Springboard to Nowhere: On the Serious Shortcomings of the Russian UDC Project 23900

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Speaking about the needs of the Russian Navy, we previously touched the topic of construction in Russia of two UDCs of project 23900. In general, this is a very correct undertaking, which is a transitional step to the emergence of a modern aircraft carrier fleet in our country. However, the universal amphibious assault ships under construction in Kerch have a number of serious problems that are visible to the naked eye, which can prevent the full potential of the Ivan Rogov and Mitrofan Moskalenko from fully unlocking.

Speaking about the possibilities of the UDC, one should refer to the Western experience. The undoubted trendsetters in this area are the United States, and American allies from Europe and Asia are trying to follow their example. Russia has gone its own way in this matter, and, alas, this is exactly the case when it is not worth reinventing the wheel. But let's talk about everything in order.



UDC abroad


In the United States, there are currently two types of UDCs in the ranks - "Wasp" and "America". And these are, without exaggeration, the best universal amphibious assault ships in the world.


The full displacement of the UDC type "Wasp" is 40,5 thousand tons. They are capable of transporting armored vehicles, as well as up to 2 thousand marines, have a straight rectangular deck, on which helicopters, tiltrotors, aircraft with short takeoff and vertical landing can be based. The "Wasp" air group changes depending on the task: to gain supremacy at sea, they are equipped with deck-based SCVVP and anti-submarine helicopters, for landing ashore - attack and transport helicopters, as well as F-35B fighters. A total of eight ships of this type were built in the United States, which are rightfully considered light aircraft carriers, but one of them was recently seriously damaged by fire and was decommissioned.

Today the top of perfection in the field of UDC is the "America" ​​project. The Pentagon has planned the construction of 11 such ships, 2 are already in service, one is on the slipway. The full displacement of this type of UDC is 45,7 thousand tons. "America" ​​also carries up to 2 thousand marines, but its main advantage is its reinforced air wing. The ships have a straight rectangular deck, on which 12 MV-22 tiltroplanes, 5 SKVVP F-35B, 4 ΑH-1Z attack helicopters, 4 ΜΗ-53 and 3 UH-1 helicopters can be based. An inexperienced viewer will not understand how this UDC differs from an aircraft carrier in general. Strictly speaking, nothing, this is a light aircraft carrier.


The French and Egyptian navies are armed with Mistral-type UDCs. They are capable of transporting troops and armored vehicles, and act as command ships. The straight deck of a rectangular shape accommodates multipurpose or attack helicopters. The Russian Navy was supposed to get 4 UDCs of this type, but Paris thwarted the deal. Domestic ships of the project 23900 are designed to replace the Mistral, but we will return to this issue later.


For the Chinese Navy, 3 UDC type 075 are under construction. It is obvious that Beijing was inspired by the experience of the United States and France, because these ships are something in between "America" ​​and "Mistral". The total displacement of type 075 is 40 thousand tons, the helicopter carriers have a straight solid rectangular deck, which makes it possible to base aircraft with a short takeoff and vertical landing on them.


Spain and those countries that cooperated with it took a slightly different path. The versatile amphibious assault ship "Juan Carlos I" L61 was also built with an eye on the American "Wasp", but in contrast to it has a springboard on the bow. Its straight deck at the end is noticeably upturned, which should facilitate the takeoff of the SCVVP type "Harrier" or F-35B. A new Turkish UDC TCG Anadolu (L-400) and 2 Australian UDCs of the "Canberra" type were built according to the same modified Spanish project with a springboard.

How the UDC turns into an aircraft carrier



Why have we devoted so much time to reviewing the UDC of foreign projects? As you can see, the deployment of F-35B or Sea Harrier fighters on them turns universal amphibious ships into multipurpose light aircraft carriers. The question is, is it worth building "ordinary" heavy aircraft carriers at all, if there is a UDC? The question is not so simple.

On the one hand, horizontal take-off and landing carrier-based fighters have a significant advantage over SCVVP in terms of flight range and combat load. Pilots leave a lot of health when taking off from a catapult, but an AUG with a full-fledged aircraft carrier has a much larger combat radius than an AUG, which has a UDC with SCVVP, and therefore can act against it from a safe distance for itself. A vertical takeoff and landing aircraft is forced to consume too much fuel during takeoff and landing, and its payload is much less than that of the American carrier-based aircraft. This situation can be partially corrected by taking off according to a shortened scheme with a vertical landing (there is nowhere to put catapults and aerofinishers on the UDC). It is even better if there is a springboard on the bow, which is done on the Spanish, Turkish and Australian amphibious assault ships. However, mention should be made of the main unavoidable drawback of the UDC: it is impossible to place and use an AWACS aircraft on them, which is necessary for reconnaissance, air combat control and the issuance of data for target designation to ship missiles.

