Russia has everything for the successful construction of ships of the 1st rank

December 11 2021 87

Recent article about the possibility of building a promising destroyer in Russia on the basis of the upgraded BOD 1155.1 project aroused a storm of emotions among the readers. For too long we were artificially accustomed to the idea that we cannot build ships of this class, badly needed by the Russian Navy, that many were morally unprepared to debunk this propaganda myth and met the information with denial and aggression. In view of the critical importance of this topic for the defense capability of our country, I would like to add more clarity to it and dot the i's.

So where have we come to? There is a Soviet project of a large anti-submarine ship of project 1155.1, which in fact is a real destroyer. BODs were built at the Yantar plant in the Kaliningrad region, and 8 units have survived to this day. Several years ago, the RF Ministry of Defense began the planned modernization of Project 1155 to the level of "frigate" and "destroyer". The only problem is their venerable age, 40 years on average, which makes it possible to extend the life of the former "anti-submarine" by 10-15 years, but it is infinitely impossible to do this. That is why we raised the issue of resuming the production of these ships on a modernized project from scratch.

And then it began. It turns out that we again have no one and nowhere to build destroyers, again there are no power plants, or rather, there are, but for some reason there will not be enough of them for all ships, the projected ship cannot be increased in size, etc. Let's now talk about these bottlenecks.

No power plant?

Actually, there is already. A series of promising Russian frigates of Project 22350 uses the CODAG (COmbined Diesel And Gas turbine) scheme. It is a combined diesel-gas turbine power plant, in which a diesel engine and a gas turbine work together on one propeller shaft, used on military or specialized ships. The domestic diesel-gas turbine unit (DGTA) М55Р consists of several elements: a diesel engine 10D49 with a capacity of 3,7 MW, a gearbox and a gas turbine engine М90ФР.

Why so many things? For the sake of greater efficiency: warships usually run on diesel engines, and if afterburner is necessary, they switch the gas turbine branch of the power plant with a capacity of 20 MW. Ukraine left us in 2014 just with a gas turbine engine and a gearbox, and domestic manufacturers had to replace them with imports at a rapid pace.

Import substituted. The production of its own gas turbine engine M90FR, as well as a gearbox has been launched. The first M55R power plants began to be supplied to Project 22350 frigates. And this is indeed a great success. But how can he help us with promising destroyers? Will the M55R have enough power for a ship with one and a half times the tonnage?

Indeed, the project 22350 frigate has a standard displacement of 4550 tons, a total displacement of 5400, for a project 1155.1 BOD it is 7740 and 8320 tons, respectively. At the same time, we have already dreamed of bringing the full displacement of a promising destroyer to as much as 9000 tons in order to cram a maximum of weapons into it. Will the power plant pull such a colossus from the frigate, which is more than one and a half times smaller? Perhaps, but only with this arrangement.

There is also another scheme called COGAG (COmbined Gas turbine And Gas turbine - a combination of a gas turbine and a gas turbine). It is a power plant in which two gas turbines work together on a single propeller shaft. This arrangement allows the gearbox to operate either of the two turbines alone or both together. The use of this scheme on a promising destroyer will make it possible to use 4 M90FR gas turbine engines with a capacity of 27 hp at once. With. each, which will give a total power plant capacity of 500 liters. With. For comparison, the American "Arleigh Burke" has 110, thanks to 000 LM100 from General Electric of 000 liters. With. each one. It will not be so economical, but the maximum speed of the Russian destroyer can rise to 4 knots!

By the way, the UEC is talking about increasing the capacity of the M90FR from 20 MW to 25. Accordingly, the performance characteristics of the ship's power plant will also grow.

What conclusion can be drawn from this? Such that engines for a ship of the size of a destroyer, or even larger, we, in principle, have. The argument that there won't be enough turbines for everyone is generally very strange. The larger the batch, the lower the costs and the higher the efficiency of production. The basics economics... UEC has been contracted for M55R for six frigates until 2025. That's all for now. The destroyers will need M90FR gas turbine engines, so it will be profitable for the corporation to expand their production.

Will it be too little?

Now with regard to the fact that the problem is allegedly an increase in the total displacement of the BOD to 9000 tons, since this implies a change in the project. To this I would like to answer that the project will have to be reworked anyway, but the practical experience of modernizing the Marshal Shaposhnikov and Admiral Vinogradov BODs can seriously help in this. The redesign itself can be broken down into two stages.

So, on the first one it would be possible to lay down at the shipyard a couple of ships in the dimension BOD 1155.1, which is provided for by the existing project. Subsequent ones can be built according to a project with a greater degree of processing; there are at least several more years in stock. By the way, the difference between 8320 and 9000 full displacement is not so critical to grab your head and pull your hair out because of technical the impossibility of the task. The same Americans are constantly modernizing and improving their "Arleigh Burke", gradually adding tonnage.

Probably, this is our path too.

Nowhere to build?

There is where. Where the BODs of projects 1155 and 1155.1 were built, at the Yantar plant in the Kaliningrad region. It cannot be said that the enterprise is idle, however, such large orders as the construction of large landing ships "Ivan Gren" and "Petr Morgunov" are already behind. If you know how to arrange tasks according to the degree of importance and priority, then the construction of new destroyers for the Russian Navy will undoubtedly be a priority.

So everything is in our hands. Frigates of projects 22350 and 22350M can be built in parallel with new destroyers based on project 1155.1M and in a more reasonable time solve the problem with an acute shortage of 1st rank ships in the Russian Navy.

