The trouble came from where they did not expect: How Russia coped with the lack of ship turbines


I continue a series of articles devoted to the state of affairs of our fleet, in particular its surface part. Start here.


As of the current moment, three of the six Project 11356R ships ordered by the Navy are in service with the Russian Navy. The frigates "Admiral Grigorovich", "Admiral Essen" and "Admiral Makarov" managed to receive Ukrainian engines before the events of 2014 and become part of the Black Sea Fleet (and even check in in Syria). The three remaining frigates of the "Admiral's" series - "Butakov", "Istomin" and "Kornilov" are in various degrees of readiness in conservation at the Kaliningrad shipyard "Yantar". They were originally intended for the Baltic Fleet. But their construction was frozen due to Ukraine's refusal to supply the M7N power plants, previously paid for by Russia, made by the Nikolaev State Enterprise NPKG Zorya-Mashproekt (the unit consists of two DS71 gas turbine engines with a capacity of 8,45 thousand hp and two gas turbine engines DT59 with a capacity of 22 thousand hp, with a total total capacity of 60,9 thousand hp). In view of this, even their possible sale to the Indian Navy was considered.

And what was seen as an unwanted opportunity 7 years ago has come true in 2019. We sell unfinished frigates to India, although we originally built them for ourselves. For those who have forgotten, I will remind you that back in October 2016, during the visit of Russian President Vladimir Putin to India, a Russian-Indian intergovernmental agreement was signed providing for the construction of four Project 11356 frigates for the Indian Navy, two of which were to be built at JSC The Baltic shipyard "Yantar" in Kaliningrad, and the other two at the Indian shipyard (the most likely candidate was the state-owned Hindustan Shipyard Limited (HSL) in Vishakhapatnam). The total cost of the agreement was then estimated at $ 3 billion.However, negotiations on this issue were delayed due to price differences and political problems (which ones, you yourself know). In February 2017, it was reported that the price offer submitted by the Russian side, providing for $ 990 million for two Russian-built frigates, did not suit the customer, because the cost of two Indian-built frigates turned out to be much higher than this amount (although it provided for the transfer of technologies and training of local staff). As a result, as of October 2018, according to the Indian side, the price dropped to $ 2,2 billion (including $ 950 million for Russian-built ships), but the contract for the construction of two frigates in India was never signed.

The situation with Russian-built frigates got off the ground only on August 17, 2017, when the Defense Procurement Commission of the Government of India approved the purchase from Ukraine of two sets of M7N gas turbine units for Project 11356 frigates for $ 76 million, and Ukraine went for it. This greatly simplified the task for us. At that time, it was already finally clear that we would not receive Ukrainian engines (either directly or through gasket firms). The task was set for Rybinsk engine builders to master the production of power plants so necessary for the fleet. But it's easy to say - master the release. In fact, everything turned out to be much more complicated. Even the President of the Russian Federation was forced to admit this during the Direct Line with the Russians in June 2019:

We had to (and we did this as a result of the sanctions imposed on us) to turn on our brains about what and how we need to do in high-tech sectors economics... This forced us to develop even those areas where we previously did not have competence. I spoke about it, now I can repeat it. Suppose we in the RSFSR (in the Soviet Union) and in the new Russia never had a domestic marine engine building, we bought it abroad. It turned out that it is not enough to be able to produce engines in general, and marine engines are a special story, a separate science, a separate branch, a separate competence. We have done this in a few years. We have got our own engines, and not only are not inferior, but in some ways superior to the Western counterparts ...).

Trouble came from not having waited


If Putin himself has already started talking about this, then it is worth highlighting this topic in more detail. The power plant is the heart of the ship, without it it becomes a useless floating piece of metal, no matter what kind of weapon it is stuffed with, easy prey for enemy aircraft and missiles, and a potential mass grave for its crew members. Needless to say, by refusing to supply power plants for the needs of our Navy, our "partners" hit us not even in the back, but in the very heart. The result of this was the suspension of the construction of ships already launched into series (frigates of projects 11356 and 22350 and corvettes of project 20385/20386), which led to a shortage of attack ships equipped with Kalibr cruise missiles performing the assigned task in Syria.

So, in June 2018, there was a period when all that our military contingent had in the SAR was two Varshavyanka diesel-electric submarines, carrying four Caliber-PLs each. To plug this hole, the command had to drive to the Syrian shores even small missile ships (MRK), i.e. send ships of the near sea zone across several seas. This never happened in the days of the USSR, which testified to the most serious crisis that arose in our naval forces, which, as best they could, contributed to our sworn "friends" from Ukraine and "partners" in the West. The Yankees, looking at this, only blinked with happiness.

