"The ugliest ship in the Navy." Are the critics of the 20386 project so fair?


When writing the previous cycle of articlesdevoted to the state of affairs in our Navy (in particular, its surface component), I faced criticism from part of the audience of the concept of the development of the Russian Navy, adopted by the High Naval Command and being implemented by it at the moment.


From their point of view, the High Naval Command completely mistakenly accepted and implemented in the previous period a plan to build a large number of small pennants (in particular, small missile ships of the 3rd rank), equipped with weapons of unprecedented strength - the Kalibr-NK cruise missiles, but at the same time, as they believe, possessing low seaworthiness and completely defenseless against enemy ships and aircraft. Moreover, in their opinion, the command of the fleet, and this seemed not enough, and now it has taken on the construction of completely unnecessary from the point of view of sofa experts multipurpose URO corvettes of the 2nd rank of the far sea zone of project 20386, which they called "useless, expensive and useless troughs" ( or "buckets", then they had a confusion in their assessments). From the point of view of some readers, the old corvettes of projects 20380/20385 of the near sea zone would be enough for us. There is no need, in their opinion, to spend people's money so mediocrely when a promising experimental corvette costs almost 2 times more than the old one (29 billion rubles against 18 billion rubles). With the construction of a series of MRK (small rocket ships) of 30 projects 21631 Buyan-M and 22800 Karakurt, they agreed that it was just a banal and stupid budget cut.

I want to note that even on thematic narrow-profile forums discussing the state of affairs of our Navy, already from the Moreman specialists I had the opportunity to hearthat the High Command of the Fleet hacked the Super-Karakurt project (this is a reinforced version of the Karakurt MRK of project 22800), and it would be very useful for OVR (water area protection) from enemy submarines when deploying our nuclear submarines from the basing areas. Those. here, even from the specialized specialists, I see a lack of understanding of the essence of the problems that the High Command of the Fleet solves, performing the tasks set by the Supreme leadership of the country. This text is intended to close this issue and shed light on the actions of the Kremlin that are illogical and incorrect from the point of view of individual comrades.

Criticism of the project 20386


In principle, I myself, in the preamble to text, dedicated to the new corvette of project 20386, did not hide the fact that its construction caused an ambiguous reaction from narrow-profile military experts, most of whom reacted to the project skeptically... And there were good reasons for that, in their opinion.

Exorbitant price


Firstly, the price of the project is a whole 29 billion rubles, while the old time-tested corvettes of the project 20380 cost almost 2 times cheaper (17-18 billion rubles). Those. instead of one new corvette, it was possible to build two old ones and thereby close all problems in the near sea zone, for which ships of this class were responsible. Let me remind you that the ICR of the 2nd rank BMZ (patrol ship of the near sea zone), which became the prototype for the creation of a new class of ships of the "corvette" type of project 20380, in addition to escort and military-police tasks, also solved the tasks of PLO (anti-submarine defense), i.e. e. the fight against enemy submarines in the areas where our nuclear submarines are deployed when they are deployed to patrol areas. And taking into account the aging of the fleet of MPK (small anti-submarine ships) of the 3rd rank of projects 1124 and 1124M, which are responsible for OVR (protection of the water area), which is available in the Navy, there will soon be no one to perform these tasks.

And this is the honest truth - these workhorses of the Albatross project honestly have served since Soviet times, but everything comes to an end. The Albatross project has exhausted itself, it cannot be upgraded due to the lack of modernization displacement reserves, but must only be disposed of as the resource is depleted and replaced. But the trouble is that there is nothing to change them. And it is necessary to change 22 ships, which are currently in service in three fleets (Northern Fleet, Pacific Fleet and Black Sea Fleet). And here the corvettes of project 20380 would come in very handy, which, according to military experts, is being rolled up to please the new project 20386, which, in their opinion, is, if not a crime, then a mistake.

But the mistake of our experts is that they operate with outdated data - according to my data, as of the current moment, no one refuses project 20380. Three buildings are under construction at different stages of completion. Another 10 buildings have been contracted for construction at two plants (the Severnaya Verf Shipyard and the Amur Shipyard) by the RF Ministry of Defense. And this is not counting one under construction and 6 contracted hulls of a more powerful armament and displacement project 20385. If we add up, we get the 20 ships of the near sea zone necessary for the fleet. But no, our experts are haunted by the pilot project 20386, which is generally designed to solve completely different problems in the distant sea and oceanic zones.

At the same time, in this matter, the price is not at all a defining characteristic. It is clear that the lead model of the series is much more expensive than the serial one (even our enemies in their wonderful series of 4th generation destroyers of the Arleigh Burke type, which have undergone 4 modifications, the lead destroyer in the sub-series costs half a billion dollars more than the serial one - 2,2 billion. dollars against 1,7 billion). And everything depends on the filling of the product, it is clear that the new filling a priori cannot be cheaper than the old one, since it is based on a new technological base. How can you compare incomparable things - white and fluffy, when the ship is initially planned to solve completely different tasks and is intended to become a testing ground for running in and testing new weapons and technological solutions. If we always and in everything listened to our respected experts, we would still sail.

Weak armament


The second reason that kept our experts awake was the armament of the project. Let's listen to their arguments:

Despite a significant increase in displacement (from projects 20380 and 20385), the new "innovative" project 20386 has lost the "Caliber" complex (normally installed on the project 20385). The use of "Caliber" is possible only with the planned "container-modular" launcher, temporarily installed instead of the helicopter (!) And with a reduction in ammunition by half from the 20385 project. "Zarya" and replacing it with an older one and with worse performance characteristics of GAS MG-335M). Given the importance of anti-submarine missions, incl. to ensure the deployment of NSNF, such a weakening of the armament of the "promising" corvette of project 20386 has no reasonable explanations (especially given its significantly increased displacement and cost).

I will immediately explain for the uninitiated what the term NSNF means - these are naval forces of nuclear deterrence, here we are specifically talking about our strategic nuclear submarines (SSBNs and SSBNs), whose deployment from bases should cover the IPC (small anti-submarine ships) of the 3rd rank and the ICR of the 2nd rank BMZ (patrolmen of the near sea zone), which should replace them.