Sergey Marzhetsky
Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation

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wolf46

+2

11 December 2021 17: 19

1) BOD 1155.1 "Admiral Chabanenko" has been under repair for 8 (!) Years, in anticipation of which "Admiral Vinogradov" has been at the pier since March this year. In other words, the organization of military ship repair is limping on both legs.
2) From an interview with Ilya Samarin (CEO of Yantar) dated 29.03.2021/XNUMX/XNUMX Korabel.ru:

- Are you planning to increase ship repair orders at Yantar?
- No, everyone should mind their own business. There are enough USC enterprises in each region.
- Do the plant's capacities allow, if necessary, to launch the construction of a series of ships for the Russian Navy?
- During a recent visit to the plant of Aleksey Krivoruchko, we, among others, raised the question of the possibility of additional loading of Yantar. Today we have a load for one or two years, and by the end of 2022, slipways are vacated. In principle, we can continue to build a series of ships or carry out individual orders. Therefore, we offered ourselves to the Ministry of Defense as an executor of a contract for two frigates, or it could be corvettes. But it would be much more effective if it were a series of amphibious assault ships.

The management of the plant does not even think about building destroyers, especially the only plant in the country that builds landing ships.
In a couple of years, PSZ is to build a new floating dock (for its own needs) and hand over both BDK 11711M to the fleet. Time will tell what exactly will be laid down for the Navy.
Marzhecki

0

11 December 2021 19: 15

Quote: wolf46
The management of the plant does not even think about building destroyers, especially the only plant in the country that builds landing ships.

First, it would be strange if they themselves thought about it. The Ministry of Defense should set such tasks.
Secondly, in the FIG country of the BDK, the last century, when are the UDCs being built?
Thirdly, Yantar only confirmed that the slipways are free.

Today we have a load for one or two years, and by the end of 2022, slipways are vacated. In principle, we can continue to build a series of ships or carry out individual orders. Therefore, we offered ourselves to the Ministry of Defense as an executor of a contract for two frigates, or it could be corvettes.
1. gunnerminer
  
  -1
  
  11 December 2021 20: 12
  
  Secondly, in the FIG country of the BDK, the last century, when are the UDCs being built?
  
  These are not interchangeable ships. The UDC cannot approach the water's edge like the BDK. They are for different landing conditions.
  
  Thirdly, Yantar only confirmed that the slipways are free.
  
  To start building a ship, not only a free slipway is required.
gunnerminer

-2

11 December 2021 19: 25

There is a Soviet project of a large anti-submarine ship of project 1155.1, which, in fact, is a real destroyer.

A big stretch of a bird on a volumetric round product. Like a frog, do not blow it through a straw, it will not become a crocodile. In terms of armament, it will be extremely weak. BPK Shaposhnikov left the factory, without BUGAS. The Ka-27PL helicopter is morally old. And its maneuvers are greatly limited by meteorological conditions. There is no training vessel for training helicopter crews in the Russian Navy. Only basic literary classes are conducted, strictly within the combat course.

So where are we going?

It's not good to juggle. It's you, dear author, who came.

The only problem is their venerable age,

This is not the only problem.

It will not be so economical, but the maximum speed of the Russian destroyer can rise to 32 knots!

A dubious statement. The maximum speed of the ship will only develop during various tests, in a combat situation for a short time. Most of the main event will follow the economic speed. And one should take into account the complete lack of the possibility of replenishing fuel and lubricants in foreign ports and bases. Russia does not plan to mortgage, and the existing tankers are over 40 years old and will soon become unsafe for the crews.

What conclusion can be drawn from this? Such that engines for a ship of the size of a destroyer, or even larger, we, in principle, have.

What does it mean in "principle"? Was it lying around in the warehouses of TEC?

The larger the batch, the lower the costs and the higher the efficiency of production. The basics of the economy.

The news about the frigate Admiral Golovko with the Russian gas turbine and the reducer has died down. The frigate was not at the main event. There are no statistics on the Russian gas turbine and the reducer.
1. Marzhecki
  
  +1
  
  12 December 2021 07: 45
  
  Sorry, but you are doing distortion and criticism here.
  There is such a rule: you criticize, offer. I voiced a very real project, with real engines and real vacant production areas.
  You're just reveling in your negativity. I myself am critical of what is happening, but with people like you, I am not on my way.
  1. gunnerminer
    
    -2
    
    12 December 2021 22: 20
    
    There is such a rule: you criticize, offer.
    
    Quite suggested. I started with proposals on the "Army" project of the Nashi movement. I ended up with proposals to the Military-Industrial Commission. I received, at best, formal replies, which Captain of the 3rd rank of the reserve Maxim Klimov brought to the VO. When, after one of the next proposals, there was a warning to send materials to the territorial body of the FSB, as a basis for a preventive conversation on the topic "where the fireballs come from," this kind of activity ceased.
  2. Astronaut
    
    -1
    
    15 December 2021 21: 49
    
    Guner is an old troll, he was already on bmpd.livejournal. He was banned there, it seems, he climbed over here. Don't be fooled by him.
2. Marzhecki
  
  -1
  
  12 December 2021 08: 08
  
  A big stretch of a bird on a volumetric round product. Like a frog, do not blow it through a straw, it will not become a crocodile. In terms of armament, it will be extremely weak. BPK Shaposhnikov left the factory, without BUGAS. The Ka-27PL helicopter is morally old. And its maneuvers are greatly limited by meteorological conditions. There is no training vessel for training helicopter crews in the Russian Navy. Only basic literary classes are conducted, strictly within the combat course.
  
  Shaposhnikov's modernization is defective. Who says that a new ship should be laid from scratch on an unsuccessful modernization project?
  A destroyer built from scratch will last for another 50 years, an obsolete helicopter can be replaced with a Lamprey if it ever appears.
  Your whining is extremely exhausting.
  1. gunnerminer
    
    -3
    
    12 December 2021 22: 21
    
    Your nagging is extremely exhausting
    
    Shakers and uryakalka are even more tiresome and will lead to a tragic denouement.
    
    A destroyer built from scratch will last another 50 years
    
    Let at least the old ones try to repair them within a time frame acceptable to the customer.
  2. Cat
    
    0
    
    17 March 2022 20: 55
    
    Well, it just got better anyway! And there is no ideal and cannot be. We live in a world of compromises. Alas ... This is what I mean when I look at my wife ...
gunnerminer

-2

11 December 2021 19: 41

Subsequent ones can be built according to a project with a greater degree of processing; there are at least several more years in stock.