It got to the point that an extremely unpleasant event took place in November 2018, which the Russian Defense Ministry chose not to advertise, “smoothing the corners” with cautious statements. MRK "Vyshny Volochek" returned home from Syria through the Bosphorus and the Dardanelles in tow. And he received damage not in battle with the enemy. There were further problems with a Chinese-made diesel engine CHD622V20, which they began to put on Russian ships as part of import substitution instead of German MTU 16V4000M90 (the Germans refused us their diesels for the same reason as the Ukrainians). The Chinese comrades had a CHD622V20 engine that seemed to be "almost like a German" (they produced a copy of the outdated German Deutz TBD622 diesel engine under license), but in fact it turned out to be "truly Chinese" in the worst sense of the word. They proved to be more voracious and less reliable, unable to work in forced modes. A number of experts were against such "import substitution", since the "Chinese" had to "chicken" the design of the finished hulls, and also because of the impossibility of such a power plant to provide the speed necessary for a military vessel. There were doubts about their motor resource, which, unfortunately, were fully justified. The experts were not listened to and received 4 more accidents (this time on the ships of the FSB Border Service). As a result, the entire burden of import substitution fell on the Yaroslavl and Kolomna motor builders and the St. Petersburg PJSC "Zvezda".

A feat of constructors


Initially, the frigates of Project 11356 were regularly equipped with the Ukrainian M7N.1E gas turbine unit (gas turbine unit) produced by the Nikolaev GP NPKG Zorya-Mashproekt, consisting of four gas turbines and five gearboxes located in two engine rooms. The cruise compartment housed two turbines of economic progress DS-71 (with a capacity of 8,45 thousand hp) with two PO63 gearboxes and an auxiliary gearbox Р1063, allowing each turbine to work on both propellers at once. The afterburner housed two DT-59.1 full-speed turbines (22 hp each) and two RO58 single-speed gearboxes. At the same time, the entire power plant operated according to the COGOG scheme (with separate operation of the afterburner and main engines) through complex gearboxes on two shafts and two fixed pitch propellers (FPP). The total power of the main power plant (main power plant) was 2 x 30,45 thousand hp. (60,9 thousand hp).

You see how difficult it is. Yaroslavl engine builders have not done anything like this before. The situation was further complicated by the fact that the “admirals”, standing on the stocks of the “Yantar” in varying degrees of readiness, occupied them, thereby slowing down the plant and driving it into losses, which, against the background of the failure of the GPV (State Program of Armaments) 2011-2020 and non-receipt of the fleet of ocean-class ships that he so needed in Syria already looked like flowers. The non-brothers, looking at all this, could only rub their hands, especially since they had already received the money for the undelivered power plants as an advance payment and were not going to return it (let the Russian Federation return Crimea to them first!).

So that you understand the whole horror of the situation, I'll just give the data on the readiness of the ships. "Admiral Butakov", laid down in July 2013, construction frozen, 100% readiness, but no engine, mothballed at the wall. "Admiral Istomin", founded in November 2013, the situation is the same, except in an even less advanced state of construction. There, the installation of many units, especially those related to the engine room, did not even begin. The sixth frigate of the series, Admiral Kornilov, was laid down in December 2013, but the prepared units and structures were mothballed due to the inability to continue construction. No one was in a hurry anywhere - there is no power plant (main power plant) of the ship. The plant is idle. Ukraine rubs its hands gleefully. The Americans are also watching this with ill-concealed joy. Life is good!

The development of its own gas turbine power plants produced by Rybinsk PJSC "UEC-Saturn" as of 2014-15 was in the R&D stage. Yaroslavl engine builders promptly proposed for these purposes to use the all-mode gas turbine unit MA4, which they are developing, consisting of four gas turbine engines M70FRU, with a maximum power of 14 thousand hp, arranged according to the 2 + 2 scheme, with a total total capacity of 56 thousand hp. but taking into account the need for time for the development of gearboxes for it, the production and development of which were entrusted to PJSC "Zvezda" (St. Petersburg), as well as the time to fine-tune the aforementioned engines to the series (so far only bench tests are underway), the installation of Rybinsk power plants on unfinished frigates project 11356R could be expected no earlier than in 2021-22.

This was indirectly confirmed by the President of the United Shipbuilding Corporation (USC) Alexei Rakhmanov, when he said that

on gas turbine engines, we are working in accordance with the plan, the first engines produced by NPO Saturn will receive frigates of project 22350, then corvettes, vessels with a dynamic principle of support, and by mid-2018 they will go to frigates of project 11356.

He said this in December 2016. Those. I translate it to the public - the first domestic gas turbine engines from Rybinsky were to receive heavy frigates of project 22350, then corvettes of project 20386, and only then the turn would come to light frigates of project 11356R.

