Can Tu-214 and Il-96 replace American and European airliners for Russia


In this publication, I would like to talk about forecasting and the ability to think ahead, calculating plans for at least a few steps. Scale of many economic problems faced by our country due to the sectoral sanctions of the West, could well have been not so disastrous. This was most clearly manifested in the long-suffering aviation sector of Russia, where every current problem has a first and last name.


This article can be built on references to previous publications on the Reporter, where we described what could happen and, unfortunately, eventually happened. So let's get started.

Without registration


Released September 23, 2021 publication titled "How the UK could collapse the Russian air travel market". In it, we talked about the fact that out of 997 aircraft that make up the fleet of domestic air carriers, 725 are registered in Bermuda and Ireland, where the Anglo-Saxon system of law operates. And here the author of the lines would like to quote himself:

We must be aware that 3/4 of the aircraft flying in the Russian skies are registered in countries that are members of the hostile NATO bloc. These are Ireland and Bermuda, which are British overseas possessions. The agreement with Bermuda was signed back in 1999, and on the other side it was signed by the United Kingdom, which is openly hostile to Russia. And London, if desired, can arrange a lot of serious problems for Moscow.

In particular, the place of registration of an airliner, as a rule, is directly prescribed in the lease agreement, and the lessor company can directly prohibit the aircraft from being registered in Russia, which is usually done. If we decide to really massively transfer all aircraft to domestic jurisdiction, then foreign lessors have the right to withdraw aircraft from our market. Considering their share of the total fleet, the country risks a collapse of air traffic. In fact, this means that London is holding the lion's share of Russian air travel "hostage". Such is the British "soft power".

As a conclusion, we then proposed to take advantage of the difficult market situation in which all aircraft manufacturers found themselves without exception, and force foreign lessors to give permission for the re-registration of Russian aircraft in Russian jurisdiction.

Of course, nothing of the kind was done in a timely manner. Because of the special military operation launched by the Russian Ministry of Defense to demilitarize and denazify Ukraine, continental Europe first deprived domestic air carriers of airworthiness certificates, and soon Bermuda, a UK overseas territory, followed suit. Everything is as we said back in the fall of 2021.

Now the Russian media are victoriously trumpeting that Moscow has found a way out by allowing foreign airliners to be certified in our country. In fact, it could well have been done before, it was just less profitable in Russian jurisdiction, and foreign lessors preferred "aviation offshore". What has changed now?

Never mind. Domestic air carriers are still dependent on the goodwill of foreign lessors. If they agree to a unilateral change in the conditions for changing the “Bermuda residence permit” to the Russian one, and even to making lease payments not in hard currency, but in rubles, then it will cost. And if not? Then the liners of Russian airlines can be arrested abroad by decision of European and American courts. In other words, we are now closed within the airspace of Russia, possibly the CIS and a number of countries in Southeast Asia.

No renovation


And this is the second big problem that the US and the European Union have given us. Boeing and Airbus corporations refused to supply components for repair and manufacture technical maintenance of liners already sold to Russia. For some time it will be possible to hold out due to the so-called "cannibalization" - dismantling for spare parts of aircraft to repair others. But, alas, this cannot continue indefinitely. So, for example, Ural Airlines has already announced that it will be possible to fly without dismantling some liners for spare parts only for 3 months. And now what i can do?

In general, we have already discussed this in article dated March 1, 2022 under the title "Having lost Airbus and Boeing, Russia will have to transfer to Soviet aircraft." Then we came to the conclusion that there were no real alternatives to the resumption of mass production of medium-haul Tu-204/214 and long-range Il-96-400 liners. Naturally, numerous "sofa experts" criticized this idea as untenable, comments can be read at the link. As early as March 7, 2022 in article under the title "The main aircraft-building region supported the transition of Russia to the liners of Soviet projects", we talked about the fact that the head of the Republic of Tatarstan and part-time head of the famous aircraft-building enterprise "Tupolev" Rustam Minnikhanov spoke in support of this idea.

And the day before, on March 16, at the Aviastar plant in Ulyanovsk, Deputy Prime Minister Yury Borisov announced the need to increase the production of Tu-214 and Il-96 liners, which are currently produced in a small series:

Based on the picture that we get, we may use the reserve for the additional production of these aircraft.

So what do we see? The United States and Europe, with the active complicity of our systemic liberals, first put Russia on their liners, and then de facto banned them from using them. Domestic analogues - Tu-214 and Il-96 - no one was going to modernize and develop in our country. Instead, a bet was made on "constructors" from Western components, namely the short-range Superjet-100 and the medium-range MS-21, which cannot be produced under the embargo on the supply of components. Their import substitution may take about 4-5 years, and aircraft are needed here and now. Sabotage? Stupidity? Incompetence? Decide for yourself.

The question is how to get out of this hole into which the country has been driven by domestic liberal accomplices of big Western capital. And here we are gradually approaching the question that the situation could not be so critical if preventive measures had been taken in time.

So, for example, about the feasibility of resuming the production of Tu-204/214 in parallel with the "designer" MS-21, we they said back in December 2021 in an article entitled “Does it make sense to renovate the Tu-204 medium-haul airliner”, and in other articles even earlier. Naturally, no one scratched himself, only in the comments our "couch experts" went through.

About the need to start work on a civilian version of a long-range airliner based on the Il-96-400, we they said even in a publication dated September 3, 2021 entitled “Instead of the “Chinese” CR929, Russia needs its own Il-96-400M.” There we convincingly argued that relying on cooperation with the PRC in the production of this wide-body aircraft with their parallel production in each country with its own IL-96, which can and even needs to be modernized, is outright sabotage. If this work had been started in a timely manner, it might have been possible to start production of the Il-96-400M with the new PD-14 engines even now. Of course, no one did anything. Now here we are, bulging our eyes.

This is about the need for critical thinking and the ability to predict the possible development of events. Our predictions, alas, come true.
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  1. Oleg_5 Offline Oleg_5
    Oleg_5 (Oleg) 17 March 2022 14: 06
    +1
    Can not. Because they are simply SMALL (in pieces).
    And there will not be a lot in any way, no matter what reserves you use.
    1. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
      Marzhecki (Sergei) 17 March 2022 14: 14
      0
      Can not. Because they are simply SMALL (in pieces).

