The West tried to explain why the Russian Su-57 cannot be compared with the F-35

November 14, 2020 36

Moscow is accustomed to occupying a leading position in the field of military aircraft construction. But in recent decades, Washington has taken the lead with the development of the fifth generation F-35 Lightning II and F-22 Raptor fighters. Now Russian leader Vladimir Putin has decided to push the Americans off the pedestal, writes the Indian edition of the EurAsian Times, citing research by the US RAND Corporation.

Russia lagged behind due to the inability to create a full-fledged fifth generation fighter. Moscow's response was the development of the Su-57, which many experts were quick to call an unsurpassed machine. However, the excitement from the anticipation of the Su-57 being adopted by the Russian Aerospace Forces quickly passed. Experts criticized the car because of the first stage engines on it (AL-41F1), which do not make the Su-57 a fifth-generation fighter. These engines are based on the Soviet AL-31F, which were developed for the Su-27.

In a study by the RAND Corporation it is said that all 76 Su-57 units, which are planned to be transferred to the Russian Aerospace Forces by 2028, will be without second stage engines ("Product 30"). The AL-41F1 engine creates 15000 kgf thrust on afterburner, and the "Product 30" will allow it to reach 18000 kgf and fly at a cruising supersonic speed.

In addition, some of the design features of the Su-57 increase its radar signature. These include the blades of the engine compressors "looking out" from the air intakes, the absence of an uninterrupted canopy and other details. Therefore, the Su-57 is not yet comparable to the F-35 and F-22.

Experts believe that the single-seat twin-engine Su-57 is not yet fully operational. It should become a multifunctional aircraft and be capable of hitting any targets (sea, air and ground). It should be armed with hypersonic missiles.

The Russians claim that the Su-57 has been successfully tested in combat conditions in Syria. However, they have not yet provided convincing evidence of this, sums up the publication.

https://www.sukhoi.org

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Oleg Bratkov

0

14 November 2020 11: 22

The leadership of the F-22 and F-35 is highly questionable. It is assumed that they will be used against the Papuans, without any air defense, and the United States will scream all over the world about absolute superiority. I would like to remind you that the United States not only never was on the moon, but in general did not fly into space for 20 years, after the flight of Gagarin. But from the very beginning they lied, lied and lied that "Mercury" and "Gemeni" are much better than "Unions", and "Apollo" finally were on the Moon. And what prevents them from continuing their false propaganda of American capitalism at the present time?
They did not dare to put the F-22 on sale, they made the plane better, more technologically advanced, this is the F-35, and now marvel at this huge American genius! On the same supersonic, the F-35 has no cruising mode, and if it flies, then the stealth coating crumbles. And the F-22 has nothing to compare with, it was not sold to anyone, in fact, and foreigners were never allowed on the Apollo, although they were supposedly three-seater, and a dozen and a half foreigners flew on the Soyuz, including from the capitalist camp.
1. white gentleman
  
  -3
  
  15 November 2020 16: 13
  
  Quote: Oleg Bratkov
  The leadership of the F-22 and F-35 is highly questionable.
  
  They are in the troops. And the Su-57 is not, and it is unlikely to appear, since the first one crashed.
  The story repeats with the promoted Armata, which was made in several copies for the parade.
  1. Voyager
    
    +1
    
    17 November 2020 10: 37
    
    The Su-57 is currently being mass-produced, the 2nd serial has already completed a test flight
    Equipment on the Armata platform is in a state of small-scale production and is being tested.
    
    Quote: white gentleman
    They are in the troops.
    
    They are in the troops with many flaws.
Oleg Bratkov

+2

14 November 2020 11: 28

... Experts believe that the single-seat twin-engine Su-57 has not yet been brought to full combat readiness ...

What do the developers think?
1. sgrabik
  
  +2
  
  14 November 2020 15: 27
  
  And who are these experts, these are the Indians, who for twenty years have not been able to create their own full-fledged fighter, even of the fourth generation !!!
  1. monman
    
    0
    
    15 November 2020 19: 21
    
    From the article:
    
    ... writes the Indian edition of the EurAsian Times, referring to the research of the RAND Corporation from the USA.
    