Taken together, this means that the basing of aircraft with a short takeoff and vertical landing on UDCs with a bow springboard significantly increases the combat capabilities of such a light aircraft carrier. Yes, it is not competitive against the AUG of the US Navy, but it can be used as an escort aircraft carrier, as the core of a search and strike anti-submarine group, as well as for strikes along the coast, followed by a landing. We conclude that universal amphibious assault ships should not replace, but complement full-fledged aircraft carriers, as well as SCVVPs are not a panacea, but have a wide enough niche for use in conjunction with horizontal take-off and landing aircraft.

What's wrong with the project 23900 UDC?


Now let's move on to our rams. As we have already noted, the decision to build two domestic UDCs is the right step. The Russian Navy will significantly expand its capabilities for operations in the far sea zone. The helicopters will allow "Ivan Rogov" and "Mitrofan Moskalenko" to conduct anti-submarine warfare and fire support of the amphibious assault. Turning them into the first two Russian light aircraft carriers could be the appearance of the Navy's own SCVVP.

At the moment, we do not have short takeoff and vertical landing aircraft. In the late Soviet period, a very successful supersonic carrier-based fighter Yak-141 was developed, and in the early nineties, work was underway on its modernized version of the Yak-201. Several years ago, the profile Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov said that the topic of "vertical units" is returning to the agenda again, and this is worth welcoming, since the SCVVP can be used not only in the fleet, but also on the front line on land in the event of the destruction of military airfields by missile strikes enemy. But are our future UDC ready to receive these aircraft?


Let's take a closer look at the layouts of Project 23900. What we see: instead of a straight rectangular deck like on Wasp, America or Mistral, or a rectangular deck with a springboard on the bow, like on Spanish, Turkish and Australian ships, on Russian The UDC deck has an irregular shape, strangely narrowed towards the bow. At the same time, the superstructure seems to be too massive when compared with foreign counterparts. But why? The simple rectangular shape maximizes the use of the deck area for helicopters. The "girls-designers" who drew the project 23900, just themselves stole the useful area from the navy. But that is not all. Such a deck design deprives the possibility of a quiet take-off from the UDC of SKVVP fighters according to a shortened scheme, that is, the transformation of Russian universal amphibious assault ships into light aircraft carriers becomes questionable.

Of course, you always want to do it your own way, but why make it worse? What is this, stupidity or sabotage? It might be worth reconsidering the approach and making changes to the 23900 project while it is still in the early stages of construction. You just need to make a normal rectangular deck, perhaps with a springboard on the bow, and slightly reduce the size of the superstructure. And then we get 2 really multifunctional UDCs.
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  1. 123
    +10
    24 September 2021 12: 57
    How much can you talk about the same thing? The layout in the picture has little to do with the actual ship under construction. As you get a real look, then we'll talk, and there is no point in crushing the water in the mortar.
    1. -5
      24 September 2021 13: 30
      How much can you do about the same thing?

      As much as you need.

      The layout in the picture has little to do with the actual ship under construction.

      Who said that?

      How you get a real look, then we'll talk

      Then it will be too late and you will have to spend time and money on restructuring.
      1. 123
        +5
        24 September 2021 15: 28
        Who said that?

        So many have already written, read more than once. Here's one example.

        https://kerch.fm/2021/01/06/novyj-rossijskij-avianosec-proekt-priboj-v-kerchi-na-glazah-pererastaet-v-legkij-shtorm.html
      2. +3
        25 September 2021 17: 17

        But what about the fact that the picture that was shown to the President does not look like yours in the article?
    2. +4
      24 September 2021 13: 33
      If the displacement of the ship changes at the beginning of construction, then the appearance is all the more not final)
      1. -2
        24 September 2021 15: 47
        Well, it would be nice to decide before the start of construction what we are building and why.
        and not along the way, reshaping the project, wasting extra time and money. I'm right?
        1. +3
          24 September 2021 17: 29
          Quote: Marzhetsky
          well, so it would be nice to decide before the start of construction

          How do we know? The layout is not a working project.
      2. -2
        24 September 2021 16: 15
        Quote: wolf46
        If the ship's displacement at the start of construction changes

        then, I will answer with the link that 123 gave:

        It is unlikely that this is possible without serious errors in the calculations. Which, in this case, will most likely "come out" more than once during tests and during operation

        In general, this is sabotage - to start building a ship without a final project. Build and rebuild (and not for free), in order to end up with a ship of dubious quality (with serious errors, read: disadvantages). What is it called differently?
        All our ears were buzzing here, with the unhurried commissioning of the Su-57 - they say, "let them test it, but it should be done properly, there is no need to rush to drive the raw car into production." Is it normal to start building a ship without a project, and then rebuild it right on the slipway (in fact, re-mortgage, because a doubling of displacement is a completely different ship) - is that normal?
        1. 123
          +1
          25 September 2021 14: 09
          Is it normal to start building a ship without a project, and then rebuild it right on the slipway (in fact, re-mortgage, because a doubling of displacement is a completely different ship) - is that normal?