Therefore, it is sad for us, but the sale of ready-made admirals "Butakov" and "Istomin" to the Indian side was a salvation for us. They have already received their names - "Tushil" and "Tomala", respectively. The money was transferred in full to the USC accounts on September 25, 2019. The fate of the sixth admiral - "Kornilov" is still in question. The frigates, which had been launched before, were again raised on the stocks, work on them has been going on since last year, representatives of the Indian Navy have already visited Kaliningrad to inspect the state of affairs. The timing of the transfer of the finished frigates to the customer is stipulated in the first half of 2024. I am quoting FSMTS (Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation). She also informed about the Indian shipyard, which will master its own production of frigates with the help of our specialists. This is the shipyard of Goa Shipyard Ltd (they are waiting for technical documentation from Severny PKB). As a result, India will receive at least 4 more frigates of Project 11356. How much will we get, question? It is possible that work on them has been curtailed, giving preference to heavy frigates of project 22350M, corvettes of project 20386 and MRK of project 22800 "Karakurt".

In principle, it may not be the worst solution, given that a spoon is expensive for dinner. Light frigates of project 11356R were supposed to solve our problems that arose with the delay in launching heavy frigates of project 22350 into a series. Those, by the way, were also affected by the lack of Ukrainian gas turbine engines, and the Rybinsk engine builders have already solved these problems by creating and testing the M90FR gas turbine engine with a capacity of 27,5 , 10 thousand hp, which, together with the cruising Kolomna diesel engine 49D2018, was supposed to replace the Nikolaev products, which are regularly installed on heavy frigates. This allowed the Deputy Prime Minister of the Russian Federation Yuri Borisov to declare back in September XNUMX that Russia had completely overcome its dependence on the supply of Ukrainian engines for warships and this issue was “finally closed”.

Reference: M90FR together with 10D49 cruising diesel engine Kolomna makes up the M55R ship gas turbine unit (KGA). And the diesel-gas turbine power plant of frigates of the "Admiral Gorshkov" type includes two such KGA (ie, the M90FR needs two for the ship).

Let me remind you that the lead frigate of this series "Admiral Gorshkov", like the first serial "Admiral Kasatonov", received their propulsion systems from the Ukrainians even before the events of 2014. But the remaining "admirals" were not lucky, they had to wait for the products of the Rybinsk engine builders, and the first of them, "Admiral Golovko", has already received it (the first KGA was installed on the ship in December last year, the second - in January this year), now the frigate is being prepared to mooring tests.

Another M90FR engine (KGA - MA3), according to Mil.Press FlotProm, is being manufactured at Saturn for the head corvette Daring (later renamed Mercury, project 20386, displacement 3 tons), which is being built in the same place on "Severnaya Verf" (St. Petersburg). However, tests of Russian gas turbine engines on warships will not begin until 400-2021. While the bench tests of the M2022FR are underway. If everything goes according to plan, the third and fourth frigates of Project 90, Admiral Golovko and Admiral Isakov, will be handed over to the fleet in 22350-2022, respectively. Corvette "Daring" is planned to be handed over at the turn of 2023-2021 (laid down on September 22, 28).

Cheap and cheerful!


In connection with the above, the need to continue the series of light frigates becomes doubtful in the context of the tasks they solve in the far sea zone and given their technical backwardness already at the time of creation. The spoon was good for dinner, it was then (in 2010) that we revived our project, which was successful in all respects at the end of the 70s of the last century, the diesel-electric submarines of project 636.3 "Varshavyanka", launching a series of 13 submarines, 8 of which are already in service, having armed their cruise missiles "Caliber-PL" (with ammunition of 4 CR) - as well as the light frigate of Project 11356R with its "Caliber-NK" diesel-electric submarine of Project 636.3 cheaply and angrily conveyed our idea to a potential enemy. In the period from 2014 to 2016, six of them became part of the Separate submarine brigade of the Black Sea Fleet, two more replenished the Submarine Brigade of the Pacific Fleet, clearly identifying the range of our interests (the remaining five diesel-electric submarines will be transferred to the fleet, in particular, four Pacific Fleets and one BF, in the next three years, and the first two are already in 2021-2022, respectively). The light frigate of Project 11356R was called upon to serve the same tasks, but it did not work out - the enemies intervened. Now time is lost, these tasks are still cheap and cheerful, but project 20386 URO corvettes and Project 22350 URO heavy frigates will be solved on a modern technical base.

Therefore, the Indians, who hurried in advance with the purchase of our illiquid products, came in just the right way. Yes, and we have fewer problems, because it is much easier and cheaper to install a power plant in the designated place for it by the project than to “chuck” ready-made “admiral” buildings for new Russian-made power plant. By the way, the Indians have already signed a contract with the Ukrainians for the supply of a large volume of gas turbine equipment produced by Zorya-Mashproekt. The contracts were signed back in September 2019 in Delhi. The range of products supplied includes gas turbine engines, gearboxes and sets of spare parts for them. The equipment is designed for ships of various classes that are part of the Indian Navy. Also, the signed contracts provide for training of Indian specialists in the operation of gas turbines and the provision of engineering support. Let's leave it aside that the cunning Ukrainians actually sold the same engines twice (from the Russian Federation they received 2 billion rubles as an advance payment for them even before the Maidan, which the acting president Turchynov refused to give away, like this - neither GTU, no money and nothing, they can do anything!).

