How the frigate Admiral Makarov was "raised" as the flagship in Ukraine and "drowned" it


After the tragic death of the Russian cruiser Moskva, for a reason not yet officially established, the Ukrainian media broke loose. Over the past 10 days, they managed to “produce” the frigate “Admiral Makarov” into the new flagships of the Black Sea Fleet of the Russian Federation and safely “drown” it. Luckily, it all happened entirely in their fantasies. But why was this particular ship chosen by Ukrainian propagandists for the role of another "sacred victim"?


Future flagship


As we have detailed told Earlier, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation sees one of the two project 23900 universal landing ships, which are currently being built in Kerch at the Zaliv plant, as the future flagship of the Black Sea Fleet.

The total displacement of the "Russian Mistrals", which are being built to replace the French helicopter carriers, reaches 40 tons. Each Russian UDC will be able to take on board up to 000 marines and up to 1000 armored vehicles. His aviation group, which consists of 75 helicopters and 16 UAVs, turns a huge "barge" into a warship. Depending on the assigned task, the universal landing ship will be able to be equipped with Ka-4K reconnaissance and attack helicopters, Ka-52 transport and combat helicopters, Ka-29 anti-submarine helicopters, as well as Ka-27 AWACS helicopters. UDC deck-based unmanned vehicles can be both reconnaissance and strike.

It was decided that one of the helicopter carriers, Ivan Rogov, would go to the Pacific Fleet to strengthen the KTOF in its confrontation with militaristic Japan. The second, Mitrofan Moskalenko, will become the new flagship of the Black Sea Fleet. In the Sevastopol Bay, work has already begun and is underway to create infrastructure to service such a large ship in terms of displacement.

However, the launch of the future flagship is expected only in 2027, and commissioning even later - in 2029. Until then, as apparently assumed in the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, the Moscow will be able to stretch, which has not really gone through serious modernization. Alas, the old cruiser died, and the place turned out to be vacant ahead of schedule. Then which of the Russian ships can claim to become the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet of the Russian Federation until 2029?

Three "Admirals"


The situation in the Black Sea is currently complicated by the fact that Turkey has closed its straits for the passage of Russian warships. This means that it is not possible to transfer to Sevastopol, for example, the cruiser Marshal Ustinov or the Project 22350 frigate Admiral Kasatonov. Even if it were possible, such a step would weaken the Northern Fleet of the Russian Federation and not only noticeably strengthen the Black Sea Fleet, which is forced to act under the gunpoint of anti-ship missiles in service with the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

In the bottom line, three Project 11356R frigates, Admiral Makarov, Admiral Essen and Admiral Grigorovich, which are part of the Black Sea Fleet, can immediately claim the role of the new flagship. Note that the RF Ministry of Defense was seriously considering replacing the cruiser with a ship of the 2nd rank back in 2014:

In 2015, the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet "Moskva" will go for modernization to the Severodvinsk plant "Zvezdochka", its place will be taken by one of the ships of the first or second rank in the fleet.

This was even before the ugly story with the Mistrals, when the fleet was waiting for the arrival of new frigates of project 11356R:

Most likely, one of these frigates will become the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet.

With regret, we have to state that the Russian frigates of project 11356R are clearly not up to the level of the flagship of the fleet, waging real battles in the Black Sea.

The main armament of this, in fact, patrol ship is only 8 sea-based Caliber missiles, placed in a 3S14 vertical launcher. She has truncated capabilities and cannot carry, for example, Onyx anti-ship missiles, despite her "universality". The artillery complex consists of a single-gun artillery mount A-190 and a fire control system 5P-10. The gun allows effective firing at a distance of up to 20 kilometers at a speed of 80 rounds per minute.

The defense of the frigate is rather weak. The towed sonar system (GAS) was removed and replaced with an obsolete under-keel GAS with a detection range of 12 kilometers. The RBU-6000 anti-submarine warfare and anti-torpedo defense means (RGB-60, 90R, 90R1) have an excess weight and reduced performance characteristics compared to the more modern Paket-NK complex. A helicopter on the deck of a frigate can accommodate only one, for example, Ka-27PL or Ka-31. The sea-based air defense system of the 11356R project also does not shine with its characteristics. This is a medium-range anti-aircraft missile system 3K90M "Shtil-1", capable of hitting air targets flying at speeds up to 3 km / s at ranges from 2,5 to 70 km and altitudes from 5 m to 35 km, as well as two obsolete anti-aircraft artillery complex AK-630M short range.

