chirkov as commander-in-chief, who said that we would fly perfectly on airbuses and Boeings, and now this person declares that he hates the West .... well, we remember who does not give up "their own" ....
  6. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 14 June 2022 14: 44
    -1
    with the heavy hand of Timokhin Klimov, modular corvettes are very scolded, and the author also repeats after them, considering these talkative, but poorly versed in the fleet authors as opinion leaders ...... and of course they forget my idea of ​​\u11356b\uXNUMXbcreating an air defense karakurt and a PLO karakurt, but in on the whole, it must be honestly said that, unlike the aircraft carrier that Russia did not need, the cruiser of the first rank that tragically and senselessly died, and XNUMX frigates who are afraid of the fate of Moscow and therefore sit out in the port, ..... criticized by all imaginary experts, modular mosquito corvettes are at war and even use modularity, for the installation of air defense and wrote that they can have an anti-aircraft defense module, the modules can be stored in warm hangars, modernized, in general, modularity justifies itself! contrary to Timokhin! of course, those who sang odes to ships of the first rank and especially to an unnecessary aircraft carrier were put to shame, ships of not only the first but also the second rank are too big for the closed seas, they all need to be urgently transferred to the north and Kamchatka ..... it was the same with unnecessary battleships in WWI and the Second World War, pointlessly standing in the port while submarines and wooden sea hunters were actively solving combat missions ... the current war proved me right, as much as I advised to transport Moscow to the North, unfortunately they didn’t hear me and that’s the tragic result, and the same will happen with everything big surface fleet in the closed seas .....
    1. Vladimir Vitalin (Vladimir Vitalin) 15 June 2022 00: 22
      +2
      Respected:
      1. The idea of ​​​​creating a small air defense or anti-aircraft defense corvette based on the enlarged Karakurt is very interesting !!!
      2. An aircraft carrier for the Navy is a moot point, I do not agree with everything, but in reality it is a matter of the possibility of building them for the needs of our fleet and, in general, the need for them.
      3. Frigate 11356 - originally an anti-submarine ship, air defense is really only "present", but can only be used in a small collision, in a real battle it is absolutely not effective
      4. Modular ships - you can say anything, but they are NOT!!! (or - no longer) in any fleet of the world, only with us because of the greedy and dumb-headed leaders of the Navy, who saw in someone else's unsuccessful idea an opportunity to "saw" the budget ... These ships are absolutely useless, unarmed and, like you you know yourself, there will be no modules for them for another 10 years, if they are created at all ...
      And the fact that this is a failed project was clear from the very beginning ...
      And where they are fighting now or where they fought, I don’t know something about this ...
      And then there is the corvette-frigate "Mercury" on the way - the same, only more, and most importantly - EXPENSIVE ... This is where you can turn around with theft ...
      And from these ships it was necessary to immediately make 3 small PLO corvettes and 3 small air defense corvettes, so that they would act in pairs, and not try to cross the "hedgehog and snake" now ... (by the way - TOR has already fired from the deck of our frigate of the year 2 back and successfully, but it was a frigate ...).
      5. "Mosquito" fleet - certainly needed, but without any perversions with "modularity", etc. Each warship, especially a small one, must have a specific purpose ...
      1. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 15 June 2022 07: 48
        +2
        I’m now worried not so much about the mosquito fleet, but about the fate of the nuclear submarines around the bases of which yesterday we needed more PLO frigates and PLO corvettes ... SSBNs abandoned to the mercy of fate are a betrayal = a crime of admirals compared to which the senseless death of Moscow in a closed water area surrounded by coastal missiles, it will just be a trifle ..... what is the loss of a strategic submarine fleet ????!!!!!! meanwhile, for the sake of the second star in pursuit, the admiralty smeared frigates and large ocean-going corvettes across the warm seas, exposed nuclear submarine bases, depriving them of anti-aircraft defense systems, exposed coastal anti-ship missiles and doomed all these ships and their crews to senseless quick death in closed seas surrounded by enemy anti-ship missiles in a large number .... admirals under the tribunal!
        1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
          Marzhecki (Sergei) 15 June 2022 11: 37
          +2
          Vladimir, but one of the main purposes of the Kuzi and full-fledged aircraft carriers is to cover the deployment areas of the SSBNs.
          1. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
            Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 15 June 2022 22: 52
            -2
            Quote: Marzhetsky
            SSBN deployment areas

            you, like all aircraft carriers, step into the same puddle, you can’t cover any deployment areas for Kuzey, these areas are under the ice at the North Pole or off the coast of California, he can’t survive there, ....... you can cover only a radius of 1000 km around nuclear submarine bases for their safe exit and return, this is the shoulder of coastal aviation and therefore an aircraft carrier is not needed there, Russia does not need it at all, it has no tasks
            1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
              Marzhecki (Sergei) 16 June 2022 08: 52
              +1
              You are ignoring that we have not one, but two ocean fleets.
              1. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
                Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 16 June 2022 19: 36
                -1
                Quote: Marzhetsky
                You are ignoring that we have not one, but two ocean fleets.