Now specifically on the claims. Yes, indeed, the displacement of project 20386 increased by almost 1000 tons (3400 tons versus 2250/2430 tons on projects 20380/20385, respectively). But regarding the composition of the armament, I have somewhat different data. As of January 2020, Almaz Central Design Bureau provided updated performance characteristics of products. Fixed one of the main drawbacks of the project - weak shock weapons. Now, instead of the 3S24 Uranium anti-ship missile system, the ship is nominally equipped with two vertical launch units UVP 3S14, mounted on the bow of the ship and designed for the entire family of sea-based missiles in our arsenal - from the cruise “Caliber-NK” to the supersonic anti-ship “Onyx”, and in the future and hypersonic "Zircons". At the same time, the "Redut" air defense missile systems also remain on the nose. For this, the ship had to be lengthened by another couple of meters (109 meters versus 106,3 meters on project 20385), and in order to avoid trim on the bow and loss of seaworthiness, they added both from the bow and from the stern at the same time. The removable containerized missile module for operational and tactical purposes ("Caliber-NK" for 4 missiles) has not gone anywhere either, which further enhances the ship's striking power. At the same time, no one refuses the helicopter. The helicopter is planned to be stored in a below-deck hangar equipped with a vertical helicopter lift, which allows freeing the upper deck for lifting and moving modular containers.

Regarding the used GAS, according to my information, there are two configuration options. The first one - 1 x SJC "Minotavr-ISPN-M" with a subkeeping antenna based on MGK-335EM-03 + 1 x SAC "Vignette-EM". The second - 1 x GAS "Zarya-M" + 1 x GAS "Vignette-EM". At the same time, a flexible extended towed antenna of an integrated underwater surveillance system with a launching device mounted on an integrated frame (GAS "Vignette") is part of the temporarily installed modular equipment, which allows, if necessary, to enhance the ship's PLO capabilities. For project 20386, both configuration options are possible.

I, of course, am not a hydroacoustician and not a PLO specialist, like our respected experts, but here is what the manufacturer himself writes about the capabilities of the system:

As expected, the patrol ship of the far sea zone will be equipped with the most modern and sensitive hydroacoustic systems developed by JSC Concern Okeanpribor. The corvettes will be armed with 3 hydroacoustic systems for various purposes at once: low-frequency active-passive GAS "Vignette-EM" for detecting noise-emitting sources (submarine, surface ship) in the first and second distant zones of acoustic illumination (35-140 km), GAK MGK- 335EM-03 for detecting underwater targets in the near zone of acoustic illumination (3-5 km, also 5-12 km) with the establishment of hydroacoustic and telecode communication in order to identify or warn the crew of the detected object, GAS "Pallada" to detect underwater swimmers-saboteurs in close proximity to the ship (up to 0,5 km).

As you can see, everything with the exception of GAS "Pallada" is present on project 20386, the keel hydroacoustic station is stationary - for work in BMZ, and the corvette towed GAS "Vignette-EM" will be equipped as needed - for work (in DMZ and OZ) on long trips ... So the experts' claims on the part of weapons were in vain.

Awkward power plant that does not meet the tasks facing the ship


The following claims were already against the power plant:

In view of the new type of the main power plant of the corvette 20386 (gas turbine with partial electric motion), not only technical de-uniformity with other ships of the near zone, but their joint use for their intended purpose is also significantly complicated. At the same time, partial electromotion gives little, because the power of the electric motors on the project 20386 is small for an effective search run (about 18 knots), and the inevitable transition to turbines dramatically increases noise, operating costs and reduces the cruising range.

For those who are not in the know, I will remind the ship's power plant is a combined gas turbine unit with partial electric propulsion as part of two M90FR gas turbine engines with a capacity of 27500 hp. (made by NPO "ODK-Saturn") and two electric motors ADR-1600V with a capacity of 2200 hp. (manufactured by JSC Power Machines), which transmit torque to two shafts and two variable pitch propellers (CPP) through the 6РП gear unit and the inter-gear transmission (manufactured by PJSC Zvezda).

For some reason, our experts did not note the fact that variable pitch propellers (CPP) were installed on project 20386, while fixed pitch propellers (CPP) were installed on projects 20380/20385. Knowledgeable people will understand what this gives the ship. And what choice did the designers have? The dimensions and displacement of the ship increased, the mass also increased, and the old Kolomna diesel engines, standing on the previous projects 20380/20385, could no longer cope with the increased requirements to maintain the required speed of the ship, the experts proposed to force them. But for the project 20385, the Kolomna diesel engine was already forced. Its capabilities have been exhausted on this, the Kolomans then had to create a new, more powerful diesel engine. This also takes time. The developers chose a different path - they put on the ship a Rybinsk-made gas turbine M90FR, which UEC-Saturn had developed for heavy frigates of Project 22350 (especially for the newly built Mercury of Project 20386, all Project 22350 “admirals” were shifted to the right, except for Admiral Golovko ", Which received its GTEs from Rybinsky Prospect in the first place - in December 2020). What's a bad decision? And why not try it out on a prototype before putting it into production?

Do not forget that the project 20386, according to the TK, was designed to work in the distant sea and oceanic zones, and it was this circumstance that did not allow the use for these purposes of the diesel-diesel unit DDA-12000 of Kolomna Prospect, standing on previous projects, with all its advantages ... For those who have forgotten, I will remind you that all the advantages of a diesel power plant were crossed out by its only drawback - the unreliability of the power plant, which, for all its efficiency, low weight and low noise (and as a consequence of stealth in the hydroacoustic range) still did not allow the ship to be used in the far sea zone.

For your information:: On both projects - and 20380, and 20385, there were two diesel units DDA-12000 produced by JSC "Kolomna Machine Building Plant". For the 20380 project, 4 diesel engines 10D49 with a capacity of 5200 hp were used for this. (two for each unit), which transmitted torque to two shafts with fixed-pitch propellers through the reverse-reduction gears of the RRD 12000 produced by PJSC "Zvezda" (St. Petersburg). In 20385, 4 diesel engines 16D49 with a capacity of 6000 hp were used for this. from the same manufacturer.

Both Kolomna diesel engines - the 10D49 and its uprated counterpart 16D49, are excellent, time-tested economical cars, but very sensitive to operating conditions, and therefore are frequent customers of repair plants, from which they cannot sail far. A fresh example of this is the service and combat activity of the lead ship of the project 20380 corvette "Guarding", on which both of its medium-speed diesel engines 10D49 of the main power plant broke down twice during this time.

Therefore, I believe that all claims to the power plant are far-fetched, stemming from a misunderstanding of why this ship was created. And it was created to replace the obsolete light frigates of project 11356R as a universal multipurpose multipurpose ship URO of the 2nd rank for work in the distant sea and oceanic zones. And its experts are judged on the basis of the tasks assigned to the ASW ships of the near sea zone (and the experts themselves, in particular Maxim Klimov, anti-submarine warriors, hence the blinkeredness on ASW problems).

