Such a different democracy: what are the differences between approaches in Russia and in the West


What do laundry detergent, cigarettes, chocolate and democracy have in common? Well, it would seem, what could be in common? And it is. Moreover, this list of comparable products can be easily added, for example, shampoos, yoghurts, coffee, clothes, shoes, machinery, even computer programs and ... social networks. Yes, in general, a lot more ... exported to us from the West. "Oh, that's it!" - the reader will say and, perhaps, will immediately object: after all, there were various Veche, popular gatherings, some forms of democracy, etc. in Russia, so that democracy is not only their Western prerogative and invention ...


Yes, that's right, and that's why it's not about that. It's about the difference between what's "for yourself" and for export to the rest of the world. And this difference, as you can see, is quite large. It was only in the USSR and the countries of the socialist camp that they did everything better for abroad than for themselves, in the world of developed capitalism everything was always strictly the opposite. And, apparently, this is correct. You always have to try harder for yourself ...

In "export" version


This is not the first time, first in the countries of Eastern Europe, and now in the Russian Federation, there are questions to various Western and / or transnational companies about the fact that the same products produced under the same brand are on the shelves the stores “there” and “here” quite sensitively differ in their quality and properties. "They are there" they call it quite nicely and streamlined (they always did it well!) - "a product adapted for an Eastern European consumer." It sounds good, but it is deciphered worse - this is the second grade, if in a simple way. Not exactly those original ingredients, not quite in the same proportion, with simplified production technology, and so on ...

If these are computer programs or social media platforms, then there is often limited functionality and / or the fact that IM is possible, but we cannot. That is, it is also “adapted for the Eastern European consumer,” and for some reason in the exact way that is considered necessary in the West. This is a typical double standard - for the "Untermenshes" (us, that is) it is one, and for the "superior race" - another. Doesn't it look like anything? The "higher race" just somehow forgot again how this usually ends - the "Untermenschs" grind all these "higher races" to hell, and then trample their banners ... But this is so, by the way ...

About the difference in tastes and cooking methods


So with democracy, praised by everyone, everything is about the same as with washing powder and instant coffee. In the countries of the so-called consolidated West, it has one shape, taste and color, and in the "export version" it is somewhat different. As well as the ways of introducing this very democracy, the rules of use, etc. For example, is it possible to imagine that the top government officials, say, France, Britain, Germany and the United States, agree on something, shake hands, sign the relevant papers, and the next day the same Macron was taken and thrown off with the help of a coup d'etat by the forces of local "yellow vests" supported by the Anglo-Americans and the Germans? So much so that he narrowly escaped death by escaping to Spain or Portugal? Hardly, right? Some kind of nonsense ... After all, dear people, representative states, world powers ... Again, the president legitimately elected by the people ... But in Ukraine, such an alignment is easy! Moreover, almost all the same respected characters from Europe are involved, and the same elected and real president of a sovereign state approximately the same size as France, but not Western. So you can - he's an "Untermensch", and he was chosen the same way, so why should all stand on ceremony with this?

Or another example is Brexit. The European Union is a kind of state education, with its own government, financial and tax system, a common legislative base, which includes various European countries, in fact delegating their sovereignty to the governing bodies of the EU, but retaining, if not independence, then some autonomy within it. And now one country - Great Britain, suddenly decided to hold a referendum within itself on the issue of leaving the EU. Have spent. And, to everyone's surprise, with a minimal advantage, but still the majority of the British were in favor of the exit. What started here! This actually gave rise to a lot of serious problems: financial, legislative, international, and political etc. I'm not even talking about the fact that in Britain itself, almost half of the population was against it, demanded a recount, a second referendum, to which, by the way, there were really questions ... But no. It was said that the democratic expression of the will of the people is sacred, and, whatever it costs the British and the rest of Europe, Brexit is. This is a developed civilization, human rights cannot be infringed upon.

But in Crimea in 2014, after exactly the same Western gentlemen destroyed a legitimate Ukrainian regime, and what began in the country began, a referendum was also held. Almost 98% of the population of the peninsula, which was then an autonomous republic, spoke in favor of secession from the then not even of Ukraine, but of what it turned into after a natural bloody coup. So what? Has anyone from the respected civilized democratic states admitted such an expression of the will of the people, moreover, in its overwhelming majority, where the number of people “against” was really on the verge of a mathematical error? Of course not! You never know what the "Untermensch" wanted there! Such a turnover did not fit into Western plans for Ukraine, so how can it be recognized? But absolutely unconstitutional actions, illegal seizure of power by force, with the blood of a civil war and the most real ethnic cleansing - that's all right. This is the "will of the people". And all because the local putschists proclaimed, first of all, pro-Western slogans.

Presidential elections were held in neighboring Belarus. For the sixth time, the same person won. And initially, no one doubted this. It is clear that there were questions about the process. In the United States, there were also Trump elections - the majority of people actually voted against, but in terms of the number of electors, he won with a minimal margin, but won. The people took to the streets, protested, expressed dissatisfaction. Police, batons, water cannons, firecrackers ... But they have such a democratic system. If they thought so, then so be it. And no observers from the world community (no one will let them go there!), Confirming the legitimacy of the process, you can vote on a driver's license, a credit card with a photo, or even in some places on parole. Like this. But we accept the results. And we don't recognize it in Belarus! Although, even according to the calculations of the local oppositionists themselves, Lukashenko won exactly more than half of the votes, at least, and his main opponent Svetlana Tikhanovskaya did not exceed 10%. Yes, the disaffected also took to the streets, shouting something. There were also police, firecrackers, etc. So what? Our western "partners" literally dragged Tikhanovskaya, who honestly lost the election, literally dragged her out of the border and, with a blue eye, FROM THERE took and announced the new president of the country, began to communicate with her, provide appropriate honors and hold receptions at the highest state level. Even the proposal to count the votes was refused. What for? And just as everyone behind the "Untermensch" has already decided that they still need there again? ... Oh, yes, they think that they have real democracy!

Russia has consistently been accused of interfering in electoral processes and influencing democratic procedures across virtually the entire West. It takes your breath away from how powerful we are! We installed Trump in America, and we also organized Brexit, intervened in Italy, the Czech Republic and Germany, tried to tear Catalonia away from Spain, and even the molecules of the oil products we export for export - and that pose a threat to Western democracies ... For this we are announced various sanctions, expel diplomats, confiscate property, cut off gas pipelines, carry out natural persecution in the press, accusing them of all mortal sins and declaring an empire of evil ... There is, however, no evidence. None at all, not even indirect.

And the only known principle of determining the culprit, if there is no evidence - the search for the one who got the maximum benefit from what happened, also does not work. Well, we got nothing from all this, except for problems. But the screams continue: “Don't you dare touch our democracy! Stop your pernicious influence on her! " This is all they tell us. And at the same time they themselves got into our democracy, as they say, and with their feet - NGOs are working at full capacity, the non-systemic opposition is openly supported by media and money, its most distinguished figures constantly communicate with Western diplomats and "visit" in Europe and the United States, various anti-government activists undergo real training both abroad and on our territory in special centers organized by Western "partners", disinformation and subversive literature is spreading. How so? And it's very simple - it's not “their real democracy”, in which one cannot interfere, it is another, second-rate, in which one can ...

And what about import substitution?


We have recently learned a lot of things to do ourselves, or just remembered how to do it. Including many things that were only imported to Russia quite recently.

We can cook good cheese, no worse than French and Italian. Yes, maybe with a different taste, but definitely not worse. And the sausage is wonderful. And the wine is excellent, with its own local flavor. And we have wonderful dumplings, our own, much better than some ravioli. And they eat their own salmon, and oysters, and other seafood. And dried meat is as good as jamon. And what they themselves did not know how, others were forced to teach and produce on their own territory, here. It is easier, cheaper, new jobs appear, and they are not dependent on someone abroad in this way, from sanctions, duties, fluctuations in the exchange rate, etc. Yes, imported is also nothing, so try it out hunting. But why eat it all the time, if eating your own is not worse, and maybe even better? I think that the situation with democracy is about the same.

Recently, we have dragged all sorts of things to ourselves in order to please the same West, to try to be "like they are there." But we are not like that, and they do not consider us so. So do we generally need THEM second-rate imports, including THEIR democracy? Isn't it time for all of its import instruments to be included in the tough sanctions list? All these NGOs, the "free" press, various blogger activists who are nothing more than agents of our direct enemy, through and through deceitful enemy media, etc. etc., wrap it up at the border like a truck with a sanctioned product, and the harmful contents are simply eliminated. In my opinion, this is the best way out. Otherwise, we will continue to eat second-rate products and live in the state system of the second-rate. Why do we need this, if we can do everything ourselves, without them and nothing worse?
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  1. Dmitry S. Offline Dmitry S.
    Dmitry S. (Dmitry Sanin) 11 October 2020 08: 43
    0
    A few examples from the surrounding reality and as a conclusion of a not at all short article - a rhetorical question: "Isn't it time?"
    Oh my God! What have I just read? What is this genre? Essay?
    1. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
      Pishenkov (Alexey) 11 October 2020 11: 58
      0
      ... thinking out loud. If you are in the field of high literature, such as Dostoevsky or Pushkin, then you are not here ... winked
      1. Volkonsky Online Volkonsky
        Volkonsky (Vladimir) 11 October 2020 19: 32
        +1
        Hi Lesha! I read and thought - either you wrote or Necropny, it turned out you. I rarely see you here, but Necropny is indefatigable. And he was also supported by a deep awareness of the events in Ukraine 6 years ago. But it turned out to be you. A good syllable, the correct formulation of the question, but not for this resource, where people are used to keeping abreast of the news, absorbing them diagonally, they do not want to read long texts, the titles are enough, and rather write a comment about how bad the author is and how he is to all of them tired. I have only one answer for them - here is paper, write better! But they are only enough for notes in the margins. In general, I suggested that Ruslan make headings, as in decent editions of the column of the Columists: Volkonsky, Pishenkov, Neukropny, Marzhetsky - let people immediately see the author and read the ideologically close to them. Or at least write the author's surname on top to divide the target audience. But it didn't go ...

        https://proza.ru/2020/10/11/213

        - special for yu! the text is long, I do not advise anyone else to even try to read it. And for those who do take the risk, it will remove all questions about who is to blame for the events of 6 years ago and whether the Ukrainian people themselves should be blamed for them.

        The text is composed of three. Didn't want to publish in parts. Only the third part is the answer to opponents. And then, part of the answer is here -

        http://proza.ru/2020/09/25/833

        (ending, last section). I'm not sure that half of the readers will master at least half of the text, but these are their problems, I write for myself. The text, because the long one did not get worse, there were just so many reproaches against me and against all Ukrainians, who themselves are to blame for what happened and what is happening, that you cannot answer all the claims at once, and the accusers do not have the fact that they will not arise new ones, which will still end with the words: "Get it out yourself, Putin did everything right, and if he did it differently, it would be worse!"