In general, the frigates Admiral Essen and Admiral Makarov showed themselves well as "missile gunboats" by striking cruise missiles at targets on the territory of Ukraine, however, against a raid by fighter aircraft or a strike by modern anti-ship missiles, they will resist, to put it mildly, problematic. It is not surprising that the Ukrainian propagandists appointed the Admiral Makarov frigate, which they themselves made into the new flagships, to the role of a new “sacred victim”. Fortunately, this is fake. The ship is safe and sound. But any frigate of project 22350, much more armed and protected, would have been more suitable for the role of the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet before the entry into service of Mitrofan Moskalenko.
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  1. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 16 May 2022 18: 14
    -2
    respected Sergey Marzhetsky wrote a good article about the fleet (finally cheers!) the conclusion from the article is obvious, all three frigates in the Black Sea are too big and will not survive in the conditions of NATO coastal missiles and will die as ingloriously as Moscow, while their tasks may well be in a closed solve the Buyany M and Karakurt and the MPK, the advantage of which is also the possibility of redeployment by inland waterways .... meanwhile, Sergey Marzhetsky writes correctly, it is impossible to weaken the Northern Fleet, I will say more that it needs to be strengthened for a long time, all three frigates of the Black Sea Fleet and a couple more from the Baltic and all 4 Baltic corvettes = suicide bombers in Baltiysk, shot through from Gdynia, it is simply vital for all of them to the north, there are far from coastal missiles and there need to be a lot of ASW ships to secure our SSBNs .... and the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet? well, the old men Inquisitive or Ladny will do, and we will make Aurora the flagship of the BF
  2. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
    Sapsan136 (Alexander) 16 May 2022 19: 53
    +2
    The Shtil air defense system is quite a decent air defense system, and most importantly, its ammunition load is 20 missiles, capable of carrying out any enemy aircraft from a distance of 40 km. According to NATO qualification, frigates 11356 are air defense frigates. GRK Moscow, at the time of repair, wanted to replace the BOD Kerch, but did not take place. Turkey, sooner or later, will open the straits ... It makes no sense to send old ships to war, as this can lead to their unjustified death. One of the new frigates 22350 should be sent to the Black Sea, or rather a couple, from among the new frigates under construction, such as 'Admiral Golovko'.
    1. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
      Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 16 May 2022 21: 08
      -1
      Quote: Sapsan136
      send one of the new frigates 22350, or rather a couple, from among the new frigates under construction,

      did you count ships in the North and Kamchatka? new frigates are vital there, and you want them in the Black Sea Fleet, where they have no tasks other than fake ones ....... probably the death of Moscow proves that Inquisitive and Ladny will turn into flagships that go to sea only in peacetime to protect shipping, however, they will be written off soon, and we will make some BDK the flagship of the Black Sea Fleet
      1. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
        Sapsan136 (Alexander) 16 May 2022 21: 19
        +2
        Kamchatka is far away, it will be difficult and not always possible to transfer ships from the North to the Kuriles. Inquisitive and Ladny are old anti-submarine ships, they are not multi-purpose. In the North, even without frigates under construction, we have two missile cruisers and already two newest 22350 frigates, this is something ... But there is a war going on in the Black Sea Fleet and modern multi-purpose ships are needed there, otherwise we’ll merge ... At the Black Sea Fleet, the 22350 frigate could become exactly what GRK Moscow was, an air defense umbrella for the fleet, but at a modern level. Without a ship in the radar and long-range air defense systems, landing operations at the Black Sea Fleet become very problematic, and to intercept Ukrainian aviation, which flies from Romanian airfields, you need a ship with an air defense system and a long-range radar, then Moscow stuck around at Serpentine ...
        1. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
          Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 16 May 2022 21: 39
          0
          Quote: Sapsan136
          In the North, even without frigates under construction, we have two missile cruisers and already two newest 22350 frigates, this is something.