                what are you up to? an aircraft carrier is not needed on both oceans, it is clear to any sane person
  7. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 14 June 2022 14: 52
    -1
    the author writes about the price ... comparing with a pair of corvettes, but firstly, that pair of large corvettes is not ideal and its air defense is rather weak and everyone knows this, and a large corvette is a large target, secondly 6 is not a pair ... so mine the long-standing idea to have only ships of the third rank on the closed seas, and to transfer the entire surface fleet of the second rank to where it is needed, that is, to the north and Kamchatka, is true, ships of the third rank are easily redeployed by inland waterways and the Tatar Strait, they are cheaper and more efficient than surface mastodons, three ships of the third rank of URO air defense and anti-aircraft defense perfectly replace a whole frigate and even a cruiser ..... and submarines are useless on the BF .... and all admirals resign for not thinking about my idea and losing the cruiser as a result
    1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
      Marzhecki (Sergei) 14 June 2022 16: 06
      +5
      and all admirals resign for the fact that didn't think about my idea and as a result we lost the cruiser

      Damn, Vladimir, I take off my hat hi
  8. Yuri V.A Offline Yuri V.A
    Yuri V.A (Yuri) 14 June 2022 14: 57
    +1
    An air defense corvette is nonsense, an expensive and super-niche thing, like the Israeli Saar6. It's definitely not our way.
  9. wladimirjankov Offline wladimirjankov
    wladimirjankov (Vladimir Yankov) 14 June 2022 15: 35
    +10
    No one in Russia has been responsible for anything for 30 years now. Therefore, a uniform mess is happening in the country, and therefore in the army and navy. Non-professionals, incompetent people are put in key positions, whose main task is not the business they should serve, but the management of cash flows, the "mastering" and theft of budget money, lining their pockets and those who appointed them. It is not the army and navy that determine what they need to increase their combat capability and what they will have to fight on, but officials who have nothing to do with them. All this is proved by the military events in Ukraine. For the fourth month we have been marking time in one place in the dombas, we cannot even drive the Bandera from Donetsk, so that civilians there do not die from their shelling. All this time, our "experts" were trying to talk about "boilers", the collapse and complete defeat of the Nazis, but the reality turned out to be different. Where is the power of our valiant army, which allows these kams to freely move their equipment, artillery, manpower, receive reinforcements, Western weapons, help and strike at Russian cities, dombas villages and our country. We cannot even organize a full-fledged counter-battery fight. After all, these bandits can hit residential buildings for half an hour, and often they get away with it. I don’t even want to talk about the fleet, after the mediocre loss of the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet, Moscow and the large landing craft in the port. His condition is understandable. The current situation in the country is reminiscent of the Finnish war. Then, too, for the leadership of the USSR, the true state of affairs in our army was an unpleasant surprise. Only after that they itched, they began to do something and change, but by the age of 41 they were still not ready.
    1. Dukhskrepny Offline Dukhskrepny
      Dukhskrepny (Vasya) 14 June 2022 20: 41
      +7
      So the leadership of the USSR started from scratch. 20 years as soon as the Civil War ended and the country was rebuilt. And here they ruined the country for 30 years. have to lie and dodge
    2. Vladimir Vitalin (Vladimir Vitalin) 15 June 2022 00: 06
      -5
      With such a fighting fuse, I suggest that you pick up a machine gun yourself and try to storm the positions of the Armed Forces of Ukraine near Avdeevka yourself ... well, something like "show how it should be" ... Dear, it's one thing to theorize about the development of our Navy, and another to sit in a trench under fire and then rise to height at the command "attack!!!" ... do not go too far and do not go where you are not competent ...
    3. boriz Online boriz
      boriz (boriz) 15 June 2022 00: 34
      +2
      No one in Russia has been responsible for anything for 30 years now.