      Therefore, it was about the resumption of production, and not about the use of stocks for conservation. On the timely start of work in this direction. hi
      1. Oleg_5 Offline Oleg_5
        Oleg_5 (Oleg) 17 March 2022 14: 16
        +1
        so it’s not for a year or two .... you need to roll back for decades
      2. Vladimir Orlov Offline Vladimir Orlov
        Vladimir Orlov (Vladimir) 18 March 2022 00: 37
        +2
        They can, they cannot ...

        Obviously, there are no other options except for the Il-96, Tu-204/214/334. That is NOT at all. Since the suppliers of engines for the SSJ-100 (SAM International) also abandoned us, so both SSJ and MC 21 do not fly anywhere with our engines until certification - ONLY IN PLANS for 2024.

        And for a ticket for the IL-96, I am personally ready to pay more (because they don’t fall) - so it’s not about “fuel efficiency” and other nonsense ..

        And if our President shares at least one side of his 6, it will be generally beautiful ...)
    2. wolf46 Offline wolf46
      wolf46 18 March 2022 18: 44
      0
      As for the MS-21, its mass production has yet to be established, taking into account import substitution. In the course of aircraft operation, "childish sores" of the project will appear. And how quickly will they be fixed?
      1. igor.igorev Offline igor.igorev
        igor.igorev (Igor) 24 March 2022 21: 07
        0
        You won’t believe it, but how long an aircraft has been in operation, so much time industry bulletins about improvements come to it. Do you have anything to do with aviation?
  2. faiver Offline faiver
    faiver (Andrei) 17 March 2022 14: 27
    +1
    They can, but not right away.
  3. goncharov.62 Offline goncharov.62
    goncharov.62 (Andrei) 17 March 2022 14: 32
    -3
    Well, like a cherry on the cake - two eternal Russian questions. No, not where to get vodka, but “Who is to blame? And what to do? Otherwise, endless clever words and thoughts are simply not needed if those in power do not hear them.
  4. mark1 Offline mark1
    mark1 17 March 2022 15: 03
    +2
    Domestic air carriers are still dependent on the goodwill of foreign lessors.

    All boards with the former Bermuda residence permit are planned to be used only on domestic lines, on the outer lines there are about 200 "correctly" designed boards.

    already now it was possible to start production of the Il-96-400M with new PD-14 engines.

    PD-14 thrust - 14 tons, PS-90 thrust (standard) - 16 tons, desirable - 17-18 tons (and this is not yet available) so the PD-14 on the IL-96 is fantasy (not scientific), but besides at first, he will not even be enough for the MS-21 program. Those. the development of the Il-5 and Tu-7/96 for the next 204-14 years is somehow connected with the PS-90, but for domestic lines this is normal + proven reliability.
    We have lines for the production of these aircraft, so in the time period of 5-10 years, their production, as an insurance for the development of the MS-21 and Il-962PD-35 line, is relevant for our civil aviation.
    1. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
      Marzhecki (Sergei) 17 March 2022 18: 16
      +1
      We have lines for the production of these aircraft, so in the time period of 5-10 years, their production, as an insurance for the development of the MS-21 and Il-962PD-35 line, is relevant for our civil aviation.

      Yeah, I’ve been saying so much about this already ... The MS-21 has potential, but to launch it into a series, a lot of things still have to be done, because it is necessary to produce and modernize the Tu-214 in parallel. And as a platform for military aircraft (PLO and AWACS), it is good.
    2. wolf46 Offline wolf46
      wolf46 18 March 2022 11: 11
      +1
      PD-14 thrust - 14 tons, PS-90 thrust (standard) - 16 tons, desirable - 17-18 tons (and this is not yet available) .. That is. the development of the Il-5 and Tu-7/96 for the next 204-14 years is somehow connected with the PS-90, but for domestic lines this is normal + proven reliability.

      Thrust PS-90A3 - desired 18 tons. Increasing the production of the latest modifications of the Il-96 and Tu-204 depends primarily on political will, and not on foreign components.
      1. mark1 Offline mark1
        mark1 18 March 2022 17: 30
        0
        That's right, but NOT 18 but UP TO 18 (17,5 per ch.r), which, of course, is not important, just as far as I understand, they are not in a large series and normal production will have to be increased almost simultaneously with PD-14. And about will correctly.
  5. bsk_una Offline bsk_una
    bsk_una (Nick) 17 March 2022 15: 36
    -2
    All the efforts and conversations are not worth a penny: there are enterprises, there are capacities, there is something else (and is there?), But nothing is visible, who will be engaged in aircraft construction, they will again put some kind of Khristenko, who is the author of the collapse of the country's civil aviation , who must be tried and sentenced to hard labor for life, and everything will again go to oblivion. It is not yet seen or heard that where in the convolutions of the government they have already begun to recruit a leader capable of taking development into their own hands, and not a faithful and stupid clerk, or even worse, a manager like a multifunctional Rogozin, from whom you can’t wait for milk like a goat, now jumping on a trampoline.
    1. igor.igorev Offline igor.igorev
      igor.igorev (Igor) 24 March 2022 21: 10
      0
      What you probably don't know is that the hardest thing in any job is finding a GOOD leader. There are plenty of good performers, but there is a very big problem with the leaders.
  6. 123 Offline 123
    123 (123) 17 March 2022 16: 27
    +1
    we talked about the fact that out of 997 aircraft that make up the fleet of domestic air carriers, 725 are registered in Bermuda and Ireland, where the Anglo-Saxon system of law operates.

    The situation is changing rapidly.

    Decree of the Government of the Russian Federation of March 15, 2022 No. 503-r
    Prime Minister Mikhail Mishustin signed a decree to suspend the intergovernmental agreement with Bermuda on the transfer of supervision over registered aircraft, which has been in force since 1999. This will create conditions for the registration of civil aircraft in the state register of the Russian Federation and remove the risks for passenger air transportation.


    http://government.ru/news/44812/

    Forced to disappoint, there will be no disaster. Neither the MS-21 nor the Tu-214 can quickly replace the existing airline fleet. This will take more than a decade. As long as they use what they have. Part of the spare parts to produce themselves, the rest to purchase "workarounds". The situation is not pleasant, but not a disaster. Iran has been under sanctions for many years, but they have not stopped flying. Russia's capabilities are not comparable to those of Iran.
    1. wolf46 Offline wolf46
      wolf46 17 March 2022 18: 53
      +1
      Quote: 123
      The situation is not pleasant, but not a disaster. Iran has been under sanctions for many years, but they have not stopped flying. Russia's capabilities are not comparable to those of Iran.