The appearance of these ships was supposed to expand the capabilities of the Russian Navy in the Mediterranean, Central and North Atlantic, as well as in the Arctic zone, and expand the capabilities of the Indian Navy in the Indian and adjacent oceans. These are the vicissitudes of fate.

I have to put an end to this. But the story doesn't end there. The end of the story is in the next article.
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  1. wolf46 Offline wolf46
    wolf46 13 March 2021 09: 26
    +4
    The non-brothers, looking at all this, could only rub their hands, especially since they had already received the money for the undelivered power plants as an advance payment and were not going to return it (let the Russian Federation return Crimea to them first!).

    At "Zor" (Nikolaev), in all seriousness they believe:
    1) the Russians refuse to take their engines, so the staff of the plant from 2015 to 2020 was reduced from 15 to 9 thousand people;
    2) the merit of visiting engineers (from Ukraine) in the appearance of Russian turbines, and without them it would not have happened.
    (source - interview on YouTube of the Nikolaev journalist)
    Corvette 20386 "Daring / Mercury" is an experimental ship, it should not be taken into account! Hence the reasonable decision to continue the series of corvettes 20380/20385.
    1. Volkonsky Offline Volkonsky
      Volkonsky (Vladimir) 13 March 2021 09: 37
      0
      It seems that the Main Headquarters of the Navy did not listen to you, and is selling two ready-made corvettes of the project 20380 "Zealous" and "Strogiy", laid down in 2015 on the stocks of "Severnaya Verf" and intended for the Black Sea Fleet of the Russian Federation, Algeria. Why don't you know? About this in the next. article (now writing)
      1. bear040 Offline bear040
        bear040 13 March 2021 14: 03
        +4
        For Algeria, corvettes 20382 were intended, with Yakhont anti-ship missiles instead of Uranov and with Kashtan-M air defense systems instead of Redoubt air defense systems.
        1. Volkonsky Offline Volkonsky
          Volkonsky (Vladimir) 13 March 2021 20: 32
          0
          all right you write, this is an export version of 20380 under the code "Tiger" project 20382, it differs not only in weapons, but also in the power plant - the Algerians put a German diesel engine, not a Kolomna one, but the fact remains that corvettes intended for the Black Sea Fleet are suddenly given to the Navy Algeria, why not build new Tigers for them?
          1. Wanderer039 Offline Wanderer039
            Wanderer039 13 March 2021 20: 36
            +1
            There is no official information on this, and if the Black Sea Fleet of the Russian Federation does not have enough ships to fulfill the assigned tasks, the already not high rating of the moon-faced one can fall to the level of the drunk Boriska ... As De Brelyi said, “Paris loves winners.” Everyone loves the winners, no one needs the losers ... So, in the place of the moon-faced one, I would think hard before weakening the Russian fleet, which is so far from ideal and its best times, with such not smart actions ...
            1. Oleg Bratkov Offline Oleg Bratkov
              Oleg Bratkov (Oleg Bratkov) 14 March 2021 06: 02
              -7
              Lunar Wanderer039, let me chew you one more time if my brain is not enough to comprehend what is written. There are no engines for the ships, the engines were made in Ukraine, and now it does not supply them. The constructed ships took away the resources of the factory, the factory cannot make ships, and unfinished ones can be stored indefinitely. Engines are not given only to Russia, if you sell a ship to India, or to anyone else, then the engine will be immediately found for it. The same Ukraine is ready to make at least 10 engines for each ship if it does not go to Russia.
              Has it come or not?
              1. bear040 Offline bear040
                bear040 14 March 2021 07: 55
                +6
                Before throwing show-off, you need to attend to the state of your own brain and you have problems with it, the same as a furniture maker, a lover of Italian tanks, if not worse. In the Russian Federation, there are M11356FRU motors for frigates 70, and they are going to be installed on new landing ships, so they will still have to be launched into series. Read more and show off less, you will look smarter.
  2. Nick Offline Nick
    Nick (Nikolai) 13 March 2021 10: 05
    +2
    Everyone imagines himself to be a strategist ... The Ministry of Defense knows better what to do in the given circumstances, to sell, donate or keep. The MO also has a much wider vision horizon, and the competence is higher than that of local scribblers. IMHO
    1. orange Offline orange
      orange (ororpore) 13 March 2021 14: 14
      -2
      How just and weighty it is!
    2. Volkonsky Offline Volkonsky
      Volkonsky (Vladimir) 13 March 2021 20: 48
      -3
      proved to be a great expert on the issue? the decision is made not by the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, but by the General Staff of the Navy of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation, and about this in the next. article
  3. bear040 Offline bear040
    bear040 13 March 2021 14: 00
    +6
    It makes no sense at all to build corvettes 20386, since this trough costs almost like a heavy frigate of Project 22350, and is armed with budget subsonic obsolete Uranus missiles, there are no modules for them, their construction is additional and not small money, and it is impossible to take all modules on board even in as a result, we get not a universal expensive trough, at the price of a heavy universal frigate
    1. wolf46 Offline wolf46
      wolf46 13 March 2021 14: 22
      +6
      I believe in the course that corvettes 20386 and frigates 22350 "intersect" not only in terms of price, but also in terms of propulsion systems. At the time of the laying of the "Mercury" (October 2016) at the Yantar plant (Kaliningrad) there were 5 (!) Hulls of unfinished ships (including 3 "Admirals" 11356) - I don't want to choose a platform for experimenting with modular weapons)