      You are in vain. Also how they respond. For a competent cut of the budget and sending kickbacks where necessary.
  10. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
    Marzhecki (Sergei) 14 June 2022 16: 05
    +1
    Quote: vladimir1155
    with the heavy hand of Timokhin Klimov, modular corvettes are very scolded, and the author also repeats after them, considering these talkative, but poorly versed in the fleet authors as opinion leaders ...... and of course they forget my idea of ​​\u11356b\uXNUMXbcreating an air defense karakurt and a PLO karakurt, but in on the whole, it must be honestly said that, unlike the aircraft carrier that Russia did not need, the cruiser of the first rank that tragically and senselessly died, and XNUMX frigates who are afraid of the fate of Moscow and therefore sit out in the port, ..... criticized by all imaginary experts, modular mosquito corvettes are at war and even use modularity, for the installation of air defense and wrote that they can have an anti-aircraft defense module, the modules can be stored in warm hangars, modernized, in general, modularity justifies itself! contrary to Timokhin! of course, those who sang odes to ships of the first rank and especially to an unnecessary aircraft carrier were put to shame, ships of not only the first but also the second rank are too big for the closed seas, they all need to be urgently transferred to the north and Kamchatka ..... it was the same with unnecessary battleships in WWI and the Second World War, pointlessly standing in the port while submarines and wooden sea hunters were actively solving combat missions ... the current war proved me right, as much as I advised to transport Moscow to the North, unfortunately they didn’t hear me and that’s the tragic result, and the same will happen with everything big surface fleet in the closed seas .....

    It's amazing how different conclusions can be drawn from the same facts. smile
    P.S. Is Klimov poorly versed in naval affairs?
    1. Fourth Horseman Offline Fourth Horseman
      Fourth Horseman (Fourth Horseman) 14 June 2022 20: 10
      +1
      Marzhetsky, well, you are a multi-specialist!)
      And the reader, and the reaper, and the player on the pipe.))
      1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
        Marzhecki (Sergei) 15 June 2022 07: 53
        -1
        This is true. I am an extraordinary and exceptional person, without any false modesty. smile Unlike those like you.
        1. Fourth Horseman Offline Fourth Horseman
          Fourth Horseman (Fourth Horseman) 15 June 2022 08: 58
          0
          I'm talking about this.))
          An exceptional demagogue, and an extraordinary populist ..... in a narrow circle.
          1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
            Marzhecki (Sergei) 15 June 2022 11: 36
            0
            An exceptional demagogue and an extraordinary populist

            Can you justify your statements somehow?

            in a narrow circle.

            You have a narrow circle.
            1. The comment was deleted.
              1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 14 June 2022 21: 51
      +1
      Quote: Marzhetsky
      Is Klimov poorly versed in naval affairs?

      I respect Klimov for his integrity, but to my surprise, Klimov offered to defend Kaliningrad with an aircraft carrier!!!!??? to which I reasonably answered that in the Baltic Sea the Russian Federation does not have ANY port for an aircraft carrier, and even a raid is difficult to find, but now I’ll add ..... the death of an aircraft carrier from one coastal missile would be a scandal worse than the death of Moscow, and even the aircraft carrier would stick out of the water as a reminder because the sea is shallow ... I think Timokhin had a pernicious influence on Klimov, all sorts of toys like an unnecessary aircraft carrier, since when Klimov became friends with Timokhin he has become different and I won’t be surprised if it turns out that he visits the Atlantic hotel, , ... meetings of members of the totalitarian destructive sect of aircraft carriers
      1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
        Marzhecki (Sergei) 15 June 2022 08: 16
        +3
        Aircraft carriers really have nothing to do in the Baltic. They have a place in the Northern Fleet and the Pacific. Aviki are really needed there.
        1. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
          Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 15 June 2022 08: 44
          0
          Quote: Marzhetsky
          in the Northern Fleet and the Pacific

          thanks Sergey for stating the obvious fact that large ships have nothing to do on closed seas surrounded by coastal anti-ship missiles of the enemy ...... however, an aircraft carrier specifically in Russia is not needed now on the ocean, there are also a number of threats, and an aircraft carrier alone in the sea is not a warrior, its air defense is an order of magnitude weaker than that of the deceased cruiser, the aircraft carrier requires a large escort, surface ships .... there are no such number of surface ships now in the entire Russian Navy, which means the aircraft carrier will not be able to go to sea, which means it is not needed, although it would be useful to China and India, which have a large number of escort ships to create AUGs and tasks far from their shores ..... and waiting for the creation of a large surface fleet in the Russian Federation is stupid, firstly, it will not be in the foreseeable future, and secondly, there are much more important tasks (NPS minesweepers coastal aviation), thirdly, the tasks for the AUG are not clear ..... but Kuzya? while the grass (surface fleet) grows up, the horse (Kuzya) will die of hunger (will go to scrap by age) so sell it
          1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
            Marzhecki (Sergei) 15 June 2022 11: 34
            +1
            Vladimir, well, no one in their right mind offers to drop everything and build aviks to the detriment of everything else. To build an aircraft carrier is 10-15 years, a series of 3-4 is even longer. During this time, both escort ships and mosquitoes, so beloved by you, will be built.