          In my opinion, you are somewhat exaggerating. The bookmark of the ship is an event where people gather, say beautiful words, clap and fasten a sign. The ship itself, in fact, is not yet. Now, if they built it for a year or two, and then they began to redo it, it would be worse. In the meantime, in fact, we do not know anything about the project, or about the characteristics of the ship, or about the course of its implementation. The most reasonable thing would probably be to be patient and wait for more information to appear. But this does not concern you, this is the job. (if that's not a reproach and no sarcasm)
          1. -4
            25 September 2021 15: 28
            Quote: 123
            The bookmark of the ship is an event where people gather, say beautiful words, clap and fasten a sign. The ship itself, in fact, is not yet.

            The ceremonial laying as an event has always been something formal, and now it is even more so, it is just a tribute to tradition. For modern ships are built in a completely different way than before - from the laying of a keel beam and riveting a mortgage plate to it. De facto, the construction of the ship begins earlier than the official date of the bookmark passes - this is the cutting of metal for the hull sections of the future ship and their formation. Metal, as you know, is not cut as it should be. For a long time already the hulls have been assembled from sections (sometimes - even in different countries, as was the case with the Russian Mistrals, the aft ends were assembled at the Baltic Shipyard, the rest in France) and then they are joined on the main slipway.


            Quote: 123
            But it doesn't concern you, the job is

            you know nothing and you cannot know anything about my work. But I know about yours - to build groundless guesses and conjectures and do not feed bread, let me discuss the personality of the interlocutor. Or is it a hobby? In any case, such an individual is called a hollow. hi
            1. 123
              +1
              25 September 2021 18: 25
              For a long time already, the hulls have been assembled from sections (sometimes - even in different countries, as was the case with the Russian Mistrals, the aft ends were assembled at the Baltic Shipyard, the rest in France)

              I will not thank for the lecture, nothing new has been written. Or do you have something to report on the assembly of the section and sending it to the factory? What was cut there and what did you plan to lay down, you do not know when the decision was made to change the project and whether it was at all, too. will we discuss your "fabrications" and assumptions?

              you know nothing and you cannot know anything about my work.

              What have you got to do with it? Didn't write to you, so can you pass by, or are you applying for authorship of the article?

              But I know about yours - to build groundless guesses and conjectures and do not feed bread, let me discuss the personality of the interlocutor. Or is it a hobby? In any case, such an individual is called a hollow.

              Reread the first paragraph. winked
        2. 0
          25 September 2021 16: 40
          Quote: Phantom
          Is it normal to start building a ship without a project, and then rebuild it right on the slipway (in fact, re-mortgage, because a doubling of displacement is a completely different ship) - is that normal?

          And who said that there is no project? He is there.
          But not everyone was informed about it. That's all. hi
    3. +1
      25 September 2021 08: 55
      as a rule, such articles are written to learn more about what is hidden behind the veil. It smacks of intelligence. It was high time to keep all tenders and contracts secret.
      1. -5
        25 September 2021 11: 20
        Smacks of delirium wink
        "As a rule" - what is this rule, by the way, who brought it out, will you share it?
        1. +1
          25 September 2021 16: 10
          Dear!
          I rarely criticize the authors of the articles. I understand - hard work, but the critics are better off writing something sensible.
          But you are an exception.
          No one (except for a narrow circle) knows the appearance of the helicopter carriers under construction.
          No one (except for a narrow circle) even knows the displacement of these helicopter carriers.
          But you, not part of a narrow circle, write:

          Of course, you always want to do it your own way, but why make it worse? What is this, stupidity or sabotage? Probably, it is worth revising the approach and making changes to the 23900 projectwhile it is still in the early stages of construction.

          Even VVP did not begin to tell anything about the purpose of the ship. I watched as he was about to "open the veil of secrecy", but changed his mind and did not.
          And you, not knowing anything at all about these ships, already about

          stupidity or sabotage

          feel free to write?
          It is very vain and absolutely incorrect.
      2. 0
        25 September 2021 16: 27
        Quote: zloybond
        It was high time to keep all tenders and contracts secret.

        So these ships were classified as exemplary.

        On September 11, 2019, TASS, citing two sources, reported - "Two UDCs with a displacement of 15 tons for the first time in the history of Russia are planned to be laid at the shipyard in Kerch in 000".

        On August 14, 2020, the same TASS, referring to an unnamed source, reported - “The tactical and technical characteristics of the ships have changed markedly during the design process. Their displacement has grown to over 30 tons. "

        In December 2020, Deputy Defense Minister Alexei Krivoruchko said - "Under the leadership of the President of the Russian Federation, two universal amphibious assault ships of a new project with a displacement of 40 tons each were laid down."