    Seeing at the root - RAND Corporation has several articles on the Su-57.
    August 2020
    
    Russian heavy fighter-bomber Su-57: is it really a fifth generation aircraft?
    
    https://www.rand.org/blog/2020/08/russias-su-57-heavy-fighter-bomber-is-it-really-a-5th.html
    
    (lane google)
    
    The Su-57 has been in development since 2002 and is considered a key part of the Russian arms export industry as a fifth-generation fighter capable of competing against rival systems such as the American F-35. The plane made its first flight about a decade ago, but the highly publicized system has not yet been implemented in the armed forces of Russia or other countries, despite Russian promises to the contrary. A series of test flights of the aircraft were recently carried out, including the dispatch of several prototypes to Syria in 2018 and 2019. It appears that the planes did not conduct live firing or sorties, while the Kremlin claimed otherwise without providing evidence. ... Moreover, development problems and recent accidents continued to delay the initial combat readiness of the Advanced Fighter-Bomber (IOC) until the mid-2020s. The head of the Sukhoi airline, which is developing the Su-57, resigned earlier this year due to delays in development, including the crash in December 2019 of the first "working" Su-57 aircraft during a test flight.
    
    One of the repeated findings of the analysis is the variety of problems and setbacks faced by the Russian Su-57, which reduced the likelihood of aircraft exports from Russia until the mid-2020s.
    
    It is unclear when the second generation engine will be finished.
    
    Besides the improved engine, the Su-57 is advertised as having all the azimuth characteristics, so-called 360-degree soundings, similar to the F-35. After all, what the fifth-generation fighter-bomber does is not only its low observability (LO), but an improved set of all azimuth sensors. Currently, only the F-35 has both of these features and is in serial production.
    The successful development of this advanced avionics has been and will remain a major challenge for the Russian aviation industry. The A&D industries in the Russian Federation have a legacy of unsuccessful attempts to fully utilize the fruits of the information technology revolution after the end of the Cold War. This has been further exacerbated by Western sanctions and the separation of Russian and Ukrainian A&D businesses in this regard. After the Crimean crisis, which began in the winter of 2014, the Russian military-political leadership talked about the re-nationalization and reform of the Russian air force sector, but the results were modest at best.
    Most of the problems are related to how the Russian A&D sector is financed. Large conglomerates must borrow from the Russian banking sector to finance the development of the next generation of high-tech combat vehicles, such as the Su-57 fighter-bomber. These conglomerates have repeatedly incurred debt to Russian banks after major weapons development programs ran into difficulties. From time to time, the Putin regime has had to “bail out” these industries, especially as overall defense spending was tied to oil and natural gas revenues. This revenue stream was limited during the 2015 Saudi Arabia's market share war, when the frac industries were introduced in North America. The recovery from a period of relative austerity in defense spending has been severely constrained by the recent downturn in the Russian economy, which has been hit by the fall in oil and gas prices triggered by the global economic turmoil caused by the COVID-19 pandemic.
    Unsurprisingly, the Russian government is determined to sell its current-generation combat vehicles and receive financial support through various advanced weapons joint development projects. The marketing and co-development of the Su-57 was a prime example of this phenomenon. India was the only country that had previously shown interest in buying the aircraft and entered into a joint development program with Russia in 2007. However, by 2018, India had pulled out of the program due to continued development delays, primarily due to the inability to develop a second-generation engine, and disagreements over technology transfer.
    While Russia continued to court India, the Modi government announced plans to develop its own fifth-generation aircraft, demonstrating that it had no plans to buy the Su-57. India has indicated it plans to develop its engines based on French, British and American models, given that Russia lags behind in engine technology. This does not mean that the Indian market for modern military vehicles and weapons has dried up for Russians. Recently, the Russians were able to sell relatively small numbers of Su-30 MKI and MiG-29s to India following violent border clashes between India and China in the summer.
    Russia continued to look for other markets for the Su-57 or partners for joint development. These include China, Turkey, Vietnam and Algeria. At present, these attempts have been unsuccessful. In December 2019, there were various reports indicating that Algeria had signed a contract for 12 Su-57 aircraft, making Algeria the first export customer. However, several sources have expressed skepticism about whether the deal will go through. One reason is that, given how far the Sukhoi lags behind in supplying the Su-57 to the Russian military, Russia will likely find it difficult to meet the 2025 deadline for Algeria. Another reason is that Algerian law requires imported military aircraft to first be flight tested in the country, which the Russians will never allow, according to Tom Cooper, an expert on Russian military aircraft.
    Despite Russia's ongoing efforts to sell the aircraft, it is unlikely that the fully developed and production-ready Su-57 will go on sale before the end of the 2020s. Even fully developed, the Su-57 will likely carry the attributes of another upgraded fourth-generation heavy fighter-bomber, the F-15EX, lacking the basic characteristics of the F-35, but possessing all the azimuth capabilities of that fifth-generation fighter aircraft.
boriz

+2

14 November 2020 12: 19

Even during the Soviet era, an anecdote about 3 words with the letter D was popular: Democracy, Devaluation and Demagoguery.
So, there Demagogy is when a husband proves to his wife that soft ... is much better than hard. The post describes just that case.