            however, an aircraft carrier specifically in Russia is not needed right now on the ocean, there are also a number of threats, and an aircraft carrier alone is not a warrior at sea, its air defense is an order of magnitude weaker than that of a deceased cruiser, an aircraft carrier requires a large escort, surface ships .... so many there are no surface ships now in the entire Russian Navy, which means the aircraft carrier will not be able to go to sea, which means it is not needed

            You're just changing the topic of discussion. You say that Avik is not needed because there are no escort ships. And he is needed, like escort ships.

            And do not sell Kuzya to India or China. Try to build a similar ship later. Once it has been preserved, it must be patched up and used as a training ground for carrier-based aviation pilots with an eye on the future, to work out actions in the AUG format with an eye on the future, etc.

            and it is stupid to wait for the creation of a large surface fleet in the Russian Federation, firstly, it will not be in the foreseeable future, secondly, there are much more important tasks (minesweepers of nuclear submarines, coastal aviation), thirdly, the tasks for the AUG are not clear ...

            All tasks for aviks and AUGs are listed on the website of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation. I gave a link.
            Our fleet will get a second wind if we return Nikolaev.

            P.S. Personally, I am a supporter of the idea of ​​​​sufficiency of the aircraft carrier fleet. I believe that nuclear giants with a displacement of 80-100 tons. redundant, and the country will not pull them in the foreseeable future. But a series of 3-4 light (medium) aircraft carriers with a displacement of 40-45 tons, with a conventional gas turbine, and a wing of up to 24 fighters plus helicopters and UAVs, depending on the task, is something that will really benefit Northern and Pacific Fleets.
            1. Spasatel Offline Spasatel
              Spasatel 15 June 2022 22: 41
              +2
              ... the country will not pull them in the foreseeable future

              Yes, stealing like this power will not pull anything. In general, you can build everything! Only for this you need to work, have an education and a desire to do it. But we don’t want to work, we only want to steal, education is reduced to a minimum, there are no desires, except for the same thing again - to steal ...
            2. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
              Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 15 June 2022 22: 48
              -2
              you can’t imagine the amount of funds for your aviks, it alone costs as much as half of the country’s air defense, like hundreds of aircraft, and that is why they build few frigates, that all this is very expensive, the military budget is not rubber and the need for your aviks is in last place, we urgently need and constantly the Strategic Missile Forces. Aerospace Forces, EW, drones, Artillery, nuclear submarines, minesweepers, PLO coastal aviation, frigates and repairs 1155, tanks ... there is no money for Avik
              1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
                Marzhecki (Sergei) 16 June 2022 08: 54
                +1
                Avik is built for 10-15 years, tarts are laid out gradually for a long time. All calculations of approximate estimates are available a long time ago.
                1. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
                  Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 16 June 2022 19: 18
                  0
                  this will not make it cheaper ..... nuclear submarines of the Strategic Air Defense Forces and the Air Force are also being built for a long time almost constantly
    3. qtfreet Offline qtfreet
      qtfreet (Stephen Hawkins) 14 June 2022 22: 42
      0
      Can this case be called "still better than nothing"? Let's be honest, taking the right first step is harder than it looks. No, I don’t justify the Black Sea Fleet at all, but just for the fact that they began to pay attention to this, one could say thank you. And then they will draw the right conclusions.
    4. k7k8 Online k7k8
      k7k8 (vic) 14 June 2022 22: 54
      0
      Is it necessary to copy-paste the entire comment?
  11. Potapov Offline Potapov
    Potapov (Valery) 14 June 2022 18: 46
    +1
    A striking contrast in the organization and planning of the construction of the fleet with the USSR. Of course, it’s expensive, but as Kursk and Moscow have shown, it hurts more when it’s even worse ...
  12. Dukhskrepny Offline Dukhskrepny
    Dukhskrepny (Vasya) 14 June 2022 20: 35
    0
    It will do for the Zaputin Navy anyway. The main thing is to introduce a priest into the crew for a daily prayer service and in the mornings during the formation to sing the hymn "God Save the Tsar"
    1. Fourth Horseman Offline Fourth Horseman
      Fourth Horseman (Fourth Horseman) 14 June 2022 21: 49
      -2
      Selyanen, show off your naval inflatable raft.
  13. Kofesan Offline Kofesan
    Kofesan (Valery) 14 June 2022 21: 05
    +2
    Oh no! I will never agree with the derogatory "ersatzcorvettes".
    Even without knowledge ... And even more so without the poisonously self-confident tone of the "omniscient" Ukrainians, I know for sure that the monstrous Aircraft-carrying coffins and "masterpieces" of a futuristic look like Zumwalt are not the pinnacle of naval military power, but prey ... for a flock of such "boats".