      According to various international reviews, Iranian airlines (Iran Aseman Airlines, Iran Air and Mahan Air) are considered among the most unsafe in the world. Civil aviation in Russia is critically important for the country.
      1. 123 Offline 123
        123 (123) 17 March 2022 20: 33
        +1
        According to various international reviews, Iranian airlines (Iran Aseman Airlines, Iran Air and Mahan Air) are considered among the most unsafe in the world. Civil aviation in Russia is critically important for the country.

        Civil aviation is critical for many countries, Russia is no exception. There is nothing new in this.
        As for flight safety, Iran really cannot boast of this. For example, one of the fresh "antiretingov".

        Air Algerie (Algeria), Airblue (Pakistan), Blue Wing (Suriname), Iran Aseman Airlines, Pakistan International Airlines. , Scat (Kazakhstan), Sriwijaya Air (Indonesia) and Iran Air.

        https://www.traveller.com.au/worlds-safest-and-least-safe-airlines-for-2022-named-h20vvu

        If you mean that the aircraft will be left without spare parts and this will negatively affect the accident rate, then such a probability exists, but in my opinion it is not great. If you look at the list, it is unlikely that Algeria, Kazakhstan, Indonesia were included in it along with Iran due to the lack of spare parts.
        If you decide that I am saying that everything is fine and nothing happened, then no.
        I really don't see anything good in this. But I don't see any reason to panic either.
        You can endlessly try on the captain-obviousness costume and tell that if we made our own planes and flew them, then there would be no problem. But what's the point?
        In the 90s, the country was covered by a "market". Our planes were not competitive. And the point here is not only in technical characteristics, but also in finance. In the West, it was possible to lease an aircraft, we simply did not have such a company that would buy Tu-204s and lease them. They just didn't have a chance.
        The Superjet and MS-21 were created later; these are quite competitive aircraft corresponding to the world level. It is probably no coincidence that they decided to "hurt" our aviation right now, until they "stand on the wing." I mean that Boeing and Airbus do not need a competitor. And the planes will be completed and they will fly.
        For the Superjet, by the way, the engine is tested and certified. We'll have to wait, of course, but it will be.
        As for the resumption of production of Tu204/214 and so on. Perhaps they really will be produced, but this is a necessary measure. It's like AvtoVAZ start releasing Priora again. Yes, she is also a car and you can ride it, but Vesta is better, Priora is a step back.
        1. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
          Marzhecki (Sergei) 18 March 2022 06: 50
          -1
          In the 90s, the country was covered by a "market". Our planes were not competitive. And the point here is not only in technical characteristics, but also in finance. In the West, it was possible to lease an aircraft, we simply did not have such a company that would buy Tu-204s and lease them. They just didn't have a chance.

          Boltology. Our planes were deliberately made uncompetitive after joining the WTO and with the complicity of the liberals in the government.

          It's like AvtoVAZ start releasing Priora again. Yes, she is also a car and you can ride it, but Vesta is better, Priora is a step back.

          Vesta on imported components.
          1. passing by Offline passing by
            passing by (passing by) 18 March 2022 09: 12
            +1
            Vesta on imported components.

            And what car without imported components? the Germans stopped the factories, because some of the components were made by baboons from the ruins. apparently the German officials are very stupid if they could allow this? but how will intel produce processors without neon baboon gas? where did Trump and Biden look? winked
          2. 123 Offline 123
            123 (123) 18 March 2022 10: 13
            +1
            Boltology. Our planes were deliberately made uncompetitive after joining the WTO and with the complicity of the liberals in the government.

            WTO legend? Before joining the WTO (August 2012), did our aircraft conquer the world market? smile
            V/O Aviaexport was established in 1961. During the existence of export deliveries: Total - 2153 civil aircraft, including IL - 302 units; Tu-310 units; Yak-172 units; An - 1318 pcs. http://www.aviaexport.com/about/history/

            It probably makes no sense to delve into a completely "deep antiquity". Il-86, as far as I remember, was sold to the Chinese in the amount of 3 pieces. Causes? Possibly 4 engines, impossible to fly to Europe due to the noise level. From the point of view of the passenger (had a chance to fly on it), the plane is excellent. But from the point of view of the economy, he lost to competitors, and in my opinion this is objective.
            Tupolev, if you take the late USSR, is the Tu-154. The disadvantages are about the same, increased fuel consumption, noise, crew of 4 people. It was sold abroad to the countries of the socialist camp. Since its collapse, "its own clearing" has disappeared.
            Il-96 and Tu-204 made their first flight in 1989. In subsequent years, they were simply not needed. Decrease in traffic volumes, old Soviet aircraft were imported into the country (re-export). The former brothers switched to Boeings and Airbuses. They also squeezed out Russian planes from the domestic market, they could be stupidly leased. And the public procurement system sank into oblivion in 1996 (6 years before joining the WTO). They just didn't have a chance.
            http://www.ru-90.ru/node/1322

            Vesta on imported components.

            Is this a reason to abandon it and switch to Priora?
            Do you understand that you are proposing to roll back the situation in civil aviation 30 years ago?
            Perhaps the production of the Tu-214 will be increased, but this is a necessary measure and I hope it is temporary, we must look ahead and move in the same direction. To think for the future, to provide not only the domestic market, but also to further squeeze out competitors from the world market. On the Tu-214, this will not work. With him, the chances are zero.
        2. wolf46 Offline wolf46
          wolf46 18 March 2022 09: 00
          +1
          1) Zero - "VladivostokAvia", Tu-204, maintenance of aircraft by the Kazan plant.
          With the takeover by Aeroflot, their operation was reduced to zero.
          2) First flight: Tu-204 - 1989, Tu-214 - 1996, Tu-204SM - 2010 (certificate - 2013).
          The latest modification of this family is not obsolete,
          Moreover, Iran intended to buy them with the localization of production.
          The reason for the failure of the deal was the use of American technology in the PS-90A2 engines.
          1. 123 Offline 123
            123 (123) 18 March 2022 10: 29
            -1
            Thanks for clarifying hi
            This is what the "bomb" is all about. You hit below the belt yes

            The reason for the failure of the deal was the use of American technology in the PS-90A2 engines.