I have to put an end to this, I have analyzed the main complaints about the project 20386, conclusions and debriefing, who is to blame for this situation, I will make in the next article. Not saying goodbye.
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  1. 2534 Offline 2534
    2534 April 9 2021 10: 07
    0
    1.
    Moreover, in their opinion, the command of the fleet did not seem to be enough, and now it has taken up the construction of completely unnecessary from the point of view of sofa experts multipurpose URO corvettes of the 2nd rank of the far sea zone of project 20386

    As for the command of the Navy, their "movements of the sirloin" were exhaustively analyzed in the articles of me (Klimov) and Timokhin on "Voennoye Obozreniye" + an insider at the Air Base how this AFERA ​​generally began (TTZ for the project was first signed by Chirkov, and ALREADY it was seen by specialists from the Central Research Institute of VK)

    2.
    From the point of view of some readers, the old corvettes of projects 20380/20385 of the near sea zone would be enough for us.

    there was no talk about "old projects", because the question of their DISADVANTAGES was strictly raised
    it was about the MASS SERIES OF REFINED corvettes of projects 20380 (20385)
    with ELIMINATION OF THEIR DISADVANTAGES

    3.
    a promising experimental corvette costs almost 2 times more than the old one (29 billion rubles against 18 billion rubles).

    the point is not that the announced price tag from the plant (that is, it does not include the entire volume of R&D), but the fact that the "PORK" of the Navy for this project has led to the fact that it is now "ruled by Bulgarians" trying to give at least some decent look "
    acc. its price tag "flew up" (from the previously announced 30 billion)

    4.
    With the construction of a series of MRK (small rocket ships) of 30 projects 21631 Buyan-M and 22800 Karakurt, they agreed that it was just a banal and stupid budget cut.

    in short - these are the inventions of Monsieur Volkonsky personally
  2. 2534 Offline 2534
    2534 April 9 2021 10: 19
    +1
    5.
    I want to note that even at thematic narrow-profile forums discussing the state of affairs of our Navy, I already heard from the Moreman specialists that the High Command of the Fleet hacked the Super-Karakurt project (this is a corvette-reinforced version of the Karakurt MRK of project 22800), and he would be very useful for OVR (water area protection) from enemy submarines when deploying our nuclear submarines from basing areas. Those. here, even from specialized specialists, I see a lack of understanding of the essence of the problems that the High Command of the Fleet solves, performing the tasks set by the Supreme leadership of the country.

    given the absolute incompetence of Monsieur Volkonsky (and, to put it mildly, his penchant for conspiracy theories (for example, about the alleged "sale of corvettes") and just LIES), such statements cause just a smile

    6.
    ... Let me remind you that the ICR of the 2nd rank BMZ (patrol ship of the near sea zone), which became the prototype for the creation of a new class of ships of the "corvette" type of project 20380, in addition to escort and military-police tasks, also solved

    another fantasy of Volkonsky, which has nothing to do with reality

    7.
    The Albatross project has exhausted itself, it cannot be upgraded due to the lack of modernization displacement reserves

    Even simply replacing the "old weapon" with a new one gives a significant required reserve of weights and stability for the "new reincarnation of the project". What should be changed is the not very good contours of the hull. Well, the trouble of the changed regulatory framework (from which today it is impossible to "reproduce the old 1124" legally)
    And it WAS WORKED - a new "little Cheetah" (the so-called "blackjack").
    However, the project was "buried" by intrigues.

    8.
    ... But the trouble is that there is nothing to change them. And you need to change 22 ships

    And the reason for this is that in 2013 Chirkov "nailed" the project of the OVR mass corvette in favor of the NON-EXISTING BGAS and AFER types 20386 and 22160.
  3. 2534 Offline 2534
    2534 April 9 2021 10: 37
    0
    9.
    And here the corvettes of project 20380 would come in very handy, which, according to military experts, is being rolled up to please the new project 20386, which is, in their opinion, if not a crime, then a mistake.
    But the mistake of our experts is that they operate with outdated data - according to my information,
    as of the current moment, no one refuses project 20380. Three buildings are under construction at different stages of completion. Another 10 buildings were contracted for construction at two plants (Shipyard Severnaya Verf and Amur Shipyard) by the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation


    We look at publications (mine and Timokhina) and DATES
    for example "Corvette 20386. Continuation of the scam" March 20 2019 https://topwar.ru/155697-korvet-20386-prodolzhenie-afery.html
    For the sake of project 20386, the laying of the industrialized corvettes of projects 20380 and 20385 has already been stopped, and this will have very serious consequences for the fleet and industry in the coming years.
    and a number of other articles and non-public documents.
    And the factor of "public flogging" in the media + the demands of the Pacific Fleet command to update the ship's personnel and eventually led to the order of a new series of corvettes, but this happened AFTER the harsh raising of these questions in the media.
    cm. -
    "Victory of common sense: corvettes are back! Bye for the Pacific" August 13, 2020 https://topwar.ru/174057-pobeda-zdravogo-smysla-korvety-vozvraschajutsja-poka-dlja-tihookeancev.html
    and "Corvettes that will go into battle" August 17, 2020 https://topwar.ru/174174-korvety-kotorye-pojdut-v-boj.html

    10.
    our experts are haunted by the pilot project 20386, which is generally designed to solve completely different problems in the distant sea and oceanic zones.
    In this case, in this matter, price is not a defining characteristic at all. It is clear that the head sample of the series is much more expensive than the serial one.


    a) the indicated 30 billion for the head 20386 is the FACTORY price (since you need to add a bunch of R&D work), and it has long since "grown old" (the price tag has gone "sharply up")
    b) 20386 frankly climbs into the FREGATE niche (and the "pre-armed" UKSK practically equaled in D with project 22350), and ZAVEDOMO "runs across the road" and selects a series from our best project - 22350 (equal to it in price, but many times superior in combat effectiveness)
    c) there are so many "jambs" of the head that its price tag - taking into account "yesterday" the obvious need to refine and strengthen the serial ones, there will be LESS of them

    11.
    The second reason that kept our experts awake was related to the weapons of the project. Let's listen to their arguments ... Yes, indeed, the displacement of project 20386 increased by almost 1000 tons (3400 tons versus 2250/2430 tons on projects 20380/20385, respectively). But regarding the composition of the armament, I have somewhat different data. As of January 2020, Almaz Central Design Bureau provided updated performance characteristics of products. Fixed one of the main drawbacks of the project - weak shock weapons. Now, instead of the 3S24 "Uranus" anti-ship missile system, the ship is equipped with two vertical launch units UVP 3S14 ...

