How Russia can easily get a new multipurpose destroyer


Today, the main problem of the Russian Navy, in addition to the virtually complete absence (with the exception of the half-dead TAVRK "Admiral Kuznetsov" and two UDC under construction) aircraft-carrying ships, is an acute shortage of large surface ships of the 1st rank, capable of operating in the far sea zone. These problems are directly interconnected: a "clean" aircraft carrier or helicopter carrier without a cover order in a real battle is not a tenant, but also a ship group that does not have anti-aircraft cover for its carrier-based aircraft and anti-submarine helicopters against fighters, destroyers and URO cruisers, as well as multipurpose submarines AUG, against such an adversary will not stand. This is a dance to be danced together. Let's talk about multipurpose frigates and destroyers, which are badly needed by the Russian navy.


One of the stubbornly propagated theses of anti-Russian propaganda is that our country is allegedly unable to build a ship larger than a frigate. Alas, there is some truth in this, but this is far from the whole truth. The loss of Ukraine and its shipbuilding enterprises was a huge blow to the domestic fleet. All significant programs of the Russian Navy were disrupted, the deadlines were sharply shifted to the right due to the need to import substitution of power plants and other equipment. Nevertheless, with the frigates of Project 22350, things got off the ground, and this is, without exaggeration, a significant breakthrough.

Objectively, it is the frigates of Project 22350 that should become the main "workhorse" of the Russian Navy in the distant sea and ocean zones. The ships are equipped with modern missile and anti-submarine weapons, air defense systems. At the same time, the project is constantly being finalized and improved. So, the fifth and sixth frigates in the series will receive 32 vertical launchers of the UKSK complex instead of 16 on the first four, which will double their strike potential.

However, a frigate is a frigate, and the fleet also needs a destroyer. The easiest way seems to be the modernization of the original project to the level of 22350M. The new ship will grow in size (8000 tons of full displacement against 5400 for the frigate), the cruising range will increase from 4500 miles to 6000, weapons will become more powerful: 48 universal launch cells for missiles "Onyx", "Zircon", "Caliber", air defense air defense systems " Polyment-Redut "for 64 cells for anti-aircraft missiles, two helicopters instead of one and two UAVs in deck hangars. It will be a very serious warship, corresponding to the destroyer class.

There is only one "but". The first "superfrigate" of project 22350M will be laid down only in 2024, as the head of USC Vladimir Korolev recently announced:

Starting in 2024, we will begin construction of the head modernized frigate. We are aware that a modern frigate with a large displacement and armament is in great need of the Navy. Currently, this issue is being actively worked out in the Ministry of Defense.

That is, the Russian Navy will have to wait decently even with a bookmark. Plus construction time. Let us remind you that the frigates are being built in large series at Severnaya Verf in St. Petersburg. Is there a way to replenish our fleet with powerful new multipurpose destroyer-class ships in a shorter time frame?

Modernization


Here it is necessary to recall the largest series of large anti-submarine ships of projects 1155 and 1155.1, which are still preserved in the Russian Navy in the amount of eight pieces. The total displacement of the BOD is 7620 tons, which practically corresponds to modern destroyers. Ships of project 1155 were created specifically to combat enemy submarines, while weak anti-aircraft and artillery weapons, the absence of anti-ship missiles were rightly attributed to their shortcomings. To compensate for this, the BODs were forced to operate in tandem with the destroyers of Project 956 "Sarych", which de facto belonged to the class of light cruisers.


Separately, we note and emphasize that most of the shortcomings of the original project were eliminated in its modernized version 1155.1, according to which only one BOD "Admiral Chabanenko" was built. Retaining anti-submarine weapons, he received powerful artillery and anti-ship missiles, as well as two Ka-27P anti-submarine helicopters instead of one. Perhaps the last relatively weak point in it was the lack of effective medium and long-range air defense systems. In general, "Admiral Chabanenko", despite its age, even today is almost a full-fledged destroyer, to which it belongs in the western classification.

Experiencing an acute shortage of large surface ships in the far sea zone, the Russian Navy began the planned modernization of the Project 1155 BODs that remained in service. The first was Admiral Shaposhnikov, but the experiment is considered not entirely successful. On the one hand, the anti-submarine vessel has turned into a frigate due to the receipt of 16 universal launch cells capable of carrying Caliber, Onyx or Zircon missiles, a more powerful A-190-01 artillery mount and 8 Uranus anti-ship missiles. On the other hand, for some reason, it retained the obsolete and bulky torpedo tubes ChTA-53, the ineffective Kinzhal air defense system, in fact, there is no anti-torpedo armament. That is, the former BOD became formally more powerful, but remained almost as defenseless as before, against enemy aircraft and submarines.


The Russian Navy decided to work on the errors on another ship of the project 1155 "Admiral Vinogradov". It is stated that instead of 16, the newly-minted "frigate" will receive 32 missiles, and the number of anti-ship "Uranus" will increase from 8 to 16. The modern air defense system "Shtil-1" will be responsible for the anti-aircraft defense - GAS "Polynom", the complex "Packet" , missiles "Answer", as well as an air group of two Ka-27P anti-submarine helicopters. Now that's a completely different matter! The end result is either a destroyer or a light cruiser. Obviously, for a similar modernization project, it is necessary to drive out all the available BODs. And this is the right decision.

But let's not forget about age. Already now, the average age of Soviet anti-submarine warriors is 30-40 years. Modernization will extend it by 15 years. Then what? "Superfrigates" of project 22350M? It will be good if all the shipbuilding plans are implemented and do not fail. But perhaps there is another option.

Resumption of production?


As you can see, Project 1155 represents a very vast space for modernization, its main problem is only the old age of the ships. But what if you just resume their production immediately according to the modernized project? Now production of Tu-160M ​​strategic missile carriers has begun in Kazan, so why not apply this approach in the Navy as well?

Let's remember how good Project 1155.1 was, and “Admiral Chabanenko” has not lost its relevance even today. The ships of this series were not built in St. Petersburg, but at the Kaliningrad Yantar shipyard, that is, orders for it can be loaded not with Severnaya Verf, but with another shipbuilding enterprise. What could an updated and modernized destroyer, built in Russia from scratch, look like?

At first, the updated ship should be increased in size, bringing the total displacement to 9000 tons, which will allow to cram more weapons into it, and to carry out the hull using stealthof technologies.

Secondly, in terms of the power plant, it must be unified with the frigate of project 22350M by installing the M90FR gas turbine engine. This will increase the series of engines, reduce the cost and simplify their subsequent maintenance.

Thirdly, on a larger ship, it will be possible to install from 60 to 80 universal launch cells, placing them in the bow and on the side. This practically equals the Russian destroyer with the American Arleigh Burke in terms of striking power.

Fourthly, as an air defense system, it will be possible to use the more powerful anti-aircraft missile system "Polyment-Redut", as well as the ZRPK "Pantsir-M".

Fifthly, to combat submarines, it is possible to combine a modern GAK, the Packet-NK anti-submarine defense and anti-torpedo defense complex, as well as two Ka-27P anti-submarine helicopters.

In other words, with minimal revision of Project 1155.1, Russia can get an excellent modern multipurpose destroyer. All technical documentation and component base are already available, there is a new import-substituted engine for the ship. This means that the Russian Navy can receive in more adequate terms and project 22350 frigates, and Project 22350M "superfrigates" built at Severnaya Verf, and powerful destroyers based on Project 1155.1, and the Kaliningrad shipyard Yantar will only be glad of this. order.