        And the author of the article already demands to eliminate the shortcomings! laughing
    4. 0
      25 September 2021 11: 56
      We see the work of girls-designers. And I want to see the work of boys designers.
  2. -2
    24 September 2021 15: 08
    1) In the article, almost everything is written correctly, based on the photo of the model toy.
    2) it seems that Sergei himself wrote earlier that there will be a cunning plan P, and in the end there will be light aircraft carriers.
    3) in the internet there are already other "real" UDC plans, with more square decks, with several different options
    4) An article with a partial analysis of the performance characteristics of vertical take-off aircraft has just been published on VO, everything looks good for them (who has them)

    in general, it's too early to worry)))))
    1. 0
      24 September 2021 15: 49
      2) it seems that Sergei himself wrote earlier that there will be a cunning plan P, and in the end there will be light aircraft carriers.

      will be, if there are SLEs. and they require a longitudinal deck, not a figured mosaic. that's what the article is about.
  3. -1
    24 September 2021 15: 17
    amateurism and populism for the sake of hype))
    have you heard about air resistance while driving?
    And what does the shortened takeoff / landing have to do with it, if the planes are not even planned to be used?
    and the pointed element does not cut the area, it is just that this element is taken out
    1. -1
      24 September 2021 15: 41
      And what does the shortened takeoff / landing have to do with it, if the planes are not even planned to be used?

      Who said?

      and the pointed element does not cut the area, it is just that this element is taken out

      what are you talking about?!
    2. -2
      24 September 2021 16: 05
      Quote: Troy Heinrich
      dilettantism

      from your side - yes

      Quote: Troy Heinrich
      the pointed element does not cut the area

      If the deck were in the outlines outlined in red, its area would be higher, with the same dimensions of the ship. And every square meter on a ship is worth its weight in gold


      In the area that was cut off in the nose, it would be possible to place four helicopters "in the parking lot". Not to mention the fact that such a pointed deck cannot be used to take off an aircraft or a heavy UAV.

      Quote: Troy Heinrich
      where is the shortened takeoff / landing, if the planes are not even planned to be used?

      Where did you get the information that they are not planning? Conversations about the domestic vertical have been going on for a long time. And about deck UAVs too (you can look at the links that someone under the nickname 123 gives). Both, for good, need at least a small run-up. Did you see the F-35 take off from the Wasp? Due to the run takeoff, the aircraft has a higher takeoff weight and takes on board more fuel and weapons.

      Quote: Troy Heinrich
      have you heard about air resistance while driving?

      at that speed (max. 22 knots, that's about 40 km / h), the difference in air resistance losses with rectangular and truncated decks will be negligible to think about at all. Do you have an engineering degree? If there is - count, if not - you should not give an absolutely erroneous opinion of Dunno. The lion's share of losses on movement is resistance in the aquatic environment, the contours of the ship's hull are important, but not the deck or superstructures. By the way, for the superstructure. Here it is, inflated in size, will have a negative impact on aviation flights, creating turbulent vortex flows behind it. The British took it on the first aircraft carriers, it took place in the USSR on helicopter carriers of the "Moscow" type. Therefore, they try to make it smaller and "push it into the corner", and also because, again, to save useful deck area.
      1. -1
        25 September 2021 17: 50
        Quote: Phantom
        In the area that was cut off in the nose, it would be possible to place four helicopters "in the parking lot".

        You are apolitical ... laughing
        There is a nasal ramp on the model of the UDC shown by you.
        Therefore, the nose is narrowed. Nobody and nothing there "cut".
        And if there is no nasal ramp on the UDC, then the nose can be as the author wants. wink
        There is no bow ramp at 23900. And on Mistral was not.
        1. -3
          25 September 2021 18: 26
          Quote: Alex777
          On the layout you provided

          not by me. This layout is issued as a layout pr 23900

          Quote: Alex777
          UDC layout has a nasal ramp

          proof in the studio. UDC nasal ramp is not needed a priori, this is a family trait of the BDK

          Quote: Alex777
          There is no nasal ramp on 23900

          it shouldn't be
          1. +1
            25 September 2021 18: 46
            Quote: Phantom
            evidence in the studio.


            So this is the UDC layout. He has nothing to do with 23900.
            It can be seen so clearly:


            ?? wink
            So you can remove the cons. Yes

            PS This is also not a reliable option, but at least it looks like a mortgage board.


            The number of pipes for example. wink
            1. -1
              25 September 2021 19: 28
              Ok, this is "Surf". But it was according to this project that they wanted to build ships. And I think the criticism of the project is quite fair. The presence of a bow ramp and artillery weapons in general makes it possible to judge the project as a strange cross between the UDC and the BDK.

              Quote: Alex777
              PS This is also not a reliable option, but at least it looks like a mortgage board.


              The number of pipes for example. wink

              There are also questions for this picture (for example, on deck lifts), but at least it looks like something similar to UDC.
              The abundance of vague projects indicates the absence of a clear line, the impression is that neither the customer nor the designers really understand what and how to do.
              1. 0
                25 September 2021 19: 33
                Quote: Phantom
                The abundance of vague projects indicates the absence of a clear line, the impression is that neither the customer nor the designers really understand what and how to do.

                This does not mean anything except that our leadership, for the time being, does not want to upset the "partners" much. bully
                And all the reasoning that ships are built without a project is not worth a damn. Yes
                1. -1
                  25 September 2021 19: 51
                  Quote: Alex777
                  This does not mean anything except that our management, for the time being, does not want to upset the "partners" much

                  speaks just about the above. Otherwise, there would be no such strange shuffling from side to side.
                  As for the "frustration" of the partners, then, given the domestic pace of construction, they could have given all the documentation right now - things would not have changed. Almost everything will be known about future ships, long before they are launched. And in general, how would they be upset? That the Russian Navy will finally receive two Mistrals in ten years?