            If you delve into the details, then it turns out to be a domestic engine with wonderful characteristics that is not allowed in, in fact, it turns out to be not so domestic. And those who are still domestic are somewhat worse.

            The PS-90A2 unified engine is designed for Il-96, Tu-204/Tu-214 aircraft.
            Compared to the basic PS-90A, the PS-90A2 engine has a number of advantages, including:
            increase in reliability by 1,5–2 times
            37% reduction in life cycle cost
            reduction of labor intensity of maintenance in operation by 2 times
            the possibility of forcing on thrust up to 18 kgf
            full interchangeability with the PS-90A engine
            preservation of weight and size characteristics
            stability of parameters during operation
            compliance with 2006 ICAO standards for noise (Tu-204, Il-96-300 aircraft) and 2008 ICAO standards for emissions
            permission to fly ETOPS 180 twin-engine aircraft
            localization of damage when the fan blade breaks at the root
            increased fire safety due to the replacement of part of the hydraulic units with pneumatic ones
            the possibility of replacing the working and directing fan blades in operation
            AP-33 certification (complies with US Airworthiness Standards FAR 33)

            Some Russian components, assemblies and parts have been replaced with imported analogues. The PS-90A2 used dual-use technology from a collaboration with Pratt & Whitney, which resulted in restrictions on the export of the engine by the US State Department. In particular, the contract for the supply of new Tu-204SM aircraft to Iran was disrupted. At the beginning of 2014, the intellectual rights to the engine were purchased from an American company, but the Tu-204SM aircraft were never delivered to Iran.

            https://sasablog.ru/vozdushnyj-flot/ps-90-dvigatel.html

            In fairness, they made another modification of the PS-90A3, but we need to get into the details. Such is the import substitution of a completely domestic product. hi
            1. mark1 Offline mark1
              mark1 18 March 2022 10: 46
              +3
              Quote: 123
              In fairness, they made another modification of the PS-90A3, but we need to get into the details.

              Same as A2 but without P&L intellectual property and worse with safety in case of broken blades
          2. 123 Offline 123
            123 (123) 22 March 2022 08: 58
            0
            I assume you wrote to me? If so, sorry for the late reply. hi There are a lot of comments, according to the notification, it is not easy to understand from whom and which ones.

            1) Zero - "VladivostokAvia", Tu-204, maintenance of aircraft by the Kazan plant.
            With the takeover by Aeroflot, their operation was reduced to zero.

            Do you think the Tu-204 had a chance to win in the competition? In no way do I justify the leadership of Aeroflot, but it was more profitable and easier for them to work with "foreign cars".

            2) First flight: Tu-204 - 1989, Tu-214 - 1996, Tu-204SM - 2010 (certificate - 2013).
            The latest modification of this family is not obsolete,
            Moreover, Iran intended to buy them with the localization of production.
            The reason for the failure of the deal was the use of American technology in the PS-90A2 engines.

            Thanks for the clarification and details. hi
            In my opinion, the Tu-214 does not pull on a "breakthrough" in comparison with the Tu-204. Again, 1996, the economic situation in the country did not contribute to the emergence of prerequisites for import substitution. Before the WTO, by the way, there were still 6 years left.
            Tu-204SM is undoubtedly a newer version, but again we run into an engine with American components.

            Propulsion engine PS-90A2, the operating costs of which are much lower than those of the PS-90A. PS-90A2 has an increased overhaul life and an assigned life of the main parts

            https://www.aviastar-sp.ru/products_and_services/aircraft/tupolev_204sm/
            1. The comment was deleted.
        3. igor.igorev Offline igor.igorev
          igor.igorev (Igor) 24 March 2022 21: 15
          0
          Those. you offer to sit on your ass, start smearing snot on your cheeks and howl that everything is gone?
    2. Alexey Davydov (Alexey) 22 March 2022 02: 52
      0
      Part of the spare parts to produce themselves, the rest to purchase "workarounds". The situation is not pleasant, but not a disaster.

      I have to say, about "producing ourselves" - this is an unprofessional utopia. Aircraft parts are complex and individual. Their range is huge. In general, spare parts are a disassembled aircraft. Separately - engines. Separately - flight and navigation complex, separately - avionics, etc.
      Each firm has its own individual glider and all mechanics.
      The production of spare parts is profitable only within the aircraft manufacturing company, with its entire network of contractors and suppliers.
      Small companies can also make money on individual spare parts, but this method is obviously unsuitable if the task is not to make money on a separate spare part, but to replace the manufacturer's support. Unfortunately, only "workarounds" remain.
      Much more important now is another task - the revival of the domestic machine-tool industry, the complete import substitution of its stock of machine tools in key industries.
      It is urgent, this task, based on its urgency, scale and duration of implementation
      1. 123 Offline 123
        123 (123) 22 March 2022 11: 51
        0
        Unfortunately, only "workarounds" remain.

        Not sure. The first step in this direction has been taken. Serve "foreign cars" will be a local company.

        The Aeroflot press service on Thursday, March 17, reported that the Federal Air Transport Agency allowed the aircraft maintenance and repair provider A-Technics (part of the Russian Aeroflot group) to service the aircraft of the American company Boeing and the European company Airbus

        https://newdaynews.ru/economy/753661.html

        The matter will come to repair. Which spare parts will be used will be decided by authorized companies. Naturally, they will not produce engines and so on, but I think they can do some small things on the spot. The usual approach to profitability does not work here, if there are planes without spare parts, then it makes no sense to compare the cost of products with foreign analogues, because they are like on Mars.