Maybe it’s worth considering?
  • Author:
  • Photos used: Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation
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  1. Vladislav N. Offline Vladislav N.
    Vladislav N. (Vlad) 10 December 2021 13: 00
    +2
    The loss of Ukraine and its shipbuilding enterprises was a huge blow to the domestic fleet. All significant programs of the Russian Navy were disrupted, the deadlines were sharply shifted to the right due to the need to import substitution of power plants and other equipment.

    It is inconvenient somehow not to remember who exactly created such a situation in which strategically important, critical industries, to the detriment of their own producers, were in another state with an unstable political situation.
    1. TermNachTer Offline TermNachTer
      TermNachTer (Nikolai) 10 December 2021 13: 39
      -2
      With a certain sagacity and correct actions of the leading comrades, at the beginning of the 00s, this situation could have been prevented. But alas, what has grown has grown.
      1. Vladislav N. Offline Vladislav N.
        Vladislav N. (Vlad) 10 December 2021 13: 43
        0
        Quote: TermNachTER
        With a certain sagacity and correct actions of the leading comrades, at the beginning of the 00s, this situation could have been prevented. But alas, what has grown has grown.

        If the motive of rejection of measures to transfer production facilities had a selfish intent, then even in this case, these are actions aimed at undermining combat readiness. And if on purpose ...
        1. TermNachTer Offline TermNachTer
          TermNachTer (Nikolai) 10 December 2021 13: 46
          -1
          Russia had opportunities to prevent what happened in Kiev in 2014. Ukraine could remain neutral - friendly towards Russia, or it would be driven into a union state, like Lukashenko. But the Kremlin for some reason let the Ukrainian events take their course. Although, perhaps this is a long multi-move.
          1. Vladislav N. Offline Vladislav N.
            Vladislav N. (Vlad) 10 December 2021 13: 52
            +2
            Quote: TermNachTER
            Although, perhaps this is a long multi-move.

            Mnogohodovka is if the pro-Russian east of Ukraine in 14 year would have driven Bandera evil spirits into caches and methodically smoked it with grenades under the screeching of the West about human rights.
            And so, most of all it looks like sabotage with notes of self-interest.
            1. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
              Marzhecki (Sergei) 10 December 2021 13: 54
              +1
              I think it was ironic about the multi-move.
              1. Vladislav N. Offline Vladislav N.
                Vladislav N. (Vlad) 10 December 2021 13: 54
                0
                rather a mockery.
                1. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
                  Marzhecki (Sergei) 10 December 2021 13: 55
                  0
                  We somehow got distracted from the main topic of the article. The topic is very relevant. There is no way without the Russian fleet.
                  1. Vladislav N. Offline Vladislav N.
                    Vladislav N. (Vlad) 10 December 2021 13: 57
                    0
                    Recently I read on topvar an article about the Pacific Fleet and VM component of the Japanese Self-Defense Forces.
                    That's horrible!!!
                    1. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
                      Marzhecki (Sergei) 10 December 2021 13: 59
                      0
                      Yes, I have been interested in the topic of the fleet for a long time. We have a fleet in w..e. We need ships, frigates, destroyers, helicopter carriers, aircraft carriers. Without them, we are doomed to at least Tsushima-2.
                      As a maximum, there is nothing we can do to stop the naval component of NATO's nuclear triad and defend ours in the event of a real nuclear war. There is just almost nothing.
                      1. Vladislav N. Offline Vladislav N.
                        Vladislav N. (Vlad) 10 December 2021 14: 04
                        +1
                        Quote: Marzhetsky
                        Yes, I have been interested in the topic of the fleet for a long time. We have a fleet in w..e.

                        And what about SukhVo in chocolate if the t 72AV and BMP 1 are not rare?
                        And in what substance is the BTA if the minister REQUESTS to give at least 10 IL-76 per year and has been flown and delivered over the past year 4.
                        Ehhhhh, bitter and insulting!
                      2. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
                        Marzhecki (Sergei) 10 December 2021 14: 52
                        +1
                        There are many problems everywhere. It's just that the critical importance of the fleet for the country's security is underestimated. At the same time, one of the most real and terrible threats comes precisely from the sea, from the strategic nuclear submarines of Ohio, and so on.
                        Instead, we have a continuous profanation about asymmetric responses with "hypersound".
                      3. Vladislav N. Offline Vladislav N.
                        Vladislav N. (Vlad) 10 December 2021 14: 58
                        0
                        Quote: Marzhetsky
                        Submarine Ohio and so on.

                        And without Ohio enough.
                        When Deferder sailed to the Crimea, except for the slow-moving Laiba, nothing was found to be sent because everything that was suitable went to the Mediterranean.
                      4. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
                        Marzhecki (Sergei) 10 December 2021 15: 07
                        0
                        Just on Ohio Tridents-2. A terrible thing. The defender is just a floating antiaircraft gun.
                      5. Vladislav N. Offline Vladislav N.
                        Vladislav N. (Vlad) 10 December 2021 15: 19
                        0
                        Quote: Marzhetsky
                        Just on Ohio Tridents-2. A terrible thing. The defender is just a floating antiaircraft gun.

                        there is a power component, and here is a demoralizing propaganda slap in the face.
                        Obviously links in the same chain.
                      6. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
                        Marzhecki (Sergei) 10 December 2021 15: 28
                        0
                        Alas, weakness provokes. NATO is well aware of the real state of affairs in our country. A lot needs to be changed.
                        As for the fleet, I think that the parallel production of 22350M and 1151.1M would make it possible to relatively quickly restore the combat effectiveness of the surface component. By the end of the decade, 2 more UDCs will catch up.
                        Then, maybe, they will scratch themselves and take up the aircraft carriers. Without them, there is nothing special to catch in the DMZ against the AUG. And as the core of the anti-submarine search and strike group, they, together with the helicopter carriers, are irreplaceable.
                      7. Vladislav N. Offline Vladislav N.
                        Vladislav N. (Vlad) 10 December 2021 15: 33
                        +1
                        How they rejoice there in the den of their enemies! Go and laugh out loud every time our lamp is boasting.
                      8. gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
                        gunnerminer (gunner miner) 10 December 2021 17: 16
                        -5
                        Before the K-141 disaster, there was also a lot of bragging, especially with submarines. With demonstrative demonstrations of their diving maneuvers, surfacing. Leading political workers were put into helicopters for a more vivid expression of feelings (Captain 1st Rank Ivan Nidziev).
                    2. gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
                      gunnerminer (gunner miner) 10 December 2021 17: 12
                      -5
                      As for the fleet, I think parallel production of 22350M and 1151

                      Frigates 22350M need at least five units for KSF and KTOF.

                      By the end of the decade, 2 more UDCs will catch up.

                      If they remain for six months without a minimum escort from antiaircraft and anti-aircraft defense, they will become just easy targets for the most snotty enemy crews. There should be two equipped berths for them in Bolshoi Ulysses and near Vilyuchinsk, not counting dispersal points.

                      Then, maybe, they will scratch themselves and take up the aircraft carriers.

                      What are the grounds for such a conclusion? Even models of promising aircraft carriers have become much less likely to exhibit.

                      Without them, there is nothing special to catch in the DMZ against the AUG.

                      Against the AUG or AMS, they can pose a threat with a pair of Tu-22M3M divisions (which do not exist) with a pair of Project 949AM SSGN divisions (which do not exist), with a project 855M SSGN division (which does not exist).
                    3. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
                      Marzhecki (Sergei) 10 December 2021 17: 25
                      0
                      What are the grounds for such a conclusion? Even models of promising aircraft carriers have become much less likely to exhibit.

                      There is only hope.