    From which the first, well, very quickly hide in the ports, and thousands of miles after the first reports of going to sea, these "wolf cubs". Maybe the Americans do not know about the "works" of Marzhetsky?
    1. Fourth Horseman Offline Fourth Horseman
      Fourth Horseman (Fourth Horseman) 14 June 2022 21: 57
      -1
      The sect of witnesses of the USSR, on the reporter, will soon be able to create Marzhetsky's quote book.
      He has a great future ahead of him!
      1. Kofesan Offline Kofesan
        Kofesan (Valery) 14 June 2022 23: 18
        +2
        Why "sect"? In the CIA (which the old counterintelligence officers called, for some reason, "SRU") they sound the alarm, "full collection" and "stand in their places" when someone clicks on "publish" in the Reporter ...

        How are they supposed to know, poor fellows, whether they are on "incompetent" 2 × 4 "Caliber-K" with Kh-35 or not? Here Marzhetsky - knows. For...

        This sect of "witnesses of the USSR" is itself incapable of anything and missed everything it could:
        February 24th, Syria, Ukraine, Afghanistan... One hope is not to click through the publication!

        No ... most likely they chuckle through their teeth: "POLUNDRA" ... What is translated from the sea! means:

        "... ABOVE!!!",
        In terms of:
        ... truth "! Right now, "TRUE" WILL SPILL on us from heaven ...

        1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
          Marzhecki (Sergei) 15 June 2022 08: 03
          0
          Why "sect"? In the CIA (which the old counterintelligence officers called, for some reason, "SRU") they sound the alarm, "full collection" and "stand in their places" when someone clicks on "publish" in the Reporter ...

          Major publications are monitored promptly by Russian and foreign intelligence services.

          How are they supposed to know, poor fellows, whether they are on "incompetent" 2 × 4 "Caliber-K" with Kh-35 or not? Here Marzhetsky - knows. For...

          I know, because this is my job, and this information is not secret. smile

          This sect of "witnesses of the USSR" is itself incapable of anything and missed everything it could:
          February 24th, Syria, Ukraine, Afghanistan... One hope is not to click through the publication!

          I described in detail what will happen in Russia and Ukraine in May 2015.
          https://topwar.ru/74309-posmotri-rekviem-po-novorossii.html
          How did I know all this? Because I am an exceptionally intelligent, erudite and far-sighted person with outstanding analytical and predictive abilities. wink
          1. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
            Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 16 June 2022 06: 36
            0
            Quote: Marzhetsky
            https://topwar.ru/74309-posmotri-rekviem-po-novorossii.html