There is an insignificant margin according to our calculations. NATO and Japan have their own calculations. In these calculations, the author did not include the support forces for the ships, which are very old, frail, some of them do not exist at all.

The same Americans are constantly modernizing and improving their "Arleigh Burke", gradually adding tonnage. Probably, this is our way.

Some kind of straightforward comparison. The United States simply has gigantic shipbuilding and ship repair capabilities, in terms of personnel, equipment, technological capabilities, and financial capabilities.

There is where. Where the BODs of projects 1155 and 1155.1 were built, at the Yantar plant in the Kaliningrad region. It cannot be said that the enterprise is idle, however, such large orders as the construction of large landing ships "Ivan Gren" and "Petr Morgunov" are already behind. If you know how to arrange tasks according to the degree of importance and priority, then the construction of new destroyers for the Russian Navy will undoubtedly be a priority.

The modest capabilities of the unmodernized Amber, which is experiencing personnel problems, will make it possible to proceed with the construction of a destroyer according to an unapproved project (a chicken in a nest, an egg on a star), only if the construction of landing ships is simplified (stopped). 40 years. BDK (there was a KFOR, but so that the officers did not scatter, they were promoted to rank 2) Saratov and at all in 1966.

So everything is in our hands. Frigates of projects 22350 and 22350M can be built in parallel with new destroyers based on project 1155.1M and in a more reasonable time solve the problem with an acute shortage of 1st rank ships in the Russian Navy.

On the water it is written with a pitchfork. In the USC and the Navy's Main Command there is a heated discussion of the topic of continuing the construction of frigates 22350. The bookmark of the frigate of project 22350M is removed into the fog. It is especially difficult with the interpretation of the concept of "reasonable time"
The floating dock at KSF, instead of the sunken PD-50, is not planned for purchase. Construction of a dry dock at SRZ-35 is not going at a frantic pace. KTOF has an old rusty "colleague"
PD-50. Japanese production, also requiring replacement.
wolf46

+3

11 December 2021 20: 03

Even if a frigate / destroyer class ship is laid on Yantar next year, the M2026FR engines will not be delivered to the plant before 90. Otherwise, the fate of the frigate 11356 "Admiral Kornilov" will repeat itself. Today (minus a couple of new large landing ships) in the amphibious forces of the Navy there are 19 ships from the times of the USSR, incl. only three of them are 1990-91. Soviet-built, and at the Black Sea Fleet - two 1966, 68 years.
1. gunnerminer
  
  -1
  
  11 December 2021 21: 13
  
  The resource of the Soviet large landing ships is severely beaten by time and the Syrian express. The sailing qualities of these ships are supported by the titanic efforts of the crews. Chartering of foreign ships was not possible due to threats from the State Department, and there are almost no Russian merchant ships.
2. Marzhecki
  
  -1
  
  12 December 2021 07: 48
  
  It only says that the destroyers must be laid down. It will take a long time to build, but they will. Just by the time the engines go for them, the hulls will actually be ready.
  But these will be new destroyers that will last another 50 years, in contrast to the BODs, which have almost exhausted their resource.
  1. Yuri V.A
    
    0
    
    12 December 2021 12: 33
    
    To begin with, I would like to clarify what a promising Russian destroyer should look like?
    1. Marzhecki
      
      +1
      
      12 December 2021 12: 40
      
      2 articles are devoted to this. Want to read it.
      1. Yuri V.A
        
        -1
        
        12 December 2021 13: 17
        
        Still as I want, can I have a link?
        
        Marzhecki
        
        0
        
        12 December 2021 13: 55
        
        this and the previous link in the first paragraph.
        
        Yuri V.A
        
        0
        
        12 December 2021 14: 37
        
        These articles are devoted to the reanimation of ships of projects half a century ago. It turns out that we do not have not only the possibilities of construction, but even the vision of promising ships of the 1st rank.
        
        Marzhecki
        
        0
        
        12 December 2021 14: 52
        
        There is a Leader, but we cannot build it for 100 billion.
        The resumption of production of BODs in a modernized version with a new engine and modern weapons is a completely realistic option. There is everything you need, even your own shipyard is free.
        From the ships half a century ago, there will be only blueprints, which will have to be modified anyway, to make the superstructure and the hull more "stealth". The filling will be modern. An example of what the result might look like is the modernization project of Admiral Vinogradov. But it is in the old building, the resource is not infinite, and if you build it from scratch, the building will last another 50 years with the possibility of pumping and further modernization.
        In the context of the systemic crisis of the domestic shipbuilding industry, this is a completely adequate solution to the problem with destroyer-class ships. IMHO.
        You just need to adequately assess the country's capabilities and implement feasible projects that will be of real use.
        
        Yuri V.A
        
        +1
        
        12 December 2021 15: 44
        
        The proposed modernization of Vinogradov is a half-measure even for the 90s. We have practically no modern filling. No engines, no long-range air defense systems, no universal artillery, no helicopters, no flying and diving drones. Incomprehensible Zircons fly 500 km. What's the farthest zone with that? The fighting will spill over into the surface of Karabakh.
        
        Marzhecki
        
        -1
        
        12 December 2021 15: 51
        
        Engines now have something to assemble. Helicopters can be replaced with old ones, drones can be supplied, weapons can be replaced as part of modernization. It would be on what building.
        BOD are old. You can build new ones that will last another half a century. On Yantar.
        About the DMZ. We all whine that there is nothing to cover the helicopter carriers and hypothetical aircraft carriers, such as there are no destroyers and frigates. Let's build on two shipyards in parallel. And then someday we will think about aircraft carriers in 10 years.
        
        gunnerminer
        
        -2
        
        12 December 2021 22: 30
        
        Engines now have something to assemble
        
        Mouse fuss with the UDC and the frigate Admiral Golovko confirms this statement in an average way.
        
        And then someday we will think about aircraft carriers in 10 years.
        