    Monsieur Volkonsky, in decent places it is customary to GIVE A LINK to a quote. YOU didn't bring it precisely because anyone who passed through it would immediately see YOUR LIE - this is the first thing.
    And the second - the ACHINEA written by YOU speaks only of YOUR absolute incompetence. Yes, in the "new versions 20386" UKSK appeared. BUT with a CORRESPONDING INCREASE IN DISPLACEMENT (AND COST). Accordingly, YOUR statements about 3400 tons for "reinforced 20386" are FALSE

    12.
    The helicopter is planned to be stored in a below-deck hangar equipped with a vertical helicopter lift, which allows freeing the upper deck for lifting and moving modular containers.

    see the graphics of the Almaz Central Design Bureau -


  4. Netyn Offline Netyn
    Netyn (Netyn) April 9 2021 10: 43
    +1
    Quote: 2534
    This is another illiterate and absolutely incompetent opus by Mr. Volkonsky

    Totally agree
  5. 2534 Offline 2534
    2534 April 9 2021 10: 46
    +2
    13.
    I, of course, am not a hydroacoustician and not a PLO specialist, like our esteemed experts, but here is what the manufacturer himself writes about the capabilities of the system: As expected, the patrol ship of the far sea zone will be equipped with the most modern and sensitive hydroacoustic systems developed by Concern JSC Oceanpribor ".

    An extremely simple question from a "professional anti-submarine";) - WHAT HINDERS the "long" modification of the Minotaur to put on the corvettes 20380 (5) ??? NOTHING!
    everything except GAS "Pallada" is present on project 20386, the keel hydroacoustic station is stationary - for work in BMZ, and the corvette towed GAS "Vignette-EM" will be equipped as needed - for work (in DMZ and OZ) on long trips. So the experts' claims on the part of weapons were in vain.
    Volkonsky, do YOU ​​generally understand what kind of trash you are talking about?
    And in the near zone, the ship does not "need" BUGAS?!?!

    14.
    For some reason, our experts did not note the fact that variable pitch propellers (CPP) were installed on project 20386, while fixed pitch propellers (CPP) were installed on projects 20380/20385. Knowledgeable people will understand what this gives the ship.

    Volkonsky, YOU do not belong to the "knowledgeable" from the word ABSOLUTELY.
    As for "what the CPP gives" - then for the BATTLE characteristics - practically nothing (if it does not reduce them at all), the CPP gives a lot for the OPERATIONAL ones. However, the emphasis in the articles of Klimov and Timokhin was on COMBAT CHARACTERISTICS and OPPORTUNITIES (for obvious reasons)

    15.
    And what choice did the designers have? The dimensions and displacement of the ship increased, the mass also increased, and the old Kolomna diesel engines, standing on the previous projects 20380/20385, could no longer cope ... The developers went the other way - they put a gas turbine on the ship

    An extremely simple question - why was it necessary to INFLATE THE DISCHARGE, COST (while SLAMMING SERIAL)?!?!? Despite the fact that even 1000-1300 tons of displacement is ENOUGH to "pack" an effective OVR corvette (which was clearly shown by the elaboration of "blackjack" and "universal Karakurt")
  6. 2534 Offline 2534
    2534 April 9 2021 10: 51
    +2
    16.
    Do not forget that the project 20386 was designed according to the TK for work in distant marine and oceanic zones, and It was precisely this circumstance that did not allow the use of diesel-diesel unit DDA-12000 of Kolomna Prospect for these purposesstanding on past projects, with all its advantages

    See the number of trips of our corvettes to the Atlantic and Indian Ocean. Successful hikes!

    17.
    For those who have forgotten, I will remind you that all the advantages of a diesel power plant were crossed out by its only drawback - the unreliability of the power plant, which, for all its efficiency, low weight and low noise (and as a consequence of stealth in the hydroacoustic range) still did not allow the ship to be used in the far sea zone.

    "Childhood diseases" of Kolomna diesel engines were overcome long ago. Corvettes walk confidently, incl. to the ocean zone.

    18.
    I have to put an end to this, I have analyzed the main complaints about the project 20386, conclusions and debriefing, who is to blame for this situation, I will make in the next article. Not saying goodbye

    PS Not only the absolute incompetence and tendentiousness of the author Volkonsky is obvious, but also his tendency to outright LIE. Literally ALL "proofs" (in quotes) and Volkonsky's theses turn out to be a banal LIE
  7. Sergey Latyshev Offline Sergey Latyshev
    Sergey Latyshev (Serge) April 9 2021 11: 40
    +2
    Just yesterday I saw articles about corvettes on VO. Free retelling?
    1. 2534 Offline 2534
      2534 April 9 2021 12: 11
      +1
      Quote: Sergey Latyshev
      Just yesterday I saw articles about corvettes on VO. Free retelling?

      taking into account how "bombed" angry my articles and Temohin apparently appeared ORDER for advertising wassat PROJECT 20386 belay
      only now the performers are very "crooked" caught ... lol
      1. Scharnhorst Offline Scharnhorst
        Scharnhorst (Scharnhorst) April 13 2021 13: 09
        0
        The 18 points of comments contain the same unconstructive criticism as the toothless arguments of the author of the article. I would like to hear detailed arguments about and counter propellers with a fixed pitch and CPP in the specifics of pr.20386 with links to authorities. The author and the opponent have discredited each other enough and do not inspire confidence.
    2. Volkonsky Offline Volkonsky
      Volkonsky (Wolf) April 9 2021 18: 12
      0
      Just yesterday I saw articles about corvettes on VO. Free retelling?

      pozhalsta link, or again a duck?
      1. Sergey Latyshev Offline Sergey Latyshev
        Sergey Latyshev (Serge) April 9 2021 19: 32
        0
        Corvette 20380 or 20386? Results of the discussion on the effectiveness of air defense!
        Yesterday, 10: 00

        From the series "What are we building - corvettes or flag demonstrators?"

        Technical descent: Project 20386 Corvette was removed from the boathouse
        April 7 2021
        etc.

        "You see the gopher .... and he is." But some ducks are closer ...
        1. Volkonsky Offline Volkonsky
          Volkonsky (Wolf) April 9 2021 20: 00
          0
          I have not read these articles, which means that I had nothing to retell, the fact that they coincided in the days of publication is nothing more than an accident
          1. Sergey Latyshev Offline Sergey Latyshev
            Sergey Latyshev (Serge) April 10 2021 06: 09
            +1
            duck again ...
        2. 123 Offline 123
          123 (123) April 11 2021 12: 49
          0
          Technical descent: Project 20386 Corvette was removed from the boathouse
          April 7 2021
          etc.

          They don't seem to be lying. They rolled it out, though one building. Like a photo of him.