        Much more important now is another task - the revival of the domestic machine-tool industry, the complete import substitution of its stock of machine tools in key industries.
        It is urgent, this task, based on its urgency, scale and duration of implementation

        There are plenty of such tasks, and all of them are urgent and large-scale.
        1. Alexey Davydov (Alexey) 22 March 2022 11: 54
          0
          The matter will come to repair. Which spare parts will be used will be decided by authorized companies. Naturally, they will not produce engines and so on, but I think they can do some small things on the spot

          This is not your first Soviet tractor
          1. 123 Offline 123
            123 (123) 22 March 2022 12: 03
            0
            This is not MTS for you in the field.
            As always, they answered frankly formally and superficially, probably these are your leading features

            Did I say that it is easy and there is nothing complicated here?
            Do you think they will not be able to produce some kind of tubes, sensors, tires or more complex components and assemblies? What is the argument in this case?
            What details do you want from me? The range of spare parts and components and analysis of the competence of Russian enterprises in this area?
            1. Alexey Davydov (Alexey) 22 March 2022 13: 14
              +1
              you read they will not be able to produce some kind of tubes, sensors, tires or more complex components and assemblies? What is the argument in this case?

              I am an engineer for aviation instruments and automation - this is my first specialty and job.
              I tell you:
              to release, say, an airplane wing spoiler linkage pivot assembly, you need:
              - technical documentation (drawings) for the assembly part with dimensions, dimensional tolerances, technological instructions
              - technical documentation (drawings) for the parts included in the assembly with dimensions, dimensional tolerances, technological instructions
              - technological documentation for the manufacture and assembly of parts with a description of the technological process (including metal grades, surface treatment, hardening of metal of individual zones of parts
              - flow charts of processes
              - cards for CNC machines
              - drawings of individual equipment for machines for the manufacture of this assembly and its parts
              - a technological complex of machine tools and equipment for the manufacture and processing of parts included in the assembly and the assembly itself (say - 15 machines with individual equipment)
              - and finally, there must be a live factory that has experience in the production and control of this part, which must be tested and certified
              You have in your hands a part taken from an airplane. Where do you get all of the above?
              This is just one of 3 million parts you should be prepared to replace.
              If you produce your aircraft, let's say TU - 204 - you already have all this.
              For all 3 million parts.
              1. 123 Offline 123
                123 (123) 22 March 2022 13: 22
                0
                I am an engineer for aviation instruments and automation - this is my first specialty and job.
                I tell you...
                You have in your hands a part taken from an airplane. Where do you get all of the above?

                Thank you for enlightening me, in general terms, I already imagine this, albeit an amateur.
                So tell me, as an engineer, having a part in hand, the Russian industry is not able to produce an analogue?
                Russian engineers will not be able to train those. documentation, modelling, writing CNC programs and so on?
                If so, how are you going to produce all your own and how do our planes fly in general?
                1. Alexey Davydov (Alexey) 22 March 2022 13: 50
                  +1
                  So tell me, as an engineer, having a part in hand, the Russian industry is not able to produce an analogue?
                  Russian engineers will not be able to train those. documentation, modelling, writing CNC programs and so on?

                  I don't think I can. Because in reality the plane is a single whole. Only its production unites everything into a single goal.
                  Have you ever tried to scratch your right ear with your left foot? With a certain skill, this is quite possible. But it's more convenient with your right hand. Mistakes made are also more useful to admit and correct than to close with new ones.
                  We have our own aircraft ready for release, with all of the above
                  1. 123 Offline 123
                    123 (123) 22 March 2022 15: 20
                    -1
                    I don't think I can. Because in reality the plane is a single whole. Only its production unites everything into a single goal.

                    It feels like we switched places laughing An aeronautical engineer explains to the humanist that the creation of a part with given characteristics is not possible without consolidation in the name of a great goal. smile Forgive my curiosity, but what about the Russian participation in the production of Boeing and Airbus? How do they make parts for engines, glass for the cab?
                    https://rostec.ru/news/3569/

                    Have you ever tried to scratch your right ear with your left foot? With a certain skill, this is quite possible. But it's more convenient with your right hand.

                    To be honest, I have not tried it, I really appreciate the flexibility of the spine. In early childhood, you probably could have tried it, but you are unlikely to be interested in it. The point is rather different, if your right hand is busy, then probably something can be done with the left.
                    It's not about convenience, it's naturally easier to pay and get a part from the manufacturer's factory, but this is not always possible and it's not about convenience.
                    For example, I don’t have a machine tool at home (the neighbors won’t understand), but even I can model and print something on a printer instead of the missing part. Therefore, it is rather strange for me to hear that professional aircraft builders cannot make a specific part with the required characteristics. Of course, you can say that this cannot be compared, but it will not be true. The process is incomparably more complicated, but there is no fundamental difference. The people are professionals, they have the appropriate capabilities and equipment.

                    Mistakes made are also more useful to admit and correct than to close with new ones.
                    We have our own aircraft ready for release, with all of the above

                    Excuse my curiosity, how do you plan to fix them? Is it possible to stop work on the MS-21 and the Superjet and return to the production of the TU-204?
                    And what do you propose to do with foreign cars? Put on a joke, let them gather dust?
                    1. Alexey Davydov (Alexey) 22 March 2022 18: 02
                      +1
                      I have already given a detailed explanation in the comment dated 14-55.
                      In preferred at 15-20 to answer the unexplained.
                      This means that for you temporary success in a dispute is more important than its essence.

                      but something even I can simulate and print on a printer instead of the missing part

                      When a 3D printer is taught precision accuracy, as well as to produce all types of metal hardening up to the industry limit values ​​​​(this is aviation after all), I will agree with you
                      1. 123 Offline 123
                        123 (123) 22 March 2022 18: 39
                        0
                        This means that for you temporary success in a dispute is more important than its essence.

                        What success are you talking about? This means that I opened a comment, replied, then the next one. I don’t read everything beforehand, there are a lot of them and I don’t know who wrote what. so you have to develop a whole strategy and prepare texts laughing
                        And in general, it's not about success. just exchanged opinions and nothing more. especially since we don’t see any fundamental disagreements, they are rather in the details.

                        When a 3D printer is taught precision accuracy, as well as to produce all types of metal hardening up to the industry limit values ​​​​(this is aviation after all), I will agree with you

                        Come on you smile I'm not saying that the aviation industry works on printers. The process itself is certainly much more complicated, but the essence does not change. I'm not an aircraft manufacturer. If precision accuracy is a problem for them, then I'm sad. But this is unlikely.
                      2. Alexey Davydov (Alexey) 22 March 2022 18: 48
                        0
                        If precision accuracy is a problem for them, then I'm sad.