            revered..... I respect, but all this was clear to anyone who understands politics at least a little, .... and you did not foresee the factor of nuclear weapons, and most importantly, the abolition of the payment of tribute to America under the budget rule, Ukraine was set against Russia, primarily because the respected and courageous President Putin canceled the colonial humiliated slave tribute to America, this happened just a month before the war, and this the most important step of the president, we are no longer a colony, we are a free nation,... and the NWO will end and the world has already changed, the hegemony of the United States, mired in depravity, atheism and other perversions is over! cheers comrades! , CBO is the last nail in the US coffin ... After this, I saw another Angel descending from heaven and having great power; the earth was illuminated from his glory. 2 And he cried out loudly, with a loud voice, saying, Babylon, the great harlot, is fallen, is fallen; for she made all nations drunk with the wine of the wrath of her fornication, 3 and the kings of the earth committed adultery with her, and the merchants of the earth grew rich from her great luxury. 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, so that you do not share in her sins and not be exposed to her plagues; 5 For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities. 6 Repay her as she repaid you, and repay her double according to her deeds; in the cup in which she made wine for you, make double for her. 7 How much she was famous and luxurious, give her so much torment and sorrow. For she says in her heart: “I am sitting as a queen, I am not a widow and I will not see sorrow!” 8 Therefore, in one day plagues, death, and mourning, and famine will come upon her, and she will be burned with fire, because the Lord God is mighty who judges her. 9 And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived in luxury with her, will weep and mourn over her, when they see the smoke from her fire, 10 standing afar off for fear of her torment, and saying: Woe, woe to you, great city of Babylon, strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come. 11 And the merchants of the earth will mourn and mourn over her, because no one buys their goods anymore, 12 goods of gold and silver, and precious stones, and pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and purple, and every fragrant wood, and all kinds of articles of 13 cinnamon and incense, and myrrh and frankincense, and wine and oil, and flour and wheat, and cattle and sheep, and horses and chariots, and bodies and human souls. 14 And the fruits that were pleasing to your soul were not with you, and everything that was fat and radiant was gone from you; you won't find it anymore. 15 Those who traded in all this, enriched by her, will stand far from the fear of her torment, weeping and weeping 16 and saying: Woe, woe to you, the great city, dressed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, 17 for in such wealth perished in one hour! And all the helmsmen, and all those sailing in ships, and all the sailors, and all those who traded on the sea, stood afar off 18 and, seeing the smoke from her fire, cried out, saying: What a city is like a great city! 19 And they sprinkled ashes on their heads, and cried, weeping and weeping: Woe, woe to you, the great city, whose jewels were enriched by all that had ships on the sea, for it was desolate in one hour! 20 Rejoice in this, heaven and holy apostles and prophets; for God has executed your judgment upon him. 21 And one strong angel took a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying: With such an urge Babylon, the great city, will be overthrown, and she will no longer be. 22 And the voices of those who play the harp, and those who sing, and those who play the flutes, and those who blow trumpets, will no longer be heard in you; there will no longer be any artist in you, no art, and the noise from the millstones will no longer be heard in you; 23 and the light of the lamp will no longer appear in you; and the voice of the bridegroom and the bride will no longer be heard in you: for your merchants were the nobles of the earth, and all nations were deceived by your magic.
            1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
              Marzhecki (Sergei) 16 June 2022 09: 02
              +1
              I read it ..... I respect it, but all this was clear to anyone who understands politics at least a little

              Why was this not clear to our wisest Geopolitician? Since 2014, I have been writing on all platforms how it will all end.
      2. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
        Marzhecki (Sergei) 15 June 2022 07: 53
        +1
        The sect of witnesses of the USSR, on the reporter, will soon be able to create Marzhetsky's quote book.
        He has a great future ahead of him!

        Yes, it will. Be afraid.
    2. Vladimir Vitalin (Vladimir Vitalin) 15 June 2022 00: 00
      +2
      With all due respect - I'm a deeply Russian person and this is precisely what does not allow me to turn a blind eye to such boundless theft and deceit ... These ships (if you can call them that) do not pose ANY threat to the enemy, from the word "ABSOLUTELY" !!! They simply don’t have (and won’t have for another 10 years, if at all) weapons capable of at least drowning something ...
    3. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
      Marzhecki (Sergei) 15 June 2022 07: 54
      +1
      From which the first, well, very quickly hide in the ports, and thousands of miles after the first reports of going to sea, these "wolf cubs". Maybe the Americans do not know about the "works" of Marzhetsky?

      They know, they read, they even quote. And, in very serious offices. Believe me.
  14. Sergey Latyshev Offline Sergey Latyshev
    Sergey Latyshev (Serge) 14 June 2022 21: 22
    +1
    It remains to figure out why the development of the Russian Navy has gone down such a flawed path that you have to handicraft "ersatz air defense corvettes", who is responsible for this and what to do next.