                      Against the AUG or AMS, they can pose a threat with a pair of Tu-22M3M divisions (which do not exist) with a pair of Project 949AM SSGN divisions (which do not exist), with a project 855M SSGN division (which does not exist).

                      This is not about the aggression against the US Navy AUG, but about the air defense of its KUG and the protection of the SSBN deployment area. This is real.
                    4. gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
                      gunnerminer (gunner miner) 10 December 2021 18: 02
                      -5
                      This is not about the aggression against the US Navy AUG, but about the air defense of its KUG and the protection of the SSBN deployment area. This is real.

                      It is about protection from AUG that we are talking about. If the AUG commander does not see the likelihood of unacceptable damage, he will shove on the enemy’s KUG and closer to the areas of probable deployment of SSBNs. There is such an educational program Method for researching operations of the Navy.
                    5. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
                      Marzhecki (Sergei) 10 December 2021 18: 05
                      +1
                      That is why on their AUG we need our own: with carrier-based fighter aircraft, AWACS aircraft for issuing target designation to missiles, anti-submarine helicopters, etc.
                    6. gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
                      gunnerminer (gunner miner) 10 December 2021 18: 21
                      -5
                      Needed. But desires do not coincide with production, with personnel, with technological capabilities. With AWACS and U is a long problem, Vega does not even plan its armament of radar with AFAR. There are no PLO aircraft even in the plans. And there are no rumors about the aircraft carrier versions of these aircraft. ...
                    7. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
                      Marzhecki (Sergei) 10 December 2021 18: 24
                      +1
                      Now what? Kill yourself against the wall? Or to sort out these problems gradually?
                    8. gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
                      gunnerminer (gunner miner) 10 December 2021 18: 57
                      -5
                      Now what? Kill yourself against the wall? Or to sort out these problems gradually?

                      The plans, intentions of responsible persons in corporations, in the Ministry of Defense, in the Government of Russia are unclear. Gradually it was possible to calculate 20 years ago. Now the counter has started spinning much faster. Some plans of the State Department have changed dramatically.
                    9. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
                      Marzhecki (Sergei) 10 December 2021 19: 03
                      -1
                      This means that there will be no destroyers or a fleet. That's all. Tsushima-2 will be.
                    10. gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
                      gunnerminer (gunner miner) 10 December 2021 20: 34
                      -5
                      The deadlines for the delivery of new buildings, ships being repaired are constantly shifting to the right. It is very likely that Mr. Rakhmanov is being bullied. Plus, such actions as the unexpected flight abroad of an important figure, the Director of OJSC Novik Lyashchenko, are alarming. For a year before the drap, he did not pay the workers' wages of 72 million rubles for a year. Cool specialists were lost for ship repair. The deadlines for the repairs of ships and submarines were disrupted. The PD-50 disaster completely broke the repair schedule for rank 1 ships at the KSF. Zero reaction of law enforcement agencies. But all the dogs were let down to some memorial. Now the heroes Reznik and Sokurov. And do not care about ship repair.
                    11. gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
                      gunnerminer (gunner miner) 10 December 2021 23: 26
                      -4
                      Tsushima-2, fortunately, without human casualties.
    2. Yuri V.A Offline Yuri V.A
      Yuri V.A (Yuri) 11 December 2021 04: 06
      +1
      Let's be realistic: Vinogradov's sounded equipment is the maximum possible, which, judging by Shaposhnikov, will take three or four years at best. Therefore, out of the eight remaining Udaly, you can count on a pair for the Northern Fleet and the Pacific Fleet. And they certainly cannot be considered modern.
    3. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
      Marzhecki (Sergei) 11 December 2021 08: 08
      0
      Yes, that's right. Therefore, you need to think about building new ships in parallel with frigates.
    4. gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
      gunnerminer (gunner miner) 11 December 2021 11: 18
      -3
      Correct conclusion: These are the possibilities of military ship repair.
  2. gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
    gunnerminer (gunner miner) 10 December 2021 15: 55
    -2
    Before the crew of Defender, you need to take off your hat for blowing out the smoke of lies and fraud. There was not a single combat-ready helicopter KA-52 or Mi-28NM at the command of the KChF for a quick response to the approaching Defender. On the Su-24M, in the confusion, they forgot to submit the FAB-250. This is clearly It can be seen in the video that there is no ammunition on the guides under the wings. The recent landslide organizational measures, as a result of which the Fleet Intelligence Directorate turned into a rickety reconnaissance department. ...
  3. Astronaut Offline Astronaut
    Astronaut (San Sanych) 11 December 2021 21: 18
    +1
    Quote: Marzhetsky
    Instead, we have a continuous profanation about asymmetric responses with "hypersound".

    Why don't you like hypersound? Moreover, the topic was started back in the USSR.
  4. Astronaut Offline Astronaut
    Astronaut (San Sanych) 11 December 2021 21: 16
    -1
    As for the aircraft carriers, I would not get excited, UDC - yes, frigates, destroyers - of course. And most importantly the boats. In the Soviet Union there were more boats than the Americans, this ratio must be returned.
  • 123 Offline 123
    123 (123) 10 December 2021 15: 29
    -1
    Russia had opportunities to prevent what happened in Kiev in 2014.

    Truth? And what is it? Is it possible to send troops in 2014?
    1. Vladislav N. Offline Vladislav N.
      Vladislav N. (Vlad) 10 December 2021 15: 37
      +2
      Quote: 123
      And which one?

      that you got involved in 2014 and in the power scenario?
      genre crisis?
      some discounts on gas in an amount estimated from 500 to 700 billion.
      This is not counting other direct and indirect infusions.
      for that kind of money, you can not only have manual power there - to resettle all Russophobic and Ukrainians beyond the orbit of Pluto.
      1. 123 Offline 123
        123 (123) 10 December 2021 15: 52
        0
        that you got involved in 2014 and in the power scenario?
        genre crisis?
        some discounts on gas in an amount estimated from 500 to 700 billion.
        This is not counting other direct and indirect infusions.
        for that kind of money, you can not only have manual power there - to resettle all Russophobic and Ukrainians beyond the orbit of Pluto.

        So the recipe is like this. It was necessary even then:
        1) Cancel discounts on gas, sell it at European prices.
        2) Not a penny of investments, do not buy anything for them.
        3) Move all Russophobic and Ukrainians out of the orbit of Pluto.
        I understand correctly?

        With the implementation of the first two points, the third is impossible. He is mutually exclusive with them. Therefore, we will not consider it.
        Did you even then have in mind a by-pass route for transporting gas or not a single gram of gas to Europe either?
        Have you seen what and how much did we buy from them? Was there something to replace it already then? And the money was that even then to pay for all this at "European" prices? Or only we will raise the price of their husband, but we cannot do it for us. This is according to the principle of us, what for?
        1. Vladislav N. Offline Vladislav N.
          Vladislav N. (Vlad) 10 December 2021 15: 59
          +1
          The point was to knock a mnogobukaff niabchem except how to score the air in response to the obvious?
          you are an engaged person, dialogue with you is an empty exercise.
          1. 123 Offline 123
            123 (123) 10 December 2021 16: 03
            0
            you are an engaged person, dialogue with you is an empty exercise.

            In other words, you have nothing to argue, and immersion in reality is unpleasant?
            1. Vladislav N. Offline Vladislav N.
              Vladislav N. (Vlad) 10 December 2021 16: 04
              -1
              Exactly! There is absolutely nothing to argue with you except for blocking the air.
              1. 123 Offline 123
                123 (123) 10 December 2021 16: 07
                0
                Exactly! There is absolutely nothing to argue with you except for blocking the air.