        It is impossible to prove anything if the opponent does not hear you. And he doesn't read! (none of the famous opponents even bothered to read the text, well, God bless him!)
        1. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
          Pishenkov (Alexey) 12 October 2020 09: 14
          0
          Thanks! I'll get acquainted with the text. And you're right about the columnists too. I am in favor, but I do not decide. and it may be more interesting for the audience - to read me of the one who interests you.
  2. steelmaker Offline steelmaker
    steelmaker 11 October 2020 09: 36
    -4
    You cannot praise yourself, no one will appreciate you.

    The article is of course correct. But where is the family and business? For some reason, EU and US officials are in no hurry to acquire a network of gas stations and shops in Russia. And they prefer to keep their money outside of Russia. Therefore, the author correctly said:

    so we will eat second-rate foods and live in the state system of second-rate.

    And I will add - while Putin rules!
    1. The comment was deleted.
    2. Oyo Sarkazmi Offline Oyo Sarkazmi
      Oyo Sarkazmi (Oyo Sarkazmi) 11 October 2020 10: 42
      +3
      Quote: steel maker
      For some reason, EU and US officials are in no hurry to acquire a network of gas stations and shops in Russia.

      Are you sure? American government officials have billions of dollars in Russian stocks. in the 90s, many factories were transferred to the management of an American manager for free. He came to Russia after bankruptcy in the United States, asked to get a job - bam the place of general manager, with a block of shares. That one has square eyes! After 2000, he quit his job with a golden parachute, and kept shares with 20% income as souvenirs. Therefore, from Sberbank to Gazprom, 20% of the shares are in American hands. Hotels and Sochi resorts are some of them 100% American.
    3. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
      Pishenkov (Alexey) 11 October 2020 11: 41
      +4
      while Putin rules!

      - and try, if it's not difficult for you, literally in two or three sentences to write what do you think will be good if Putin leaves?
      Well, there, who is in his place? What are the changes in politics, economics, etc.? And thus, as it were, supplement the article from your point of view. This is not a mockery, this is a real question. I'm really interested in what and who do people like you want instead of Putin? Back to the 90s? Another Boris Yeltsin? Someone like Navalny or Sobchak? To become a US protectorate, like Ukraine or the Baltics? What do you see or want to see ahead in this case?
      1. Cyril Offline Cyril
        Cyril (Kirill) 11 October 2020 14: 48
        -3
        - and try, if it's not difficult for you, literally in two or three sentences to write what do you think will be good if Putin leaves?

        Dear author, have you still not understood that it is not Putin's departure itself that is important, but observance of the very principle of the change of power? Do you know what this principle is and what is its advantage over lifelong or almost lifelong rule? No? This is the same even in schools, it seems.

        In one thing you are right - when Putin leaves, nothing good will happen. But he himself is to blame for this.
        1. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
          Pishenkov (Alexey) 11 October 2020 16: 12
          +3
          I personally can only see how much Russia has risen under Putin. What is he to blame - I don't see. It can only be that out of the chaos after the collapse of the USSR, he wants to pull the country out gradually, without repression, too sharp limit of ownership and new revolutions. Maybe it would be better.
          And about the change of power - it is changing. In Russia, the tsars also changed their policies. Who said that the government needs to be changed every 4 or 6 years? I see this result with my own eyes - temporary workers come, thinking about their own interests and ambitions, and not about the state. If the West is satisfied with this option, then let them live like this. And in the East, and not only in the Russian Federation, well, it does not work, even though you die! I AM FOR the change of power in a historical, evolutionary way. This is definitely closer to Russia. The time will come - it will change. Without any scheduled elections, which, especially in our time, are increasingly easier to manipulate or fake in someone's interests.
          1. Cyril Offline Cyril
            Cyril (Kirill) 11 October 2020 17: 06
            -3
            I personally can only see how much Russia has risen under Putin.

            Until about the beginning of the 10s - yes. then a period of stagnation began.

            What is he to blame - I don't see.

            In that I built a system tied to his personality.

            In Russia, the tsars also changed their policies.

            Here are just a couple of "buts":

            1. Monarchs are raised among the aristocracy, in ruling families. They are initially trained to rule. That is, even when one monarch leaves (himself, due to natural death or murder), he is replaced by another monarch. The law of succession ensured, albeit imperfect, but stability of this system.

            That is why, by the way, when Peter the Great canceled the decree on succession to the throne and did not manage (or did not want) to appoint a successor, an interesting period of palace coups began in Russia. And this period was not easy, despite the outward greatness of the Empire.

            2. Authoritarian systems like monarchies, where the monarch rules until his death (ideally), develop too slowly. The monarch began to rule already being a man with formed values ​​that cannot be changed. In other words, the development of such a state occurs only at the moment when one monarch replaces another. And between these events, the country has been stagnating for decades.

            But the development of the world itself (in the sense of human society) is constantly accelerating. If, say, a thousand years ago, changes took place over several tens or even hundreds of years, then already in the 19th century it took only 1 decade. And the absolute monarchy, like any other authoritarian form of government, just could not keep up with these changes.

            That is why, when at the beginning of the 20th century, the democratic countries of the West had already gone through the industrial revolution, it was just beginning in Russia.

            Who said that the government needs to be changed every 4 or 6 years?

            4-6 years is the optimal period, on the one hand, ensuring the stability of the system, and on the other, allowing the system to develop at a pace with historical progress.

            I see this result with my own eyes - temporary workers come, thinking about their own interests and ambitions, and not about the state.

            They do not come, but the people allow them to come. To avoid this, a developed civic culture, political self-awareness of the country's population itself is needed. It does not exist in Russia yet - and the system built by Putin does not contribute to the emergence of such a civil culture.

            And in the East, and not only in the Russian Federation, well, it does not work, even though you die!

            It's strange. Are Japan and South Korea not Eastern countries? There are quite a parliamentary republics with a turnover of power.

            I AM FOR the change of power in a historical, evolutionary way. This is definitely closer to Russia. The time will come - it will change. With no scheduled elections

            But your path does not lead to evolution, but to revolutions. You see, the world is changing very, very quickly. And a country with irremovable or slowly changing power simply cannot keep up with these changes. And as a result, your desire to "wait for the changes" leads to the accumulation of contradictions, and instead of real evolution you will get a revolution.
            1. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
              Pishenkov (Alexey) 12 October 2020 09: 29
              +2
              From the time of the collapse of the USSR until the 10s, I have not registered any upsurge, only decline and collapse, if yes, then I already asked you to tell what it was.
              In Russia, throughout history, politics has been tied to individuals. So it is and, apparently, it will be so in the foreseeable future. Can you remember what great statesman in Russia or the USSR appeared through elections?
              Putin is also not originally. But he came and the country went through changes, in a positive direction and NOT in a revolutionary way.
              Many times I hear these various clichés about democracy, democratic procedures, their values, and so on - that's all nonsense. Democracy is not an end in itself, but a tool for self-government of society, and one of many possible. A carpenter does not work with a hammer and a plane for the sake of the process of hammering in nails or removing shavings - they are tools to achieve a goal, to obtain the final result - a manufactured product, a chair or a cabinet ... And democracy is the same. NOT a goal - a tool to be used when needed and in the right way. Otherwise we will not produce anything, endlessly touched by the very cutting of shavings ...
              And then, if you are for democratic procedures, then it is, first of all, the will of the people. And if the majority of the people want to democratically choose a certain leader for themselves, why should this people be deprived of such an opportunity and they should be limited by something, for example, by time limits? Where is the logic? You do not like Putin, well, he will be re-elected when people like you become the majority. And while the people do not want - this is the basic principle of democracy.
              1. Cyril Offline Cyril
                Cyril (Kirill) 12 October 2020 10: 09
                -1
                In Russia, throughout history, politics has been tied to individuals. So it is and, apparently, it will be so in the foreseeable future. Can you remember what great statesman in Russia or the USSR appeared through elections?

                The fact of the matter is that in a normal, stable state this should not be so.

                Democracy is not an end in itself, but a tool for self-government of society, and one of many possible.

                Right. And at the moment, democracy is the most effective tool for managing society.

                And if the majority of the people want to democratically choose a certain leader for themselves, why should this people be deprived of such an opportunity and they should be limited by something, for example, by time limits?

                Because the people in Russia are not used to taking responsibility. "If not Putin, then who?" - a phrase that perfectly illustrates this quality of our population. Putin is chosen not because of his real achievements - they are in the past, moreover, very distant - but simply out of habit, because instead of normally participating in the life of their own country, people quickly choose a familiar face.

                Time limits are just an inoculation against such irresponsible behavior. When a familiar candidate can no longer legally participate in elections, the people willy-nilly have to look for another, which means they have to study candidates, their political programs, qualifications, potential, etc. This is civic consciousness.

                But if you need the people of Russia to continue to remain politically illiterate and spineless - ok.
                1. isofat Online isofat
                  isofat (isofat) 12 October 2020 10: 47
                  0
                  Quote: Cyril
                  And at the moment, democracy is the most effective tool for managing society.

                  Name these societies. smile
                  1. Cyril Offline Cyril
                    Cyril (Kirill) 12 October 2020 11: 09
                    0
                    Western Europe, USA, Japan, South Korea, Israel
                    1. isofat Online isofat
                      isofat (isofat) 12 October 2020 11: 46
                      0
                      The listed countries achieved their prosperity in a completely non-democratic way. Democracies have emerged there very recently.

                      Democracy is the worst form of government when you count all the others that have been put to the test from time to time.

                      Winston Churchill
                      1. Cyril Offline Cyril
                        Cyril (Kirill) 12 October 2020 19: 21
                        0
                        Democracy is the worst form of government when you count all the others that have been put to the test from time to time.

                        You even managed to copy the quote with a distortion that changes its meaning to the opposite :))

                        This is how Churchill sounded about democracy in reality:

                        "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.

                        What the translation means:

                        Democracy is the worst form of government except for all others

                        except translated from English means "except".

                        You would at least quote correctly.
                      2. Cyril Offline Cyril
                        Cyril (Kirill) 12 October 2020 19: 23
                        0
                        The listed countries achieved their prosperity in a completely non-democratic way.

                        Just democratic. Industrial revolution and rapid capitalist growth in these countries would have been impossible if they had retained absolutism or other forms of authoritarian rule.

                        This has already been analyzed thousands of times in history textbooks. Didn't you go to school? By the way, yes.
                      3. isofat Online isofat
                        isofat (isofat) 12 October 2020 20: 56
                        +1
                        CyrilThe last time you got into a rage, you called the modern democratic system a civil society and mentioned the concept of primitive democracy.
                        Now you speak of Democracy as a management tool.
                        Here's what I'm talking about:

                        Quote: Cyril
                        The modern democratic system, called civil society, differs from the primitive concept of democracy and suggests that ... ... ...

                        Quote: Cyril
                        And at the moment, democracy is the most effective tool for managing society.

                        I heard that it is possible to govern with the help of the Carrot and the Cane, now I know that Democracy will do too.

                        What do you mean by Democracy, I probably will never know, alas.

                        PS... Democracy is the worst form of government, with the exception of all the others that have tried, from time to time. (House of Commons of the English Parliament, November 11, 1947) quite accurate translation.
                      4. Cyril Offline Cyril
                        Cyril (Kirill) 12 October 2020 21: 11
                        0
                        The last time you got into a rage, you called the modern democratic system a civil society and mentioned the concept of primitive democracy.
                        Now you speak of Democracy as a management tool.