          it’s almost nothing, there are important tasks there, SSBNs there, reliable control of the Barents Sea with four ships cannot be carried out, that is, the Northern Fleet is now as impotent as all the fleets of the Russian Federation. And all tasks in the Black Sea Fleet are solved by coastal aviation A100, SU, TU and frigates are not needed there, it is necessary to strengthen the Northern Fleet by all means, including at the expense of the senseless Black Sea Fleet and Baltic Fleet ... the death of Moscow is irrefutable proof of my innocence! or are you also going to destroy a good frigate just as shamefully? why?
          1. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
            Sapsan136 (Alexander) 17 May 2022 08: 43
            +1
            If coastal aviation could do something without a fleet, the Moscow GRK would not stick out at Zmeinoy, and aviation could not even cover the cruiser ... If the new frigate is just a target for missiles, like the old cruiser and cannot repel a missile attack, then build such frigates not necessary. The IPC provides access to combat duty for nuclear submarines, frigates and cruisers are needed for something else. There is no war in the north yet, and a drain on the Black Sea will cost the Russian Federation excessively and cannot be allowed to happen. Rumors about the death of the frigate "Admiral Makarov", to put it mildly, are greatly exaggerated ... so there is not one frigate in the Black Sea Fleet.
            1. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
              Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 17 May 2022 08: 58
              0
              two frigates in the Mediterranean and the Black Sea will not be able to enter, so there is only one frigate in the Black Sea Fleet, The exit of the nuclear submarines from the bases by the old IPCs alone cannot be reliably carried out, for this we need frigates, and not for props, to be a cardboard fool, a target for coastal anti-ship missiles on the closed sea
              1. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
                Sapsan136 (Alexander) 17 May 2022 09: 06
                +1
                In the days of the sailing fleet, frigates performed cruising functions and they do not provide nuclear submarines with access to the sea, it is too expensive to lose such a ship, for example, on mines, and even in coastal waters, in shallow waters, it is difficult for him, because the boat is big enough. There is no doubt that new MPKs need to be built, and people have already proposed building new MPKs based on Karakurts, or Bykov-type patrols, so that the MPK can carry an anti-submarine helicopter. Well, think for yourself how to provide for our grouping in Syria, if there are only 3 frigates in the Black Sea Fleet, and you can’t send missile boats to Syria, they are not multi-purpose, they will be melted there. And the shortest road to Syria is from the Black Sea Fleet. The Black Sea Fleet needs to be strengthened and submarines and a mosquito fleet alone cannot do there
                1. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
                  Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 17 May 2022 20: 41
                  +1
                  I support the idea of ​​​​creating a Karakurt MPK specifically for marine areas, but so far no one has even begun to implement it, minesweepers and RTOs have gone to Syria and successfully, the Mediterranean Sea is not an ocean.
                  1. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
                    Sapsan136 (Alexander) 22 May 2022 19: 08
                    -1
                    They sailed until there was no war at sea and the BDK went without cover, but in Ukraine one BDK was lost, two were damaged, and all because there were no new ships with new air defense systems, or there were few of them and they could not close all important directions on coastal area of ​​operations. And sea transportation is very important, since it is they that allow you to quickly transfer a large amount of cargo. Therefore, it is necessary to organize the safety of such transportation, and here without ships with good air defense systems, this is certainly not the IPC
                    1. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
                      Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 22 May 2022 19: 22
                      -1
                      Karakurt has an air defense missile system m ..... in wartime, no convoys can walk around the Mediterranean, no matter what the escort air defense missiles are, missiles will destroy them and the air defense system will not help because the ship’s air defense system is limited, but in peacetime convoys and patrolmen and RTOs and minesweepers ... in any case, everything that is more than a frigate is not an escort ship, which means it is not necessary
                      1. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
                        Sapsan136 (Alexander) 22 May 2022 19: 32
                        -1
                        The shell is a self-defense air defense missile system with a short range that will not provide protection for a caravan of ships, and this complex itself in bad weather, for example, rain, sharply loses its combat capability and needs to be improved. Ammunition is limited, but large ships have more, and their air defense systems shoot further and are able to intercept not only missiles, but also aircraft from which these missiles can be launched.
                      2. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
                        Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 22 May 2022 19: 42
                        0
                        I ask you to descend to the sinful earth from heaven! there are not enough minesweepers, Russia has not built a single new PLO aircraft since the times of the USSR, what mythical large ships with indestructible all-weather, everlasting, ever-present and omnipotent air defense systems do you talk about for (attention!) The functions of an escort to dry cargo ships ?? there are three old cruisers not far from Moscow (destroyed by one missile) in terms of condition and age ..... and an unnecessary aircraft carrier that recently climbed into the dock with its monstrous clumsy carcass, forever under repair and sucking billions of people's money weakening defense ..... that you mean by large escort ships ..... specify
                      3. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
                        Sapsan136 (Alexander) 26 May 2022 15: 39
                        0