                Everything is clear with you. I don’t dare to distract, you’re probably late for the rally. hi
              2. Vladislav N. Offline Vladislav N.
                Vladislav N. (Vlad) 10 December 2021 16: 10
                -1
                What exactly did you understand?
                Your fiasco?
                and what for the rally?)) or so in your booklet, based on the works of Ge66els, is it written to leave the topic?
              3. 123 Offline 123
                123 (123) 10 December 2021 16: 15
                0
                What exactly did you understand?

                The fact that you cannot answer the questions, just read out slogans a lot.

                Your fiasco?

                Exactly yes In this I do not compete with you request Rhymes and slogans are not mine. No.
              4. The comment was deleted.
              5. The comment was deleted.
  • gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
    gunnerminer (gunner miner) 10 December 2021 18: 08
    -4
    If we would like to disrupt the active measures planned by the Right Sector and Avakov by giving money. Then it would have cost more modest sums than the $ 18 billion proposed by Putin. We do not have an adequate number of mobilized Ground Forces to seize even part of Ukraine. As in the Tale of Tsar Saltan. Organizationally, Ukraine, the former SAR, Transnistria, Tajikistan, the Kuriles and the Arctic Circle cannot be pulled by the NGSH of the Russian Armed Forces. Cash forces are suitable only for one local theater of operations.
  • gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
    gunnerminer (gunner miner) 10 December 2021 15: 48
    -3
    When discussing the possibility of ordering gas turbines and gearboxes at Ukrainian enterprises, the doctrine of "Salvage conquering evil" prevailed. As a result, they lost precious howl, the fleet significantly lowered its combat readiness. Those who checked this decision deserve the CIA Gold Medal. But they also received promotions, solid monetary incentives.
  • maiman61 Offline maiman61
    maiman61 (Yuri) 11 December 2021 12: 53
    0
    SHO Sho? You ask who has been in power for the thirtieth year?
  • 123 Offline 123
    123 (123) 10 December 2021 15: 30
    0
    It may be worth pondering, but not building.
    1. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
      Marzhecki (Sergei) 10 December 2021 15: 41
      0
      Well there is no way. recourse We need these destroyers.
      1. Vladislav N. Offline Vladislav N.
        Vladislav N. (Vlad) 10 December 2021 15: 55
        0
        Quote: Marzhetsky
        Well there is no way. recourse We need these destroyers.

        comrade expresses deep and unshakable confidence that 15-day miscarriages with seaworthiness of 3 points but with CD, but without air defense, you can do anything other than smash the lairs of jihadist barmaley. No.
        1. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
          Marzhecki (Sergei) 10 December 2021 15: 58
          +1
          Corvettes will not fight a lot ...
      2. 123 Offline 123
        123 (123) 10 December 2021 15: 57
        +2
        Well there is no way. We need these destroyers.

        You are essentially offering to stuff an essentially new ship into the old hull.
        Do you have engines for new destroyers, for example? Does the industry's capacity allow them to be produced simultaneously for them and the frigates? Or will the frigates wait? The same goes for weapons.
        In general, this is nothing more than reasoning, but if I had an orange.
        Since we can't build destroyers yet, let's build destroyers.
        1. Vladislav N. Offline Vladislav N.
          Vladislav N. (Vlad) 10 December 2021 16: 01
          -1
          Quote: 123
          You are essentially offering to stuff an essentially new ship into the old hull.

          the long road begins with the first step.
          If we chew the contents of the sinuses, we will inevitably suffer territorial losses.
          1. 123 Offline 123
            123 (123) 10 December 2021 16: 06
            0
            the long road begins with the first step.

            Aha yes Only the step begins with one leg and not in different directions. Or the twine will work.

            If we chew the contents of the sinuses, we will inevitably suffer territorial losses.

            I recommend taking care of the contents of the sinuses. Will come in handy. yes Sitting on the twine, all that remains is to chew them.
        2. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
          Marzhecki (Sergei) 10 December 2021 16: 16
          +3
          Have you read the article at all? smile
          There is a successful project that has been worked out for a long time and requires some improvements.
          The case is not old, but new, like the filling, based on operating experience and modernization.
          There is a new engine. There will be a demand for more ships, their production can and should be scaled up. We need it for a long time.
          There is a free production site. There will be orders for the Kaliningrad region, taxes.
          Conclusion: the thesis that we cannot build destroyers is false. We have everything that is necessary for this.
          1. 123 Offline 123
            123 (123) 10 December 2021 16: 42
            -1
            Have you read the article at all?

            Do not believe it, read yes

            There is a successful project that has been worked out for a long time and requires some improvements.

            And for a long time.
            The history of the development of the BOD pr. 1155.1 dates back to the mid-1970s .... Some improvements will affect everything except the case?

            The case is not old, but new, like the filling, based on operating experience and modernization.
            There is a new engine. There will be a demand for more ships, their production can and should be scaled up. We need it for a long time.
            There is a free production site. There will be orders for the Kaliningrad region, taxes.
            Conclusion: the thesis that we cannot build destroyers is false. We have everything that is necessary for this.

            New, do you mean built built recently? The fact that it was developed long before the onset of our century is not taken into account? New engine? And excuse my curiosity, how many of them are produced per year? Is there enough for all your Napoleonic plans? We started to produce an article for April ... but as far as I understand, not in dozens a year. We have been working since 2014, the list of applicants is attached. Or will they wait?

            As part of import substitution, NPO Saturn has been carrying out three R&D projects since 2014 on the M90FR, Agregat-DKVP and M70FRU-R engines. The frigates of projects 22350 and 11356, the Zubr small air-cushion landing craft, as well as other ships and vessels of the Russian Navy will be equipped with new Russian-made engines.

            https://www.turbinist.ru/53062-pochemu-gazoturbinnyy-dvigatel-ot-saturna-luchshe-gtd-ot-zorya-mashproekt.html
            1. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
              Marzhecki (Sergei) 10 December 2021 16: 44
              0
              New, do you mean built built recently? The fact that it was developed long before the onset of our century is not taken into account? New engine? And excuse my curiosity, how many of them are produced per year? Is there enough for all your Napoleonic plans? We started to produce an article for April ... but as far as I understand, not in dozens a year. We have been working since 2014, the list of applicants is attached. Or will they wait?

              I answer
              In pursuit of what has already been said:
              the engines will have to be forced anyway for the larger 23500M. Increasing the series by using destroyers 1155.1M will only benefit the project. Due to the ability to scale production. A large series of engines is a boon for USC. Possibility to attract investments to expand production volumes.
              The same can be said about weapons.

              The history of the development of the BOD pr. 1155.1 dates back to the mid-1970s .... Some improvements will affect everything except the case?

              What's the bad luck? Currently, there is already experience in modernizing Shaposhnikov on the old building. Soon there will be Vinogradov and others. They seem to cope in the Far East.
              At Yantar, where the BOD was produced, they can handle it all the more.

              IMHO: your objections are far-fetched. hi

              The correct conclusion sounds like this: we can actually produce both frigates and destroyers in parallel at two shipyards.
              1. 123 Offline 123
                123 (123) 10 December 2021 16: 55
                -1
                I answer
                In pursuit of what has already been said:
                the engines will have to be forced anyway for the larger 23500M. Increasing the series by using destroyers 1155.1M will only benefit the project.

                Increasing the series is not a button on the keyboard to press. Ships are built on the basis of their available capabilities and they do not always coincide with the desire.

                The correct conclusion sounds like this: we can actually produce both frigates and destroyers in parallel at two shipyards.