    All this was sorted out on VO, with dates, names, reasons, and more than once.
    Briefly: the anti-aircraft complex for not weak money was developed by "its own" company, which had never done this before.
    They decided not to fit the existing good samples into the corvette format, since you can’t cut enough on this ..
    1. Vladimir Vitalin (Vladimir Vitalin) 14 June 2022 23: 56
      +1
      Yes, they figured it out, even with the President on the treatment of the authors with VO, but the result is obvious ...
      Or maybe castrate embezzlers so that they do not multiply ... in my opinion, a normal idea ...
  15. k7k8 Online k7k8
    k7k8 (vic) 14 June 2022 23: 04
    0
    I have nothing to do with the naval theme, but I can remind the apologists of gigantism present here that Peter the Great won one of his great naval victories - the battle of Gangut in 1714 with the forces of the mosquito fleet, utterly defeating the all-powerful Swedish flotilla of monsters. This is to the fact that for each type of weapon, if it is developed with feeling, properly, with the arrangement, there will be an appropriate application. They found, for example, a niche for PO-2, for which German pilots, without any remorse, took the iron cross.
    1. Vladimir Vitalin (Vladimir Vitalin) 14 June 2022 23: 55
      +1
      Dear, the days of the glorious Gangut are long gone ... Now it’s hard to imagine that on motorboats, even with missiles, you can defeat an aircraft carrier group .... times are not the same ...
      1. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
        Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 16 June 2022 06: 47
        0
        And now with small means you can achieve big results.
        https://topwar.ru/32711-podryv-esminca-koul-mosch-i-uyazvimost-vms-ssha.html
    2. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
      Marzhecki (Sergei) 15 June 2022 08: 05
      0
      The point is not gigantism, but the sufficiency of the size and displacement of the ship to solve the task. An aircraft carrier and a helicopter carrier, by definition, must be large, a corvette - small.
      And the article is about something else, if you haven't noticed.
  16. Vladimir Vitalin (Vladimir Vitalin) 14 June 2022 23: 52
    +2
    As much has been written about the ships of this project as they have not written about any others. Anyone who is more or less versed in the design of ships and the concept of saturating our fleet with them was clear from the very beginning - this is just an overt THEFT of funds from the defense budget, under the beautiful wrapper of "ship modularity", which EVERYONE has already abandoned !!! the countries that built them, even the United States ... But our interested admirals, with the support of USC, with incredible perseverance, promoted this project with all their might, although it even came to V.V. Putin .... There were many publications that this was outright theft, undermining the combat capability of the fleet, etc., but the result was that our fleet received 6 absolutely (by naval standards) unarmed and in real conditions not usable cans worth 36 billion rubles. Whatever someone writes in support of this project, but in its current form it is absolutely useless, moreover, it is harmful, as it eats up the resources of the fleet, and modules for it are not expected in the next 5-10 years (the fleet just has more important tasks) . And there is no need to defend the advantages of this project with foam at the mouth - THEY SIMPLY DON'T!!! And now, a painfully miserable attempt to create at least something worthwhile on the basis of these motor boats ... But it would be necessary to figure out who personally inflicted such material damage on the country, and this / these gentlemen should sit and sit for a long time ... Unfortunately, this is not the end of the story - corvette "Mercury" at a price of 1.5 frigates - a bright continuation. The same concept, even more expensive, the same unarmed ... Why so many idiots in the leadership of the Navy ... No, probably not idiots - professional embezzlers ...
    1. Vasya Pupkin_2 Offline Vasya Pupkin_2
      Vasya Pupkin_2 (Vasya Pupkin) 15 June 2022 06: 49
      0
      corvette "daring" (project 20386) probably you mean?
    2. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
      Marzhecki (Sergei) 15 June 2022 08: 14
      0
      They can be rented out to our oligarchs instead of confiscated yachts, for example. smile
    3. wolf46 Offline wolf46
      wolf46 15 June 2022 10: 39
      +1
      According to TASS, the Russian Navy will refuse an additional series of six Project 22160 patrol ships. In my opinion, it was worth limiting ourselves to three ships and breaking the contract.
  17. k7k8 Online k7k8
    k7k8 (vic) 15 June 2022 08: 52
    -1
    Quote: Marzhetsky
    in the adequacy of the size and displacement of the ship to solve the problem

    Did I say something wrong?

    This is to the fact that for each type of weapon, if it is developed with feeling, sensibly, with placement, there will be an appropriate application.

    Or Musyu reads only the beginning of the post?

    Quote: Marzhetsky
    Believe me

    On matters of faith, not here, but either in the Ideological Department of the Central Committee of the CPSU to Comrade. Suslov (which is problematic), or in the Russian Orthodox Church to the Patriarch of Moscow and All Russia Kirill (of course, if you are Orthodox).

    Quote: Marzhetsky
    There Aviki really needed

    Looks like xperd outplayed tanks. Or will Gulchatay still open her face?
    1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
      Marzhecki (Sergei) 15 June 2022 11: 26
      0
      And you, it turns out, are a banal Belarusian Hamlo, my friend. No.
  18. k7k8 Online k7k8
    k7k8 (vic) 15 June 2022 13: 30
    0
    Quote: Vladimir Vitalin
    that on motor boats, even with missiles, you can defeat an aircraft carrier group

    Does anyone suggest doing this? Each vegetable has its own garden.
  19. k7k8 Online k7k8
    k7k8 (vic) 15 June 2022 13: 41
    +2
    Quote: Marzhetsky
    And you, it turns out, are a banal Belarusian Hamlo, my friend.