                        The 3D printer works in digital steps (steps), the minimum required for consumer goods. The smaller the steps, the more difficult it is to make a printer, and it is more expensive. The step size is the accuracy. There is a reasonable limit. Further - the rejection of the "steps" in principle. And from a 3D printer.
                        In aviation, there is a competition for the highest accuracy rates, so 3D printers are possible for secondary, non-critical and unloaded parts and blanks.
                      3. 123 Offline 123
                        123 (123) 22 March 2022 19: 02
                        -1
                        The 3D printer works in digital steps (steps), the minimum required for consumer goods. The smaller the steps, the more difficult it is to make a printer, and it is more expensive. The step size is the accuracy. There is a reasonable limit. Further - the rejection of the "steps" in principle. And from a 3D printer.
                        In aviation, there is a competition for the highest accuracy, so 3D printers are possible for secondary, non-critical and unloaded parts - interior trim, seats, etc.

                        Thank you hi I have a general idea on these issues. Differences with machining on the machine understand yes
                2. Alexey Davydov (Alexey) 22 March 2022 18: 25
                  0
                  And what do you propose to do with foreign cars? Put on a joke, let them gather dust?

                  All within common sense.
                  Theme 204, IL-96-300 and themes MS-21 and SSJ-100 - each in its own way on its own track.
                  Foreign cars - on "cannibalism"
                  1. 123 Offline 123
                    123 (123) 22 March 2022 18: 43
                    -1
                    All within common sense.

                    Keep good

                    Theme 204, IL-96-300 and themes MS-21 and SSJ-100 - each in its own way on its own track.

                    And here I agree yes Tu-204 I hope is a temporary solution until the production of MS-21 picks up speed.

                    Foreign cars - on "cannibalism"

                    I see no point in breaking spears here. Here we have a slightly different opinion, but this is not essential. All within common sense.
            2. Alexey Davydov (Alexey) 22 March 2022 14: 16
              0
              I think - the only real way out in relation to Western aircraft is "cannibalism". This should give us time to transfer to ours.
              The next stage is the completion of import substitution of SSJ-100 and MS-20
              1. 123 Offline 123
                123 (123) 22 March 2022 15: 24
                -1
                I think - the only real way out in relation to Western aircraft is "cannibalism". This should give us time to transfer to ours.
                The next stage is the completion of import substitution of SSJ-100 and MS-20

                It is a completely normal approach, this will reduce the severity of the problem.
                But this in no way cancels the purchase of "workarounds" and the production of their parts, if possible. In each case, it is necessary to approach individually.

                The next stage is the completion of import substitution of SSJ-100 and MS-20

                I fully support this. I hope the process will be accelerated, but it will still take some time. I do not exclude that for the transition period they will resume the production of Tu in some volumes, but in my opinion this is a necessary measure and it is better to do without it. If possible, of course.
            3. Alexey Davydov (Alexey) 22 March 2022 14: 55
              +1
              So tell me, as an engineer, having a part in hand, the Russian industry is not able to produce an analogue

              I'll explain in more detail.
              Many parameters of the detail cannot be obtained during its analysis, or the reliability of the interpretation of these data will be insufficient. It is necessary to analyze its operation as part of the aircraft structure - power, thermal and vibration loads, deformations of the system, and the structure in which it is included. These parameters are known only to the developers and testers of the aircraft.
              Further, the requirements for the reliability of a part in the aircraft are determined by its place in the chains of failure probabilities, and this is also considered in the composition of the entire aircraft (only the developers know the probabilities of other parts from the chain).
              From here, the requirements for the quality of manufacture, conditions and methods of bench tests are obtained.
              Bench tests of the part also pass as part of the entire subsystem or system of the aircraft.
              To model all this, you need data and experience that only the developer and manufacturer have and only they have, as well as their test benches.
              In other words, a blind-produced part will have unknown reliability and is therefore unsuitable for aircraft use.
      2. 123 Offline 123
        123 (123) 22 March 2022 12: 29
        -1
        This is not your first Soviet tractor

        So our industry has stepped forward somewhat. Do you want to say that we do not have an aviation industry at all?
    3. Alexey Davydov (Alexey) 22 March 2022 11: 58
      0
      There are a lot of such tasks and they are all urgent and large-scale.

      Therefore, we will sit on the priest exactly as we sat before
      1. 123 Offline 123
        123 (123) 22 March 2022 12: 34
        0
        Therefore, we will sit on the priest exactly as we sat before

        Yes, there are huge problems in the machine tool industry, but they are not only there. There are a lot of them, it is hardly realistic to solve them all at once. Until recently, things were absolutely disgusting in agriculture, something is changing. There are also some developments in industry.
        As for sitting up straight... Prefer to bounce?
        Do you need a boost? Records, work in 3 shifts to an anguish, a five-year plan for 3 years?
        Be that as it may, but the country is developing, maybe not as fast as we would like, but without waving a pick at the construction sites of communism.
    4. Alexey Davydov (Alexey) 22 March 2022 12: 11
      0
      The Aeroflot press service on Thursday, March 17, reported that the Federal Air Transport Agency allowed the aircraft maintenance and repair provider A-Technics (part of the Russian Aeroflot group) to service the aircraft of the American company Boeing and the European company Airbus

      It is convenient for the President when someone, taking it under the visor, says: "we will do it." No need to think about the reality of the task and the honesty of the performer. You can still safely switch to other "emergency and large-scale" tasks
      1. 123 Offline 123
        123 (123) 22 March 2022 12: 36
        -1
        It is convenient for the President when someone, taking it under the visor, says: "we will do it." No need to think about the reality of the task and the honesty of the performer. You can still safely switch to other "emergency and large-scale" tasks

        The essence of the claims is not clear request
    5. Alexey Davydov (Alexey) 22 March 2022 12: 33
      +1
      There are a lot of such tasks and they are all urgent and large-scale.

      No, not completely, and not even a lot.
      All production in the country works on machine tools. Most of the machines are Western.
      The problem with their escort and accessories is the same as with aircraft.
      Many machines will be in the field of termination of communication with the manufacturer's Internet. Others - rather quickly after breakdowns. The West will not support them.
      Replacing the entire park with Chinese ones is buying a collar with a leash for big money, which we will give into the hands of China. Along with the new collar, we will also buy the old rake.
      The machine tool industry needs its own.
      This is the present and future of ALL our production, incl. and weapons
      1. 123 Offline 123
        123 (123) 22 March 2022 12: 49
        0
        No, not completely, and not even a lot.