Experts criticized the car because of the first stage engines on it (AL-41F1), which do not make the Su-57 a fifth generation fighter. These engines are based on the Soviet AL-31F, which were developed for the Su-27.

Well, what a horror! And in Chinese J 20 there are just AL-31F. And nobody cares. No one really argues that this is a fifth generation aircraft.
And the F 35, in the best case scenario, does not reach 2 km / h. When you pay attention that this is a characteristic of the 000rd generation, squeals begin: "You don't understand! This is different!" Well, let's decide: cowards or a cross. By the way, Australian experts have long been talking about the third generation. And since the spring of this year, modifications B and C are prohibited from flying at a speed of more than Mach 3. One, Karl! And this, for a minute, is already the FIRST generation. Well, there, the stealth cover falls off, the tail can fall off. But this is nothing, a matter of everyday life. But this plane is "whoever needs it" (C) plane!
Yes, in some ways the country has lost momentum. Thanks to our "partners", whose money is worked out by Demagogues from the RAND corporation. Thank God that the country has not collapsed. Therefore, we must understand that they are interested and engaged persons. Unlike Australian experts, who were commissioned by the government for an objective analysis.
And the Indians, like a dealer at a fair, simply knock down the price.
And there are engines, they will be brought to series and replaced on the first-issue aircraft.
In general, this topic is already tired.
Now Cyril and Miron will lie here and begin to engage in Demagoguery.
1. sgrabik
  
  +2
  
  14 November 2020 16: 05
  
  That's why they are trolls that would openly lie and engage in demagoguery !!!
2. Binder
  
  -2
  
  14 November 2020 21: 29
  
  Quote: boriz
  Now Cyril and Miron will lie here and begin to engage in Demagoguery.
  
  I was not going to take part in the discussion on this pretty boring topic. But if you remembered my name you will have to speak out, at least briefly, because I have no inclination for demagoguery, but I am not a specialist in modern combat aviation.
  So, let's consider the state of affairs at the moment - the American fifth-generation fighters F-22 and F-35 are successfully operated, perform combat missions and receive purely positive feedback from pilots of various states mastering new technology. And the Su-57 is very far from being delivered to the troops and, moreover, from participating in real hostilities. Therefore, there is nothing to talk about - how can you compare real combat vehicles with what is not?
  1. isofat
    
    +2
    
    14 November 2020 22: 08
    
    Quote: boriz
    Now Cyril and Miron will lie here and begin to engage in Demagoguery.
    
    Quote: Bindyuzhnik
    I was not going to take part in the discussion on this pretty boring topic. But since you remembered my name ...
    
    Quote: Bindyuzhnik
    So, consider the state of affairs ...
    
    Well, wow! how boriz was right.
    1. Binder
      
      -2
      
      14 November 2020 22: 11
      
      Do you have anything to say on the topic of the publication without getting personal?
      1. isofat
        
        +3
        
        14 November 2020 22: 17
        
        I agree with the boriz, you have now confirmed that he was right.
        
        Binder
        
        -2
        
        14 November 2020 22: 21
        
        Good night and pleasant dreams.
      2. isofat
        
        +1
        
        14 November 2020 22: 28
        
        Quote: Bindyuzhnik
        ... American fifth-generation fighters F-22 and F-35 are successfully operated, perform combat missions and receive purely positive feedback from pilots of various states
        
        Is this enough to draw conclusions? I can also voice your other theses. You have been correctly diagnosed. Don't be offended.
        
        Binder
        
        -2
        
        14 November 2020 22: 52
        
        Quote: isofat
        Do not be offended.
        
        No hard feelings. How is the classic - "Who are the judges?"
        
        isofat
        
        +2
        
        14 November 2020 22: 59
        
        Quote: Bindyuzhnik
        No offense.
        