                  Quote: Alex777
                  And all the reasoning that ships are built without a project is not worth a damn

                  "Ivan Gren" as an example for you. The ship was laid down without a ready-made RKD package. Actually, there is nothing surprising about 23900, given the "rich experience" of ZPKB in the construction of large ships, especially BDK and UDC, and taking into account the design time
                  1. 0
                    25 September 2021 20: 32
                    Quote: Phantom
                    "Ivan Gren" as an example for you.

                    What do you know about "Ivan Gren"?
                    Did you take part in its construction? wink
                    Or read the newspapers?
                    1. -4
                      25 September 2021 22: 34
                      What do you know about Ancient Rome? Did you live there? Or read something?

                      Get you a prize for the best question of 2021
                      1. 0
                        26 September 2021 14: 34
                        Quote: Phantom
                        What do you know about Ancient Rome?

                        So I am not giving you Ancient Rome as an example. bully
                        Some of the turns of your speech reminded me of a colleague from Amber. That is why I asked - did you take part in the construction of "Ivan Gren"?
                        A positive answer would add value to your advice in my eyes. wink

                        Get you a prize for the best question of 2021

                        Have a nice one you too. Yes
  4. +2
    24 September 2021 19: 02
    On September 11, 2019, TASS, citing two sources, reported - “Two UDC with a displacement of 15 tons for the first time in the history of Russia, it is planned to lay at the shipyard in Kerch in 2020 "

    In January 2020 - 6 months later - the Commander-in-Chief of the Russian Navy, Admiral Nikolai Evmenov, already stated that displacement "Priboev" will be more than 20 tons, and that in their characteristics they will surpass the French "Mistrals"

    In July 2020, the laying down of two ships took place, overseen by the President of Russia. It can be assumed that ships with a displacement of 20 tons were laid. But what is surprising is that on August 000, 14, the same TASS, referring to an unnamed source, reported - “The tactical and technical characteristics of the ships have changed markedly during the design process. Their displacement has grown to over 30 tons.».

    In December 2020, Deputy Defense Minister Alexei Krivoruchko said - “Under the leadership of the President of the Russian Federation, two universal amphibious assault ships of a new project with a displacement of 40 tons each»

    Vladimir Putin: “They are good, modern. We even planned to redo them a little and use for other purposes... Practically the same, only for other purposes. But now I will not talk about it yet "

    The queen gave birth to the night
    Not a son, not a daughter;
    Not a mouse, not a frog,
    And to an unknown animal
    1. 0
      24 September 2021 21: 06
      But the right thing was noticed ....... So at the end of the year, M.'s article on the decision of Min. defense on the construction of a UDC with a displacement of not 40 thousand tons, but 70 thousand tons ........
      1. +2
        24 September 2021 21: 36
        I skimmed through a couple of English-language sites on these ships. There is also bewilderment. It is impossible to change 3 or 4 projects in one year. So something else was originally designed. Possibly small aircraft carriers are under construction. Russia is said to have the world's largest fleet Projects aircraft carriers. Every joke has its share of a joke. UDC corps in Kerch have already begun to form. And again we are talking about 30 tons
        https://dfnc.ru/novosti-vpk/na-kerchenskom-zalive-nachali-formirovat-korpusa-budushhih-udk/

        The Russian industry will not be able to handle 70 thousand tons at present.

        About 10-15 years ago, I had a discussion with sailors about Bulava missiles. I was told to firmly grasp one truth. First, a concept is created, then a weapon for solving this problem, and only then a ship is built for this weapon. And there is no other way to build a ship.
        1. -2
          25 September 2021 07: 22
          UDC corps in Kerch have already begun to form. And again we are talking about 30 tons
          https://dfnc.ru/novosti-vpk/na-kerchenskom-zalive-nachali-formirovat-korpusa-budushhih-udk/

          It is necessary to distinguish between standard and full displacement.

          The Russian industry will not be able to handle 70 thousand tons at present.

          Lies. You can build a bigger ship at Sevmash.
          1. +2
            25 September 2021 08: 24
            And where is this full or standard displacement indicated?
            You can build a larger ship. Where can I get the rest? Escort grouping, infrastructure, weapon systems, trained crew? In reality, an aircraft carrier of 70 tons or more can be built no earlier than the end of the 000s. This is the beginning of construction. The preliminary cost is 2020 billion rubles. In reality, there will probably be more.
            And then, it would be necessary to see the Sevmash loading plan

            Mikhail Budnichenko (General Director of Sevmash): Our plant has great prospects, the load is clear until 2030... We will continue the construction of these two groups of nuclear submarines - the Yasen-M and Borey-A projects. As for the series of multipurpose cruisers, the construction of eight nuclear submarines of this project is proceeding in accordance with the approved schedules of the Ministry of Defense.