                        Everything is correct. And how does this contradict each other? Civil society is a developed form of democracy, which is a fairly effective effective element of state governance.

                        I heard that it is possible to govern with the help of the Carrot and the Cane, now I know that Democracy will do too.

                        Well, this just speaks of the limitedness of your knowledge :) I have already told you this many times :)

                        Democracy is the worst form of government excluding all otherswho have auditioned from time to time. (House of Commons of the English Parliament, November 11, 1947) quite accurate translation.

                        Right. And this statement is exactly the opposite of what you gave at the beginning:

                        Democracy is the worst form of government if take into account all the othersthat have been verified from time to time.
                      5. isofat Online isofat
                        isofat (isofat) 12 October 2020 21: 49
                        0
                        Cyril... Civil society and democratic system are different concepts. Civil society is not a form of democracy, a developed form or not, it does not matter at all.

                        I got excited about Churchill, I admit. You shouldn't have quoted him, you can't understand him, he's smart.

                        The country where he lived until now is a monarchy. Despite this, half of the world speaks English.
                      6. Cyril Offline Cyril
                        Cyril (Kirill) 12 October 2020 22: 02
                        0
                        Civil society and democratic system are different concepts. Civil society is not a form of democracy, a developed form or not, it does not matter at all.

                        Civil society is an attribute of a developed democratic system. There can be no civil society without a representative (that is, democratic) form of government, and there can be no developed democracy without a civil society.

                        I got excited about Churchill, I admit.

                        You and him "did not get excited", but corny misinterpreted his quote :) Call things by their proper names and take responsibility for your mistakes, but how small, honestly.

                        You shouldn't have quoted him, you can't understand him, he's smart.

                        Well, at least I don’t misrepresent his quotes, unlike some :)

                        The country where he lived until now is a monarchy.

                        Amendment - a constitutional monarchy in which the power of the monarch is limited democratically elected parliament and reduced to representative and symbolic functions.

                        Despite this, half of the world speaks English.

                        Bingo. And half of the world began to speak English just when the end of the absolute monarchy gave impetus to intensified modernization, as a result of which, from just a European power, Britain turned into an empire ruling half of the world.
                      7. isofat Online isofat
                        isofat (isofat) 12 October 2020 22: 18
                        0
                        Quote: Cyril
                        Civil society is an attribute of a developed democratic system.

                        You don't know anything at all. You are a bad student. What attribute? Civil society is primarily made up of people. And what about a democratic system then?

                        You can't even find and copy on the Internet? Cool!
                      8. Cyril Offline Cyril
                        Cyril (Kirill) 12 October 2020 22: 20
                        -1
                        Civil society is primarily made up of people.

                        Right :)

                        And what is a democratic system?

                        And the democratic system is a tool with the help of which these very people, who make up civil society, influence the policy of their state.

                        You know nothing at all

                        ... Said by a person who can't even copy a quote from the internet correctly :)
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                      10. The comment was deleted.
  • Dear sofa expert. 11 October 2020 16: 39
    +2
    and the observance of the very principle of the turnover of power?

    Principle for principle's sake?
    Why doesn't some English or Dutch queen relinquish the throne, giving it to someone else? It doesn't matter who, just out of principle .. and there at least the grass does not grow.)
    1. Cyril Offline Cyril
      Cyril (Kirill) 11 October 2020 16: 45
      -2
      Principle for principle's sake?

      Principle for the sake of system stability. When the system is tied to one person, after he leaves, this system becomes unstable. This time. Second, as historical practice shows, the irremovability of power leads to stagnation in the development of the state.

      Why doesn't some English or Dutch queen relinquish the throne, giving it to someone else? It doesn't matter who, just out of principle .. and there at least the grass does not grow.)

      This will probably be a revelation for you, but in constitutional monarchies, which include both the British and the Dutch, the monarch is very limited in power. In fact, the real ruler in these countries is the prime minister of parliament - and he is just changing.
      1. Dear sofa expert. 11 October 2020 17: 21
        +3
        Principle for the sake of system stability. When the system is tied to one person, after he leaves, this system becomes unstable.

        Then, following your own logic, stability is maintained until the person leaves, right?

        Then the frequent change of "person" is nothing more than a frequent series of instabilities.

        Where is the logic?)

        As historical practice shows, the irremovability of power leads to stagnation in the development of the state.

        Is there stagnation in Germany?

        in constitutional monarchies, which include both the British and the Dutch, the monarch is very limited in power.

        It does not matter. We care about the principle?
        From the principle it is necessary to change the monarchs. Otherwise, where is democracy?)
        1. Cyril Offline Cyril
          Cyril (Kirill) 11 October 2020 17: 41
          -3
          Then, following your own logic, stability is maintained until the person leaves, right?

          Right. But man is not eternal. And when the person on whom the political system is tied leaves, discord begins.

          Then the frequent change of "person" is nothing more than a frequent series of instabilities.

          This is so, but on one condition - if this person has all the fullness (or at least most) of the powers of power.

          In developed democracies, this moment is compensated by the fact that the power of the ruler (president or prime minister) is limited. Therefore, after this person leaves, the changes are not so radical as to lead to system instability.

          Thus, the stability of the system in such countries is a property of the system itself, and does not depend on a specific person.

          This can be roughly illustrated by an analogy with a ship. You can replace the captain with another with the same qualifications - the ship will not sink from this and will function as needed. Because the ship's unsinkability margin is inherent in its very design, and is not tied solely to the personality of the captain.

          A closer analogy is corporations. In large multinational corporations there is no ruler on whom absolutely the whole company is tied. The owner of the company, the CEO, the board of shareholders are both complementary and counterbalanced. If one of these elements "fails", then the rest will compensate, which determines the stability of the company itself. When its founder and owner Bill Gates resigned from the same "Microsoft" from the leadership positions, this practically did not affect the company.

          But when Jobs left Apple, it hit hard on the company's success - because it was largely tied to his personality. The management even had to bring it back in order to re-raise the firm. Then, after his death, when Tim Cook replaced the bright and charismatic Jobs, the company remains at a consistently high level.

          Is there stagnation in Germany?

          In Germany, the political system is not tied to Merkel.

          We care about the principle?

          It is you who care about the principle. I'm talking about the stability of the political system.
          1. Dear sofa expert. 11 October 2020 18: 06
            +3
            Right. But man is not eternal. And when the person on whom the political system is tied leaves, discord begins.

            Not forever. But why artificially, for the sake of some principles, create problems? In my opinion, like this: from good, good is not sought.
            As long as everything suits me, what's the point of changing it?

            In developed democracies, this moment is compensated by the fact that the power of the ruler (president or prime minister) is limited. Therefore, after this person leaves, the changes are not so radical as to lead to system instability.

            This is not true. I gave you a specific example - Germany.
            The chancellor's power is very little limited. Especially when the political field around is very diligently (including not very democratic) cleaned out.

            In Germany, the political system is not tied to Merkel.

            What are you?) Well, tell me then, who is it tied to in Germany?
            So far, all important, (and not very popular) political decisions, both inside the country and externally, have been made by Merkel alone.

            It is you who care about the principle. I'm talking about the stability of the political system.

            In Russia it is more than stable. Then what are you talking about, comrade?)
            1. Cyril Offline Cyril
              Cyril (Kirill) 11 October 2020 18: 18
              -1
              But why artificially, for the sake of some principles, create problems?

              First, changing one leader to another is not a problem in itself. Secondly, not for the sake of "principles", but for the sake of system stability.

              As long as everything suits me, what's the point of changing it?

              First, you are not the only citizen of this country. If you are satisfied, it does not mean that everyone else is satisfied.

              Secondly, you (well, or your descendants) HAVE to change the ruler, because, as I said, he is not eternal. And if you have not built a system that preserves stability regardless of the personality of the ruler, this change will be very painful.

              I gave you a specific example - Germany.
              The chancellor's power is very little limited. Especially when the political field around is very diligently (and not very democratic) cleaned out.

              The Chancellor's power in Germany is limited.

              According to Article 65 Annex 1 of the Basic Law (GG), the Federal Chancellor has the power to issue directives: he “defines the policy directives and is responsible for them”. Thus, he has the power to make the fundamental policy decisions of the federal government. However, the same article also prescribes the department principle (proposal 2) and the collegial principle (proposal 3) [2]. The first means that federal ministers run their ministries independently... The Chancellor cannot easily intervene in certain matters and ensure that his views are respected. However, according to the Federal Government's Rules of Procedure, he must be informed of all important projects in the ministry. The collegiate principle states that The College resolves differences on the part of the federal government, so the chancellor must submit to the federal government's decision in case of doubt.

              So far, all important, (and not very popular) political decisions, both inside the country and externally, have been made by Merkel alone.

              It was not she who received it, but the parliament.

              In Russia it is more than stable.

              In Russia, it is already beginning to be unstable even now. This time. Two - there will be "stability" in Russia only as long as Putin is at the helm. So? Or "after you - even a flood"?

              In general, the inability to think for the future has always been a feature of the majority of Russia's rulers. And the people too, unfortunately.
              1. Dear sofa expert. 11 October 2020 18: 46
                +3
                If you are satisfied, it does not mean that everyone else is satisfied.

                This is the problem of the rest. I can only speak for myself (as well as you)

                It was not she who received it, but the parliament.

                Nominally, yes. But in reality, the Chancellor's decision is automatically confirmed by the ruling coalition in the Bundestag, which is automatically the majority. Coalition members simply do not have the moral right to vote against the Chancellor's decision. Otherwise, the credibility of the chancellor and the coalition itself in general is called into question. You clearly underestimate the power of the German Chancellor.)
                1. Cyril Offline Cyril
                  Cyril (Kirill) 11 October 2020 18: 52
                  -2
                  This is the problem of the rest. I can only speak for myself (as well as you)

                  Right. And in a normal state, these "others" should have the same opportunities to solve their problems as you do.

                  But in reality, the Chancellor's decision is automatically confirmed by the ruling coalition in the Bundestag, which is automatically the majority.

                  If she (Merkel) was able to create such a coalition, this is possible. And this does not contradict the democratic principles of the structure of Germany.

                  You clearly underestimate the power of the German Chancellor.)

                  It is she who is clearly overestimated by you.
                2. Dear sofa expert. 11 October 2020 18: 59
                  +2
                  in a normal state, these "others" should have the same opportunities to solve their problems as you do.

                  - and they have them, but to have the "same" opportunities, you need to have "the same" number of votes - mathematics.
                  Going to the polls, they can cast their votes to those who suit them. Only now, being in the minority, it is very difficult to achieve a result in your favor. This is how your beloved democracy works.
                  The minority obeys the majority, and does not blather.)

                  If she (Merkel) was able to create such a coalition, this is possible. And this does not contradict the democratic principles of the structure of Germany.

                  I agree. Therefore, I am not criticizing her "eternal reign".
                  Changing rulers "because it's better this way" - These are your principles, not mine. )

                  It is she who is clearly overestimated by you.