        A light fighter instead of a MiG-29SMT, an electronic warfare aircraft, an AWACS and U aircraft, an ASW aircraft for aircraft carriers are not even planning. If an aircraft carrier is planned in 10 years, then these aircraft should have begun to be designed about 5 years ago.
        
        Marzhecki
        
        -1
        
        12 December 2021 15: 43
        
        The United States has been building its Arleigh Burkeys since 1988 and for some reason is in no hurry to refuse, on the contrary, they are stamping in batches. They only improve and gradually add displacement from generation to generation.
        The question is, why a modern Russian destroyer cannot be built on the basis of the drawings of the Soviet BOD project 1155.1?
        
        Yuri V.A
        
        -2
        
        12 December 2021 15: 51
        
        Burkes exhausted themselves in the last century, if the Americans had not sagged with the Zamwalt and slept through China, no one would have built them.
        
        Marzhecki
        
        0
        
        12 December 2021 15: 54
        
        The chatter is all empty.
        Berks perform their assigned tasks. The most massive destroyer in the world. Zamwalt showed that no expensive wunderwaffe is needed, hemorrhoids are one with him.
        We need just simple and reliable workhorses with adequate capabilities and for adequate money.
        We do not need any super destroyers worth 100 billion. We need the same simple and understandable ships that we can actually build and then service.
        
        Yuri V.A
        
        +1
        
        12 December 2021 16: 05
        
        Why do we need stupid understandable ships? Do you also still use an understandable tube TV at home? Only in war this will not work, the backward will be smeared and not noticed.
        
        Marzhecki
        
        0
        
        12 December 2021 18: 53
        
        No matter what we do, we will not reach parity with the US Navy. No piece super destroyers will help. Therefore, we must focus on realistic tasks.
        
        Yuri V.A
        
        0
        
        13 December 2021 02: 11
        
        Single super destroyers (although what do you mean by that?) Do not help anyone. Your realism lies in the expensive tuning of ships from completely defenseless to an easy target.
        
        Marzhecki
        
        0
        
        13 December 2021 06: 25
        
        Tuning? I voiced a proposal to build a modern ship with modern weapons and a power plant from scratch according to a modernized project.
        And you breed demagoguery.
        
        Yuri V.A
        
        0
        
        13 December 2021 08: 01
        
        Be rude, lad ... Demagoguery, just entirely with you - no specifics, we will complete the campaign, update, improve.
        The main thing is for what purposes the ship, just to indicate its presence on the distant shores? The modern power plant is an electric motor, is it there? A powerful radar, and not a mediocre Polyment is there? Is there a naval version of the S-500/550? Airborne and external sources of detection and target designation at a distance of 1000 km are present? And so on, and so on ... Even the project 1155's hull is unsuccessful - because of the Polynomial, the entire nose was flooded.
        
        Marzhecki
        
        -1
        
        13 December 2021 08: 38
        
        Be rude, lad ... Demagoguery, just entirely with you - no specifics, we will complete the campaign, update, improve.
        
        What do you even allow yourself?
        Who do you think you are? A member of the military-industrial complex? I'm not here on your report.
        
        Even the project 1155's hull was unsuccessful - because of the Polynom, the entire nose was flooded.
        
        Speech about 1155.1 actually
        
        The main thing is for what purposes the ship, just to indicate its presence on the distant shores?
        
        And for what purpose do you need a new generation super destroyer?
        
        A powerful radar, and not a mediocre Polyment available? Is there a naval version of the S-500/550? Airborne and external sources of detection and target designation at a distance of 1000 km are present? And so on, and so on ...
        
        The ship in the new building will serve for 50 years. Nothing prevents modernization along the way.
        
        That's it, I finished the conversation with you.
        
        The comment was deleted.
3. Marzhecki
  
  0
  
  12 December 2021 08: 51
  
  Even if a frigate / destroyer class ship is laid on Yantar next year, the M2026FR engines will not be delivered to the plant before 90. Otherwise, the fate of the frigate 11356 "Admiral Kornilov" will repeat.
  
  Again, a lot depends on planning. If in tasks to provide 6 frigates with M55P installations, this is one thing. Ships are built slowly, there is nowhere to rush, the engine consists of several elements produced at different enterprises.
  If, in parallel with the frigates, a series of 8-10 destroyers is laid, the power plant of each will be formed from 4 M90FR, then the manufacturer will be able to increase the scale of production at his enterprise. It is beneficial for both him and the customer.
gunnerminer

-1

11 December 2021 21: 43

It is not bad to recall an interview on this topic with Anatoly Shlemov, head of the Department of Defense of the United Shipbuilding Corporation, during the DEFEXPO-2014 exhibition for the Voice of Russia held in India. And to see what happened after 7 years. Shlemov did not say a word about RTOs, for example. The problems are the same. With old auxiliary systems and mechanisms, you cannot start a series. But there are no new ones. Science fails, it does not go further than unreliable samples. Import substitution is quietly deflated. The ship is built for weapons, not weapons for the ship. Hulls can be riveted at least a dime a dozen, but in the absence of modern weapons, and components for its maintenance, guidance, the ship will remain just a rusting box. It is not enough to create the best laboratory prototype of a radio electronic device. It is necessary to establish its serial production within an acceptable time frame, at an affordable price. UDC, a destroyer without sea and without modern coastal infrastructure, without
the most modern weapons and armaments, useless to the fleet and the country.
At least 50 years, and huge capital investments are needed to rebuild the fleet. But will NATO and Japan give such an opportunity! The conservative inert structure of the fleet is rapidly degrading. But it is developing just as slowly. An example of the PLA Navy.
About the ranks of the project 22350 is a moot point. Since the rank of a ship is determined by several factors, one of the main ones is displacement. Ships of the 1st rank must have a displacement close to 10 tons or more. And given that in the classification of ships, the growth of this very displacement has recently begun, then the fact speaks of the opposite. Even the 000M (which has not yet been built) is not, in fact, a rank 22350 ship. Rank 1 is the highest rank of ships.
We need auxiliary supply vessels. We need naval base and PMTO abroad. We need personnel. The training base of the former naval schools - it was a shame to look at those ruins. Especially in a deplorable state are the ruins of the former schools named after Frunze and the name of the Lenin Komsomol. Like after shelling. This is how the Kronstadt forts look like. Only the daughter of the Russian Ministry of Defense is engaged in forts. no one.
1. WASD
  