                        Minesweepers are fleet support ships, and without large universal warships, minesweepers will have nothing and no one to provide. These ships do not have any serious weapons, even self-defense, not to mention the attack, and without universal warships they are useless. Something no less than the 22350 frigate, because only it carries the naval version of the S-350 Vityaz air defense system, which can at least somehow provide not only the self-defense of the ship itself, but also the collective defense of a group of warships, large landing ships, or transports. Only such a ship is at least somehow suitable for the role of a flagship, since it has decent armament and decent seaworthiness and cruising range and ammunition, which guarantees at least some of its combat stability, and most importantly, it carries new radars and sonar, which provide timely detection of targets dangerous for the ship. The specialists who talk about the need to build 22350M are far from stupid people, because if we talk about the qualifications of the ships of the Second World War, then 22350 in those years would be called the leader of the destroyers, and 22350M, this is already a light cruiser ... Of course, now someone will write that Arleigh Burke, with a much larger size and ammunition than 22350, is a destroyer ... on paper it is, but in fact our sailors consider a target like Arleigh Burke to be a cruiser. It's all about quality here. The one who will have the best radar and sonar and the best weapons will win ... Our anti-ship missiles are quite up to par and I’m not even talking about the latest Zircon being tested, but about the very real and in service Onyx-M. Our air defense systems are also quite decent, if we talk about new systems, so ships with these new systems are needed today .. And money .. let them collect several hundred rubles from each inhabitant of the Russian Federation, if there is no other option, we will build a cruiser with the whole world .. .and not one ... After the defeat in 1905, warships were built with public donations ... and not only peasants, but also very rich people donated ... So one of the Russian destroyers was named Emir of Bukhara and was built on his funds.
                      4. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
                        Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 26 May 2022 21: 13
                        -1
                        it’s clear, frigates and large frigates (it’s not clear why we need large frigates, if, according to you, there are enough of those that are already in the series), but you are referring to the mythical super unmistakable super-professional "experts" who want a cruiser ... but in general, you didn’t have any arguments and you are trying to refer to external "experts", I know all of them and I know that they themselves do not know the arguments either .... so it didn’t work for you to cunningly turn the arrows on them .... these frigates are built one at a time in two years, and so far no changes are visible, and the decommissioning of ships is going faster so that extra frigates are not expected for you and there are almost no minesweepers, so your convoy will sink on mines how to drink give ..... You did not answer the main part of the question ... why your kug with bulk carriers where to go?
                      5. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
                        Sapsan136 (Alexander) 30 May 2022 14: 16
                        +1
                        Large frigates are more stable in battle, as they have more ammunition, in addition, a large ship has a smaller pitching range, which means that its crew gets less tired, and crew freshness is very important for combat. This is the attentiveness of a person at a combat post, on which life often depends the entire crew .... Sorry, but the fans of the mosquito fleet have already led to the defeat of the USSR in Spain, for which they were shot ... So ... Why do we need Syria? If you don’t need it, then there is nowhere to go, and if you have somewhere to go, then you need an appropriate fleet ... And Syria is not the only example ... We are trying to be friends with Venezuela, for example ... they also need a fleet ... and not from boats .We are trying to be friends with Brazil, with India ... Here is the answer for you, about the need for a normal fleet, and not a coastal one ...
                      6. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
                        Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 30 May 2022 14: 58
                        -1
                        thanks, the size of the ship affects the roll, but not as important as the aircraft carriers write, the mosquito fleet chatters a lot, but if the ship is longer than the average wave (it is different in different water areas), then a further increase in displacement is not fundamental, cowards are afraid of rolling, an experienced sailor can endure it without reduction combat capability, and even the inexperienced after the first week is already becoming resistant to seasickness, your reasoning about Syria, Brazil, Venezuela and India, ..... I would like to be friends, but experience shows that you have to make friends at your own expense, ... how much they swelled into Cuba Angola Afghanistan people's money, where is the result? and why do you need an ocean fleet to make friends? ..... tired of being a donor of other countries "while we are receptions and balls, we are handsome and sweet, but in poverty and grief all the doors are locked", even fraternal Belarus did not help us in liberation the so-called Ukraine from fascism ... they would have cheaper oil and gas and open a market for their goods .... I love Belarus, I respect Lukashenka, but having friends on other continents is expensive, and simply physically impossible, .... if took up arms, be ready to use it and be prepared that they will use it against you, ..... are you writing about a military confrontation with NATO, US ANZUS? count their destroyers, there are hundreds, but we don’t have a single one, otherwise they already drowned Moscow thinking that they would “project force”, and the enemy with its missile .... and your KUG will receive missiles if it goes to help Venezuela, and will sink, .. and moreover, it will sink from unknown missiles from submarines, even there will be no one to present claims ... do you feel sorry for the sailors and officers? understand a surface ship = an easy target and does not survive in the conditions of missile weapons and confrontation with 100 times superior enemy forces
                      7. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
                        Sapsan136 (Alexander) 30 May 2022 15: 18
                        +1
                        You haven’t been to the sea, since you write this ... Even experienced sailors are swayed, it’s just that landmen endure a bunch harder ... How to be friends depends on the wisdom or stupidity of those who sit in the Kremlin ... The ocean fleet is needed to protect the interests and trade fleet away from their shores, otherwise it will be like in Spain, where the USSR merged in full, because of your mosquito fleet, which had hundreds of useless coastal submarines of the M type, but did not have a single modern heavy cruiser, not to mention battleships ... And Why is Lukoshenko better than Cuba? Grandmothers are pulling with the Russian Federation, but what the Russian Federation needs, because it is very independent with us, not to mention how he called the Russian Federation in Astana an occupier who imposed his wars on Belarus and Kazakhstan ... Moscow is an old trough, so this is not an indicator, and Arly Burke is not a new project, so the new ships of the Russian Federation can and should be better than the Berks ... Missiles from a submarine ?! And you and the submariners talk about such missiles ... The Yankees are generally afraid to launch their Harpoons from submarines, because after their launch, the submarine is a target that has already been spotted ... and Harpoons are not such a difficult target, no more difficult than the domestic X-35, but even a little simpler ... As for Moscow, they drowned it not even with Harpoons, but with the latest anti-ship missiles from Lockheed Martin, and in ideal conditions, when missiles were directed by a US plane and they didn’t shoot at it ... this will not happen in a war .. .
                      8. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
                        Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 30 May 2022 15: 50
                        -2
                        rocking even experienced sailors