      In my opinion, the construction of MRK 21631 (Vyshny Volochek) is also mistaken, since the INF Treaty was liquidated and Project 22800 Karakurt is better equipped with domestic engines, unlike Buyans.
      1. bear040 Offline bear040
        bear040 13 March 2021 14: 25
        +4
        Taking into account the excessive construction time of these non-universal RTOs, which are built almost as long as the 20380 corvettes, I do not see much sense in them at all, neither in Buyany, nor in Karakurt. If they were built in 1 - 2 years, then it would be possible to look for at least some meaning in them, because they could become a hound for Soviet MRKs of the Gadfly type, or missile boats ...
        1. Volkonsky Offline Volkonsky
          Volkonsky (Vladimir) 13 March 2021 20: 45
          0
          with karakurt you are mistaken, in the next. article in detail about them, everything was very good there. quickly, in 3 years from project to finished product
          1. Wanderer039 Offline Wanderer039
            Wanderer039 13 March 2021 20: 56
            +3
            You are right only about the first ships of the series, then the construction time began to drag on until the dates were not decent for such ships. So, for example, MRK Kozelsk, laid down in May 2016, is planned to be handed over to the fleet only at the end of 2021, we get a construction period of 4 years 7 months, and this is if it is delivered on time and is not delayed, which is not a fact.
            1. Volkonsky Offline Volkonsky
              Volkonsky (Vladimir) 13 March 2021 21: 07
              0
              you're right again (it's nice to talk to a savvy person, there's also a bear040 and a wolf46 differ in this, the rest pour soup on the author and on Putin - idiots), but do you know the reason for the delay? the terms have shifted to the right because of the "Zvezda", which cannot cope with the surging orders, we will rake it up, more on that in the next. article in detail
              1. Wanderer039 Offline Wanderer039
                Wanderer039 13 March 2021 21: 34
                +5
                This is not an excuse, they do not cope themselves, they need to transfer orders to free shipyards, and if MRKs are being built for so long, then it is better to build two multipurpose corvettes 20385, instead of three MRKs, the same time comes out, and the money is probably the same.
                1. Volkonsky Offline Volkonsky
                  Volkonsky (Vladimir) 13 March 2021 21: 40
                  +1
                  I praised you early, it’s not the shipyards, they’re just doing it, the St. Petersburg Star with gearboxes slows down, and besides her, only Kingisepp (but it’s even worse there)
                  1. Wanderer039 Offline Wanderer039
                    Wanderer039 13 March 2021 22: 06
                    +5
                    Well, these do not cope, it is necessary to increase production, or establish it somewhere else. They won't send us gearboxes from Norway ... but we, alas, don't itch, our handlers ...
                  2. Wanderer039 Offline Wanderer039
                    Wanderer039 13 March 2021 22: 15
                    +4
                    Remember the Soviet film Moscow Doesn't Believe in Tears? There, a lady who became a director says to the head of the shop:

                    I am not interested in why not, I am interested in what you did to make it happen. Execute and report '

                    So here the claims of the people to Putin and his team are quite justified. You need to solve the problem, and not throw up your hands and chat it up ... If, sorry, you met a girl, and at night you could not do anything, she will find another, and will not listen to your excuses ... That's the same with officials, including Vova ... The people, like a woman, need someone who can, and not someone who only promises ... or cannot and shrugs.
                    1. Volkonsky Offline Volkonsky
                      Volkonsky (Vladimir) 13 March 2021 22: 27
                      0
                      I don't want to offend you, but ...