                  Everyone has their own vision.
                3. Cyril Offline Cyril
                  Cyril (Kirill) 11 October 2020 19: 17
                  -1
                  and they have them, but to have the “same” opportunities, you need to have “the same” number of votes - mathematics.

                  Are falsifications of election results (moreover, at all levels) in the Russian Federation a secret only for you?

                  Only now, being in the minority, it is very difficult to achieve a result in your favor. That is how it is, your beloved democracy.
                  The minority obeys the majority, and does not blather.)

                  Actually, no. The modern democratic system, called civil society, differs from the primitive concept of democracy and presupposes that a compromise solution is to be found on this or that issue for both the winning majority and the losing minority.

                  But I was not talking about elections. I spoke about the turnover of power. It is needed simply because one and the same person ruling the country cannot effectively govern it throughout his entire life. Simply by virtue of human nature - the world and society are changing, while the human worldview is not.

                  Changing rulers "because it's better this way" - These are your principles, not mine. )

                  But in Germany, Merkel's power is limited, in Russia, Putin's power is practically nonexistent. Only by the desire not to spoil your ratings.
                4. isofat Online isofat
                  isofat (isofat) 11 October 2020 19: 32
                  0
                  Quote: Cyril
                  The modern democratic system, called civil society, differs from the primitive concept of democracy and suggests that ... ... ...

                  Cyril... I read your words carefully. They cost nothing. There is little logic. Again - a couple! smile

                  PS... Do not think that this quote alone is perplexing.
                5. Cyril Offline Cyril
                  Cyril (Kirill) 11 October 2020 19: 33
                  -4
                  I read your words carefully. they cost nothing. There is little logic. Again - a couple!

                  It's up to me to evaluate a person who does not know that analogy is one of the methods of argumentation in logic.
                6. isofat Online isofat
                  isofat (isofat) 11 October 2020 19: 49
                  +2
                  Quote: Cyril
                  It's up to me to evaluate a person who does not know that analogy is one of the methods of argumentation in logic.

                  Analogy not only in Logic is one of the elements of argumentation, my little-informed opponent.

                  It's easy for you to reveal to us primitive the concept of democracy? smile
                  Convince us that primitive concepts are within your reach.
                7. Cyril Offline Cyril
                  Cyril (Kirill) 11 October 2020 23: 02
                  -2
                  Analogy not only in Logic is one of the elements of argumentation, my little-informed opponent.

                  So I did not say that it was only in her. But in her too. And you denied it.

                  Isn't it easy for you to reveal to us the primitive concept of democracy?

                  It was expressed quite clearly by the respected sofa expert. Do you need to repeat for you to realize?
                8. Dear sofa expert. 11 October 2020 23: 26
                  +2
                  It was expressed quite clearly by the respected sofa expert. Do you need to repeat for you to realize?

                  Cyril, do not exaggerate what I said. What I said was intended in a semantic context, first of all for you. )
                9. Cyril Offline Cyril
                  Cyril (Kirill) 12 October 2020 21: 12
                  -2
                  Cyril, do not exaggerate what I said. What I said was intended in a semantic context, first of all for you.

                  So I'm not exaggerating this. You are exaggerating this, reducing the democratic system to a primitive "majority vote" :)
                10. Dear sofa expert. 12 October 2020 21: 15
                  +2
                  reducing the democratic system to a primitive "majority vote" :)

                  ??? How then, in your opinion, should the people make decisions? Nod at the TV screen?)))
                11. Cyril Offline Cyril
                  Cyril (Kirill) 12 October 2020 21: 46
                  -1
                  I'm not talking about the form of expressing my will.

                  I say that the "work" of the population in a developed democratic system does not consist solely in simply putting a tick in front of one of the candidates and / or points in the bill.

                  The work of the population in a developed democratic state consists in studying the political program of candidates, monitoring the fulfillment by a deputy (or president) of his promises, creating various instruments of this control, including trade unions, social movements, non-profit organizations (which everyone despises so much in Russia), etc. .d.

                  All this requires the population not only to read a pre-election leaflet once in several years, come to the polls and tick a box, but to CONSTANTLY raise the level of their political competence and legal identity.

                  Look at any Western country and you will see that a very high percentage of the population is in various social organizations. Even at the level of suburban settlements or urban areas. And, most importantly, these organizations do have a certain political weight, depending on their scale.

                  You can, for example, laugh at the same "Greenpeace" and criticize them (often - quite deservedly) for odious ideas and dubious means of achieving goals, but the fact remains - this organization has turned from a small handful of opponents of nuclear tests into a powerful organization influencing political solutions within the framework of not even countries, but the whole world.

                  Moreover, in the West, as well as in Japan and South Korea, children from childhood are attracted to active social activities. First, at the level of school clubs and the election of a class leader or a school representative, then, for high school students - in various public committees, conferences, etc. Moreover, the election of the same class leader does not take place like in our schools, at random - there are "candidates for the president "develop their own programs, draw up theses, present them, etc.

                  Even such a seemingly ridiculous school or student ritual, such as initiation into high school students or members of some school club, is important - namely, the formation of the initiate's sense of belonging to the elite. And this is a very, very powerful incentive.

                  This is how an active and competent political class is formed.

                  Paradoxically, in the USSR they understood this, and that is why there was a pioneer organization (for children), the Komsomol (for older young people). The only problem was that these undoubtedly useful organizations were embedded in a one-party and authoritarian system of government that excludes or seriously restricts pluralism and competition.

                  You, on the other hand, reduce the role of the population in a democracy to only one vote every 5-6 years. While it is only the FINAL result, the tip of the socio-political iceberg.

                  With this attitude, it is not surprising that the democratic system does not work in Russia.
                12. Dear sofa expert. 12 October 2020 21: 53
                  +2
                  The work of the population in a developed democratic state consists in studying the political program of candidates, monitoring the fulfillment by a deputy (or president) of his promises, creating various instruments of this control, including trade unions, social movements, non-profit organizations (which everyone despises so much in Russia), etc. .d ...

                  Oh my god ... what nonsense.
                  Cyril .. who put all this nonsense into your head ???
                  You yourself lived in a "developed democratic state" ???
                  Damn, I have no words)) I thought you were older.
                13. isofat Online isofat
                  isofat (isofat) 12 October 2020 22: 06
                  +2
                  Dear Couch Expert, it is he who is so amused, mocking at the same time. Chat with 123 about this wrapper.
                14. Dear sofa expert. 12 October 2020 22: 28
                  +2
                  Chat with 123 about this wrapper.

                  Thank you for the advice, I myself already know this candy wrapper, I just did not think that everything was running so far there.) A man has read somewhere all sorts of fairy tales about "lace panties", and thinks that now "the truth will be carried to the world." )
                  Well, at his age it is still forgivable. Grows up, understands more.
                15. isofat Online isofat
                  isofat (isofat) 12 October 2020 22: 36
                  +2
                  It's not neglected, pros. With age, you are mistaken or he is not alone.
            2. Cyril Offline Cyril
              Cyril (Kirill) 12 October 2020 22: 15
              -3
              Oh my god ... what nonsense.

              This "nonsense" makes Western states more successful than ours :)

              Cyril .. who put all this nonsense into your head ???

              Education. Normal higher education.

              You yourself lived in a "developed democratic state" ???

              Unfortunately not.

              Damn, I have no words))

              Then why are you trying to argue?

              I thought you were older

              I intellectually match my 30s.
            3. Dear sofa expert. 12 October 2020 22: 23
              +2
              I intellectually match my 30s.

              Clear.
              That's it, I have no more questions for you.
              And I'm not trying to argue with you anymore. )
            4. Cyril Offline Cyril
              Cyril (Kirill) 12 October 2020 23: 51
              -3
              And I'm not trying to argue with you anymore. )

              Good. Your drain has been counted
          2. Dear sofa expert. 13 October 2020 10: 03
            +1
            You yourself lived in a "developed democratic state" ???

            Unfortunately not.

            If you're so sorry, why don't you live there?
          3. Cyril Offline Cyril
            Cyril (Kirill) 13 October 2020 10: 08
            -2
            I am not able to move yet. Plus, in the developed democracies, there is a high level of competition, which I objectively cannot handle.
          4. Dear sofa expert. 13 October 2020 10: 22
            +1
            I am not able to move yet. Plus, in the developed democracies, there is a high level of competition, which I objectively cannot handle.

            Take advantage of Navalny's experience, for example. Go out into the street and shout loudly: It seems that Putin poisoned me with a “newcomer”!)
            They will also send a personal plane for you.
            Well, maybe you will have to lie down in the clinic for a week, (by the way, this will not hurt you) for then ... freedom!)

            As for competition, fear has big eyes. The devil is not so terrible as you are painted.

            You argue your conclusions with higher education?
            Well, decide whether you have it or not.
          5. Cyril Offline Cyril
            Cyril (Kirill) 13 October 2020 10: 43
            -2
            what does my education have to do with it?
          6. Dear sofa expert. 13 October 2020 11: 08
            +2
            what does my education have to do with it?

            Well, you yourself refer to it

            Cyril .. who put all this nonsense into your head ???

            Education. Normal higher education.

            That is, to carry all this infantile nonsense here on the site - is this all that higher education gave you?

            But then the competition is probably too expensive for you here too.
            You do not think that opposite to you there may be also "not quite dense" people sitting.
            You just can't imagine how ridiculous you look in your blind "ecstatic servility" before everything Western? Moreover, when, in principle, no one argues with you about certain merits of “developed democracies”.
            You remind a person who is trying to tell another, the same person, about God, as if you were something about him. you may know more.). You are ridiculous.
          7. Cyril Offline Cyril
            Cyril (Kirill) 13 October 2020 14: 09
            -3
            Well, you yourself refer to it

            I referred to it in the answer to a completely different question :)

            You do not think that opposite to you there may be also "not quite dense" people sitting.

            Yeah, one does not know the basics of logic and cannot even copy a quote without distortion, the other says one thing at first, and then refutes himself in the comments :) Well, such "not dense", well, where to go :)

            all this infantile nonsense

            You can call the system of training political cadres in the West that I have described as "infantile nonsense" as much as you like, but only concrete facts show that it works and works effectively :)

            in your blind "ecstatic servility" before everything Western?

            You see some kind of servility there. where it is not. There are specific effective tools for management and training of political personnel in the West. This efficiency is proven by facts. It would be better to adopt and adapt them to Russian reality, but the "not the most dense" begin to carry some kind of nonsense about the alleged impossibility of adapting them to Russian reality :)

            Moreover, these same "not particularly dense" admire the USSR, in which the same pioneer was a copy of the Western scout movement, and socialism as an ideology in general is a product of Western European political and philosophical thought.

            Moreover, when, in principle, no one argues with you about certain merits of “developed democracies”.