                In the presence of components. And you are only planning to "build up" them. It's a shame you don't have an orange. crying

                What's the bad luck? Currently, there is already experience in modernizing Shaposhnikov on the old building. Soon there will be Vinogradov and others.
                IMHO: your objections are far-fetched

                Modernization is somewhat different. You are also going to build them. Or not already?
                She is already on the way, "Marshal Shaposhnikov" has passed, "Admiral Vinogradov" is next.
                1. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
                  Marzhecki (Sergei) 10 December 2021 17: 25
                  +1
                  Okay, this is already demagoguery. hi
                2. gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
                  gunnerminer (gunner miner) 11 December 2021 00: 00
                  -4
                  In Russia, there is no navy as an organized force. There are several flotillas and detachments of ships with a feeble rear, without naval aviation.
                  USC fails all the programs entrusted to it from this and the uncertainty of fulfilling the wishes of the author.
                  So far, nothing has been heard about the tests of the frigate "Admiral Golovko", and in fact it has the first domestic power plant (not counting the one that was killed before).
                  This management (along the entire vertical) definitely does not need a modern fleet. No one bears administrative penalties for the failure to meet the deadlines for orders.
                  Otherwise, everything would have been different. About the modernization of the equipment of the shipyards, they are silent.
              2. gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
                gunnerminer (gunner miner) 10 December 2021 18: 12
                -4
                The correct conclusion sounds like this: we can actually produce both frigates and destroyers in parallel at two shipyards.

                At what shipyards? In what time frame? Can we simultaneously create coastal and maritime infrastructure for the crews of these new buildings? Are the available supermode reconnaissance assets, forces and capabilities sufficient for operational support of the commanders of these ships, the command of formations?

                At Yantar, where the BOD was produced, they can handle it all the more.

                She barely pushed out the TFR indomitable, according to the bum option.
                1. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
                  Marzhecki (Sergei) 10 December 2021 18: 14
                  +2
                  Can we simultaneously create coastal and maritime infrastructure for the crews of these new buildings? Are the supermode reconnaissance assets, forces and capabilities available for the operational support of the commanders of these ships, the command of the formations enough?

                  You have already decided whether you need a fleet or not. No fleet, no problem. If we are building a fleet, we also need to build infrastructure.

                  She barely pushed out the TFR indomitable, according to the bum option.

                  BOD is their brainchild. If not them, then who? If nothing is built at all, then the last competencies will be lost.
                  1. gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
                    gunnerminer (gunner miner) 10 December 2021 18: 54
                    -5
                    You have already decided whether you need a fleet or not. No fleet, no problem. If we are building a fleet, we also need to build infrastructure.

                    I made up my mind. That is why I asked, a fleet without a sea and without coastal infrastructure, the fleet will go on potkovsky rakes. The Central Committee of the CPC began naval construction with the development of the merchant fleet, with naval educational institutions, with an auxiliary fleet, with a network of TTB and TRB.

                    BOD is their brainchild. If not them, then who? If nothing is built at all, then the last competencies will be lost.

                    On 60-year-old equipment, with a shortage of workers, they will build on unacceptable terms. Opponents did not give a subscription that they would wait decades for the Russian Navy to be at least brought to its knees. Since 1945, most conflicts began in the sea. use of aviation.
                    1. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
                      Marzhecki (Sergei) 10 December 2021 18: 58
                      +1
                      I made up my mind. That is why I asked, a fleet without a sea and without coastal infrastructure, the fleet will go on potkovsky rakes. The Central Committee of the CPC began naval construction with the development of the merchant fleet, with naval educational institutions, with an auxiliary fleet, with a network of TTB and TRB.

                      We have the power that we have.

                      On 60-year-old equipment, with a shortage of workers, they will build on unacceptable terms. Opponents did not give a subscription that they would wait decades for the Russian Navy to be at least brought to its knees. Since 1945, most conflicts began in the sea. use of aviation.

                      They will build as they can. Or they won't, and there won't be any new destroyers.
                      1. gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
                        gunnerminer (gunner miner) 10 December 2021 20: 28
                        -4
                        Infrastructure onshore (TRB, TTB, berbaza, warehouses, shelters, access roads, arsenals, workshops, dry docks and floating docks, berths) and maritime (auxiliary vessels, rescue vessels, reconnaissance vessels, universal transports, floating bases, PRTB (floating rocket-technical bases) are being built in advance, before. Accident, the commission of atomic scientists checked the nuclear power plant on 80, and other projects in 675. As a result, all boats of the 3 project were sent to the OFI. Then it was the turn of 8, 675 projects. In 1987, after the last combat service, they were sent to the OFI TAVKR Kiev. And so on. That's what such a lack of adequate coastal infrastructure. Despite the fact that the average repairs of the KFOR, reconnaissance ships, OVS and GA, parts of diesel engines 675, 941, RZK, SS, GS, PM projects were carried out abroad. Now there is no possibility of even a dock inspection of the live abroad.
                        When the TAVKRs came to the KSF and KTOF they became a colossal problem for the command of the fleets, especially for the rear of the fleet. It was simply not ready to support and supply such ships. When the TARKR Kirov arrived at the KSF in 1980, the chief of the rear was in a stupor. his colleague with the DKBF tortured him with calls about the overpowering of the TARKR for the DKBF. Even with the full support of the Plant and the Ministry. This is when the USSR had not yet collapsed! The same surprise was the Ural BRZK for KTOF.
          2. Navigator Offline Navigator
            Navigator (Andrei) 10 December 2021 21: 46
            0
            the article is largely contrary to reality. First, you will decide which plant in Kaliningrad will build ships. "Zaliv" (which was never there when it was born) or still "Yantar". And what does it mean to increase the displacement to 9000 tons. It's not a balloon to inflate. I wanted it, made it small, didn’t like it, blew more and it became bigger. This is a completely new project with all the consequences. You can only take as a basis the old documents on the 11-55 project and make constructive changes that have already been made on other BOD (frigates) of this project during modernization. Then it's real. And what you propose is a utopia. And you also need to take into account the capacity of the enterprise, which is loaded with orders to the maximum. You have expressed good wishes, but this is far from reality.
            1. gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
              gunnerminer (gunner miner) 10 December 2021 23: 22
              -3
              And what does it mean to increase the displacement to 9000 tons. It's not a balloon to inflate. I wanted it, made it small, didn’t like it, blew more and it became bigger. This is a completely new project with all the consequences.

              +100 !!! It's high time to take off your rose-colored glasses. They are a dangerous tool. Just like the caps from 1905.
            2. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
              Marzhecki (Sergei) 11 December 2021 07: 55
              0
              There is a typo, not the Gulf, but Amber, of course.

              which means to increase the displacement to 9000 tons. It's not a balloon to inflate. I wanted it, made it small, didn’t like it, blew more and it became bigger. This is a completely new project with all that it implies.

              This is a new project based on the existing and experience in modernizing the BOD. 22350M - this is 22350 increased by one and a half times.

              You can only take as a basis the old documents on the 11-55 project and make constructive changes that have already been made on other BOD (frigates) of this project during modernization. Then it's real.

              This is what we are talking about.

              And what you propose is a utopia.

              Not a utopia at all. And just excuses in the spirit of why this or that should not be done. Whoever wants, he takes and does, without smearing the snot. Then the money will be found, and the specialists will be brought up.
              Means, it is simply not necessary.

              And what you propose is a utopia. And you also need to take into account the capacity of the enterprise, which is loaded with orders to the maximum.