  0
  
  12 December 2021 02: 00
  
  I am trying to find a person who is really and objectively familiar with the situation, preferably directly “from there”, from among the managers of the Navy. Is it really true that now we can only scoff at nuclear submarines? And that is not fast. 8 years have passed since the laying of the same "Admiral Golovko" to its launch. And soon it will be 2 years, as he is on the water, and he is only being prepared for the MOORING (!!!) tests. I, in that case, am afraid to imagine how things will go with the last two Eagles 1144 ...
  Answer honestly, are you a "bastard", or is it really that lousy in the industry?
  If so then...
  This is some kind of ... shame.
  1. gunnerminer
    
    -2
    
    12 December 2021 22: 12
    
    I am trying to find a person who is really and objectively familiar with the situation, preferably directly "from there", from the managers of the Navy
    
    You are wasting your time. Such an informed person will not outline the whole picture, so as not to undermine your spiritual bonds.
    
    8 years have passed since the laying of the same "Admiral Golovko" to its launch.
    
    More than 141 years have passed since the death of the K-20 crew, but a modern ship with GVK-450 has not appeared on the KSF.
    
    Answer honestly, are you a "bastard", or is it really that lousy in the industry?
    
    I am not ready to certify myself as an "all-pervading". I smooth the corners as much as possible by publicly assessing the situation in the Navy, in the Armed Forces. The conflict with NATO in the Donbass, Russian military personnel are not approaching at the peak of their power. Timokhina. They write, smoothing out sharp corners. I am in rare correspondence with both of them. I rarely provide them with informational assistance.
S WITH

0

12 December 2021 00: 01

in Crimea, you can build completely, and then in Russian Nikolaev, you can at least install a steam turbine as an energy source)) there are hundreds of them in the Russian Federation, but it is better to install the Yasen nuclear power plant so as not to depend on ports
1. faiver
  
  -2
  
  12 December 2021 10: 06
  
  and then in Russian Nikolaev
  
  I apologize to ask, have you already received a rifle for recapturing "Russian Nikolaev"?
  1. Marzhecki
    
    -2
    
    12 December 2021 10: 55
    
    Do you prefer other people to do their work instead of military personnel?
    Maybe because in our country everything is bad, that people are not doing their own thing?
    1. faiver
      
      +1
      
      12 December 2021 11: 02
      
      so we have at least half of the country not doing their own thing and for thirty years now, officials, for example, in business, and businessmen in politics
      1. Marzhecki
        
        +3
        
        12 December 2021 11: 46
        
        Yes, I know. I just do not like those who are good at chatting, explaining why something will not work out for us.
        I am for an adequate and constructive approach to any business. And I prefer to look for solutions to problems instead of being clever and wasted.
        Why "miner" writes a lot correctly, but an empty negative with zero positive load. This is not for me.
Marzhecki

-1

12 December 2021 07: 46

Quote: WASD
Answer honestly, are you a "bastard", or is it really that lousy in the industry?
If so then...
This is some kind of ... shame.

The industry is really bad. But the commentator is really all-out.
1. faiver
  
  +1
  
  12 December 2021 10: 02
  
  The industry is really bad. But the commentator is really all-out.
Marzhecki

-2

12 December 2021 07: 52

Quote: gunnerminer
secondly, in the FIG country of the BDK, the last century, when the UDC is being built?

These are not interchangeable ships. The UDC cannot approach the water's edge like the BDK. They are for different landing conditions.

Now it is not WWII and there is no need to arrange Omaha Beach-style landings. Now is the UDC time.
1. faiver
  
  +1
  
  12 December 2021 10: 04
  
  Now is the UDC time.
  
  more likely a time of money laundering and capital accumulation by the Russian oligarchy ...
  1. gunnerminer
    
    -2
    
    13 December 2021 03: 03
    
    Judging by the timing of construction, the pace of construction, the unavailability of the project, uncertainty with the heart of the UDC - the main engine, yes. Such thoughts arise. In February, or in January 2020, the Civil Code of the Russian Navy, Admiral Evmenov said that “UDC is a completely new project for Russia ... The ships' displacement will be 20 thousand tons, and they will be comparable to French helicopter carriers in their quality characteristics. " Only a couple of months pass, and TASS, referring to an unnamed source, claims that both UDCs will have a displacement of 30 thousand tons. In December 2020, the Deputy of the Russian Ministry of Defense Krivoruchko said in an interview with the Krasnaya Zvezda newspaper that the UDC is already planned to be forty thousand tons each ...
    To increase the displacement of the ship, it is necessary to change all the main components - the main
    engine, auxiliary engines, generators, fire suppression systems, fuel tanks, fuel and oil pumps, and much more. The size of the crew, the entire weight distribution is changing dramatically. For this, the designers will have to rework a lot of drawings and documents, and issue a project ready for construction. 16 helicopters of fire support are not enough. Considering the weight of explosives, their ammunition is only a couple of kilos. It means that they plan to use other aircraft. But the Su variants -57 with vertical or short take-off oh how far. For PLO ships are not well suited. In view of the lack of a modern replacement for the Ka-27PL. Especially for its outdated 40-year-old avionics, and the same old buoys. And these are just superficial questions.
2. gunnerminer
  
  -2
  
  12 December 2021 22: 40
  
  Quote: Marzhetsky
  Now it is not WWII and there is no need to arrange Omaha Beach-style landings. Now is the UDC time.
  