                      "What a pity that all people who know how to run the state already work as hairdressers or taxi drivers" (Francois Mitterrand)

                      "In a hierarchical system, any employee rises to the level of their incompetence" (Peter principle - Lawrence Peter Canadian professor)

                      you are simply not in the subject
                      1. Wanderer039 Offline Wanderer039
                        Wanderer039 13 March 2021 23: 25
                        +4
                        You shouldn't be like that. People are tired of narcissistic fools with loose fingers. No need to praise yourself, wait for others to do it. And the fact that the officially declared average salary in the Russian Federation is bullshit has long been no secret. I was taught at school that the average salary is what the majority of the population receives, and not the arithmetic average between the salary of a cleaning lady and Serdyukov's crooked hand ... So far, the desire of any Serdyukov to lead is far ahead of their mental ability to lead. Everything that these people touched, everything is fucked up, or it was done somehow through the anus. Mistrals alone are worth ... well, at least the Italian tanks did not start buying, as the furniture maker wanted. The fact that Serdyukov is married to Medvedev's relatives does not make him smart and capable of holding leading positions. Such nepotism will not lead to any good. People need to be appointed according to their ability, but here the appointment is clearly on a different principle ... And you don't need to offend hairdressers, they are at least in their place, but the furniture maker is not ...
                      2. Volkonsky Offline Volkonsky
                        Volkonsky (Vladimir) 13 March 2021 23: 50
                        0
                        I'll give you a link to the Mistral, we won more there than we lost, although, of course, the enemies tripped us up, (but it was not Serdyukov, but Barak Monkeyanich, although I do not feel much respect for Serdyukov, he is up to Borisov or Shoigu like cancer to the sky), but pouring soup on top management is a futile occupation, how bad it can be understood by looking at a neighboring country - a misunderstanding (everything is learned in comparison)
                        Here is the link (read toko start, before Kuzi) -
                        https://proza.ru/2018/11/30/1427
                      3. bear040 Offline bear040
                        bear040 14 March 2021 01: 56
                        +3
                        Well, it depends on which country we are equal to, if Ukraine and the countries of Africa, then it makes sense to look at them and endure the current potential shepherds of sheep in power, because most of them do not pull more, this is me just about Chubais, the furniture maker and him similar. If we want to live a normal life, then we should not choose Ukraine as an example to follow, but against the background of Saudi Arabia, the leadership of the Russian Federation, excuse me, is insignificant. There, for young families, housing at the expense of the state (albeit not luxurious, but quite decent, to begin with), and medicine and education are free, and in any country of the world and a bank account at the birth of every citizen ... But in the Russian Federation there is none of this and not foreseen ... It's ridiculous to talk about salaries, and the Saudis buy the best equipment in the world for the army, and not wheeled tanks from Italy, for some reason there is enough sense not to do this, but Serdyukov did not come out with the mind against the background of the sheikhs, and those who appoint this mediocrity to leadership positions than they think, and are they able to think clearly ?! At the expense of the Mistrals, it would be more useful to take the Dutch landing ship-dock Rotterdam as the basis for the Russian amphibious assault ships. Fortunately, even now there is enough sense to build something like this in Kaliningrad, after frankly unsuccessful Grenov .... At the expense of Obama, it was not he who put the bandwagon on the Russian Federation, but the fools who shouted that the Russian industry does not need the Russian industry, and something always interferes with a bad dancer. ..that is Obama, then the neighbor Vasya ...
  • Volkonsky Offline Volkonsky
    Volkonsky (Vladimir) 13 March 2021 21: 36
    0
    bear, I thought so too, why should we have a corvette at the price of a heavy frigate? but the decision has already been made, there will be a series of at least 10 ships, but the armament has already been changed in favor of Calibers, and maybe Onyxes (and in the future, Zircons), for this it was extended (both from the bow and from the stern to avoid trim) and at the exit they no longer received a corvette, but a light frigate, attention - the ocean zone (not even a distant sea one), which will be with 11356R, I don't know, there is an engine for them, but Kornilov will most likely be sold to the Indians (morally outdated, the spoon is good for lunch!). In general, to be continued ...
    1. Wanderer039 Offline Wanderer039
      Wanderer039 13 March 2021 21: 45
      +5
      To cut something out of the corvette 20386, when it is priced at the frigate 22350, I see no point. As for 11356, not everything is so simple. In the west, 11356 is considered an air defense frigate, there is an excellent working air defense system for which a new rocket was recently made, and the third frigate of the series was equipped with it. As an anti-submarine weapon, it carries RBU-6000, which is good for intercepting enemy torpedoes going to the ship and torpedo tubes of 533 mm, which have a longer range than the Package, which is on corvettes 20380 and frigates 22350. The package is more suitable for intercepting torpedoes. going to the ship, to attack the enemy's submarine, its range is small and if 22350 and 20385 can use anti-submarine calibers, then 20380 does not have them and against the submarine it is weaker than 11356. SAM for 11356 medium-range, 24 missiles ammunition, corvettes 20380 and 20385 can take there are only 12 medium-range air defense systems on board, and the vaunted heavy frigate 22350 can take on board a maximum of 32 medium-range air defense missile systems.
      1. Volkonsky Offline Volkonsky
        Volkonsky (Vladimir) 13 March 2021 21: 51
        0
        was air defense, became a multipurpose universal URO
        1. Wanderer039 Offline Wanderer039
          Wanderer039 13 March 2021 21: 54
          +6
          11356 and as a universal frigate, URO is much stronger than 20380 and in many ways stronger than 20385, especially if you count the air defense. 11356 can fight off the otakus of the RBU-6000 submarine and attack it with 533 mm torpedo tubes. Corvette 20380 has only a Self-Defense Package, there is nothing to attack the submarine with. 11356 have 24 medium-range air defense missile systems, 20380 and 20385 have only 12 medium-range air defense missile systems. The seaworthiness and cruising range of the 11356 is better than that of the corvettes.
  • Scharnhorst Offline Scharnhorst
    Scharnhorst (Scharnhorst) 13 March 2021 14: 21
    0
    This allowed the Deputy Prime Minister of the Russian Federation Yuri Borisov to declare back in September 2018 that Russia had completely overcome its dependence on the supply of Ukrainian engines for warships and this issue was “finally closed”.