                        и

                        get seasick to the point of losing combat capability

                        these are very different things ..... all the arguments about the fact that you can create a KUG and go somewhere with impunity .... from the evil one. and this evil one has a position and a surname = Rozhestvensky, do you want a new Tsushima? .... drown, not from a submarine, but from a destroyer, it is very difficult to find a submarine in the Ocean in conditions when you are drowning, and the submarine is immediately washed off .... do you realize that NATO has a two hundredfold superiority over the Russian Navy?
                      9. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
                        Sapsan136 (Alexander) 30 May 2022 16: 02
                        0
                        I didn’t say “before the loss of combat readiness”, I said, “before the decrease in combat readiness”, these are different things, but this can also become critical .. Well, with the coastal fleet you won’t be able to go anywhere, your transports will be sunk or confiscated, as it was in Spain and you will lose, as then the USSR ... And there is no war without losses, it’s just that these losses can be mutual, or one-way, as in Spain. What about Tsushima? The battle of 20 Russian ships, of which most were obsolete or out of order, against 60 Japanese ones, most of which were new, was predictable ... I already wrote to you about the destroyer, the Burke project is not new and the new ships of the Russian Federation should be better ... A submarine cannot escape, it’s not an airplane ... at maximum speed it has zero stealth, and it’s no more than 30 knots, but you can’t wash off on low-noise moves ... they crawl on them and pray to blow them ... But you don’t grieve for NATO, there are not many people who want to fight, and in the case of writing, many run ahead of the locomotive (see Afghanistan)
                      10. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
                        Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 30 May 2022 17: 35
                        -2
                        Quote: Sapsan136
                        what is tsushima?