  Something new has appeared in the tactical-operational plan? There are certain requirements for the landing site for those who are planning an amphibious operation. One of these requirements, when the UDC is involved in the DESO (detachment of amphibious ships), there is a guaranteed isolation of the landing site from the forces anti-aircraft missile defense, air defense, anti-aircraft defense, anti-aircraft defense, missile defense at least. And the Russian Air Force / Aerospace Forces and the Russian Navy's Main Command are badly dealing with light fighters, for example, the MiG-29SMT no longer meets the requirements of modern air combat, even against the PLA Air Force. UDC, when landing by boats, becomes a sedentary target for 6 hours, and when landing with vertical coverage, at the landing site, even the presence of a company strongpoint, unsuppressed, can disrupt the landing or slow it down for an unacceptable operational period of time.
Marzhecki

-2

12 December 2021 08: 53

Quote: gunnerminer
Ships of the 1st rank must have a displacement close to 10 tons or more. And given that in the classification of ships, the growth of this very displacement has recently begun, then the fact speaks of the opposite. Even the 000M (which has not yet been built) is not, in fact, a rank 22350 ship. Rank 1 is the highest rank of ships.

A destroyer based on 1155.1M would already have a displacement of about 9000 tons. gradually it can be increased with ships of the next series, bringing it up to 10000.
1. gunnerminer
  
  -2
  
  12 December 2021 22: 41
  
  How to build up and where to repair (navigation, inter-trip, preventive, emergency repairs)?
faiver

+1

12 December 2021 10: 00

Affftorr, please visit, the whole article is hand-to-face ...
1. Marzhecki
  
  -1
  
  12 December 2021 10: 54
  
  I will not forgive, mister cumminter.
  If you are clever, then on the case, with arguments.
  And if you are the smartest, write your article in the right way, we will read it, we will also comment on it. Let's see who has where the hands and face will be.
  1. faiver
    
    +2
    
    12 December 2021 12: 18
    
    Sergei, in order to write an article you need to have information, and not the one that is present in the official press, but real, and as they say in Odessa, there are two big differences ...
    1. Marzhecki
      
      -2
      
      12 December 2021 12: 41
      
      Well, write real. Let's read it.
      1. gunnerminer
        
        -2
        
        12 December 2021 22: 43
        
        The real will not be published. The most active operational-search measures "where the firewood" of the law enforcement agencies come from.
    2. WASD
      
      +4
      
      12 December 2021 12: 45
      
      Yes, no information is needed anymore, there are terms in the public domain, and the terms say everything. We have one worthless frigate for 10 years, which is still far from being in service, the States bake Arlie Burkes like pies, 2-3 years from laying to entry into service.
      No information is needed to understand that this is just a national shame.
      Rather, even a form of humiliation.
      1. Marzhecki
        
        -2
        
        12 December 2021 13: 26
        
        The frigate has been sawing for a long time due to a complex of reasons: they got confused with weapons, lost their engine, etc.
      2. wolf46
        
        0
        
        12 December 2021 15: 27
        
        The frigates 22350 are currently occupied only by Severnaya Verf. In addition to the latter, corvettes 20380 are also being built by the Amurskiy Shipyard, which has learned to make them faster than Petersburgers, on average, 5-6 years versus 7-8.
        Next year, the laying of warships, probably landing craft 11711, suggests itself at Yantar. In my opinion, it would also be reasonable to entrust the Kaliningraders with the construction of frigates, provided that the rate of turbine production increases: the project is worked out, and 11356 will not be continued.
        
        Marzhecki
        
        -1
        
        12 December 2021 15: 46
        
        Delegating frigate production is a smart move to accelerate the shipbuilding program.
        Does the Russian Navy really need a BDK? What landings and where can you actually land from them? Just how to drive transport workers? UDC are more adequate to the challenges of the time.
        IMHO: based on the BOD, it is reasonable to resume production of destroyers at Yantar.
        
        wolf46
        
        +2
        
        12 December 2021 16: 29
        
        1) The opinion of a professional: "The production capacity of Yantar will be enough for both the large landing craft and the frigates. There can be 8 orders in the building at the same time: 6 in the boathouse and on the open slipway, 2 in the completion afloat."
        2) The Chinese Navy has about 30 BDK / TDK project 072 (analogous to the Soviet 775 and 1171). The UDC, like aircraft carriers, is the "top" of the Navy, there will never be many of them. I am convinced that BDK 11711 (M) is needed by the Russian fleet along with frigates as "workhorses".
        3) Against the different types in the Navy: by the end of this decade, objectively frigates 22350 will become the backbone of the Navy, and BOD 1155 will be "worn out".
        
        Marzhecki
        
        +1
        
        12 December 2021 18: 49
        
        Ok, I understand you.
        As for the PRC, they have Taiwan. They just need to be able to make large-scale landings. Russia is not facing tasks of this magnitude.
        
        gunnerminer
        
        -3
        
        12 December 2021 22: 49
        
        Russia is not facing tasks of this magnitude.
        
        Sakhalin, Kuriles, Transnistria, former SAR, Chukotka, Kaliningrad region.
        
        Marzhecki
        
        0
        
        13 December 2021 08: 40
        
        Sakhalin and the Kuril Islands, we will not beat off the Japanese, if anything. There the BDK will not be needed. Transnistria? This is a land operation.
        Kaliningrad region? Are you serious?
        Is that SAR. Like a cab.
        
        gunnerminer
        
        -2
        
        13 December 2021 12: 32
        
        Transnistria? This is a land operation
        
        The simplest way to the local bridgehead from the sea. To an operational depth of 150-200 km, the Ground Forces of the Western Military District will not be able to operate. For 25 years, units and formations of the Ground Forces have been practicing actions against terrorists. This doctrine has grown up generations of officers and senior command personnel. documents of the operational and tactical level have been worked out and implemented. The logistical support units have been built accordingly. The rear of the ZVO units is guaranteed to be protected and protected with nothing and no one, to such an operational depth.
        
        Kaliningrad region? Are you serious?
        
        The Kaliningrad region, Baltiysk and in peacetime are provided with the use of sea communications. And in the operational period, even more so. The Kaliningrad defense area is far from perfect. The comprehensive check of June 2016 is a hint.
        
        Is that SAR. Like a cab.
        