            Yes laaaadno?) Really nobody argues? Do you read comments with your eyes or with some other body parts?
          8. The comment was deleted.
          9. The comment was deleted.
          10. The comment was deleted.
  • isofat Online isofat
    isofat (isofat) 12 October 2020 21: 54
    +2
    Cyril... The democratic system works in Russia. smile
  • Cyril Offline Cyril
    Cyril (Kirill) 12 October 2020 22: 17
    -3
    Its imitation works in Russia. We are not the USSR, of course, the population now has more levers of influence on the policy of the state, but up to the level of development of civic consciousness in countries with developed democracy, our population (and the state) will still grow and grow.
  • isofat Online isofat
    isofat (isofat) 12 October 2020 22: 32
    +1
    In the USA imitation. The democratic system works in Russia. Works successfully.
  • Dear sofa expert. 11 October 2020 21: 29
    +2
    It's up to me to evaluate a person who does not know that analogy is one of the methods of argumentation in logic.

    Weak, Cyril, for a troll of your level, weak. You are not "Arkharovets", after all, what would you get personal?)
  • Cyril Offline Cyril
    Cyril (Kirill) 11 October 2020 23: 04
    -2
    You are not "Arkharovets", after all, what would you get personal?)

    Where did I get personal? I just said that I do not need an assessment of my ability to debate from a person who messes with the basics of the theory of argumentation.
  • Dear sofa expert. 11 October 2020 23: 23
    +2
    Where did I get personal? I just said that I do not need an assessment of my ability to debate from a person who messes with the basics of the theory of argumentation.

    Nobody messes with anything. The man was right, you are often brought into superficial demagoguery. Cling to the secondary to get away from the essence. I noticed these tricks of yours too.
  • Cyril Offline Cyril
    Cyril (Kirill) 11 October 2020 23: 35
    -2
    Nobody messes with anything.

    Denying that analogy is a generally accepted method of reasoning in logic is not "crap"?

    Ok, I have no more questions.

    The man was right, you are often brought into superficial demagoguery.

    Only no one has yet presented proof of this "demagoguery" :)

    Cling to the secondary to get away from the essence.

    Yeah, a good attempt to justify the fact that your mental constructions run into contradictions in details :)
  • Dear sofa expert. 11 October 2020 23: 50
    +2
    Yeah, a good attempt to justify the fact that your mental constructions run into contradictions in details :)

    When the point is clear, the details don't make sense
  • Cyril Offline Cyril
    Cyril (Kirill) 12 October 2020 08: 53
    -2
    When the point is clear, the details don't make sense

    laughing If the details of a phenomenon or object contradict its essence, it means that the essence is NOT clear to you.
  • isofat Online isofat
    isofat (isofat) 12 October 2020 09: 39
    +1
    Quote: Cyril
    If the details of a phenomenon or object contradict its essence, it means that the essence is NOT clear to you.

    Are the details of the phenomenon or object contrary to its essence? It's a lie. Details of a phenomenon or an object never contradict its essence.

    But anything can follow from a lie, while a statement formed in the form of an implication remains true.

    Your claim is based on a lie.

    PS. Have you learned the basics of reasoning to cheat people?
  • Cyril Offline Cyril
    Cyril (Kirill) 12 October 2020 09: 59
    -2
    Are the details of the phenomenon or object contrary to its essence? It's a lie. Details of a phenomenon or an object never contradict its essence.

    This happens all the time for you and the Couch Expert :) It's not my fault.
  • Dear sofa expert. 11 October 2020 20: 19
    +3
    Are falsifications of election results (moreover, at all levels) in the Russian Federation a secret only for you?

    Yes, still a secret. But you can certainly lift the veil of mystery?
    How, specifically, can you confirm your, so far unfounded, accusations of falsification?
    Otherwise, you can say so indefinitely, until the result matches your expectations.)

    Actually, no. The modern democratic system, called civil society, differs from the primitive concept of democracy and presupposes that a compromise solution is to be found on this or that issue for both the winning majority and the losing minority.

    How's that?)) In general, a democratic system means making decisions by voting. How, in this case, the minority can defend their interests? What are the tradeoffs ?? What are you talking about now?)))

    I spoke about the turnover of power. It is needed simply because one and the same person ruling the country cannot effectively govern it throughout his entire life.

    As you yourself correctly noted, then (formally) a person is not alone in control. In Germany it is the Bundestag, in Russia the Parliament. There people change more often, do you think?)

    But in Germany, Merkel's power is limited

    What are you talking about? Didn't have time to google it?) Well, I'll help you.

    The Federal Chancellor is elected by the Bundestag (German Parliament) for a term of 4 years and can only be removed from office before the expiration of his term through a constructive vote of no confidence. According to the Constitution of the Federal Republic of Germany, one and the same person can serve as Federal Chancellor for an unlimited number of terms.

    Wiki
  • Cyril Offline Cyril
    Cyril (Kirill) 11 October 2020 23: 31
    -2
    How, specifically, can you confirm your, so far unfounded, accusations of falsification?

    https://www.rosbalt.ru/like/2019/12/18/1819140.html

    This is the result of a 5 second google search.

    http://zvzda.ru/articles/d6e172f3961e

    - and here about how they falsify and how these falsifications are revealed.

    How's that?)) In general, a democratic system means making decisions by voting. How, in this case, the minority can defend their interests? What are the tradeoffs ?? What are you talking about now?)))

    I beg your pardon, do you know how the modern parliament works, how the interests of various social groups are represented in it?

    Do you think that everything is decided solely by the majority of votes for or against? That's what I'm talking about, that this is a primitive understanding of the democratic system.

    Begin to study the issue at least with what are the systems for electing deputies to parliament, for example. You will discover a lot of interesting and at the same time very difficult.

    You yourself cited Merkel as an example, who had to create coalitions in parliament to form a government? To form this coalition, you first need to negotiate with various political forces - and these are exactly compromises. Only under favorable conditions for all parties will they unite into a coalition. This is precisely the consequence of the fact that modern democracy is much more difficult than simply "voting for and against."

    What are you talking about? Didn't have time to google it?) Well, I'll help you.

    AND? where is it said here that the power of the German Chancellor is absolute and he has the right to do whatever he wants?
  • Dear sofa expert. 11 October 2020 23: 43
    +2
    To form this coalition, you first need to negotiate with various political forces -

    Yeah. Divide ministerial "portfolios")
    Are you still a child? Don't know the goals of the policy?)

    What are you talking about? Didn't have time to google it?) Well, I'll help you.
    AND? where is it said here that the power of the German Chancellor is absolute and he has the right to do whatever he wants?

    Oh how weak .. remind you what I answered?

    But in Germany, Merkel's power is limited (and here you meant the length of time in power)

    What are you talking about? Didn't have time to google it?) Well, I'll help you.

    You know, Cyril .. leave your cheap gimmicks for others .. I still have a clear head, and I still have a thread of thought.
  • Cyril Offline Cyril
    Cyril (Kirill) 11 October 2020 23: 48
    -2
    Yeah. Divide ministerial "portfolios")
    Are you still a child? Don't know the goals of the policy?)

    But in order to divide these portfolios, the parties still have to agree.

    Enlighten me, what are the goals of politics?

    Oh how weak .. remind you what I answered?

    But in Germany, Merkel's power is limited (and here you meant the length of time in power)

    belay No, I did not mean the terms, but the powers. That's why I cited an excerpt from the Basic Law (GG).

    Enough for me to think out something and then refute your own ideas :)

    I still have a clear head, and I do not lose the thread of thought.

    Even not noticeable :)
  • Dear sofa expert. 11 October 2020 23: 52
    +3
    Enlighten me, what are the goals of politics?

    There are three of them:

    - get power
    - hold on to power
    - exercise power

    Do you know others?
  • Dear sofa expert. 11 October 2020 23: 55
    +2
    No, I didn't mean terms, but powers

    You are disingenuous, we talked about the timing.

    But I was not talking about elections. I spoke about the turnover of power. It is needed simply because one and the same person ruling the country cannot effectively govern it throughout his entire life. Simply by virtue of human nature - the world and society are changing, while the human worldview is not.

    Changing rulers "because it's better this way" - These are your principles, not mine. )

    But in Germany, Merkel's power is limited, in Russia, Putin's power is practically nonexistent.

    - here is the full text of your chatter.)

    "Even not noticeable :)"

    Apparently not given.)
  • Cyril Offline Cyril
    Cyril (Kirill) 12 October 2020 19: 14
    -1
    You are disingenuous, we talked about the timing.

    Right. And if you read my comments carefully, you would see that with regard to the German Chancellor, I wrote that with unlimited terms of office, his powers are limited.

    And in Russia, the president is practically unlimited in terms of both powers and terms.

    Apparently not given.)

    you, unfortunately, yes
  • isofat Online isofat
    isofat (isofat) 11 October 2020 23: 49
    +2
    Dear Couch Expert, whom you just do not meet on our site.

    Recently I spoke with a person with two higher educations and a high IQ. And I got a sense of pride for our country and its education system. Quite ordinary citizens of Russia communicated with him on equal terms.

    And today it turned out that I am arguing with a person who owns the Basics of the Theory of Argumentation. Interestingly, I didn't even suspect that.

    PS. Goodnight! smile
  • Cyril Offline Cyril
    Cyril (Kirill) 13 October 2020 14: 42
    0
    And today it turned out that I am arguing with a person who owns the Basics of the Theory of Argumentation. Interestingly, I didn't even suspect that.

    Of course, they did not suspect :) After all, you do not own them.

    I can't even copy and paste quotes without perverting, you have to double-check everything for you and poke a pug into the truth
  • isofat Online isofat
    isofat (isofat) 11 October 2020 20: 15
    +2
    Cooking, Slick shorki dug on the hinge

    It is written in Russian, but for some reason nothing is clear.

    It seems to me that you put your meaning in phrases Cyriloften conflicting. And the liberals have a tongue without bones. smile
  • Fourth Horseman Offline Fourth Horseman
    Fourth Horseman (Fourth Horseman) 11 October 2020 18: 09
    +4
    Since the beginning of the XXI century, Africa has experienced 13 coups with a "change of power"
    Democracy in Africa !!!
    And in Germany, an authoritarian dictator, a Komsomol member, has been in power for 15 years! Angelka Merkel!
    1. Cyril Offline Cyril
      Cyril (Kirill) 11 October 2020 18: 22
      -2
      Since the beginning of the XXI century, Africa has experienced 13 coups with "turnover of power".
      Democracy in Africa !!!

      In Africa, there are tribal squabbles that have nothing in common with the democratic system.

      And in Germany, an authoritarian dictator, a Komsomol member, has been in power for 15 years! Angelka Merkel!

      She's not authoritarian.

      Try to be more witty, now you're not doing well.
      1. Fourth Horseman Offline Fourth Horseman
        Fourth Horseman (Fourth Horseman) 12 October 2020 04: 54
        0
        Who cares if there are squabbles or not?
        The change of power is a fact!
        In addition to Africa, there is also Kyrgyzstan. There, too, turnover, democracy and all things ..)
  • Boragl Offline Boragl
    Boragl (Boragl) 12 October 2020 06: 34
    +1
    The change of power was just invented for second-class people. It is very convenient, the person actually started to do something for the country, and not for the Western jackals. Bach, elections, and that's it, the necessary and useful sits, then the country is derbanit.
    1. Cyril Offline Cyril
      Cyril (Kirill) 12 October 2020 20: 41
      0
      The change of power was just invented for second-class people.