    An official from the state government is supposed to loudly report on successes, so he is not objective, either because of his official duties, he is obliged to fulfill and report the "five-year plan in three years", or due to his lack of mental abilities, he is not able to realistically assess the state of affairs. But a real journalist would ask how many diesels, turbines and gearboxes can the industry produce in a year? Or is he afraid that the objective reality will greatly disappoint the readers of the pretentious article?
    1. Volkonsky Offline Volkonsky
      Volkonsky (Vladimir) 13 March 2021 20: 44
      +1
      At the expense of Yuri Borisov, you are wrong, the only person in the government (except, perhaps, also Belousov and Mishustin, who in his place has long been leading the military-industrial complex and is fully consistent with his position). About reality with the production of gas turbine engines, diesel engines and gearboxes to them in the next. article
  • Lime Bayun_2 Offline Lime Bayun_2
    Lime Bayun_2 (Lime Bayun) 13 March 2021 21: 24
    +2
    Ukrainians threw us, but oddly enough we continue to conduct interstate business with these thieves.
  • Victor Peter Offline Victor Peter
    Victor Peter (victor petrov) 13 March 2021 21: 59
    -2
    Pancake! And who thought of putting a Chinese city ... but on a warship ???
    Well, yellow-eyed people cannot do something more or less high-quality and long-lasting!
    Well, they can't, that's all! And let each other be served by those who will now begin to say the opposite!
    These are not shitty smartphones to rivet!
  • gorenina91 Offline gorenina91
    gorenina91 (Irina) 14 March 2021 10: 56
    -3
    There were further problems with a Chinese-made diesel engine CHD622V20, which began to be installed on Russian ships as part of import substitution instead of German MTU 16V4000M90 (the Germans refused us their diesels for the same reason as the Ukrainians). The Chinese comrades had a CHD622V20 engine that seemed to be "almost like a German" (they produced a copy of the outdated German diesel Deutz TBD622 under license), but in fact it turned out to be "truly Chinese" in the worst sense of the word. They proved to be more voracious and less reliable, unable to work in forced modes.

    - Strange ... - there is constantly news that China almost every three or four months "gives out on the mountain" (as the miners say) ... - another warship ...
    - And what kind of power plants provide these Chinese armadas with movement in the seas and oceans ??? - It is the Chinese who use the same bullshit engines for their ships ... - of the same crappy quality ... - or they just slip in all sorts of rubbish for Russia (as it has long been customary for them in all spheres ... - to shake off Russia all disgusting and monstrous quality) or they themselves also use their same low-quality settings ???
    - If they only have such "engines" in stock for all occasions, then it's not worth the price of all this Chinese countless fake "fleet" ...
    - It's a pity only our fleet ...
  • Alexander Loginov (Alexander Loginov) 14 March 2021 12: 54
    -2
    Quote: bear040
    Well, it depends on which country we are equal to, if Ukraine and the countries of Africa, then it makes sense to look at them and endure the current potential sheep shepherds in power, because most of them do not want more, this is me just about Chubais If we want to live normally, then it is not Ukraine that should be chosen as an example to follow, but against the background of Saudi Arabia, the leadership of the Russian Federation, excuse me, is insignificant. There, for young families, housing at the expense of the state (albeit not luxurious, but quite decent, to begin with), and medicine and education are free, and in any country of the world and a bank account at the birth of every citizen ... But in the Russian Federation there is none of this and not foreseen ... It's ridiculous to talk about salaries, and the Saudis buy the best equipment in the world for the army, and not wheeled tanks from Italy, for some reason there is enough sense not to do this, but Serdyukov did not come out with the mind against the background of the sheikhs, and those who appoint this mediocrity to leadership positions than they think, and are they able to think clearly ?!