        Even the Turks and Greeks can easily neutralize this "cab" without using ammunition.
        
        Marzhecki
        
        0
        
        13 December 2021 12: 46
        
        The simplest way to the local bridgehead from the sea. To an operational depth of 150-200 km
        
        In any case, this would mean a full-fledged war with Ukraine.
        
        The Kaliningrad region, Baltiysk and in peacetime are provided with the use of sea communications, and in the operational period, even more so.
        
        I'm talking about wartime. What the hell are BDK? For what real tasks? In general, the Baltic Fleet is not a tenant.
        
        Even the Turks and Greeks can easily neutralize this "cab" without using ammunition.
        
        That's it
        
        gunnerminer
        
        -2
        
        13 December 2021 12: 54
        
        In any case, this would mean a full-fledged war with Ukraine.
        
        The ZVO and the KChF, even in a mobilized form, will be able to carry out only limited combat operations, at the operational-tactical level. All types of resources will not be enough at the operational level. A full-fledged war is the occupation of the entire territory.
        
        I'm talking about wartime. What the hell are BDK? For what real tasks?
        
        This is a separate broad topic.
        
        In general, the Baltic Fleet is not a tenant.
        
        With the competent, thoughtful use of even the limited capabilities and resources of the DKBF and ZVO, it is quite possible to cause unacceptable damage.
        
        Marzhecki
        
        -1
        
        13 December 2021 13: 08
        
        The ZVO and the KChF, even in a mobilized form, will be able to carry out only limited combat operations, at the operational-tactical level. All types of resources will not be enough at the operational level. A full-fledged war is the occupation of the entire territory.
        
        Ukraine does not have to be "occupied" by the Russian army. We have the DPR and LPR with their armed forces, these are local ones, with Ukrainian passports.
        As soon as Russia starts to fight in a serious way, the population will change dramatically and it turns out that the majority is always for us. Control over the territory can and will even need to be given to the "militia" of pro-Russian elements with people from Donbass in key posts. The Armed Forces of Ukraine, the police and the SBU should be disbanded and then re-created with the residents of Donetsk and Luhansk in leadership positions.
        The Russians will have a general control function.
        
        With the competent, thoughtful use of even the limited capabilities and resources of the DKBF and ZVO, it is quite possible to cause unacceptable damage.
        
        Yes, and still after that the Baltic Fleet is not a tenant. The forces there are too unequal and the BDK cannot be used in any way. As well as with Japan and the islands.
        The same can be said about Chukotka. If the Americans want to capture it, we can neither prevent it, nor beat it back in a conventional way.
        
        gunnerminer
        
        -3
        
        13 December 2021 15: 11
        
        We have the DPR and LPR with their armed forces, these are local ones, with Ukrainian passports.
        
        They do not have sufficient mobility resources to control their territory. RDGs of the Armed Forces of Ukraine wander wherever they want. Even for the construction of strongholds it was not possible to gather people.
        
        As soon as Russia starts to fight in a serious way, the population will change dramatically and it turns out that the majority is always for us.
        
        In January 2015, it was much more serious .... They did not change their shoes on an acceptable scale. Supplemented by other modest sources. For example, in terms of legal status, who will these people be first of all? Are they citizens of the DPR or are they already citizens of Russia? How in the unrecognized state will the conscription be regarded from a legal point of view? The conscription will cause an outflow of the population from the region, especially taking into account the acquisition of Russian citizenship and settling on Russian territory.
        
        The Russians will have a general control function.
        
        Judging by the situation in the republics of the North Caucasus, and especially in Dagestan, in Abkhazia, the Russians do not manage to control something much. Dagestan does not pay even for gas or electricity. And here is the propagandized Ukrainian population.
        
        The forces there are too unequal and the BDK cannot be used in any way.
        
        If you release the BDK alone, of course.
        
        gunnerminer
        
        -2
        
        12 December 2021 22: 48
        
        Quote: wolf46
        I am convinced that BDK 11711 (M) is needed by the Russian fleet along with frigates as "workhorses".
        
        + 1000 !!
        
        gunnerminer
        
        -2
        
        12 December 2021 22: 47
        
        Correctly speaking, a problem with turners of the 6th category, in 2010 on the discussed SV, there was a proposal to order shaft lines in Germany. It is just as difficult with other working specialties. The industrial complex, due to a peculiar system of salaries and financing, cannot offer competitive salaries.
      3. gunnerminer
        
        -2
        
        12 December 2021 22: 44
        
        Mountains of information in the public domain. All that is required is attention, systematicity, and balance.
Marzhecki

0

12 December 2021 13: 56

Quote: WASD
No information is needed to understand that this is just a national shame.
Rather, even a form of humiliation.

Shame, yes. Can not argue.
I'm just trying to find a ray of light in this dark realm.
faiver

0

13 December 2021 03: 20
Professional opinion: "Yantar's production capabilities will be enough for both large landing craft and frigates.

I agree, load "Yantar" with orders, and while they will build large landing ships and frigates there, order six of these from the Chinese:

Moreover, we will receive destroyers from the Chinese earlier than the products of Yantar ...
1. gunnerminer
  
  -2
  
  13 December 2021 12: 46
  
  Not a bad idea. KTOF was waiting for ships and ships. NATO is already hitting our gates with a butt.
Vladimir Daetoya

0

14 December 2021 03: 36

Do you really need the biggest ships to launch the coolest rockets? In addition, Russia now lacks precisely the number of such missiles, and not the size of ships.
BoBot Robot - Free Thinking Machine

+1

14 December 2021 12: 48

etsaaa ... we don't need big steamers! For coastal defense we need small, highly maneuverable, high-speed, heavily armed steamers and small diesel submarines! This - withdrawal from TWO world warsduring which battleships, dreadnoughts and other battleships went to the bottom for no good reason!
1. Marzhecki
  
  +1
  
  14 December 2021 13: 15
  
  The opinion of a person who does not understand anything about the essence of the issue.
  1. BoBot Robot - Free Thinking Machine
    
    0
    
    15 December 2021 22: 37
    
    me too, Admiral Nelson!
    1. Marzhecki
      
      0
      
      16 December 2021 18: 57
      
      Not admiral But I understand exactly 10 times more
      1. BoBot Robot - Free Thinking Machine
        
        0
        
        18 December 2021 23: 41
        
        So INTO, to the rank of corporal in tow?
        