              What is the specific load of Amber now, that it is impossible to place an order for BOD on it? Gren and others. they were recently dead.
              There is such a thing as prioritization.
        3. The comment was deleted.
  • gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
    gunnerminer (gunner miner) 10 December 2021 15: 44
    -2
    Firstly, the updated ship should be increased in size, bringing the total displacement to 9000 tons, which will allow to cram more weapons into it, and to carry out the hull using stealth technologies.

    The main emphasis should be placed on armament of air defense with radars with AFAR. These radars are less susceptible to the effects of air explosions of nuclear warheads, do not have turning nodes that lose their properties in the Arctic. According to the NK TP, ships of the first rank are used by detachments (a couple of units). the task of anti-aircraft defense, the second provides air defense of the detachment, taking into account the superiority of NATO aviation in all zones of naval theaters.

    Secondly, in terms of the power plant, it must be unified with the project 22350M frigate by installing the M90FR gas turbine engine. This will increase the series of engines, reduce the cost and simplify their subsequent maintenance.

    The power plant will have to create a new, more powerful one. With an increase in the number and range of ammunition, aviation fuels and lubricants for a helicopter, the number of pipelines, tanks, points and actuators of fire-fighting systems will also increase, which will affect the weight distribution of the ship.

    Thirdly, on a larger ship, it will be possible to install from 60 to 80 universal launch cells, placing them in the bow and on the side. This practically equals the Russian destroyer with the American Arleigh Burke in terms of striking power.

    But in terms of operational capabilities, it does not equal. Horse to horse, horse to horse, horse to horse, in the 30s and 40s did not take place, and now with modern intelligence means of NATO, Japan, the PLA Navy, even more so.

    Fourthly, as an air defense system, it will be possible to use the more powerful anti-aircraft missile system Polyment-Redut, as well as the Pantsir-M air defense missile system.

    Subject to their performance characteristics for the conditions of modern naval combat. Taking into account the flight altitude of NATO anti-ship missiles at high-rises of about 5 m, taking into account the reduction of their reflective surface area, with a significant increase in anti-ship missiles in each salvo. In the Combat Manual of the Navy, in the Course of Combat Training of Surface Ships, and in other important documents, there are no combat exercises in which the conditions for combined attacks by submarine aviation would be set simultaneously. In the conditions of massive wide-format use of electronic warfare by the enemy.

    Fifth, to combat submarines, it is possible to combine a modern GAK, the Packet-NK anti-submarine defense and anti-torpedo defense system, and two Ka-27P anti-submarine helicopters.

    There are almost more problems here than in the air defense of a promising ship.
    The helicopter is outdated by 40 years and can be used in the absence of enemy aircraft in the ship's area of ​​operation, which is unlikely. and on board the KA-27pl there is not even an electronic warfare system, to interfere with air-to-air missile guidance systems. Torpedoes must be telecontrolled, so the enemy will use electronic warfare equipment.

    The issue of laying the frigate 22350M is vigorously discussed in the authorities, as well as the issue of ordering corvettes, patrolmen, PMs, universal supply transports, minesweepers for KTOF in the PRC.
  • Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
    Marzhecki (Sergei) 10 December 2021 15: 57
    0
    Quote: gunnerminer
    The issue of laying the frigate 22350M is vigorously discussed in the authorities, as well as the issue of ordering corvettes, patrolmen, PMs, universal supply transports, minesweepers for KTOF in the PRC.

    We used to talk about 2023, now it's 2024. I think we still need to put the eggs in different baskets.

    But in terms of operational capabilities, it does not equal. Horse to horse, horse to horse, horse to horse, in the 30s and 40s did not take place, and now with modern intelligence means of NATO, Japan, the PLA Navy, even more so.

    We have to start somewhere. Such a project is quite realistic and can give results in the foreseeable future, and not by the thirties.
    1. gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
      gunnerminer (gunner miner) 10 December 2021 16: 40
      -2
      I think we still need to put the eggs in different baskets.

      It seems that a not weak cuts in the MO budget are threatening. As well as a heated discussion of the fate of project 677, which became a burden due to the poor-quality implementation of ideas with non-penetrating peaches, with SED-1, with SAC, with BIUS and others.

      We have to start somewhere. Such a project is quite realistic and can give results in the foreseeable future, and not by the thirties.

      The problem with the new main engine, with air defense, with radar (accounting for low-flying, inconspicuous aircraft anti-ship missiles). Plus, the capabilities of the shipyards are not changing for the better.
  • gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
    gunnerminer (gunner miner) 10 December 2021 16: 35
    -1
    The first was "Admiral Shaposhnikov", but the experiment is considered not entirely successful.

    The ship was left without the main anti-submarine weapon, without telecontrolled torpedoes. The SET-65III torpedoes were outdated in the early 80s. Their guidance system was copied from the American, early 60s. 53-65K torpedoes with a small range for modern combat, only 19 km. And if the torpedo does not go with the disabled guidance system, and along the wake of the target ship, the range will be reduced by about 4 km.
  • Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
    Marzhecki (Sergei) 10 December 2021 16: 49
    0
    Quote: gunnerminer
    The problem with the new main engine, with air defense, with radar (accounting for low-flying, inconspicuous aircraft anti-ship missiles). Plus, the capabilities of the shipyards are not changing for the better.

    The engine will have to be upgraded under 23500M anyway.
    It is necessary to work on the air defense and radar station; the right to modernize ships in the future has not yet been canceled.
    The capabilities of the shipyards depend directly on orders. No orders, no work. There is an order, there is a job.
    If an order for a dozen destroyers is placed on Yantar, the enterprise will start working. Do you feel the connection?
    1. gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
      gunnerminer (gunner miner) 10 December 2021 18: 17
      -4
      The capabilities of the shipyards depend directly on orders. No orders, no work. There is an order, there is a job.

      From the number of skilled workers. Not lower than grade 4. From modern equipment, at least the level of the 90s Japanese and South Korean shipyards.

      If an order for a dozen destroyers is placed on Yantar, the enterprise will start working. Do you feel the connection?

      I don’t feel it. There is nowhere for the management of Amber to recruit several thousand skilled workers.

      The engine will have to be upgraded under 23500M anyway.
      It is necessary to work on the air defense and radar station; the right to modernize ships in the future has not yet been canceled.

      In short, the fog is impenetrable. If economic sanctions intensify, all this will remain in the fog.
  • gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
    gunnerminer (gunner miner) 10 December 2021 17: 24
    -3
    How Russia can easily get a new multipurpose destroyer

    Russia will not get it easily. The wrong industrial potential was obtained by 2022.
    1. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
      Marzhecki (Sergei) 10 December 2021 18: 09
      0
      Easy compared to having to design from scratch.
      There is a long-established project that requires some improvements, there are promising engines, there is experience in modernizing Shaposhnikov (Vinogradov is on the way), there is free production capacity - everything that is needed to start work on a real destroyer.
      1. gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
        gunnerminer (gunner miner) 10 December 2021 18: 48
        -2
        Shaposhnikov's experience can hardly be called successful. Modernized according to the homeless version. With old torpedoes,
        with RBU, the most ineffective PLO weapon. They announced the completion of the work, then six months later they realized it, began to work with air defense. Without BUGAS, an old Polynom, slightly modernized.

        there is free production capacity - everything you need to start work on a real destroyer.