          1. Sergey Latyshev Offline Sergey Latyshev
            Sergey Latyshev (Serge) April 11 2021 17: 23
            0
            This is the title of the article. There are also pictures
            And then there is a bit of a variety of information and reasoning.
  8. Tektor Offline Tektor
    Tektor (Tektor) April 9 2021 12: 06
    -3
    I absolutely agree with Vladimir Volkonsky: the modified 20386 with the Vignette-EM GAS, with two UVP 3S14 vertical launch units installed on the bow of the ship, with the Zaslon radar is a full-fledged combat unit of a semi-frigate with the necessary air defense characteristics. Compared to 20380 and 20385, this is heaven and earth. Naturally, Mercury completely overshadows these projects of under-corvettes, which are not able to hold out in battle for more than a few minutes, and makes their production meaningless. No wonder the Americans recognized the design and combat capabilities of the project 20386 as reference for this class of ships ...
    1. 2534 Offline 2534
      2534 April 9 2021 12: 26
      +1
      Quote: Tektor
      I absolutely agree with Vladimir Volkonsky: modified 20386 with the Vignette-EM GAS, with two UVP 3S14 vertical launch units installed on the bow of the ship,

      and the price tag is MORE THAN project 22350 frigate

      Quote: Tektor
      with radar "Zaslon" is a full-fledged combat unit of a semi-frigate providing the necessary characteristics of air defense.

      and "Zaslon" really knocks down?!?!
      For the time being misses (for which (and misses in other topics) his "horns and hooves" in the OPK of Peter began to be called Zats)
      On "Aldar" - he has a FULL OBSER, "bird" as it flew - and flew away
      On the "Thundering" because of the KOSYAKS of the "Barrier" from the NLC, the target was "lifted" by 100 meters,


      - and then they fired so that the MF-RLK "Barrier" COULD NOT BE TURNED ON AT ALL, and so they were preparing to shoot - evidence of which is the REMOTE target on the BIUS IC screen


      Quote: Tektor
      No wonder the Americans recognized the design and combat capabilities of the project 20386 as reference for this class of ships ...

      fool
      or is it "just such a training manual" ????
      rather the last ...
      1. 123 Offline 123
        123 (123) April 11 2021 12: 54
        +1
        and the price tag is MORE THAN project 22350 frigate

        And what is the price tag for the head 22350? How many years it was built.
        This is not a serial ship, is it normal to compare it with serial ones?
    2. 2534 Offline 2534
      2534 April 9 2021 17: 52
      0
      Quote: Tektor
      Compared to 20380 and 20385, this is heaven and earth. Naturally, Mercury completely overshadows these subcorvette projects,

      fool
      trampoline from diligence do not tear, Monsieur Volkonsky lol
      1. Volkonsky Offline Volkonsky
        Volkonsky (Wolf) April 9 2021 18: 24
        -2
        Uncle, look, who are you talking to here? I'm not going to answer you at all (learn to behave yourself at first), you communicate with Tector

        By the way, I did not call you a sofa expert at all, but other readers, the fact that you are a military pensioner, I know, as well as in what rank you went for demobilization (apparently, this is the reason for all your problems, they did not serve, that captri is bad , who does not dream of becoming a caperang).

        By the way, your article on VO came out before the strengthening of the armament of Mercury, so you might not know this, and I am not putting this in your claim. And in general, the article is torn into 4 parts, it is stupid to answer under the first one, all your claims are broken down in the following. And for the future - choose expressions, comrade. captri, you will be rude to the younger in rank and age
        1. 2534 Offline 2534
          2534 April 9 2021 18: 33
          0
          Quote: Volkonsky
          you communicate with Tektor

          ok, missed

          Quote: Volkonsky
          I'm not going to answer you at all

          and you have NOTHING to answer
          except for the deliberately rotten "links" to fakes

          Quote: Volkonsky
          learn to behave yourself first

          monsieur, come to the mirror

          Can you tell me why neither I nor Timokhin have ANY "hacky" article? And YOU just don't get out of it! "Purely for reference" is not only the author's disrespect for himself, but also for the readers.

          Quote: Volkonsky
          apparently, this is the reason for all your problems, you have not served, the captri who does not dream of becoming a caprang is bad


          Quote: Volkonsky
          the article on VO came out before the strengthening of the armament of Mercury, so you might not know this

          what I know - YOU do not concern

          Quote: Volkonsky
          I am not making a claim to you.

          fool
          still some kind of storyteller For .. sorry Volkonsky it "put in a claim"

          Quote: Volkonsky
          all your claims are broken down in the following.

          YOU just BEATED in the comments - both for nonsense in the text and for LIE

          Quote: Volkonsky
          you will be rude to the junior in rank

          "real colonel" wassat - so in which troops do such "senior in rank" appear? belay "sing birdie do not be ashamed" about yourself lol
  9. 2534 Offline 2534
    2534 April 9 2021 12: 09
    0
    And it was created to replace the obsolete light frigates of the 11356R project as a universal multipurpose multipurpose ship of the URO of the 2nd rank for operation in the distant sea and oceanic zones. And its experts are judged on the basis of the tasks assigned to the ASW ships of the near sea zone (and the experts themselves, in particular Maxim Klimov, anti-submarine warriors, hence the blinkeredness on ASW problems).

    1. frigates 11356 still serve and serve (a couple of decades!), While the project number does not officially have any letter "P"
    2. According to PLO it is said, and it is exhaustive. However, unlike ACHINEA wassat Volkonsky that JACOBS "Redoubt is a marine S-400" fool the largest POPA of projects 20380 (5) is just the air defense, - which was repeatedly and in detail analyzed in articles (me and Timokhin)
    3. As for the "blinkeredness", it is just at Monsieur Volkonsky on OOLTELY LIES
  10. The comment was deleted.
    1. Volkonsky Offline Volkonsky
      Volkonsky (Wolf) April 9 2021 18: 39
      -2
      I am not deleting anyone here at all, and I am not complaining about anyone, the editor-in-chief said - I don’t like it, don’t read it! so I don’t read! SAM Redoubt - a chilled version of the S-350, which is the prototype of the S-400

      1. frigates 11356 still serve and serve (a couple of decades!), While the project number does not officially have any letter "P"

      https://flotprom.ru/2019/%D0%92%D0%BC%D1%8412/
      and no one says that they will not serve, they will, only they will not lay new ones (God forbid, Kornilov should be completed and equipped with engines)

      The frigate of project 11356R (letter “P” means “Russian”) was developed by the Northern Design Bureau on the basis of the export project of the frigate for the Indian Navy project 11356 of the Talvar type for the accelerated replenishment of the ship composition of the Black Sea Fleet of the Russian Navy, due to the delay in construction series of frigates of project 22350 of the "Admiral Gorshkov" type.

      infa from the developer's site!
      1. 2534 Offline 2534
        2534 April 9 2021 18: 45
        0
        Quote: Volkonsky
        SAM Redoubt - a chilled version of the S-350, which is the prototype of the S-400

        I’m this joke wassat I won’t even comment lol
        YOU have that "google on coupons"? or YOU are stupidly too lazy to even google CHRONOLOGY for these complexes ????