        The comment was deleted.
2. zenion
  
  -1
  
  21 December 2021 16: 56
  
  Steamers should be as before - wheeled. He swam to the shore, and there he was already a tank. If you attach wings to him, then he will be able to take off from the water and from the land at the same time firing cannons with half-meter barrels with round cast iron.
iv.victor150147

+1

16 December 2021 19: 37

A country with a dwarf economy and a miserable standard of living for the bulk of people, deprived of the opportunity to acquire new technologies with collapsed entire industries. Examples are space (forgive us, Yura!), Aircraft construction (I did not fly Boeing in the Union - were there and where are Ily, Tu, Yaki?). I am not familiar with shipbuilding and do not consider myself a specialist. But why should I believe that we can do something in this industry, if looking back, I do not see anything at all produced by us? Even these comments we all write on computers made in China and invented in the States.
Terry18

0

20 December 2021 14: 25

How are the UDCs being built in Kerch, to the mortgage plate of which Putin screwed a screw in July 2020? Complete silence, no enthusiastic reports.
zenion

0

21 December 2021 16: 52

Russia has everything for the people to live comfortably, but this will not happen. Why this cannot be, no one can really explain. Also the ships in the same span. It's a miracle. A ship surrounded by water can burn.
asr55

0

31 December 2021 03: 57

At the Amur shipyard, shipyards are being modernized for the construction of large ships and at the beginning of the 22nd year a contract should be signed for 6 ships of the project 22350 or 22350m, they did not specify which will be built in parallel with the northern shipyard. But positive news anyway.
Panzerjäger

+1

31 December 2021 22: 02

Increasing the size of ships is not a problem, world practice has worked perfectly well, when an additional section is inserted into the hull and the ship increases in size. For example, the Americans, when designing the Ticonderoga-class URO cruiser, took the hull and mechanisms of the Spruens-class destroyer as a basis, increased the dimensions and strengthened the main power plant. Received a ship with a displacement of 9800 tons, almost 1000 tons more than the prototype.
As for the construction, that is, such an enterprise as the Severnaya Verf shipyard, which built Project 1134-A BODs and Project 956 destroyers, ships with a displacement of 8500 tons. When carrying out the necessary preparatory work, it is quite possible to scatter the construction of new destroyers at two factories.
The only question is to what extent the projections of the Project 1155 ship correspond to modern realities. In particular, we see that the outlines of superstructures of modern ships are adapted to the technology of minimum radar signature.
In addition, modern weapons - cruise, anti-ship, anti-aircraft missiles - are installed in vertical launch systems. Accordingly, significant below deck volumes are required. There are no such volumes on the 1155 project. Consequently, a significant redevelopment of the underdeck volumes will be required. Next, you need to design add-ins for the new configuration.
If we go back to the "Spruens" and "Ticonderoga", then due to the haste of work, the designers placed only proven weapons systems on the "Spruence", providing for the possibility of installing new weapons under development. To ensure the possibility of placing additional weapons systems, a displacement reserve was allocated, hull volumes and energy capacities were reserved, and additional reserves were taken for stability, hull strength, living quarters and food supplies (about 20%). That is, what was done was not provided for in the 1155 project.
So it turns out that you can take the contours of the project 1155 hull as a basis, but everything else - the placement of weapons and electronic equipment, the interior, superstructures - will have to be redesigned. That is, in fact, we will get a completely new ship.
Now we need to look at the tasks that this ship will perform. It makes no sense to build destroyers just to have 5-6 such ships in the fleet. Smeared across the fleets, they will not represent any force. That is, we need a series of at least one and a half dozen ships. Will the budget be able to pull such expenses?
Again, what tasks should they perform? The 956 and 1155 projects were created as ships that ensure the stability of the groupings, the basis of which was to create the cruisers of the projects 1164, 1144 and the aircraft carrying cruisers of the project 1143. I repeat, what tasks will be assigned to the new destroyers? Well, they will carry hypersonic weapons, Caliber cruise missiles, anti-aircraft missile systems and anti-submarine missile systems. From the waters of the Baltic and Black Seas, "Caliber" will cover Europe well. The challenge is clear. What about the North and the Pacific? In order to hit US territory, destroyers will have to approach the distance from which SLCMs can reach objects on their territory. But one or two ships will be doomed if they go to the Atlantic or through the central Pacific Ocean. This should be at least a naval strike group (KUG) with air defense capable of repelling massive missile and air strikes. That is, there should be at least 7-8-9 ships. The current corvettes and frigates (I spit when I hear this, since 1908 there have been Sentinel ships in the Navy), due to the small ammunition load, will very quickly remain only with artillery and self-defense systems. Consequently, destroyers must make up at least half of such a KUG.
So building isn't everything. It is also necessary to find a place for new ships in the system of combat employment of the fleet.
yuriy55

0

1 January 2022 17: 47

Well, so fair - the wind and seven feet under the keel ...
MSG363

0

9 January 2022 10: 31

Quote: gunnerminer
Your nagging is extremely exhausting

Shakers and uryakalka are even more tiresome and will lead to a tragic denouement.

A destroyer built from scratch will last another 50 years

Let at least the old ones try to repair them within a time frame acceptable to the customer.

Well, if you don't know yet, then already. And in general, it's not bad if you consider that the modernization is not complete. And everything that you are not interfering with in a bunch is normal and rather quickly eliminated separately if desired and interested. Desire and interest, as we can see, have appeared, which means that only time is needed. And yes, here everyone is somehow revolving around the Baltic shipbuilding and ship repair plants, and they are not the only ones in the country, there are also others, and their capacities in some ways will even be more than at Yantar.