                        you are wrong! tsushima is irrefutable evidence of the inferiority of large surface ships, 8 well-armored and armed Russian squadron battleships, of which 4 were the latest, coupled with three coastal defense battleships, against three poorly armored battleships of Japan and one coastal defense battleship, Japanese ships had armor almost at the level Russian cruisers, of which Russia had five of the first rank ..... the huge overwhelming advantage of the Russian fleet was offset by dozens of Japanese destroyers (almost modern boats) .... apparently you are a supporter of the mosquito fleet if you call the Japanese modern and the Russians obsolete?... ..although, of course, the factor of the obvious traitor of Admiral Rozhestvensky who led the ships one by one in a wake column ....
                      11. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
                        Sapsan136 (Alexander) 30 May 2022 17: 50
                        0
                        Let's start with the fact that you stubbornly write nonsense. Where did you see 8, when only 3 can be considered fully combat-ready, and even then with an interference fit. I already wrote to you about the reservation above, it was not there, and taking into account the coal overload, by order of the armchair admiral, the entire main armor belt sank below the water level, even where it was. The battleships of Japan were built in England, and England at that time was the leading shipbuilding power and a frank marriage, what was the undercruiser - the undercruiser Oslyabya did not build and the armor was complete there, from bow to stern, I gave you a diagram above ... Japan had no boats, but in fact mine cruisers, whose armament was 2 76 mm guns, and 4 57 mm guns, plus 2 new 456 mm torpedo tubes with a torpedo range of 2,5 km, against 1 76 mm, 3 47 mm guns and old 381 mm torpedo tubes with a torpedo range of 950 meters for the Russians ... The battle was in the strait and the size of the Japanese ships did not play a big role there ... This is another point on which the armchair admiral is criticized, because if he went by the ocean and Japan could not to use 20 of their small destroyers .. Japan relied on modern ships and won, which is predictable, because it’s ridiculous to expect that obsolete ships, such as Navarin, Dmitry Donskoy, Admiral Nakhimov and the like, will be able to win a battle against new, in fact battlecruisers, to what were, for example, Asama, or Iwate ... Nakhimov could not even shoot at a distance from which the new 40-caliber Japanese guns could hit and could not get close, because he had a much lower speed ... Nakhimov was an excellent ship, but for the time of his buildings, and in battle he participated in an old worn-out ship that had been in service for about 20 years ... and passed without repairing his old and already worn-out cars, half of the World, which also did its job ... I'm not talking about the fact that the Kane vertical guidance system, which was on Russian ships, quickly failed when firing at the maximum distance. Nevertheless, the French company Kane, at that time, could not compete in quality with the British guns of the Armstrong factory, namely, his guns were on Japanese ships
                      12. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
                        Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 30 May 2022 19: 59
                        -2
                        one way or another, but RI had several times more large ships .... and their obsolescence is a generic disadvantage of large ships of small-scale, expensive, long-term construction that are obsolete on the slipway and difficult to modernize .... now everything, too, all our cruisers are as vulnerable as they were moscow is just as outdated and meaningless, they can die from one missile ... the future belongs to submarines, coastal missile systems, coastal aviation, and nk is no more than a frigate for peacetime functions and anti-aircraft defense at bases
                      13. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
                        Sapsan136 (Alexander) 30 May 2022 20: 52
                        0
                        Well, let's say Japan had no less big ships, but no more, because Asama had a displacement of 9710 tons, and Navarin 10206 tons, despite the fact that Asama's weapons allowed him to sink Navarin without approaching the distance from which Navarin's old guns could to get it .. Admiral Nakhimov was inferior in size (8473 tons) and weapons and speed ... Japan also did not build large ships in series, they were just new, and the new ship would not leave the old man a chance ... A submarine without a surface fleet is nothing, it is proved Doenitz's subordinates. The entire Japanese fleet is imprisoned specifically for PLO ..... Submarines, as I already wrote to you, cannot be escort ships for transports ... This means that they will not be able to provide either the Syrian Express or landing operations ... The fleet is needed balanced...
                      14. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
                        Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 30 May 2022 23: 12
                        -2
                        you need to compare Asama with Borodino ...... well, four Yaps against 17 Russians, no matter how old they are ..... once again why prepare an escort for transports and where are you going to drive transports and why, if missiles are easily drowned and transports and your escort, and what does a balanced fleet mean? Is it just a little or a couple of each creature? Or the golden mean? let's not use proverbs, sayings and empty amoeba words such as "balanced fleet", balance happens in accounting, sometimes in logging, sometimes in mechanics ... in the fleet I don't know what is this? the fleet needs to be made according to the tasks and capabilities, and large surface ships do not have tasks and there are no financial opportunities for them
                      15. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
                        Sapsan136 (Alexander) 30 May 2022 23: 31
                        0
                        Against Borodino, with defective vehicles and an actual speed of 12 knots, defective medium-caliber turrets, from which powder gases were not removed for a long time, the Japanese had Mikasa seriously reducing the rate of fire ...... An old ship, this is a target, no more ... I answered you a hundred times, to Syria, for example ... and not me, but the president ... I don’t solve such issues ... And the submarines are not able to complete all the tasks, it was proved by Doenitz’s subordinates ... This is just your point of view, and life has repeatedly proven its fallacy, although you are not ready to admit it.
                      16. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
                        Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 31 May 2022 08: 58
                        -2
                        It’s a no brainer that Syria can only continue if a military confrontation with NATO does not begin, in peacetime the Syrian express is possible without escort or with escort by MRK minesweepers and frigates, the obvious fact is that large surface ships are useless and not needed, Tsushima and the death of Moscow are proof of this
                      17. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
                        Sapsan136 (Alexander) 1 June 2022 16: 17
                        0
                        That old ships were shot at Tsushima, that Moscow was going to be written off a year ago, because the ship was 20 years old ... This only proves the need to build a new fleet, and not use Soviet rarities ... for 20 years without significant repairs and modernization. ..As life has shown, a war can be not only global, but also limited, as in Syria, Spain, Vietnam and Korea, Cuba and Angola ... This is where a naval surface fleet is needed, and nuclear submarines with strategic missiles do not apply...