            The problem with most articles is that this is taken from the purely technical side of the matter, without taking into account other factors. Until the end of the 2020s, there are no plans to build an aircraft carrier. There is no technical feasibility. "Lies" is incomplete information.
            1. 0
              25 September 2021 11: 15
              And where is this full or standard displacement indicated?

              These are questions for the press office of the Gulf. must specify what they mean.

              Where can I get the rest? Escort grouping, infrastructure, weapon systems, trained crew?

              the escort group is the Northern and Pacific fleets. There, and so there are in the cruisers, destroyers and BOD. now a series of project 22350 and 22350M multipurpose frigates is under construction.
              weapons systems are new aircraft that need to be designed anyway. Su-75 can be overwhelmed. MiG is preparing to design its own deck.
              teach at Admiral Kuznetsov.
              500 billion - this is in stages for 10-15 years.
              1. +1
                25 September 2021 13: 32
                Build a Fleet around a single aircraft carrier?
                The main task of the Northern and Pacific Fleets is to deter the enemy and inflict unacceptable damage on him. This task is being solved by underwater strategic missile carriers. And Sevmash is loaded with these orders. All other tasks are secondary.
                To solve this problem, you must have full control over the near sea zone. Yes, far-field ships are being designed and built. But in single copies and as a reserve for the future.
                In 2027-2028, they will launch these UDCs, helicopter carriers, or light aircraft carriers, conduct exercises, find out their capabilities and make decisions based on this.
                Americans can build UDC. Because they are supported by a full-fledged AUG, which can solve the whole range of tasks to support the landing. Russian UDCs can operate only under the cover of base aircraft.
        2. 0
          25 September 2021 13: 02
          Quote: Bakht
          First, a concept is created, then a weapon to solve this problem, and only then a ship is built for this weapon.

          The creation of weapons and a ship (platform for it) is going on in parallel, otherwise nothing good will come of it. For example, give free rein to the rocket scientists - and they will make the "best" rockets weighing 300 tons each and unrealistic dimensions - how then can all this splendor be inscribed into the ship? Or will the aviation design bureau make an aircraft that is unrealistic to operate from a deck of a sane dimension? Or electronics engineers will make again the "very-very" radar with an antenna canvas the size of a football field and the power consumption of a small town? As a rule, the designers of the same ships give out the limiting parameters for the placed weapons and equipment - weight, dimensions, and other necessary information. Of course, armament is a priority (a ship is still just a "wagon" for armament), but it is impossible to design one in isolation from the other.
          Another example for you is the creation of weapons for modern ships with UVP. Here is a standard naval launcher - and fit the missile into the size and weight that it allows. Not a centimeter or kilogram more.

          Quote: Bakht
          You can build a larger ship. Where can I get the rest? Escort grouping, infrastructure, weapon systems, trained crew?

          Of all that has been said in relation to the topic of an aircraft carrier, the real problem is only infrastructure, and, to some extent, aircraft weapons. There is nowhere to base and service such large and specific ships in the number of at least 4 pieces at the moment. Well, this problem applies to any ship, be it a frigate, destroyer or submarine. "Typhoons" also had nowhere to base and maintain, but no one asked the question "let's not build SSBNs." Moreover, during the construction period (and taking into account Russia's traditionally unhurried pace) - it will take at least 15 years - both the infrastructure can be created, and three crews can be trained (why this question has come up at all is a mystery). With carrier-based aircraft, and, in particular, with deck pilots (of whom we can count on our fingers now), it is more difficult, but it can also be solved.
      2. -1
        25 September 2021 07: 20
        What exactly is noted correctly? The fact that the displacement of the project was gradually increasing is a well-known fact. We are talking about those ships that are already under construction. Complaints about the shape of the deck for the reasons described above.
        So what is it that our Bakhtiyar has noticed that is right in the essence of the question?
        1. +4
          25 September 2021 08: 26
          It was not just the displacement of the project that changed, but the project itself. Moreover, in 1 year it has changed three times. These are different projects... And the Commander-in-Chief (Putin) noted that it is still unknown what kind of ships they will be.

          two UDC projects - from the Nevsky Design Bureau (NKPB) "Priboy" and the Krylov State Scientific Center (KGNTs) "Avalanche", in a simplified (export) version "Priboy". According to the NKPB project, the ship was supposed to have a displacement of about 14 tons. According to the KGNTs project, the ship was supposed to be somewhat larger - with a displacement of 000 tons

          two UDCs for not marked (to another) the project will be launched in May 2020 already at the Kerch shipyard "Zaliv" with the delivery of the lead ship to the Russian fleet by the end of 2027. The reason for the abrupt rejection of the Priboy project and its replacement with another UDC project officials did not comment.

          In order not to run around the sites, I took it from Wikipedia.
          1. -2
            25 September 2021 11: 16
            This is how you confuse the ships when you write about the Priboi. I am writing about the 23900 project.
            1. 0
              25 September 2021 13: 25
              So the name of the project was "Surf". And this project is in the article exactly as the ships of the project 23900. Type in Wikipedia "project 23900" and you will get an article about the Priboy.
              I am not confused. Confused by customers.
              1. 0
                25 September 2021 15: 09
                Lead designer Zelenodolsk Design Bureau (ZPKB). This project was adopted to replace the supply of French Mistral-type UDCs.