        I am glad. I found it for you to read - "On the method of comparing aviation technology"
        
        https://kramtp.info/novosti/interesnoe/full/40415
        
        Binder
        
        -2
        
        14 November 2020 23: 05
        
        Thank you! I will definitely use it.
  2. shinobi
    
    +1
    
    15 November 2020 06: 18
    
    The F-22 is a good car, but old. About what a wonderful F-35, tell the pilots thereof. Especially what these machines are wonderful in terms of life support and flight characteristics. And then the guys do not even know, they even complain about this wonderful device constantly trying kill them.
  3. taas
    
    0
    
    15 November 2020 11: 34
    
    Actually, you are really engaged in pure sophistry - diverting the topic aside. This is not about the number of cars produced, but about the technical characteristics.
    So far, only one Su-57 is planned (not counting the test ones), but it flies on old engines much faster than the F-35. The Hindus write about this characteristic.
steelmaker

-6

14 November 2020 13: 45

Personally, I will be happy if these SU-2028s are built by 57. And then the government has all 15-year plans.
rotkiv04

+4

14 November 2020 17: 51

gypsies just knock down the price before buying, these dances with tambourines will be for a long time
Oleg Osadchiy

+2

14 November 2020 19: 03

Again, twenty-five dances with tambourines, performed by a gypsy camp on the eve of bargaining for the price of Su-57. The stupid, market trick of the gypsies is to cheat a horse in order to buy it cheaper.
Weasel the Ferocious

+1

15 November 2020 00: 26

Hysteria and envy.
1. Binder
  
  -4
  
  15 November 2020 05: 40
  
  And where is there a reason for envy?
  1. Voyager
    
    +2
    
    17 November 2020 10: 38
    
    The Su-57 is the most functional fighter today at a much more reasonable cost than its closest counterparts.
    1. Binder
      
      -3
      
      17 November 2020 13: 33
      
      So he does not exist in reality!
Sapsan136

+2

15 November 2020 22: 20

In the west, they can say HALVA 1000 times, it won't make it sweeter. So the F-35 will never be better than the Su-57. Only the F-57 can compete with the Su-22, but not the F-35.
Michael1950

0

19 November 2020 13: 13
Quote: Oleg Bratkov
The leadership of the F-22 and F-35 is highly questionable.

- Only for complete "dummies" in aviation.

It is assumed that they will be used against the Papuans, without any air defense ...

- The F-22 and F-35 are designed specifically to overcome / destroy the most advanced air defense / missile defense. The most developed powers.

... and the United States will scream all over the world about absolute superiority.

- If the enemy's planes fall, they will hit the timpani. And the opponents will scream.

I would like to remind you that the United States not only has never been on the moon, but in general has not flown into space for 20 years, after the flight of Gagarin.

- "Delirium of a gray mare on a moonlit night."

But from the very beginning they lied, lied and lied that "Mercury" and "Gemeni" are much better than "Unions", and "Apollo" finally were on the Moon. And what prevents them from continuing their false propaganda of American capitalism at the present time?

- You, layman, you just have no idea that besides the American program of landing a man on the moon (successful), there was also a Soviet program for landing on the moon, that in addition to Saturn-5 there was also an N-1 rocket, which tried to take off as many as 4 (four) times, there were Soviet cosmonauts - Leonov and Dzhanibekov, who were supposed to set foot on the lunar surface!

Leonov and Kubasov did visit the Apollo:

F-22 they did not dare to put up for sale

- The US Congress banned, for reasons of secrecy and preservation of US supremacy. Lockheed Martin were ready to sell them with pleasure, but it was not for them to decide.

... made the plane better, more technologically advanced, this is the F-35

- If the F-22 is the air supremacy plane, then the F-35 is the striker. They were supposed to form a new bunch, replacing the old F-15 / F-16 pair. And they replaced it. F-35 has already been produced over 600 units in 10 countries of the world.

... and be amazed at this huge American genius!

- Well, yes, there is something to marvel at ...

At the same supersonic, the F-35 has no cruise mode.

- Lies, you just don't know: the F-35 can fly for 11 minutes at a speed of 1.2M (1274 km / h), passing 234 kilometers in this mode without afterburner.

... and if it flies, the stealth coating crumbles.

- Well, this is just an outrageous lie - there, in Israel 22 F-35s fly (and fight) and nothing fell from one of them ...

And the F-22 has nothing to compare with, it was not sold to anyone

- That's what he calls it "unparalleled in the world"!

in fact, foreigners were never allowed on the Apollo, although they are supposedly three-seater

- Stop lying, see above, Apollo-Soyuz:

... and a dozen and a half foreigners flew on the Soyuz, including from the capitalist camp.