    If Hamlo, then no more than you. At least, I do not claim that there are two opinions - mine and the wrong one. I do not undertake to give advice to presidents, especially other countries. I do not accuse the presidents of other countries of being inactive when Russia is at war. I'm not saying that "Russia owes..." anything to anyone. I do not take phrases out of context, unlike you, and before replying to a post, I read it in full. You downvote even a post in which something was said approvingly about your point of view. And the fact that you are not a specialist and not a real Expert with a capital "E" betrays your jargon - a real specialist will not call an AVIK aircraft carrier. That is why I concluded that you outplayed tanks (and, it seems, was not mistaken).
    Z.Y. You are even rude on a national basis, knowing nothing about the interlocutor. It is not good to be rude to compatriots, even if they live on the territory of other countries. Although what am I talking about? After all, the right Russians live exclusively from Russia.
    1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
      Marzhecki (Sergei) 16 June 2022 08: 58
      0
      Your comment is one big rip-off. hi
  20. Alexey Lan Offline Alexey Lan
    Alexey Lan (Alexey Lantukh) 15 June 2022 18: 30
    0
    I am not a sailor. Sofa expert. I am interested in technology, including ships. I read all the comments. Has concluded. Sailors need to buy a trawler without fishing stuffing. Then refine and equip it with what you need. Including air defense. Trawlers, as I understand it, are strong ships. And for the Black and the Baltic Fleet it would fit. Comment.
    1. Spasatel Offline Spasatel
      Spasatel 15 June 2022 22: 49
      0
      Young, oh, young!
    2. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 16 June 2022 06: 52
      0
      in any case, armed trawlers are an order of magnitude more useful than a senseless bulky aircraft carrier, although now the wars are fleeting and they won’t have time to re-equip the trawlers, but the kuzya seems to always never get anywhere from his eternal repair, where he uselessly takes up space with his carcass preventing the really necessary ships from being repaired
      1. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
        Marzhecki (Sergei) 16 June 2022 08: 58
        0
        Vladimir, how long will any mosquito and a rearmed trawler last in the event of an attack by enemy aircraft or anti-ship missiles?
        1. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
          Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 16 June 2022 19: 20
          0
          no less than a meaningless avik that will turn upside down from the first rocket, taking 4000 people with it
  21. Winnie Offline Winnie
    Winnie (Winnie) 16 June 2022 02: 03
    0
    It is clear that following the results of the Cold War, Russia was forbidden to have an ocean-going fleet necessary to cover SSBN combat patrol areas. So there are no full-fledged ships of the 1st rank. (No need for the lack of money! Every year the country has a budget surplus that goes to America. [The Pentagon needs it more.])
    This is a lyrical digression. What to do in this situation? Use the experience of the Falklands War, when the Britons converted container ships into aircraft carriers. And using Club-K, you can even mold a URO cruiser out of it.
  22. Marzhecki Online Marzhecki
    Marzhecki (Sergei) 16 June 2022 09: 00
    0
    Quote: Winnie
    Use the experience of the Falklands War, when the Britons converted container ships into aircraft carriers. And using Club-K, you can even mold a URO cruiser out of it.

    In fact, the Britons were simply transported across the ocean on Harrier container ships. They took off and landed on light aircraft carriers. I'm just genuinely curious about this topic.
  23. 1_2 Offline 1_2
    1_2 (Ducks are flying) 16 June 2022 12: 52
    0
    ... on the ship model of project 22160, shown at the International Maritime Defense Show IMDS-2013 in St. Petersburg, two modules for the Shtil-1 air defense system (24 missiles) were placed between the bow gun and the superstructure, two containers were placed under the flight deck aft. In the export version, the project 22160 ship can be additionally equipped with: 1 x Shtil-1 anti-aircraft missile system with two modular PUZS90E.1, 1 x Caliber-NKE integrated missile system or 1 x Uran-E shipborne missile system with two launchers, 1 x GAS "Vignette..

    a toothless target corvette can be easily turned into a full-fledged combat one, you just need to find out the FSB who does not want to do this. I would also add a couple of Duet guns on each side


  24. svit55 Offline svit55
    svit55 (Sergey Valentinovich) 16 June 2022 22: 52
    0
    The last victory of our fleet is Sinop. In modern times, there is only hope for the submarine fleet, and everything that hangs on the surface is a completely useless armada, very expensive and incapable of defending itself, not to mention an attack. Why did they keep "Moscow" in the Black Sea? Yes, for parades, what else to go to sea with the commander of the Black Sea Fleet? And so the NWO began, all ground and air forces take part, gain experience, etc. What is the use of the fleet? Serpentine? So it can be polished with a missile and bomb strike and land troops from any barge. But this is not the cost of "Moscow".