        I envy your optimism good

        All production in the country works on machine tools. Most of the machines are Western.
        The problem with their escort and accessories is the same as with aircraft.
        Many machines will be in the field of termination of communication with the manufacturer's Internet. Others - rather quickly after breakdowns. The West will not support them.

        I repeat once again, there is a problem in the machine tool industry and it is quite serious.
        I just wanted to remind you that even in Soviet times there were machines not only from the countries of the socialist bloc, including the DPRK, but also from far abroad, like Japan.
        The problems you mentioned will indeed arise. Partially they will be solved both in terms of components and software, but of course not all. There will be problems.

        Replacing the entire park with Chinese ones is buying a collar with a leash for big money, which we will give into the hands of China. Along with the new collar, we will also buy the old rake.
        The machine tool industry needs its own.
        This is the present and future of ALL our production, incl. and weapons

        And who told you that they plan to switch exclusively to Chinese?

        As I understand it, you are worried that the country is not ready for an aggravation? Well, understand that no one would wait until they are fully prepared for everything. By 1941, for some reason, they did not wait until Iosif Visarionovich said that everything was ready. Understand, if everything was ready, the aggravation would have begun much earlier, when the situation in the world was somewhat different. And no one is ever fully prepared for a war (cold or hot).
  • Alexey Davydov (Alexey) 22 March 2022 09: 35
    +1
    By the way, about the realism of the "workarounds".
    Any trifle and a large assembly of MILLIONS on an airplane can fail. Each has its own manufacturer.
    How do you imagine searching "detours" around the world for each individual trinket? This is possible only within the framework of the network that has developed in the hands of the manufacturer. Do you want to create such a network yourself?
    Even replacing INDIVIDUAL components on the SSJ-100 turned out to be a huge and lengthy problem, and you want to FULLY complete several types of aircraft like that?
    The Chinese refused us with spare parts for Western aircraft - they are afraid of losing the support of the manufacturer. Others will also be afraid.
    ONLY the production of domestic aircraft with our OWN SUPPLIER NETWORK and service removes the problem of spare parts
    1. 123 Offline 123
      123 (123) 22 March 2022 12: 28
      -1
      By the way, about the realism of the "workarounds".
      Any trifle and a large assembly of MILLIONS on an airplane can fail. Each has its own manufacturer.
      How do you imagine searching "detours" around the world for each individual trinket? This is possible only within the framework of the network that has developed in the hands of the manufacturer. Do you want to create such a network yourself?

      Boeings and Airbuses are operated not only in Russia. Similar networks exist and some of the components and assemblies are not produced in Europe and the USA. such as China, Turkey and so on. For example, the Boeing 787 (although not the best example, because most of the countries participating in the sanctions are there.)

      And although the planes are assembled in the US, most of their parts come from overseas.

      https://www.businessinsider.com/boeing-787-dreamliner-structure-suppliers-2013-10


      Even replacing INDIVIDUAL components on the SSJ-100 turned out to be a huge and lengthy problem, and you want to FULLY complete several types of aircraft like that?

      Did I mention "FULLY manning several types of aircraft"? I repeat.

      Part of the spare parts to be produced by ourselves, the rest to be purchased by "workarounds"

      Concerning...

      The Chinese refused us with spare parts for Western aircraft - they are afraid of losing the support of the manufacturer. Others will also be afraid.

      That is not true, the journalists gave birth to a "sensation" based on the words of an official who spoke about a particular enterprise that did not supply spare parts. In general, this is an exaggeration.

      Rosaviatsia denied information about China's refusal to supply aircraft parts

      https://ria.ru/20220310/avia-1777495600.html

      ONLY the production of domestic aircraft with our OWN SUPPLIER NETWORK and service removes the problem of spare parts

      I have nothing against it, but it is a difficult task. For example, Boeing writes about 3 million components. At the same time, to arrange the production of all and only after that to start producing an aircraft is not a real task. After all, until the start of production, they will work in the warehouse. It's just financially unrealistic.
      I believe the creation of an aircraft using imported components with subsequent import substitution is the most realistic scenario. Naturally, the pace of import substitution must be increased at an accelerated pace.
  • dub0vitsky Offline dub0vitsky
    dub0vitsky (Victor) 17 March 2022 17: 33
    -1
    The situation in aviation is not the fruits of races .... wa, but the result of state monopoly in the main sectors of the economy. Someone in the office decided, and the subordinates ran to execute. (This is, at best, they ran, but they crawled, or rather). You can't order a private corporation interested in the production of YOUR OWN. Moreover, a well-established and smart antitrust law, when several minds work in parallel, would be unimaginable at all. No, we do everything upside down. We are uniting SUKHOI, MIG, and dozens of other companies into one state corporation, where, of course, the prevailing representatives will finish off those who have weaker ties to those in power and who are doing their jobs quite well. In a few years, Comrade Marzhetsky will write about the failure in military aviation. Someone can prove to me that BOEING is worse than any of ours, just because BOEING is a private company, and ours is state-owned, and, only therefore, more responsible.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Vladimir Orlov Offline Vladimir Orlov
    Vladimir Orlov (Vladimir) 18 March 2022 00: 25
    -3
    Disperse the lobby "SSJ - jetnikov" and just start doing. At least up to 100 pieces / year (if anything, the excess will find a buyer - the same Iran, they still have a lot of Tu-154s there. And they fly, they don’t fall ...)

    List of actions on the surface..:

    1. Determine the "State Leasing Company" as the customer, allocate money - according to the "co-financing" scheme (fed. budget 20-30% + targeted bonds for a loan from the population. You need to borrow from your own people, and not in "Geyrops" and for specific projects , and not just in the "box" - like OFZ)
    2. Pick up personnel from the "Antonovs" and the Tashkent plant, etc. to Ulyanovsk, Kazan, according to the bottom of the barrel ... How many people to recruit, so many to launch (other "bottlenecks" to embroider).
    3. Well, keep all the titanium and "other palladium" for yourself (but not immediately cut contracts with the Yankees, but play for time, but not deliver for reasons of "logistic, well-known, difficulties" ..)