    you forget about the population in Russia and Saudi Arabia, the size of the territory and so on. In Russia, the same number of highways are built per year as in the same Emirates, the Arabs do not need to maintain expensive housing and communal services, science, medicine, education, etc. on a Russian scale, I would not be surprised if it takes more to maintain the state border alone. than they have for the entire state apparatus. Therefore, they can afford payments to citizens
    1. Restless Sagittarius (Vladimir) 17 March 2021 23: 58
      +2
      From the Arabs, one soldier receives more than 10 junior officers in the Russian Federation, and maybe more. Arabs spend money on the study of their citizens abroad, and in the Russian Federation, in their universities, budgetary places a cat cried. Arabs buy the latest expensive military equipment abroad, and the Russian Federation sells it. ... The essence of things is simple - they do not steal in bags and do not take them abroad, they do not feed strangers, they only have a residence permit with the right to work and no benefits. Calculate how much you can save if not everyone has free medicine and education in the Russian Federation, but only the indigenous population! Count how many Russian guys it will be possible to save their lives if the Russian Federation begins to send, following the example of France, a Foreign Legion to the hot spots of the Russian Federation! There will be someone to serve there, do not hesitate, it is enough to stop distributing Russian citizenship to the right and to the left, do not understand to whom and do not understand why ...
  • Radikal Offline Radikal
    Radikal 19 March 2021 16: 22
    +1
    Quote: Wanderer039
    Well, these do not cope, it is necessary to increase production, or establish it somewhere else. They won't send us gearboxes from Norway ... but we, alas, don't itch, our handlers ...

    When, after the war, the country did not have a bomber - the carrier of nuclear weapons, the issue was solved simply - they copied, without fear of any sanctions, and the plane was ready in record time. Now what, or who is stopping you from copying what you yourself cannot? Maybe because in corporations there are woodpeckers who can only manage cash flows, and not production workers, and talented designers? sad
  • Alexey Sergeev Offline Alexey Sergeev
    Alexey Sergeev (Alexey Sergeev) 20 March 2021 22: 50
    0
    The author has a lot of complaints about "non-brothers" who insidiously refused to supply gas turbines.
    But it's worth returning to logic: we squeezed Crimea away from them (while there was confusion, we chose the right moment), organized an analogue of Chechnya in the 90s in their South-East.
    What idiots would they be if they continued to supply our military equipment? (Part of which, according to the "Voentorg", turns out to be in the South-East)
    And how naive should our "experts" be, who did not foresee this step?
    I remember about the "Chinese", there were victorious reports, they say, and it's good that the Germans do not give diesel engines, we will buy the same, but cheaper.
    Something similar sounded about banks: European ones stopped giving cheap loans (to enterprises), we will take from the Chinese. But Chinese banks, considering the benefits, also de facto joined the sanctions.
    In the modern world, authoring is doomed to stagnation and lagging behind.
    Interestingly, at the beginning of 2014, did anyone even weigh the pros and cons? Or was it all on a situational level, in the spirit of “there’s something like that”?
    1. Shavkat Kuvatov Offline Shavkat Kuvatov
      Shavkat Kuvatov (Shavkat Kuvatov) 14 May 2021 17: 01
      0
      We didn’t squeeze anything from non-brothers, this is a slander that you are stupidly repeating.
      1. Alexey Sergeev Offline Alexey Sergeev
        Alexey Sergeev (Alexey Sergeev) 15 May 2021 03: 01
        0
        Among not too intellectually burdened pro-imperial-minded citizens, just such a phrase was in use in 2014. What's a stupid mind ... is in the language. smile
        The military was placed everywhere, shyly removing their insignia, some of the deputies were not allowed to attend the meeting at all. (Strelkov told about it)
        Not to mention the fact that the issue of Crimea's secession from Ukraine was to be decided at an all-Ukrainian referendum, which would have been deliberately losing and which never took place.
        Objectivity comes first.
  • Shavkat Kuvatov Offline Shavkat Kuvatov
    Shavkat Kuvatov (Shavkat Kuvatov) 14 May 2021 17: 00
    0
    One could say that our Navy has learned a serious lesson. If you do not know our Moremans (not those who go on ships, but which these ships make them), I would say so. But experience shows that nothing suits them. And in the future, we will see more than once how they (accidentally or on purpose) will get into trouble with partners. It doesn't matter, with Chinese or, for example, Norwegian (remember how the engine factory swept past us like plywood over Paris?).