        What kind of capacities have appeared, and why do they not affect the timing in the positive direction of repairs?
        1. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
          Marzhecki (Sergei) 10 December 2021 18: 50
          0
          I wrote about Shaposhnikov in the article. Capacities at Yantar.
          1. gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
            gunnerminer (gunner miner) 10 December 2021 19: 07
            -3
            If they have been repairing SKR Fearless for seven years, then a larger number of ships will cost a much longer period. This will seriously affect the price of such repair. Taking into account the considerable inflation. So-so capacities, taking into account the problems of Amber. Civilian shipowners, especially fishing companies, therefore drive their ships for repairs to Gdansk. To the Stochnia Zotoka plant. In April 2009, I saw there even a large product tanker Denver from the USA. The Americans were attracted by the price / quality / time ratio. The well-known Italian shipping company Synergy brought several of its ethylene carriers to Stochnu Zatoka for Saz. And this is one of the most complex vessel projects. The Russian vessels Akademik Ioffe and Akademik Berg were also being repaired there at the same time. Russian freezer trawlers from Murmansk, the bulk carrier of the Kola shipping company are also from Murmansk. Not on Yantar.
  • zz810 Offline zz810
    zz810 (zz810) 10 December 2021 17: 39
    -1
    Quote: Vladislav N.
    The loss of Ukraine and its shipbuilding enterprises was a huge blow to the domestic fleet. All significant programs of the Russian Navy were disrupted, the deadlines were sharply shifted to the right due to the need to import substitution of power plants and other equipment.

    It is inconvenient somehow not to remember who exactly created such a situation in which strategically important, critical industries, to the detriment of their own producers, were in another state with an unstable political situation.

    Central Committee of the CPSU
  • gorenina91 Offline gorenina91
    gorenina91 (Irina) 10 December 2021 17: 56
    -5
    How Russia can easily get a new multipurpose destroyer

    - Ha ... - Not so long ago, Russia could actually get two newest Mistrals ...
    - And I have already paid for the banquet ...
    - But ... - "chance intervened ... - And the" banquet "did not take place ...
    - The author of the topic was not impressed with his "assumptions" ... - obviously - he was not impressed and "my pluses" ("early") ... "... - In vain ... - but this is 'particular' ...
    - But to get a "new multipurpose destroyer" - it is not enough to know the tale of how a soldier cooked soup ... - "ax soup" ... - How is it ... - add "that"; season with "this"; salt well and ... and so on ... - you look and it will be quite "edible" ... - The main thing = so that only "does not burn" ...
    - But this "hodgepodge" - all the same - is not good ... - At "modern banquets" such a "brew" will simply be poured over the head of the chef ... and demoted into the wipers ...
    - Alas ... - at the "banquet" Russia did not manage to order Mistrals - sorry ...
    - But this "concoction" suggested by the author also looks rather pathetic ...
    - My cons to the author ...
  • Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
    Marzhecki (Sergei) 10 December 2021 18: 07
    0
    Quote: gorenina91
    - But this "concoction" suggested by the author also looks rather pathetic ...
    - My cons to the author ...

    - The author of the topic was not impressed with his "assumptions" ... - obviously - he was not impressed and "my pluses" ("early") ... "... - In vain ... - but this is 'particular' ...

    What is going on here?
  • gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
    gunnerminer (gunner miner) 10 December 2021 20: 48
    -3
    As for more civilian ship repair, it is at all at the level of Uncle Vasya's garage.

    Water and sea transport is of great importance for our country with its vast river system and enormous sea coast. In this regard, the importance of the shipbuilding and ship repair industry is also increasing. But with the opening of the Russian market to the outside world and at the same time a sharp reduction in defense and civilian government orders, domestic shipbuilding and ship repair enterprises lost a significant part of government benefits and were not ready for tough competition with leading foreign companies.
    The Russian shipbuilding industry is currently practically absent in the world market of civil ships, losing not only to the Asian giants - China, South Korea and Taiwan, but also to countries such as Croatia or Vietnam. Unfortunately, the share of Russia in the world market is represented by only 1-2%, which is primarily due to the lag in such important economic indicators as the timing of the manufacture of ships and ships, and their cost, the cost of repair work.
    In the context of the economic crisis, the problems of Russian shipbuilding and ship repair are as follows:
    - A significant part of the ship's equipment is not produced in Russia. For example, modern marine engines are not manufactured in the Russian Federation. When purchased abroad, components are subject to import customs duties (up to 30%). As a result, during the construction of ships for the domestic market, the increase in the value of a ship can be about 10%. Whereas when a ship is built for export, import duties on components are not levied. As a result of the trial
    Russian production costs Russian shipping companies 10% more than foreign ones. And if a Russian ship owner imports a ship and puts it on record in the Russian Maritime Ship Register, then this ship is also not subject to duties.
    - Loans and subsidies. Shipbuilding is an industry that requires large investments, the payback of which is stretched over a long period. That is why the practice is accepted in the world when the construction of ships is carried out using bank loans with their subsequent payment at the expense of the income received from the operation of the ship. There is no well-functioning system of lending in the shipbuilding sector in Russia.
    - Technological backwardness. At shipbuilding enterprises, the problem is not that the equipment has worn out due to repairs, it is maintained in working order. The problem is that this equipment is outdated morally. Due to the backward material and technical base, Russian shipbuilders are significantly inferior to the world leaders in shipbuilding in terms of the labor intensity of shipbuilding.
    - The management of enterprises, as a rule, considers individual narrow problems and does not see the situation in related industries that affect the work of the ship repair and shipbuilding industries, although they require comprehensive consideration and solutions.
    Based on the above, we can conclude that in conditions of tough competition on the market, shipbuilding cannot do without the introduction of advanced technologies and modern technological equipment in order to increase production efficiency.

    Based on materials from Krasnova Nadia Sergeevna / Krasnova Nadia Sergeevna - student, master's student,
    Department of Innovation, Quality, Standardization and Certification,
    Far Eastern Federal University, Vladivostok.
  • Navigator Offline Navigator
    Navigator (Andrei) 10 December 2021 22: 02
    +2
    To the author of the article. You have not yet mentioned a very urgent problem for our fleet - target designation. You can have it for 100 cells with CD, only there will be no sense without a CD from this. Building ships takes much longer than airplanes. It is easier to increase the number of air carriers of the CD for the defense of our borders. But again, the problem of the control center remains. Therefore, until we solve this problem, there is no particular point in rank 1 ships.
    1. gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
      gunnerminer (gunner miner) 10 December 2021 23: 19
      -2
      True. And there is no organized reconnaissance. And there is no modern naval aviation. The whole page is "no."
    2. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
      Marzhecki (Sergei) 11 December 2021 07: 57
      +2
      I've already written so much about target designation and AWACS aircraft that I'm tired of writing about it.
      I have repeatedly tried to explain to readers that without the control center, all our Calibers and Zircons are practically useless. Do not understand. They don't want to understand.
      Therefore, the article is only about frigates and destroyers. CU is a different topic, it makes no sense to mix everything into one text, unnecessarily inflating it.
      I don't think this topic is utopian. Everything is quite realizable. Optionally.
      It is possible to increase the BOD by reworking the project, you can leave it within the current dimension without complicating it. True, then there will be fewer opportunities, but also not bad.
    3. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
      Marzhecki (Sergei) 11 December 2021 11: 44
      +1
      To the author of the article. You have not yet mentioned a very urgent problem for our fleet - target designation. You can have it for 100 cells with CD, only there will be no sense without a CD from this. Building ships takes much longer than airplanes. It is easier to increase the number of air carriers of the CD for the defense of our borders. But again, the problem of the control center remains. Therefore, until we solve this problem, there is no particular point in rank 1 ships.