      That is, the same Americans who (in the opinion of local "statesmen") have imposed "rotten democracy" on the whole world, consider themselves second-class people? Because they have a limit on the terms of office for one person, moreover, not only in a row, but in general.
  • cmonman Offline cmonman
    cmonman (Garik Mokin) 11 October 2020 16: 18
    -2
    - and try, if it's not difficult for you, literally in two or three sentences to write what do you think will be good if Putin leaves?

    In a democratic country, nothing will change with the departure of the president. Rather, the president will change something a little economically, but the system will continue to work smoothly. But in a dictatorial country, a change of leader can lead to anything. In Russia, after the change of the dictatorship of the CPSU, first there was an upsurge, and then, to replace the dictatorship of the party, came the dictatorship of one person with a manual Duma and courts.
    Here is the answer to your question - if the president is in charge of EVERYTHING in the country, and he, the president, leaves, the result is unpredictable. But you don't even ask yourself a question: is such a government democratic?
    And do not drag in here Navalny or Sobchak! Putin did his best to prevent competition (or democracy) in the elections.
    Perhaps this situation suits you, but what about the rest?
    1. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
      Pishenkov (Alexey) 11 October 2020 16: 24
      +3
      In Russia, after the change of the dictatorship of the CPSU, first there was an upsurge, and then, to replace the dictatorship of the party, came the dictatorship of one person with a manual Duma and courts.

      - and can you tell me, p-hundred, in what years, in the period you described, in the Russian Federation "there was a rise" and what was it. ???
      And then something I did not notice him. I noticed where the country has failed during this time, yes. Let's take it out now. And for the rest - see the comment to a colleague above, about the turnover of power ...
      1. Cyril Offline Cyril
        Cyril (Kirill) 11 October 2020 17: 09
        -3
        And then something I did not notice him.

        But in vain. It was in the 90s that Russian enterprises, albeit in a very difficult way, began to switch to the production of competitive and high-quality products.
        1. Dear sofa expert. 11 October 2020 21: 31
          +2
          It was in the 90s that Russian enterprises, albeit in a very difficult way, began to switch to the production of competitive and high-quality products.

          Please voice the name of this product?
          1. Cyril Offline Cyril
            Cyril (Kirill) 11 October 2020 22: 58
            -1
            automotive and pharmaceutical products, for example.
            1. Dear sofa expert. 11 October 2020 23: 18
              +1
              automotive and pharmaceutical products, for example.

              For the sake of ??)
              1. Cyril Offline Cyril
                Cyril (Kirill) 12 October 2020 00: 10
                -1
                For the sake of what? You told you to name specific types of goods - I answered
        2. Boragl Offline Boragl
          Boragl (Boragl) 12 October 2020 06: 45
          +1
          Yeah ... have you started to bodyize butter with vegetable? Sewing shoes from dermantine? Add baking powder to bread and preservatives to milk? It was in the 90s that the industry and the army were plundered and sold under the hammer. You call this the release of high-quality and competitive products ?? And let's have a couple of examples of such a domestic product released in the 90s? Weak ??
          1. Cyril Offline Cyril
            Cyril (Kirill) 12 October 2020 08: 52
            -1
            Yeah ... have you started to bodyize butter with vegetable?

            You are confusing spread and butter. Both products are manufactured to official standards. In the first, animal fats are replaced or supplemented with vegetable fats, in the second - not.

            Sewing shoes from dermantine?

            It was also sewn from dermantine in the USSR. True, in the USSR, dermantin was of poor quality.

            Add baking powder to bread and preservatives to milk?

            It depends on what kind of bread you are talking about. And milk is preserved by pasteurization.
        3. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
          Pishenkov (Alexey) 12 October 2020 09: 46
          +3
          The overwhelming majority of Russian enterprises ceased to exist in the 90s. And qualified workers and engineers either got drunk or traded in the markets. I don't know how old you are, but I remember all that. And as a grub I don't remember how in shoe stores there were only felt slippers, and in food stores there was only canned seaweed, reflected in the mirrors behind the shelves and creating an appearance. geometric progression from the pyramids of cans. AND EVERYTHING! It's a pity that I didn't take a picture then, otherwise the children don't believe. And abroad they were ashamed of their passport, because Russia was associated there only with vodka, bandits and prostitutes. What kind of competitive products are you talking about? Cooperative "down jackets" stuffed with ladies' tampons instead of feathers with the inscription Adidas? Diluted gasoline, for which there were lines for half a day? Lada models 70s assembled only so that they could drive, even without chrome parts for the sake of economy?
          If you need such a lift, then I certainly won't! I am for Putin, under whom both ships and planes began to be built again, and the auto industry was somehow raised, bringing in imported technologies, and everything else. And in the 90s, only FROM the Russian Federation dragged everything that was possible ... people, resources, technology ...
          1. Cyril Offline Cyril
            Cyril (Kirill) 12 October 2020 09: 59
            -1
            In the 90s, Russian enterprises in the vast majority ceased to exist

            Of course, because in terms of product quality, production organization and other characteristics, they could not compete with Western ones. In fact, only military products were produced in the USSR of good quality. You can also include agricultural here. And that's all. Clothes, footwear, consumer goods in the USSR were inferior in quality. and for variety. When Russia entered the world market, all these products turned out to be of no use to anyone - therefore, many enterprises closed.

            I am for Putin, under whom both ships and planes began to be built again, and the auto industry was somehow raised, bringing imported technologies, and everything else

            So you yourself answered your own question :)

            It was in the 90s that Russian enterprises began to switch to new production technologies. Yes, many closed down, unable to compete - this is how it should be.
    2. isofat Online isofat
      isofat (isofat) 11 October 2020 16: 39
      +2
      Quote: cmonman
      But in a dictatorial country, a change of leader can lead to anything.

      cmonman... In the US elections this year, it remains to wait quite a bit. However, it is already clear that your country is "sausage".

      PS... So let's check the United States for dictatorship. smile
    3. Dear sofa expert. 11 October 2020 17: 05
      +3
      In a democratic country, nothing will change with the departure of the president.

      Then why is he needed at all - the president?))

      Is such a government democratic?

      Should it be? What does your notorious democracy give you personally in your country?
      The right to choose one of the two presidents slipped to you by someone there?
      Well, last time you chose between - an old woman who has survived from the mind and body - the wife of the former president-swindler (Lewinsky), and an arrogant upstart - a billionaire, too, of advanced pre-demise age.
      Was everyone satisfied and happy?
      And that's all that your democracy was able to give you ???

      Perhaps this situation suits you, but what about the rest?
      1. Cyril Offline Cyril
        Cyril (Kirill) 11 October 2020 18: 07
        -3
        Then why is he needed at all - the president?))

        Run the state.

        Should it be? What does your notorious democracy give you personally in your country?

        Their country "notorious democracy" gave almost 250 years of sustainable development, with the exception of the Civil War. However, the Civil War also did not particularly affect the development of the United States.

        Well, last time you chose between - an old woman who has survived from the mind and body - the wife of the former president-swindler (Lewinsky), and an arrogant upstart - a billionaire, too, of advanced pre-demise age.
        Was everyone satisfied and happy?
        And that's all that your democracy was able to give you ???

        Exactly. Regardless of who became president there, their country did not plunge into civil war.
        1. Dear sofa expert. 11 October 2020 18: 09
          +2
          except during the Civil War.

          "The Great Depression" was accidentally missed, or is this infa missing in the training manual?)

          By the way, speaking of economic crises, there were seven of them in the United States!

          https://investtalk.ru/prochee/sem-ekonomicheskih-krizisov-v-ssha-i-ih-osobennosti
          1. Cyril Offline Cyril
            Cyril (Kirill) 11 October 2020 18: 24
            -3
            "The Great Depression" was accidentally missed, or is this infa missing in the training manual?)

            The Great Depression did not lead to the collapse of the US political system.

            By the way, speaking of economic crises, there were seven of them in the United States!

            AND? None of them led to the collapse of the US political system.
            1. Dear sofa expert. 11 October 2020 18: 50
              +2
              The Great Depression did not lead to the collapse of the US political system.

              But I almost did.)

              Nor did Putin's rule lead to the collapse of Russia's political system.
              What is the essence of the claim?
              1. Cyril Offline Cyril
                Cyril (Kirill) 11 October 2020 18: 54
                -2
                But I almost did.)

                Who told you this?

                Nor did Putin's rule lead to the collapse of Russia's political system.

                As long as he is at the helm, yes. So?
                1. Dear sofa expert. 11 October 2020 20: 03
                  +3
                  Who told you this?

                  Read. It shouldn't matter to you. For that, if someone asks you who told you this, you can safely answer: Dear sofa expert.)))

                  As long as he is at the helm, yes. So?

                  We will see. Maybe he will have time to prepare a successor, or maybe someone will come to power who then you will like even less.
                  Although you have a real chance: Will you try to become the next president of Russia?
                  And what, your self-conceit is ogogo .. in google quickly find answers. Go for it.
                  Otherwise, just criticizing others is somehow not constructive.)
                  1. Cyril Offline Cyril
                    Cyril (Kirill) 12 October 2020 00: 14
                    -2
                    Was reading.

                    Where did you read it?

                    Maybe he will have time to prepare a successor, or maybe someone will come to power who then you will like even less.

                    That's right - "maybe". A normally functioning state system does not depend on it.

                    Although you have a real chance: Will you try to become the next president of Russia?

                    What for? I have never and nowhere expressed a desire to be the president of Russia. That does not negate my right to evaluate the state system of the country in which I grew up and live. And which I pay taxes.
                  2. Dear sofa expert. 12 October 2020 08: 15
                    +1
                    Which does not negate my right to evaluate the state system of the country,

                    Ah Cyril, how boring you are. Rambover is not your relative?)))

                    In short:

                    Recognition, observance and protection of human and civil rights and freedoms is the duty of the state.

                    You are RIGHT and FREE!)))

                    Rest for now.
      2. Dear sofa expert. 11 October 2020 18: 13
        +2
        Exactly. Regardless of who became president there, their country did not plunge into civil war.

        But here, if I were you, I would not be so optimistic.)
        Do not count your chickens before they are hatched? Let's wait until the elections, then we'll find out what and where plunged.)
        1. Cyril Offline Cyril
          Cyril (Kirill) 11 October 2020 18: 25
          -3
          Well wait, I don’t forbid.
  • steelmaker Offline steelmaker
    steelmaker 11 October 2020 10: 23
    -5
    A bad shame is unknown, thoughtfulness does not suit such person,
    if only now to snatch, humiliate and smear,
    such a cute scoundrel.
    The scoundrel is short-sighted, he thinks small, he is a fool.
    Only good manners will help
    to patch a hole in the mind.
    A set of sins - his platform, support is unsteady, unreliable,
    what is better to take or give, this in life is not understood.
    The devil is swinging the swing, the weeping wall is getting closer,
    blow and he is no longer a horse,
    and poor little nag.
  • Oyo Sarkazmi Offline Oyo Sarkazmi
    Oyo Sarkazmi (Oyo Sarkazmi) 11 October 2020 10: 54
    +6
    Actually, no double standards. There is the democracy of the metropolis, and there is the democracy of the colonies. England has a parliament for 1000 years. So democratic. But English democracy in Ireland, India and the American colonies extended only to landowners and army officers.
    The rest - even if you have communism, with complete equality and free food - until you accept a Gauleiter from the metropolis - not democrats.
    Here in Ukraine, the list of CEC members, in the Zelensky elections, was completely determined at the American embassy. And the Ukrainian Rada did not add or take away a single person. This means democracy.
  • steelmaker Offline steelmaker
    steelmaker 11 October 2020 10: 54
    -6
    in the 90s, many factories were transferred to the management of an American manager for free.