                      18. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
                        Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 1 June 2022 20: 32
                        0
                        I generally agree, but Moscow was not 20, but 40 years old
                      19. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
                        Sapsan136 (Alexander) 1 June 2022 21: 29
                        0
                        I meant the last repair of Moscow, in 1999, which, with a stretch, can be called a major overhaul with elements of modernization ... I wrote after a daily duty in the service, I got a little worn out ...
                      20. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
                        Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 1 June 2022 23: 19
                        -1
                        I understand, but the Freudian reservation, the cruisers are already so old that they have exceeded all conceivable limits and the modernization of 1164 is completely meaningless (the main weapon is an inclined volcano), and 1144 calibers are too expensive, and Kuzya is generally meaningless in the conditions of decommissioning all the cruisers, so gradually (within 5-7 years) we are moving towards the situation of the only Nakhimov cruiser in the Russian Navy in the next 15 years, and then not a single one ..... all the more they are not really needed, we need to make frigates, (and first of all nuclear submarines, minesweepers, PLO aircraft)
                      21. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
                        Sapsan136 (Alexander) 2 June 2022 09: 30
                        +1
                        I already wrote to you that nuclear submarines without a naval surface fleet will not solve problems, especially since their use in the Black Sea and the Baltic is prohibited by international agreements ...
                      22. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
                        Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 2 June 2022 13: 29
                        -1
                        to solve the problems of nuclear submarines, it is enough for the coastal fleet and coastal aviation within a radius of no more than 1000 km from Petropavlovsk Kamchatsky and Severomorsk. surrounded by NATO on all sides. At the Black Sea Fleet, there are quite enough NPLs and an aircraft carrier called Crimea unsinkable and possibly with ships of the third rank
                      23. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
                        Sapsan136 (Alexander) 2 June 2022 18: 33
                        +1
                        In the Baltic without a fleet, Kaliningrad will be taken away from the Russian Federation ... in fact, it is already under blockade, and it is expensive and difficult to transport by plane, the merchant fleet remains, and it needs an escort of warships, otherwise we will get Odessa on the contrary ... In the Baltic, almost all countries have submarines , so you got excited with such a statement ... If aviation and submarines could solve everything, surface ships would not stick out, including the dead Moscow, near Snake
                      24. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
                        Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 2 June 2022 18: 55
                        -1
                        No one will take Kaliningrad from the Russian Federation in the Baltic, as long as the Russian Federation has the Strategic Missile Forces, RTOs and IPCs can escort dry cargo ships in the Baltic, they can handle it ..... the entire fleet of the first rank in the Black Sea Fleet was sunk, and the second rank one ship is standing in the port, but a snake no one can take it away, although they want to, and by military means .... so you are wrong, we do fine without large ships in the Black Sea Fleet. would cost the Baltic too, in the event of a war and an attempt to "take away" Kaliningrad ..... in a couple of hours we demolish Warsaw Helsinki (of course only if they are admitted to NATO) Berlin and further down the list and provide a land corridor to Kaliningrad, in 2 days .... so the fleet is not needed there either, it is needed only on the oceans
                      25. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
                        Sapsan136 (Alexander) 2 June 2022 19: 05
                        +1
                        RTOs can qualitatively replace missile boats and nothing more, since they have weak air defense and do not have anti-aircraft defense at all, being not universal ships ... They are fighting near the Snake boat, under the cover of aviation and have already suffered losses ... Already lost 2 combat and 2 landing boats ... Yeah ... demolish Ukraine, that you are soaring because you have the Strategic Missile Forces, but there are none of ours in Galicia ...
                      26. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
                        Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 2 June 2022 19: 46
                        -1
                        firstly, a karakurt in a pair of MPKs is a complete replacement for a universal frigate, but it can go by inland waterways and not depend on the will of Turkey and Denmark, and Japan ...... Ukraine is not NATO, we can handle it without the Strategic Missile Forces, and if they couldn’t cope, they would hit in Lviv
                      27. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
                        Sapsan136 (Alexander) 2 June 2022 21: 15
                        +1
                        The Russian Federation does not have a single modern MPK, and those that do have are worn out to the limit and those in condition are no better than those of Moscow, especially since small ships initially have a shorter service life, this time. The air defense on the IPC is the antediluvian single-channel Osa air defense system, it is even less sense than the Shell, which has limitations both in range and in weather. So don't pass off wishful thinking. It’s not a fact that NATO will fight for Poland, for example, and there may also be enough conventional weapons there, that’s what a normal fleet is needed for, not a boat
                      28. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
                        Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 2 June 2022 23: 11
                        -1
                        in Gdynia, the Poles have a battery that destroys your entire unnecessary Baltic fleet in 10 minutes right in the port with almost direct fire .... did not the death of Moscow teach you? but I don’t want so many ships and sailors to die in 10 minutes
                      29. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
                        Sapsan136 (Alexander) 3 June 2022 18: 14
                        0
                        The Polish batteries in Gdynia have been destroyed by the fleet more than once, and not only by the Russian one ... Moscow is an old trough and there is only one conclusion, we need new universal ships, and not the old ears and boats, which Ukraine drowns even with Bayraktars at Serpentine. By the way, almost two dozen Ukrainian boats are also at the bottom, the use of your mosquito fleet is like a goat's milk
  3. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 30 May 2022 17: 43
    -1
    I tried to list the US Navy, the computer cursed too much text ..... and also England and France with Germany and Norway, Japan .. and the Finns ... the Finns have more minesweepers than the Russian Federation ..... many times more minesweepers ... ... count it yourself, and I’ll list our navy, three kr, 6 bpk, 7 frigates are combat-ready ....... what are you going to fight
  4. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 30 May 2022 17: 48
    0
    Quote: Sapsan136
    how it was in spain