        Quote: Volkonsky
        The frigate of project 11356R (letter “P” means “Russian”) was developed by the Northern Design Bureau on the basis of the export project of the frigate for the Indian Navy project 11356 of the Talvar type for the accelerated replenishment of the ship composition of the Black Sea Fleet of the Russian Navy, due to the delay in construction series of frigates of project 22350 of the "Admiral Gorshkov" type.
        infa from the developer's site!

        Monsieur, I don’t need murzilkas.
        For I know more than the history of the appearance of "our" 11356 - I was close (and even argued about this project) with GA Suchkov, who raised this issue. And the situation there was such that even the complexes in the non-tropical version were replaced there just at the last moment (the ordering structures caught on well!).
        IN THE DOCUMENTATION, there is no "11356R".
        Sometimes found in CORRESPONDENCE
        1. Volkonsky Offline Volkonsky
          Volkonsky (Wolf) April 9 2021 18: 51
          -1
          In the 1990s, the Almaz Central Design Bureau began work on the new S-400 Triumph air defense system, which was intended to replace various modifications of the S-300 air defense system in the air defense forces. The new complex was supposed to use all the missile modifications used in the S-300, as well as the 9M96 and 9M96M missiles specially created for the new Fakel ICB complex.
          On the basis of 9M96, a new ground-based air defense system S-350 "Vityaz" was created, and on the basis of the latter - the shipborne air defense system "Poliment / Redut" with the same types of missiles.
          Information about the new air defense missile system first appeared after the laying of the Project 1997 patrol ship Novik in 12441. In the bow of the superstructure, in front of the navigation bridge, it was planned to install 4 vertical launch modules, 8 missiles each. However, the adoption of the S-400 complex was delayed until 2007, the Novik was left without an air defense system and was not completed (it is supposed to be rebuilt into a training ship until 2015).
          The Redut air defense system was also planned to be installed on the new corvettes of the 20380 project, however, due to the unavailability of the rocket, the lead ship entered service with the Kortik missile and artillery complex, and the Redut air defense system is installed on subsequent ships of the series (projects 20380, 20385). The same air defense missile system with a large number of UVP modules is installed on new frigates of project 22350.
          1. 2534 Offline 2534
            2534 April 9 2021 19: 02
            0
            Monsieur Volkonsky, this is YOUR "link" wassat not even a "murzilka" wassat but just a YELLOW CLEANER
            At your leisure, ask what kind of "DRAIN TANK" wassatand what is its "level" lol
            1. Volkonsky Offline Volkonsky
              Volkonsky (Wolf) April 9 2021 19: 06
              0
              Leonid Karjakin Soviet and Russian Air Defense Systems of the Navy - Arsenal, 2010, No. 4, p. 70-83.
              1. 2534 Offline 2534
                2534 April 9 2021 19: 15
                +2
                Quote: Volkonsky
                Leonid Karjakin Soviet and Russian Air Defense Systems of the Navy - Arsenal, 2010, No. 4, p. 70-83.

                96 SAM originally REDUTOVSKAYA (and POLYMENT-REDUTOVSKAYA)
                in the 90s, they began to develop it and on the S-400, which appeared in general in the late 2000s (this is a well-known FACT)
                REDUT for corvettes - something that was "blinded on the knee" in the 2000s, posing as an air defense system (in fact, there is no air defense system THERE!)
                P-R really only started in the mid-2010s
                and VITYAZ - STILL LATER!
                and these are PUBLIC FACTS!

                Tell me, Volkonsky, are YOU capable of thinking at all?
  11. 2534 Offline 2534
    2534 April 9 2021 19: 25
    +1
    Quote: Volkonsky
    Leonid Karjakin Soviet and Russian air defense systems of the Navy - Arsenal, 2010,

    By the way, I probably shouldn't have hit Karjakin
    article 2010 of the yearwhen there were no special OPEN details about Redoubt or Vityaz
    but 11 years have passed since then !!! apparently since then the author Volkonsky's "Google" has "broken" fool
  12. unholyknight Offline unholyknight
    unholyknight (UnhloyKnight) April 9 2021 19: 26
    -2
    You can look forever at three things - how the quotes on the stock exchange change, how Ukrainians dream of the return of the Crimea, and how it is blown up under the chair at the Torpedo.
  13. Polente the Wanderer April 9 2021 21: 26
    0
    What a hell, what a radish. 2534 = mina and the wolf seem to represent two different commercial structures promoting their interests.
    But neither one nor the other is even trying to reveal why our corvette takes longer to build than destroyers in China or the United States.
    There is a division, including places on the pages of this publishing house. Whoever wins will express his thoughts, considering them the only true ...
    And who of the commentators is dissatisfied or simply asks unfavorable questions, then to their nail ...
    One is like a captain of the 3rd rank in reserve (why in reserve? After all, there are a lot of plans, at least for the rear admiral), the other is not clear.
    If we had a lot of extra money, then let them embody their fantasies. But the financial resources allocated to the fleet are not unlimited and they must be allocated competently, and not scattered.
    1. 2534 Offline 2534
      2534 April 9 2021 21: 37
      0
      Quote: Wanderer Polente
      What a hell, what a radish. 2534 = mina and the wolf seem to represent two different commercial structures promoting their interests.

      Monsieur, are you surely able to answer for your long tongue? And call this JACOB "the commercial structure I represent"? And of course this is "JUSTIFY"?
      WE ARE WAITING

      Quote: Wanderer Polente
      But neither one nor the other is even trying to reveal why our corvette takes longer to build than destroyers in China or the United States.

      Musier, unlike Volkonsky, I have a number of PROFESSIONAL articles, and not only in VO.

      Quote: Wanderer Polente
      If we had a lot of extra money, then let them embody their fantasies. But the financial resources allocated to the fleet are not unlimited and they must be allocated competently, and not scattered.

      they are just RATS.
      Our Navy was stupidly turned into an OVTSU which SHARP.
      And 20386 is one example of this.
  14. Polente the Wanderer April 9 2021 21: 39
    +2
    Where are the comments, opinions of the Navy (acting, albeit incognito if the chain of command does not allow, captains, admirals)?
    Where is the official decision why preference is given to this or that ship project?
    Where are the plans for the release of ships of different categories with justifications?
    1. Volkonsky Offline Volkonsky
      Volkonsky (Wolf) April 9 2021 23: 58
      +4
      sw. Wanderer, unlike a retired major who has read Krylov's fables (his beloved "Pug and the Elephant"), I am trying to figure out this situation and I do not go over to the individual. This is only part 1 of a series of articles, in the following I have tried to answer your questions.