      For example
      https://topcor.ru/21511-pochemu-giperzvukovye-kinzhaly-i-cirkony-bespolezny-protiv-aug-vms-ssha.html
      or
      https://topcor.ru/22573-tu-214-ms-21-ili-jak-44-kakim-dolzhen-byt-rossijskij-samolet-drloiu.html
      The AWACS aircraft can still be made faster than building a dozen ships of the first rank.
  • Grib Viktor Offline Grib Viktor
    Grib Viktor (vіktor grіb) 10 December 2021 22: 06
    0
    It's time to finish playing with black! Russia and its Navy now have everything to receive in an adequate timeframe both Project 22350 frigates, and Project 22350M "superfrigates" built at Severnaya Verf, and powerful destroyers based on Project 1155.1 of the Yantar shipyard in Kaliningrad!
    1. gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
      gunnerminer (gunner miner) 10 December 2021 23: 18
      -2
      There is no main thing, thousands of qualified shipbuilders and ship repairers, modern equipment to receive in an adequate timeframe both Project 22350 frigates, and Project 22350M "superfrigates" built at Severnaya Verf, and powerful destroyers based on Project 1155.1 of the Yantar shipyard in Kaliningrad!
      1. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
        Marzhecki (Sergei) 11 December 2021 08: 04
        +1
        Well, that means nothing will happen. Calm down already.
        1. gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
          gunnerminer (gunner miner) 11 December 2021 11: 22
          -3
          If Skolkovo, the Era center in Anapa, and the advanced development territories were mass-producing robots for ship repair enterprises, one could calm down.
          1. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
            Marzhecki (Sergei) 11 December 2021 11: 36
            +1
            Well, worry then.
            1. gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
              gunnerminer (gunner miner) 11 December 2021 12: 36
              -4
              Someone's personal worries will not increase the effectiveness of the USC management.
  • Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
    Marzhecki (Sergei) 11 December 2021 08: 23
    +2
    Quote: Navigator
    And what does it mean to increase the displacement to 9000 tons. It's not a balloon to inflate. I wanted it, made it small, didn’t like it, blew more and it became bigger. This is a completely new project with all the consequences. You can only take as a basis the old documents on the 11-55 project and make constructive changes that have already been made on other BOD (frigates) of this project during modernization. Then it's real. And what you propose is a utopia.

    For example, you can order a pair of destroyers based on the modernized project 1155.1M in the current dimension. In parallel, start work on the project of increased tonnage. The way it is done for 22350 and 22350M.
    No utopias.
    1. gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
      gunnerminer (gunner miner) 11 December 2021 11: 27
      -1
      By 22350M. nothing is being done. Except for the postponement of the bookmark. Since 22350, things have calmed down. The paperwork for the modernization of the 1155 project will take more than one year.
      1. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
        Marzhecki (Sergei) 11 December 2021 11: 37
        +2
        Ok, I get it. We will all die and there is no point in floundering. Let it be as you say.
        You are satisfied?
        1. gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
          gunnerminer (gunner miner) 11 December 2021 12: 49
          -2
          I am dissatisfied with the fact that the Russian Navy is degrading in terms of its main operational parameters.

          We will all die and there is no point in floundering

          It is in this direction that the leadership of the USC and the UAC is acting, judging by the results, and not by what they say on the forums.

          A NATO strike is more and more likely from sea areas, given the increasing strike capabilities of the Japanese Navy. The Russian Navy's main command does not have the ability to rapidly build up forces in several directions. It lacks at least 30 Tu-160M2s, and at least a Tu-22M3M division. with the support of a regiment of tankers Il-78MD-90A (absent), they could relocate from KTOF to KSF, or vice versa, and with the help of reconnaissance regiments MA Tu-22M3MR (absent), regiment A-100 with radar with AFAR (absent), and SKTS Liana (not combat-ready) could provide themselves with reliable target designation and guidance. Where else could we find trained and approved crews for these aircraft, as well as the command of detachments, squadrons, regiments (period of 15 years of intensive training)?
          1. Scharnhorst Offline Scharnhorst
            Scharnhorst (Scharnhorst) 11 December 2021 22: 38
            +1
            I read the article and the dispute. Still, the author's position is closer to my body (because his own shirt, in November last year, he himself outlined a similar point of view in an article on the VO "Destroyer 2030 of the Russian Navy").
            And if you go from the opposite. Here, single American destroyers enter the Black Sea with enviable regularity, and even the English have visited. Do they have special target designation, an air defense umbrella like an aircraft carrier, an anti-aircraft defense system better than our BODs or 22350s? It's just that there may be a KRSD on board (the Englishman doesn't even have that) for strikes on the previously explored coordinates of stationary coastal objects of strategic infrastructure. If we calculate in money the cost of the presence of a foreign destroyer off our shores in two weeks and our expenses for its "escort", starting from radio technical posts, flights and ship exits to moral damage to the patriotic feelings of Russians, then we are in an economic loss. Purely out of a parity response and the ruin of the American military budget, a destroyer with "Caliber" is needed off California or Florida. good
            1. gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
              gunnerminer (gunner miner) 11 December 2021 23: 23
              -4
              Great Britain is a member of NATO. And the crews of its ships use a single information field of NATO. The satellite constellation of the United States and NATO countries is much larger than the Russian one. Reconnaissance aircraft patrol the airspace over the Black Sea around the clock, and provide their crews with reliable
              information in real time.

              then we are in an economic loss. Purely out of a parity response and the ruin of the American military budget, a destroyer with "Caliber" is needed off California or Florida.

              This is such an innovation of the naval operational art. laughing
  • Sergey Latyshev Offline Sergey Latyshev
    Sergey Latyshev (Serge) 11 December 2021 14: 41
    0
    In principle, it is logical.
    however, VO sites regularly cover strange gestures on naval weapons.
    So it's unpredictable.
    And the question is about money ... how much will it cost the taxpayers ...
    1. gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
      gunnerminer (gunner miner) 11 December 2021 14: 47
      -4
      on VO sites regularly cover strange gestures on naval weapons.

      Non-completion R&D and R&D.
    2. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
      Marzhecki (Sergei) 12 December 2021 07: 57
      +1
      And the question is about money ... how much will it cost the taxpayers ...

      Who does not want to feed his army, will feed someone else's.
      1. gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
        gunnerminer (gunner miner) 13 December 2021 03: 07
        -3
        Thank you. Enlightened. laughing Only this is not the right place. Enlighten the leadership of the UAC, USC, UEC, OPK, Rostec, KRET.Minfin.
        1. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
          Marzhecki (Sergei) 13 December 2021 06: 45
          0
          I would not be surprised if, at a certain stage, the moderators interrupt this uncontrollable stream of disclosures.
          One must know the measure in everything. You obviously don't know her.
          1. gunnerminer Offline gunnerminer
            gunnerminer (gunner miner) 13 December 2021 12: 23
            -3
            Yes, it is dangerous to voice your point of view; you have to nod and assent.
            1. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
              Marzhecki (Sergei) 13 December 2021 14: 56
              0
              You live in Russia.
  • Vladimir Titov Offline Vladimir Titov
    Vladimir Titov (Vladimir Titov) 13 December 2021 10: 43
    0
    What prevents the 22350M frigate from being built at the Kaliningrad plant?
    Yes, he is weaker than Arleigh Burke, but not fundamentally.
    It is better to have many ships of the same type. For the country it is cheaper, we are not so rich.
    1. Marzhecki Offline Marzhecki
      Marzhecki (Sergei) 13 December 2021 14: 57
      0
      In theory, nothing interferes. Especially when you consider that Severnaya Verf postponed the laying of 23500M until 2024.
      The slipway seems to be adapted to the increased body.