- And many Russian cosmonauts flew on Space Shuttles! Only they didn't tell you ...
Michael1950

-1

19 November 2020 13: 36

Quote: isofat
Quote: Bindyuzhnik
... American fifth-generation fighters F-22 and F-35 are successfully operated, perform combat missions and receive purely positive feedback from pilots of various states

Is this enough to draw conclusions?

- The F-22 has been in service for 15 years. Participated in dozens of large exercises and hundreds of small ones, including the most diverse international teams of the world's most advanced fighters. Six F-22s have been based at the Al Dhafra airbase in the UAE for many years, they patrol the Persian Gulf, frightening Iranian pilots to seizures over it, and cover their UAVs operating in that area. In Syria, during operations against ISIS, the F-22 dropped 2% from all bombs, while its main functions there were reconnaissance and patrol-controlling, for example, so that Syrian and Soviet planes did not bomb anyone east of the Tigris and Euphrates. Whoever sticks around - they promised to shoot down ...
F-35 in service up to 5 years. Tested on a number of serious exercises. He showed brilliant results, including air battles - 20.7: 1, on one of the Red Flags, against F-15, F-16, F-18. What else do you need from a drummer?
There is enough time and experience to draw conclusions. Or do you definitely need the Third World War to check?
Michael1950

0

19 November 2020 13: 42

Quote: Voyager
The Su-57 is the most functional fighter today at a much more reasonable cost than its closest counterparts.

- He is not needed by anyone, even the native MO, even the native Air Force. Everyone fights him off, "like the devil from incense," for an elementary reason: no one has proved that the Su-57 is superior in combat effectiveness, for example, to the Su-35S? At a price three times more for production and the devil knows how much more in operation ...
Michael1950

0

19 November 2020 13: 52

Quote: isofat
I found it to read - "On the method of comparing aviation technology"

https://kramtp.info/novosti/interesnoe/full/40415

- This is a technique for comparing aircraft of the 70s, hopelessly lagging behind the requirements of the time. The combat effectiveness of today's fighters is determined by completely different factors:
1. Stealth.
2. The secrecy of the radar, its perfection, the perfection of the RTR onboard station.
3. Situational awareness provided by electro-optical means.
4. The perfection of onboard electronic warfare stations - where they are installed (there are no electronic warfare stations on stealth).
5. The perfection of air-to-air missiles - the range of destruction, accuracy, noise immunity of ARGSN and thermal imaging seeker.
6. Perfection of sighting systems.
7. Network-centric avionics.
8. Flight performance.
Michael1950

0

19 November 2020 14: 08

Quote: cmonman
It is unclear when the second generation engine will be finished.

- Is there happiness in engines ?!
If you replace the F-22 engines with the F119-PW-100 engines on the F-229, will it lose much in combat capabilities? Almost nothing.
And if F57 engines are installed on the Su-119, how much will it get ?!
Michael1950

0

19 November 2020 14: 10

Quote: Oleg Bratkov
... Experts believe that the single-seat twin-engine Su-57 has not yet been brought to full combat readiness ...

What do the developers think?

- And the developers are developing, developing ...
Michael1950

0

19 November 2020 14: 15

Quote: taas
Actually, you are really engaged in pure sophistry - diverting the topic aside. This is not about the number of cars produced, but about the technical characteristics.
So far, only one Su-57 is planned (not counting the test ones), but it flies on old engines much faster than the F-35. The Hindus write about this characteristic.

- The fighter is evaluated according to its capabilities when meeting the enemy fighter to win / lose. The larger this fraction, the higher the combat effectiveness of the fighter.... Speed is by no means a decisive factor here today. (These are already advanced kids in kindergartens know). Otherwise, all the countries of the world would only do what they were chasing speed. An - no.
1. isofat
  
  0
  
  19 November 2020 15: 47
  
  Quote: Michael1950
  A fighter is evaluated according to its capabilities when meeting an enemy fighter to win / lose. The larger this fraction, the higher the combat effectiveness of the fighter.
  
  Michael1950... My dear, the fractions are in third grade. You are in the wrong place.
Michael1950

0

19 November 2020 14: 21

Moscow is accustomed to occupying a leading position in the field of military aircraft construction.

- Alas, - only in the articles of the GlavPUR ...