                Some news sources mistakenly refer to this project as "Surf", although it has nothing to do with the previously developed UDC projects at the Nevsky Design Bureau (NKPB) and at the Krylov State Scientific Center (KGNTs).

                https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Универсальные_десантные_корабли_проекта_23900
                1. +1
                  25 September 2021 15: 27
                  It is more convenient for me to write "Priboy" than 23900. But we both know that we are talking about the ship that is being built in Kerch.
                  I already once wrote, as they say, it makes no difference to me. UDC, BDK, command ship or something else. We are talking about two ships with a displacement (unknown), dimensions (unknown), the number of air wings (unknown).

                  In the meantime, we are looking at the data on (so be it) project 23900. When was it laid down? In July 2020 it seems

                  They assessed the readiness of the working design documentation for the UDC as incomplete, at the same time noting the high speed of the ZPKB: "At the same time the documentation will still be corrected, for which it is very likely that one of the largest design bureaus will be attracted in the near future. It is highly possible that it will NPKB"

                  NKPB is the Nevsky Design Bureau. The very thing that the Priboy designed with a displacement of 14 tons. Posted September 000. Two months after the ships were laid.

                  You wrote an article about the flaws of the 23900 project. Basically, the shape of the deck and the superstructure. Does any of what you have written look like this picture? Not to mention the displacement

                  1. 0
                    28 September 2021 17: 56
                    This is a different ship smile
                    1. +1
                      28 September 2021 18: 33
                      So how many times have I written that this is a different project. And he gave the link. So what kind of ship is being built in Kerch? Surf or 23900? And the characteristics of the Surf.

                      Once again I will give a link to the site

                      https://dfnc.ru/katalog-vooruzhenij/boevye-korabli-vmf/udk-pr-23900/

                      It says that DFNC.RU is an information and news resource in the defense industry.


                      A picture - Embedment board of the head universal amphibious assault ship "Ivan Rogov" of project 23900

                      Is it similar to the one that you brought on the layout?
            2. +2
              25 September 2021 13: 45
              https://dfnc.ru/katalog-vooruzhenij/boevye-korabli-vmf/udk-pr-23900/

              Check out this link. This is GosOboronZakaz.
              Three projects are indicated there: "Surf", "Avalanche" and "23900".
              What project does your description fit into? Under the third. A drawing and displacement under the "Surf". When it becomes clear what exactly is being built, then we can talk about who is confusing.
  5. 0
    24 September 2021 20: 02
    Uv. Did the author see real, working drawings, according to which ships are built, or are so many letters written on the basis of layouts drawn on the Internet?))))
    1. -3
      25 September 2021 00: 17
      Quote: TermNachTER
      based on layouts drawn on the Internet?

      this model was made on the basis of the project that the PKB "projected" and which was shown to Putin and other military leaders. Or do you sacredly believe that Putin could be shown anything, let the same plastic model of an aircraft carrier (for example, a British one) bought in a store? Why make models at all, if, in your opinion, everyone in the world en masse then does something completely different? Is this a form of collective perversion?

      A counter question to you: have you seen the working drawings? Can you guarantee that the model does not match them?
      1. -1
        25 September 2021 17: 36
        Quote: Phantom
        this model was made on the basis of the project that the PKB "projected" and which was shown to Putin and other military leaders.

        Why do you think so?
        A little higher colleague Bakht (Bakhtiyar) brought a more believable picture.
        And here is the mortgage:

      2. -1
        7 October 2021 14: 45
        Did not see. And who saw them, except the Kerch shipbuilders? But how much talk about that everything is bad))) what can you understand by looking at the model? it is possible that even the contours of the underwater part of the hull will not be the same as that of the model. I generally keep quiet about the "stuffing")))
  6. 0
    24 September 2021 20: 52
    Why do we need these UDCs at all? Are they consistent with our military doctrine? Where are we going to land?
    This is on the one hand. On the other hand, aviation is always underestimated in the navy. This is generally our disease. The half-wars were underestimated. And then. They would be capable of delivering massive strikes against targets deep behind German lines and the war would proceed according to a different scenario.
    There is no need to get involved in another arms race now. If only you are really going to cut something to the GDP, raise pensions. Attacks, some expenses. Then cut the scrap metal.
    1. 0
      25 September 2021 07: 18
      Why do we need these UDCs at all? Are they consistent with our military doctrine? Where are we going to land?

      Damn, well, they've already explained to you that it's not about the landing at all.
      1. 0
        27 September 2021 10: 08
        Are you seriously? Those. armored vehicles are troops, and aviation off the coast of Africa is a walk.
        All this is a waste of money. Already passed. Twice in the 20th century, aircraft and artillery tanks were massacred.
        The only real way to protect Russia from any enemies - internal and external - is a decent level of well-being of the Russian people. At and above the European average. Well, and guaranteed destruction of any enemy with nuclear weapons.
  7. -1
    25 September 2021 01: 39
    UDC of two types at once - "Wasp" and "America". And these are, without exaggeration, the best universal amphibious assault ships in the world.