    Why did they rush to Spain? Stalin said, building socialism in a single country, and why do we need Spain, Paul the First declared war on Spain, so the Spanish king said that it makes no sense, "our armies will never meet," and why bother Franco to restore order in his country, and destroy people, they themselves would figure it out and there would be no blue division near Leningrad
  5. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
    Sapsan136 (Alexander) 30 May 2022 18: 01
    +1
    Why, why, it’s not for you or me to decide ... neither then nor now ... Spain was not only a Franco country, and the USSR was not the first to get into Spanish events, Italy was the first, then Germany ... In your opinion we have nothing to do in Syria either ... because they also need a navy there, not boats ... to listen to you, we need to feed Lukashenka, who calls the Russian Federation an occupier, and give the whole world to the United States ...
  6. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 30 May 2022 20: 00
    -1
    you are talking about the topic, the question was why!? and not who and where .... and if Germany starts beating its head against the wall, we should?
  7. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 30 May 2022 20: 02
    -1
    God bless Lukashenka!
  8. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
    Sapsan136 (Alexander) 30 May 2022 21: 44
    +1
    I see no reason for such love for a person who lives mainly on the money of the Russian Federation and at the same time has the audacity to call the Russian Federation an occupier. I remember Lenin called such political women with low social responsibility.
  9. Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 30 May 2022 23: 03
    0
    Lukashenko protects his people and takes care of him .... this is what the leader of the country should do
  10. Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
    Sapsan136 (Alexander) 30 May 2022 23: 34
    0
    Perhaps, but to do this at the expense of the Russian Federation, which he has the audacity to call an occupier, to put it mildly, is not nice and admire it ... I would not, this is a vile person, not worthy of respect ... but his people ... I am a citizen The Russian Federation and its people are of little interest to me, because the Russian Federation is not obliged to feed states independent of the Russian Federation, especially those where the Russian Federation is called an occupier ... The occupiers would have treated Belarus differently than the Russian Federation, and if Lukashenka does not understand this, then he is a very narrow-minded person without honor and conscience.
  • Vladimir1155 Offline Vladimir1155
    Vladimir1155 (Vladimir) 16 May 2022 21: 46
    -2
    Quote: Sapsan136
    air defense umbrella for the fleet

    why are you talking about the Black Sea Fleet in the plural? Black Sea Fleet now consists of one combat-ready warship of the 2nd rank (frigate) and what umbrella should it be in your opinion? an umbrella for a group of boats and RTOs? Yes, they can do without it, we will protect them with aircraft and coastal missiles