    Hotels and Sochi resorts are some of them 100% American.

    Did you understand what you wrote? What's on the forehead, what's on the forehead - everything is one!
    1. Oyo Sarkazmi Offline Oyo Sarkazmi
      Oyo Sarkazmi (Oyo Sarkazmi) 11 October 2020 13: 54
      +3
      Quote: steel maker
      Did you understand what you wrote?

      Well, I asked myself whether American officials are investing in Russian property. The answer is investing.
      Moreover, Bush Jr., having come to power, confiscated $ 1 billion from the former government officials of the Clinton administration. 2000 dollars, by the way.
      American officials are officially prohibited from receiving income other than government salaries. But the clintonates in consultations in Russia made millions in six months.
      Therefore, under Obama, the children of state officials became the main owners. Biden Jr. received on lease 3 Ukrainian regions in the east (two are at war), Nuland Jr is a member of the Naftogaz supervisory committee.
      And dad and mom have nothing to do with it! The Ukrainians found their own masters and gave them property rights.
  • Sergey Latyshev Offline Sergey Latyshev
    Sergey Latyshev (Serge) 11 October 2020 11: 35
    -3
    Ha. Manure and pearls - in one heap.

    It's time, not time, it's not the author who decides. And Putin, as he himself says, is one of the best Liberaols and Democrats.
    And Friends too.

    And to ban .... Those who write 100 times that the dollar will fall the day after tomorrow too? And the kids in Omerik too?
    Rather, pensioners will be banned. The idea is already in the air of the Kremlin.
    And the experience of Belarusian ankle boots in the ribs too ...
  • Cyril Offline Cyril
    Cyril (Kirill) 11 October 2020 14: 43
    -4
    So, first Necropny, now Pishenkov.

    It was only in the USSR and the countries of the socialist camp that they did everything better for abroad than for themselves

    For abroad, "they did better than for themselves," because otherwise the products of these very "USSR and the countries of the socialist camp" in this very abroad will simply not be needed by anyone. So the point is not some kind of "blaaarodism", but a simple and pragmatic desire to earn at least something.

    the same, produced under the same brand, goods on the shelves of stores "there" and "here" quite sensitively differ in their quality and properties.

    And the answer is simple - the quality standards "there" are much higher than the quality standards "here". The manufacturer will not spend additional money on improving the quality of the product if the standards of the importing country allow it. So it's a trivial saving.

    If these are computer programs or social media platforms, then there is often limited functionality and / or the fact that IM is allowed, but we cannot.

    The author of such products, as I understand it, will not have specific examples? Only idle talk?

    The "higher race" just somehow forgot again how this usually ends - the "Untermenschs" grind all these "higher races" to hell, and then trample their banners ...

    And then Ostap suffered :) He held on for a long time, but could not stand it and broke off :)
    1. Dear sofa expert. 11 October 2020 21: 49
      +3
      For abroad, "they did better than for themselves," because otherwise the products of these very "USSR and the countries of the socialist camp" in this very abroad will simply not be needed by anyone. So the point is not some kind of "blaaarodism", but a simple and pragmatic desire to earn at least something.

      They just naively believed that everything is better “over the hill”. And in vain. Not everyone.

      And the answer is simple - the quality standards "there" are much higher than the quality standards "here".

      nonsense .. not higher, just different. I would even say the opposite: as for the product itself, Russian standards are higher. But the packaging and some other criteria - yes.

      The manufacturer will not spend additional money on improving the quality of the product if the standards of the importing country allow it. So it's a trivial saving.

      Nonsense. What the importer requires is exported. No more, no less. There are some nuances, but in a nutshell they cannot be voiced here, but in general: not a single Western enterprise works specifically for some particular buyer .. The goods are made the same for everyone. An exception may be "A" and "B" product, but these are subtleties.
      And so ... the product is usually put on the commodity exchange, and from there they "dance". Direct deliveries may of course contain "wishes" of buyers. But discrimination based on ethnicity can be ruled out immediately. First of all, it is not technologically justified. On this point, I equally disagree with the author of the article.

      But your arguments are no less disappointing, sorry.

      I was much more impressed by your opinion in the field of astronautics, Kyril. Something like this.)
      1. Cyril Offline Cyril
        Cyril (Kirill) 11 October 2020 22: 54
        -3
        They just naively believed that everything is better “over the hill”. And in vain. Not everyone.

        The quality of consumer goods in the countries of the socialist camp was objectively inferior to those in the West.

        I would even say the opposite: as for the product itself, Russian standards are higher.

        Yeah, that's why all our products are standardized according to European requirements. And, in fact, GOSTs are also updated in accordance with them.

        Nonsense. What goes for export is what the importer requires. Nothing more, nothing less.

        Bingo.

        but in general: not a single western enterprise works specifically for some specific buyer .. The goods are made the same for everyone.

        Well, if a Western (or any other) company has production facilities in other countries, then it must comply with local quality standards. Therefore, if a company manufactures a product in the territory of a certain country, then this product may differ from the same product produced in the home country of the manufacturer.

        But this has nothing to do with "racism" and "untermensch", as the author tries to show. It just makes no sense in some country to produce products in excess of the quality that is prescribed by local legislation.
        1. Dear sofa expert. 11 October 2020 23: 15
          +1
          The quality of consumer goods in the countries of the socialist camp was objectively inferior to those in the West.

          I disagree. Not much inferior. The range was smaller - yes.

          Yeah, that's why all our products are standardized according to European requirements. And, in fact, GOSTs are also updated in accordance with them.

          Well, to sell, maybe. But not more. Everyone has their own quirks.
          The internal market does not need other people's standards. Focused on their own.

          Well, if a Western (or any other) company has production facilities in other countries, then it must comply with local quality standards. Therefore, if a company manufactures a product in the territory of a certain country, then this product may differ from the same product produced in the home country of the manufacturer.

          Dv, that's it
    2. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
      Pishenkov (Alexey) 12 October 2020 10: 42
      +2
      Specific examples - and you open some Facebook or YouTube and try there in your native language to write what you like, but dislike the policy of this company. All this will be removed, and not in accordance with the legislation of the Russian Federation or the phrases and words adopted in the Russian language, but in accordance with what they think about this in the United States. A huge number of programs, including those in Russian, have limited functionality in it, for example, antiviruses and cookie blockers. I’m not a pro in this, so I’d better not rush about terms. But I know how it works, so I often pull together software in English with a maximum of functions.
      The quality standards are almost the same, the question is a) in their observance, b) in certification - in the Russian Federation they have not yet reached this point, but in Eastern Europe it is already, the fact is that a product is certified, for example, a Mars chocolate, and then each batch Nobody disassembles these delivered chocolates into molecules, since there is already a certificate, the product is (as it were) the same, brand, weight, manufacturer, etc. And the initial version, "western", is certified, and then the "eastern" goes into the network ...

      Held on for a long time, but could not stand it and broke off :)

      - and without it there is no way, apparently, it is necessary for some to constantly recall it. And then they relax, like in the last 30 years. While the Soviet troops were in Europe, everyone remembered well what they were doing there and how they got there. And now they have forgotten, relaxed ...
      1. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
        Pishenkov (Alexey) 12 October 2020 10: 46
        +1
        PS here's a living example for you, in this text I tried to write the name of a person with a dark skin color, as it is in Russian n ... r, as well as a word, cultural, meaning gay g ....... m ......... Art. Didn't let the platform go! How! We seem to be on a Russian site? And server platforms are not Russian, in Russian it is neither prohibited nor indecent ...
        1. Cyril Offline Cyril
          Cyril (Kirill) 12 October 2020 21: 00
          0
          Specific examples - and you open some Facebook or YouTube and try there in your native language to write what you like, but dislike the policy of this company. All this will be removed, and not in accordance with the legislation of the Russian Federation or the phrases and words adopted in the Russian language, but in accordance with what they think about this in the United States.

          You contradict yourself.

          First, you argue that for "their" American (and Western in general) companies (including social networks) provide a product of better quality and wider functionality.

          Now give as an example the fact that these companies apply the same rules to Russian users as to their own. In particular, forbidding to write the words about which you spoke.

          A huge number of programs, including those in Russian, have limited functionality in it, for example, antiviruses and cookie blockers. I’m not a pro in this, so I’d better not rush about terms. But I know how it works, so I often pull together software in English with a maximum of functions.

          I'll tell you a secret, the functionality of software products does not depend on the fact that they are produced for "ours" or for "strangers", but on that. the paid or free version you are using. The paid versions have wide functionality, while the free ones have reduced functionality.

          And this is an absolutely normal practice for both Western users and Russian ones.

          Moreover, Russian software manufacturers do the same.

          The quality standards are almost the same, the question is a) in their observance, b) in certification - in the Russian Federation they have not yet reached this point, but in Eastern Europe it is already, the fact is that a product is certified, for example, a Mars chocolate, and then each batch Nobody disassembles these delivered chocolates into molecules, since there is already a certificate, the product is (as it were) the same, brand, weight, manufacturer, etc. And the initial version, "western", is certified, and then the "eastern" goes into the network ...

          Have you conducted a comparative laboratory analysis of the Mars chocolate sold in the West and in Russia? Can you familiarize yourself with the results of the examination, or is it again your purely speculative conclusions?

          The difference in certifications for products in the West and in Russia can be judged at least by medicines.

          In particular, in the same USA, ALL homeopathic preparations have the appropriate labeling, and the FDA (an analogue of our Rospotrebnadzor) OFFICIALLY does not recommend their use in medical practice due to insufficient substantiation (more precisely, the complete absence of such justification) of the pharmacological efficacy of homeopathic preparations.

          WHO takes a similar position.

          But the Russian Ministry of Health allows the use of homeopathic medicines (now it is fashionable to call them "release-active") in medical practice without any restrictions. We do not have any official document, at least not recommending the use of pacifiers in therapy.

          This is me for the question of the quality of certification of goods in Russia and in the West.
  • steelmaker Offline steelmaker
    steelmaker 11 October 2020 15: 50
    -2
    but try, if it's not difficult for you, literally in two or three sentences to write what do you think will be good if Putin leaves?

    For 20 years, Putin hasn’t said what state we are building and for whom? Unlike the Grudinin program. By the way, Putin has never voiced the development program for Russia either. Here's the answer, other candidates have a goal and a program for how to achieve this goal. And Putin has one goal - more than $ billionaires around him.

    Back to the 90s?