      At the same time, uninitiated people may get the impression that the major is right, because he operates with technical details that many do not know and are not required to know. But when you give him arguments that refute his statements, he immediately declares that this is a murzilka, bullshit. At the same time, under the murzilka there may be a signature of the head of the shipbuilding, armament and operation of the Navy Rear Admiral Tryapichnikov or the main developer of the project, he does not care.

      He then rolled a cart longer than all my text. But apart from the capslog, nothing stood out. Agree that not everyone will write letters to the Minister of Defense. Here it is as if the unsatisfied ambitions and the complex of a retired major, whose diligence was not appreciated at the time. At the same time, I do not believe that in our top command personnel of the Navy all angels, there are also enough grabbers and freaks. But I'm just for objectivity. In these texts, I only tried to object with links to primary sources. There are other authors on the Military Review, Timokhin, for example, I wrote this text in response to him, 2534 Klimov refers to it, but Timokhin has the politeness not to go into someone else's garden, although he also has something to say
      1. 2534 Offline 2534
        2534 April 10 2021 09: 50
        -1
        Quote: Volkonsky
        trying to figure out this situation

        "stewardess dug up by YOU" wassat with the long-standing FAKE about the alleged "supply of corvettes to Algeria" is it called "sorting it out"?!?!?
        And YOUR JUICE about the alleged "breaking diesels" of corvettes that have been confidently going into the ocean for 6 years, what's this? Are Volkonsky's "coupons for google" out of stock?

        Quote: Volkonsky
        But when you give him arguments that refute his statements

        where are the ARGUMENTS "refuting" ????
        Volkonsky, DO YOU AT LEAST one lead?
        Nonsense like "Redoubt based on Vityaz" - do not offer, with this to a psychiatrist - by belonging

        Quote: Volkonsky
        At the same time, under the murzilka there may be a signature of the head of the shipbuilding, armament and operation of the Navy, Rear Admiral Tryapichnikov

        1. Tryapichnikov APPOINTMENT OF CHIRKOV - with all that it implies.
        2. Even when he was a caprice, the phrase "capraz Tryapichnikov" became a MEMOM - he managed to get rid of so much nonsense and nonsense in the media
        3. It has already been said about Chirkov, and about this PARTICIPANT everything is clear

        Quote: Volkonsky
        or the main developer of the project, he does not care.

        1. Don't care the chief designer (and Ivanov (20380 (5) and Zakharov (20386)) about the real combat capability of the corvettes.
        2. The corruption component has been completely revealed (and I very much suspect that this leaking of documents into the "Version on the Neva" was done by the "office")
        3. In his books, gk 20386 writes DIRECTLY OPPOSITE TO SCAM from 20386
        4. AGAIN - the corruption component has been more than exposed

        Quote: Volkonsky
        Timokhina has enough politeness not to go into someone else's garden,

        Volkonsky, I don’t understand, what do you consider this media "your garden" ?????

        PS. The comments are given, and as I understand it, he did not have any imputed objections and will not have
      2. Polente the Wanderer April 10 2021 18: 35
        +3
        Dear Volkonsky!
        Is there an official decision why 386 was preferred? Timokhin on military review in the comments simply kept silent to a direct question.
        When the authors write numerous articles, someone reads them in advance to understand there is confirmation of the facts (from Klimov's comments like "LIE to Musie Chirkov", "4. AGAIN - the corruption component has been more than exposed", (20380) and Zakharov (5)) on the real combat capability of corvettes. ") Or not?
        Is there a layout for spending on the creation of 20380,20385,20386 (hull, weapons, R&D, etc.) for comparison?
        Project 20386 is a completely new type (on the basis of which, for example, frigates, destroyers ...) will be built in shipbuilding?
        The fact that in articles on 380,385,386 there are constantly various enumerations of weapons about which they say that it is more effective than another and for this reason it is necessary to choose this type and the author (the same Klimov for example) believes that he is an expert, a professional is not the ultimate truth.
        Do we have really professional theorists (which ship will be more effective only showing a combat encounter, the simulator will not give a complete picture) shipbuilding who to interview if they do not write themselves?
        Why are there no performances on the pages of those design bureaus whose projects are being discussed?
        By the way, Chirkov is the chief adviser of the USC on military shipbuilding?
        1. Volkonsky Offline Volkonsky
          Volkonsky (Wolf) April 11 2021 05: 30
          +2
          I didn't dig that deep, I just tried to counter some accusations against the 20386 project from the retired major. Timokhin has more on this topic, and he writes more interestingly. Both are specialized PLO specialists. By the way, destroyers and frigates will not be built on the basis of 20386, they are an independent class of ships and are designed on the basis of other prototypes. But Project 20386 will be able to replace the light frigate of Project 11356, which is already morally obsolete (I quoted Rear Admiral Tryapichnikov in the text, this is the head of the GUKVE Navy). And so far we are talking about only one experimental ship. Why so much fuss about him, don't you know? There, in the following texts (there will be three more), I tried to answer not some of your questions. Do not miss.