    Seryozha, why start your writing with outright lies? Interestingly, well, so to laugh, by what criteria did you rank them as the best?
    Is it because they are American? But what about, for example, Izumo?
    And UDC America has a critical flaw - what you branded in your previous libels - useless and unnecessary missile weapons.
    PS Yes, give Pan Admiral of the Fleet Marzhetsky an aircraft carrier - let the 6th Fleet of Admiral Psaki drive near the shores of Belarus
    1. 0
      25 September 2021 07: 45
      Is it because they are American?

      The Americans created this class of ships, they set the standards and have the largest UDC fleet in the world.

      And UDC America has a critical flaw - what you branded in your previous libels - useless and unnecessary missile weapons.

      I did not brand the rocket weapon, I just pointed out that for its effective use, appropriate target designation is needed. The US Navy has no problems with this, since they have "unnecessary" aircraft carriers with AWACS planes, the Russian Navy has problems with target designation, because, according to people like you, we do not need aircraft carriers and AWACS aircraft. Therefore, the deployment of missile weapons on the UDC America is not a disadvantage, let alone a critical one, rather the opposite.
      PS
      The lampoons are your comments.
    2. -1
      25 September 2021 09: 29
      Quote: Netyn
      But what about, for example, Izumo?

      The Izumo is a fairly small ship with modest capabilities. Even with "Wasp" it is problematic for him

      Quote: Netyn
      And UDC America has a critical flaw - what you branded in your previous libels - useless and unnecessary missile weapons

      On "America" ​​only defensive anti-aircraft missile weapons - SAM ESSM and RAM. What is the problem here? The same "Kuznetsov" was never scolded for the fact that it had "Daggers", "Daggers" and AK-630 - self-defense air defense systems and anti-aircraft guns - this is normal, it should be so. Claims were for the presence of strike anti-ship missile weapons (complex "Granite")
  8. 0
    25 September 2021 07: 15
    Quote: Netyn
    Seryozha, why start your writing with outright lies? Interestingly, well, so to laugh, by what criteria did you rank them as the best?
    Is it because they are American? But what about, for example, Izumo?

    Izumo is a Japanese aircraft carrier disguised as a helicopter destroyer, not a UDC, ignoramus. hi I would laugh at your comments, but not funny at all.

    PS Yes, give Pan Admiral of the Fleet Marzhetsky an aircraft carrier - let the 6th Fleet of Admiral Psaki drive near the shores of Belarus

    Well, give it out. I'll give it to the Russian Navy then.
  9. -1
    25 September 2021 13: 06
    Author Woe FROM MIND
    Let's talk about why they did not provide a cosmodrome on the ship for launching intergalactic rockets ...
    Like when will there be vertical take-off planes "then how?"
    Then it will be necessary to build MODERN ships for that time.
    An attempt to cross a hedgehog and a snake .......
    1. -2
      25 September 2021 15: 05
      not tired of clowning?
      1. -1
        25 September 2021 22: 36
        What is your article about?
        About the fact that the ships of the "opponents" have a different deck?
        And if they built a rectangular deck the size of a stadium, would the ship's combat capability (and bone bone) increase?
  10. +1
    25 September 2021 15: 05
    Quote: Bakht
    Build a Fleet around a single aircraft carrier?
    The main task of the Northern and Pacific Fleets is to deter the enemy and inflict unacceptable damage on him. This task is being solved by underwater strategic missile carriers. And Sevmash is loaded with these orders. All other tasks are secondary.

    not one, but 4, 2 for each fleet. about everything else, I have already written a number of articles,
    SSBNs are not residents without cover from the aircraft carrier surface fleet and simply cannot fulfill their combat missions. and this is the most important part of the Russian nuclear triad. also, without aircraft-carrying ships, it is extremely problematic to search for and destroy enemy nuclear submarines that are preparing to deliver a nuclear strike against Russia, in the area of ​​operation of the enemy's AUG.
    if you are not able to understand such things, then you are stubborn. if you understand, but continue to write a blizzard, then I would say that you are a pest, but you are not even a citizen of Russia, so you are in your right.
    PS

    Russian UDCs can operate only under the cover of base aircraft.

    what the hell is "basic aviation" in the far sea zone? ... aviation in the DMZ should be carried with you on the deck. fool
  11. 0
    28 September 2021 17: 58
    Quote: ALEXANDER VILYANY
    What is your article about?
    About the fact that the ships of the "opponents" have a different deck?
    And if they built a rectangular deck the size of a stadium, would the ship's combat capability (and bone bone) increase?

    Everything is written there
  12. Cat
    0
    26 November 2021 19: 24
    Hmm ... all about the skin of an unkilled bear! Wait ten years, and then we’ll go out.
  13. 0
    16 July 2023 23: 39
    Most likely this is an almost complete copy of the Mistral. That's all. All secrecy is connected with this.

    How long was this udk developed? 2 months? Because they managed to get the design documentation. I bet on it.