    I made a petition out of naivety:

    https://chng.it/qvV69cGv
  • Sergey Latyshev Offline Sergey Latyshev
    Sergey Latyshev (Serge) 18 March 2022 00: 29
    0
    Relatively recently, they cheered about the "wonderful aircraft" SD100 and MS21, I remember that Sergei was even awarded, and his opponents were ridiculed and fired from aviation.

    And this is how everything quickly changed, although, I remember, Karaulov made programs about this back in the 00s.

    And most importantly - telling, no, no, no about the main and average lobbyists of Boeings, and opponents of TU and IL, with other "ef. Managers"

    But they are still there, on Olympus. They're letting it out....
    1. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
      Marzhecki (Sergei) 18 March 2022 06: 53
      0
      Relatively recently, they cheered about the "wonderful aircraft" SD100 and MS21, I remember that Sergei was even awarded, and his opponents were ridiculed and fired from aviation.

      Actually, even then I defended Russian aircraft. And he honestly wrote about the problems of the Superjet. I quote myself

      Circumstances are now developing in such a way that our long-suffering Superjet has certain chances to become more in demand.

      О the numerous problems of this aircraft have long been known. The main one is that the developers were too carried away with imported components, in fact, turning the liner into a "constructor". Gradually, the task of import substitution is being solved, but the most serious one remains - with power plants. Especially for this project, the French company Safran developed the SaM146 turbofan engine, which is no longer used anywhere except for the Superjet. A joint production with UEC-Saturn was created in Rybinka, where the so-called “hot part” of the engine falls to the share of Europeans.

      However, for some reason, all the problems with the operation of liners of this type arise precisely with French aircraft engines. Constantly fixed marriage and other design flaws. Because of this, Superjet engines have to be sent for overhaul every 2-4 thousand flight hours. At the same time, difficulties often arise with the timely delivery of components from France. As a result, the average flight time for domestic airliners is 3,6 hours, for Brazilian Embraer - 6 hours, for Boeing and Airbas - 10 hours. In earlier times, something like this would be called sabotage and those involved in it would be put to the wall.

      The superjet has already been made, it only needs to be 100% localized. The task has been set, the work is underway.
      MS-21 is a good promising aircraft, but the same rake with imported components. They will replace them, but when exactly, it is not clear. Therefore, I have been writing for a long time that the Tu-214 should be started to be produced now and in parallel with the work on the MS-21.
      1. Sergey Latyshev Offline Sergey Latyshev
        Sergey Latyshev (Serge) 18 March 2022 07: 36
        0
        1) yes, I confirm.
        2) yes, I confirm
        3) They will replace it, they will produce it)))) They will parallel it)))
      2. wamp Offline wamp
        wamp 18 March 2022 14: 28
        0
        Quote: Marzhetsky
        even then I defended Russian planes. And he honestly wrote about the problems of the Superjet.

        You have multiplied and continue to multiply outdated information (the French have already finished the engine for a couple of years) and nonsense (“you got carried away with foreign components” - yes, they are, corny, cheaper and better due to mass production). There was simply no other option, with the collapse of the aviation industry. With an increase in the production of domestic aircraft, the validity of the benefits becomes serial release of their components.

        Quote: Marzhetsky
        MS-21 is a good promising aircraft, but the same rake with imported components.

        If you have your own equipment and components for the Superjet, then they will also be for the MS-21 - they are unified.
        1. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
          Marzhecki (Sergei) 20 March 2022 11: 52
          -1
          You are the only one writing nonsense here.
          1. wamp Offline wamp
            wamp 20 March 2022 13: 28
            -1
            You are also helpless!
            1. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
              Marzhecki (Sergei) 24 March 2022 08: 30
              -1
              There is simply nothing to discuss with you.
  • Sapsan136 Offline Sapsan136
    Sapsan136 (Alexander) 18 March 2022 11: 11
    0
    In any case, the production of the Tu-204 needs to be increased, both for passenger and transport transportation, and for the Russian Air Force. The Tu-204 can make a good torpedo bomber, no worse than the American R-8 Poseidon. The IL-38 is a very old car and has not been produced for a long time, and on the basis of the Tu-204 it would be possible to make a replacement for them, modeled on the American Poseidon
    1. faiver Offline faiver
      faiver (Andrei) 19 March 2022 04: 24
      +3
      I agree, I am absolutely not worried about the conquest of the world market by Russian aircraft, I am worried about air traffic within the country - I myself live in Yakutia, respectively, my shirt is closer to my body ...
  • Sergey Latyshev Offline Sergey Latyshev
    Sergey Latyshev (Serge) 19 March 2022 08: 40
    0
    Boris Yulin
    "Air sanctions. Who is to blame and where is the way out? Will Russia be able to provide itself with aircraft?"
    a little more than how it was clearly not rain, not an echo, and not a Latin "helped to switch" to Western aircraft and components.

    Naturally, also almost without names, no one wants to repeat the history of the Nameless
  • Alexander Klevtsov (alexander klevtsov) 19 March 2022 12: 11
    0
    It was necessary to tear the industry apart, hello Arkasha ....
  • wolf46 Offline wolf46
    wolf46 19 March 2022 13: 25
    0
    According to the Flightradar24 review, there are at least 34 (!) long-haul aircraft in Russian ownership: 8 A330s (all Aeroflot), 5 Boeing 747s (leasing), 21 Boeing 777s (10 Aeroflot, 11 leasing). And this is many times less than the total number.
  • igor.igorev Offline igor.igorev
    igor.igorev (Igor) 24 March 2022 21: 04
    0
    I don't see anything wrong at all. USA, Canada, Australia, all of Europe is closed to us. The number of flights has decreased probably dozens of times. Spare parts can always be bought in other countries, there is nothing complicated about it. And there is nothing terrible for the state. Close-minded private traders who have leased European and American aircraft will suffer losses. They will fly around Russia as long as there is a resource. And what will happen then, these are the problems of aircraft owners. At the same time, the salaries will go sky-high for the flight crew. Everything God does is for the best.
  • Mark Offline Mark
    Mark (Mark) 28 March 2022 20: 15
    0
    For 30 years they have only destroyed their industry. instead of upgrading. Plants and factories were destroyed. The current innovations put into operation are minuscule from the past. They even forgot how to make lathes themselves. Bearings and those lack.