          The editors are not responsible for the content of the texts, but VO is a specialized resource, there are more narrow specialists there. I go through another department, for which Yuri Ivanovich Borisov is responsible (the former deputy of the Ministry of Defense, who oversaw the military-industrial complex, now the deputy chairman of the Russian Federation), so I concentrate on general issues, my task is to popularize content that is difficult for a simple layman. I have no personal ambitions. As well as external customers. I am absolutely independent in choosing a topic and covering it. I don't have much respect for big stars on shoulder straps, I just respect people older than me, but there are not many of them left (such a bad upbringing). What my opponent, who is 20 years younger than me, does not have. He has a VVMU named after him. Frunze, which he graduated from in 1998 (just anti-submarine faculty), this year the school was merged with Lenkom (VVMUPP), i.e. He already has a diploma from St. Petersburg Marine Corps (Peter the Great Marine Corps, St. Petersburg), which he went ashore so early - I have no idea. But here he is at war with everyone. It costs him nothing to mix with the shit of an honored sailor - the last time he did it with Vice Admiral Ryazantsev, before that he dropped the caprang of Khraptovich, his 83-year-old grandfather, confused something in those. terms, after all, has long been retired, this was enough for our major to raise this to a degree and cross out all his services to the Fatherland (and Kaperang Khraptovich - commanded a strategic nuclear submarine missile cruiser, when our hero was still only dreaming about the sea, burned on it, got out of this situation with honor, but for our hero it means nothing, burned on the surface, which means - not a hero)
          1. Polente the Wanderer April 11 2021 17: 08
            +2
            Dear Vladimir!
            Thank you for the information. That one nervous expert I read both in the military-industrial complex and on the forum of submariners. So we will not talk about him.
            On the basis of 386 to build destroyers, ... - I meant that, in principle, 386 is multi-purpose (depending on weapons), block?. And accordingly, according to the same principle, build heavier (1 rank) ships. I saw films both from separate sections assembled at other factories, the Airbus aircraft was then assembled, as individual sections of a giant container ship were docked (by a welding robot).
            That is, roughly speaking, there is a body, it can be increased (of course, not to infinity), the armament (in principle, cells for missiles, ...) is the same type. The level of compatibility of weapons, other equipment will be greater and, accordingly, there will be no different ammunition incompatible.
            And Timokhin and other authors always write that it is necessary to build this particular type of ship, install this radar (the authors of each article are probably professionals in different fields at the same time, although the ship is a hull, engines, weapons ...), a mine apparatus, etc. ... All this is great, of course, but I haven’t read why the corvette takes longer to build than destroyers in China and the United States?
            I have not read that real professional developers in certain areas (hull, engines, ...) say why they applied this particular thing on this ship.
            They say victory is forged in the rear. What is the level of automation of production in the military-industrial complex? Employees of the Galaktika corporation say a lot about this. In Soviet times, designers drew on whatman paper, removed tracing paper and sent to shipyards. Now, I hope we have designers doing everything using CAD AutoCAD or others. Ideas and production must also be automated if we want to build a lot, quickly and cheaply.
            But the articles are mainly about the fact that we are going to build this wonderful ship ... When you read everything seems to be wonderful, joyful emotions go off scale - let's say the super destroyer Leader, ... But when reality comes into its own and a long construction begins ...
            1. Volkonsky Offline Volkonsky
              Volkonsky (Wolf) April 11 2021 19: 37
              -1
              yes no, they want to make it universal at the expense of detachable equipment 386, it is necessary to solve air defense problems - please, you need an anti-aircraft missile system - no problems, you need a URO - please, it will become multi-purpose if all this is combined in one case, but the case is not rubber 3400 tons with a displacement of max, and for a destroyer even a light one you need at least 5000, preferably 8-9 thousand tons, for them there is already a Leader's platform, but their hands do not reach, and there is no extra money. The navy is a ruinous thing, it’s not for nothing that they say, if you want to ruin a country, give it a cruiser. So we are trying to combine the incompatible in one ship, if it comes out, then we will save on the series. If you don't try, then nothing will come of it. In this sense, we cannot keep up with the Chinese pi * dos. Let's lose the arms race. Therefore, we want, as always, cheap and cheerful with one blow to beat everyone. Instead of the Leader, there will be project 22350M for the time being - an ocean-class frigate of 8000 tons
              1. Scharnhorst Offline Scharnhorst
                Scharnhorst (Scharnhorst) April 13 2021 15: 16
                0
                I understand that you are ironically exaggerating about versatility and modularity. If the AUG approaches Avacha at the f-35 departure range, we will "modulate" the air defense corvette for the meeting; to fight a nuclear submarine or a Japanese woman in an ambush before the departure of our SSBN, we will send a second "modular" PLO corvette; and to drive off the destroyer with the KRBD call the third modular in the shock version? Isn't it easier to solve all these problems with one non-masterpiece universal boat? Otherwise, the savings are good - at one point you will have to keep three ships, three crews, threefold consumption of fuels and lubricants.
                And again you rush from one extreme to another! Why would a decent balanced frigate of Project 22350 be inflated to the size of a destroyer? How will the 350M be better than its predecessor, except for the second helicopter and the significantly increased arsenal of ammunition? Dead-end branch of development.
    2. 2534 Offline 2534
      2534 April 10 2021 09: 34
      +1
      Quote: Wanderer Polente
      Where are the comments, opinions of the Navy (acting, albeit incognito if the chain of command does not allow, captains, admirals)?
      Where is the official decision why preference is given to this or that ship project?

      Both Timokhin and I have it all - quotes from officials
      First of all, LIE to Monsieur Chirkov.

      Glavkomat does not see prospects in the creation of ships, previously designated as "Corvette IAD". One of the main tasks of the OVR is to ensure the protection and defense of the naval forces in the areas of naval bases and in the adjacent territories. This task is now carried out by onshore observation means, stationary hydroacoustic stations and coastal missile-artillery troops, armed with anti-ship missiles of different ranges, as well as anti-submarine and strike aircraft.
      Rejecting the corvette, the Navy turned to the idea of ​​creating patrol ships - less armed, but with greater autonomy and versatility, capable, including, to go on long hikes. The design of the patrol ship will be handled by the North Design Bureau.

      Commander-in-Chief of the Navy Chirkov. 2014

      So where are these "coastal systems"? Huh?
      And still MAAAA A little touch - at this time these coastal systems (and so much with ZERO combat resistance that they were regularly "broken by fishermen" (and very often before the tests - which was suggestive)) very actively lobbied this "especially close" to Vitya Chirkov subject:

  15. Polente the Wanderer April 9 2021 21: 42
    -1
    Those who write articles should not forget that they are primarily JOURNALISTS, not strategists.
    1. 2534 Offline 2534
      2534 April 10 2021 09: 24
      -2
      Quote: Wanderer Polente
      Who writes articles should not forget that they are primarily JOURNALISTS

      Which Bodun you got from?
      My articles are articles of the SPECIALIST. And I began to publish in the media on the advice of the head of the Operations Directorate of the General Staff of the Navy k1r Zaborsky
  16. Polente the Wanderer April 9 2021 21: 57
    +1
    2534 = mina and the Wolf represent two different commercial structures promoting their interests. And who of the commentators is dissatisfied or simply asks unfavorable questions, then to their fingernails.

    Monsieur, are you surely able to answer for your long tongue? And call this JACOB "the commercial structure I represent"? And of course this is "JUSTIFY"

    "Feeling" is not a statement and arises when, instead of communicating and finding out why the Fleet is not what we all want, they immediately switch to the personality of the one who dared to ask the "strategist" something
    1. 2534 Offline 2534
      2534 April 10 2021 09: 25
      -1
      Quote: Wanderer Polente
      when, instead of communicating and finding out why the Fleet is not what we all want, they immediately switch to the personality of the one who dared to ask the "strategist" something

      lying.
      I answer NORMAL questions normally. And if you don't quite take it, I'm always ready to explain (in the appropriate framework, of course).
      But those who came to DRAW, really shovel from me right away