    So we are going to this! Try to return without blood what you stole? Or do you think that privatization is correct and everything can be forgiven? Therefore, Putin is needed to continue to rob Russia, and to scare people with the 90s, so that they do not interfere with the robbery and rejoice that they do not die of hunger!
    PS Aren't you ashamed, 145 million, but no one else besides Putin? Moreover, others have a much clearer and more realistic program.
    1. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
      Pishenkov (Alexey) 11 October 2020 16: 52
      +2
      For 20 years, Putin hasn’t said what state we are building and for whom?

      - said 100 times; Socially oriented, For the peoples of Russia and for our children.
      And also just trying to "return without blood what they stole." I myself am also in favor of harsher methods, but in Russia it often ends very terribly well, and then everyone suffers. So he may be right.
      And what about your PS - and I'm just fit that in our 140 million, out of almost 8 billion, there is the greatest politician of our time, with whom there is no comparable in the XNUMXst century. There will be a new one, the power will change. See the comment to my colleague above about the change of power
      1. Cyril Offline Cyril
        Cyril (Kirill) 11 October 2020 17: 47
        -1
        the greatest politician of our time

        laughing

        There is a new one, the power will change.

        But how can he be found if the necessary conditions have been destroyed for this?)

        Forgive me, but we do not have a hereditary monarchy, where a monarch is trained to replace the existing one from an early age. Does Putin have heirs?
        1. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
          Pishenkov (Alexey) 12 October 2020 10: 23
          +2
          The fact of the matter is that there is no heir yet. And there is no system - there are elite groups that, like a swan, cancer and pike, pull everything in different directions. And as it appears, the government will change. I am absolutely sure that Putin will gladly do it himself. He is not eternal, and he does not need power for the sake of power - not that person. In order to have a stable system and turnover of leaders, an ideology is needed, in the mainstream of which these leaders would follow, but it does not.
          Yes, and in the West, in modern conditions, and the system is malfunctioning - over there in the United States now what? Does it not resemble the transfer of power in the Soviet Politburo in the mid-80s? From grandfather to grandfather? Something is also wrong, that's why the country is sausage. And the people are voting, in fact, not FOR, but AGAINST someone ... It's just that democracy, in its usual form, has also outlived its usefulness, apparently ... Where are the worthy leaders who appear as a result of the elections? I don't see one. How did Macron come to power? Where did it come from? It was a completely manipulated campaign! Under an artificial candidate (we know by whom) created a candidate without any political background ... Here's the election. Who found it, chose it? French people? Somehow it doesn't look like ...
          1. Cyril Offline Cyril
            Cyril (Kirill) 13 October 2020 01: 28
            +1
            The fact of the matter is that there is no heir yet.

            There shouldn't be an heir. Inheritance is an outdated and obsolete mechanism for the transfer of power, ineffective in modern realities.

            And there is no system - there are elite groups that, like a swan, cancer and pike, pull everything in different directions

            So it will not be so as long as state power is tied to a specific person.

            And as it appears, the power will change.

            Again. A successor (I'm talking now about an effective ruler, not just a formal "successor") does not appear on its own. This requires a special environment and conditions. During the years of absolute monarchy, the role of such an environment was played by the aristocracy (or rather, the ruling family), where the heirs from an early age were brought up for the future government. It was a long and painstaking process.

            In modern developed democracies, the role of such an environment, which educates effective politicians, is played by public organizations - from school societies and clubs to non-profit organizations, social movements, etc.

            In Russia now there is neither aristocracy, nor a developed system of public organizations.

            And in the West, in modern conditions, and the system is malfunctioning - over there in the US now what? Does it not resemble the transfer of power in the Soviet Politburo in the mid-80s? From grandfather to grandfather?

            Doesn't remind. First, old age alone is not a sign of a politician's ineffectiveness. Ronald Reagan, for example, took the chair at the age of 70 - and nothing, led the country quite effectively. Second, the three previous US presidents took office at a relatively young age. In general, there were only one or two openly elderly presidents in the United States.

            Something is also wrong, that's why the country is sausage.

            Yes, it does little sausage. If you are talking about public unrest, then they were no less intense in the 60s and 80s.

            It's just that democracy, in its usual form, has also outlived itself, apparently ...

            Democracy is not without problems (no one denies them), but it works.

            Where are the worthy leaders who have emerged as a result of the elections? I don't see one.

            It all depends on who you think is "worthy". This is a very speculative criterion, pure taste.

            How did Macron come to power? Where did it come from?

            Well, you at least read Wikipedia, it describes in full detail his quite rich political career. In short. then here:

            Emmanuel Jean-Michel Frédéric Macron, born December 21, 1977, Amiens, Somme, Haut-de-France, France) - French statesman and politician, President of France and Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces of France with May 14, 2017.

            Minister of Economy, Industry and Digital Affairs in the second Waltz government from August 26, 2014 to August 30, 2016. Creator and first leader of the political party "Forward, Republic!" (2016-2017)

            It was a completely manipulated campaign!

            Who was she manipulated by?) Come on, tell us once again about the "invisible rulers of the Earth" :))

            Under an artificial candidate (we know by whom) created a candidate without any political background ..

            I will quote again:

            Minister of Economy, Industry and Digital Affairs in the second Waltz government from August 26, 2014 to August 30, 2016. Creator and first leader of the political party "Forward, Republic!" (2016-2017).

            He was a member of the Socialist Party from 2006 to 2009.

            From 2012 to 2014, he worked as Deputy Secretary General under President Hollande. Resigned on July 15, 2014, and was appointed Minister of Economy on August 26.

            Macron's main achievement in power is the adoption of "a law for economic growth, activity and equality of chances." The Macron Act, as it is referred to, was passed on August 6, 2015.

            As a result, we see that Macron has quite a good political background, which you simply did not bother to find out about.
            1. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
              Pishenkov (Alexey) 13 October 2020 11: 07
              0
              Either you have too much free time, or you really like to quote me (flattered!). I don’t have so much to write something and answer in the same volume wink
              Successor, yes, a more appropriate word, but I did not call it that, but only in response .... VVP is now trying to build a system from which such personnel come out. The prime minister has already found something beautiful, but he is a techie, not a politician. And there will be a politician for the president, I hope ...
              And about Macron, it's generally funny, take a look at what you wrote. For two years he worked as an official, then created a NEW party and won the elections, became president. All of a sudden! Well, just a man is cooler than Lenin! NOT cooler, but the "rulers of the Earth" did their best - he built his entire conscious career in the Rothschild bank and, this is their man, they put him there, in the president's chair, and put him there. So that Europe does not suddenly drive out of globalization. They, before that, tried to prevent Strauss-Kahn from sitting there. Otherwise, the skiff would have come to the dollar monopoly in Europe.
              I watched Macron even when they were preparing him for the elections, but you only know how to read Wikipedia ...
              1. Cyril Offline Cyril
                Cyril (Kirill) 13 October 2020 14: 18
                0
                VVP is now trying to build a system from which such personnel come out.

                No results are visible yet. What do you yourself confirm:

                The prime minister has already found something beautiful, but he is a techie, not a politician.

                And there will be a politician for the president, I hope ...

                And in a normally working and stable democratic system, there is no need to hope - it ALWAYS prepares personnel.

                For two years he worked as an official, then created a NEW party and won the elections, became president.

                First, Macron's political activities began back in 2006, when he joined the Socialist Party.

                Secondly, Putin had little more direct political experience before he became President :) But for some reason he is "the greatest politician in the world" for you, and Macron is the result of "Rothschild manipulations")

                but the "rulers of the Earth" did their best - he built his entire conscious career in the Rothschild bank and, this is their man, they put him there, in the president's chair, and put him there.

                I was waiting for you to finally get into conspiracy theories :) Here, I waited :)
                1. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
                  Pishenkov (Alexey) 13 October 2020 14: 44
                  +2
                  And what kind of conspiracy is there, when all the European media trumpeted this even during his elections ??? And Macron himself has never denied that he is an adherent of globalism and transnational, not national business ...
                  Putin, firstly, still worked in St. Petersburg at the communal level, and secondly, he did not create a new party right before the elections and did not "win" right away with it in these elections. By the way, think about what a howl would be in places of "developed democracy" if such a trick took place, say, in Belarus? And the party, of course, would not be pro-Western ... Nobody would recognize these elections.
                  Putin did not come through the elections at all, and I also wrote this above.

                  And in a normally working and stable democratic system, there is no need to hope - it ALWAYS prepares personnel.

                  - here and look: 2 crazy old men in the USA + others like them surrounded, out of nowhere planted by globalists Macron, delayed Frau Merkel, who somehow also cannot find a worthy successor, Britain, where recently premieres are changing like gloves and without visible success, Madame von der Leyen, who should be given a Russian order for the complete collapse of the Bundeswehr at her previous job, the crazy Stoltenberg, the Poles and the Balts, who are ready to shoot themselves in the legs to harm the Russian Federation, and more than once ??? Half, at least, of all these "leaders" are childless in old age, with not very clear orientation and life goals ... Where are your cadres ??? It's them??? In Austria, there is only a young and sensible chancellor, and that despite the system, and not thanks to - the system tried to overthrow him.
                  That is why everything, Russia in FIG does not need any such democracy in the Western manner. We'll find our leaders, don't worry. From your system. And the fact that it does not look like the Western does not mean that it does not exist.
                  1. Cyril Offline Cyril
                    Cyril (Kirill) 13 October 2020 15: 13
                    0
                    And what kind of conspiracy is there, when all the European media trumpeted this even during his elections ???

                    1. Conspiracy theories are the most direct when you call the Rothschilds, who have not played any significant role in the economy or politics for a long time, "the rulers of the world" :)
                    2. European media suddenly became an authority for you?)

                    And Macron himself has never denied that he is an adherent of globalism and transnational, not national business ...

                    So what? How does this indicate that his election victory was "manipulation"?

                    First of all, Putin worked in St. Petersburg at the communal level

                    Yes, since the beginning of the 90s :) 8 years before being elected president.

                    Macron, 10 years before his election as president, already worked at the national level.

                    did not create a new party right before the elections and did not "win" right away with it in these elections.

                    That's right, because he was simply appointed successor under pressure from the security forces :) True, then he did create his own party, United Russia, but these are such trifles. is not it:)

                    By the way, think about what a howl would be in places of "developed democracy" if such a trick took place, say, in Belarus? And the party, of course, would not be pro-Western ... Nobody would recognize these elections.

                    Why should I figure out your speculations that have nothing to do with the facts?

                    2 crazy old men in the USA

                    Where are they crazy?

                    Macron planted out of nowhere by globalists

                    Your speculations again :)

                    where recently premieres have changed like gloves and without visible success

                    And what should be the "visible success"?) And, the restoration of the British Empire in its full size?)

                    Madame von der Leyen, who should be given a Russian order for the complete collapse of the Bundeswehr

                    A very one-sided statement. Here's what she did as Secretary of Defense:

                    As head of the Ministry of Defense, Ursula von der Leyen faced many difficult tasks. The Bundeswehr was in dire need of modern weapons, professional planning and new qualified personnel. The new minister began to demand an increase in defense spending. And she managed to change the course of the government to cut the budget of the Bundeswehr and increase the size of the army - for the first time since the reunification of Germany.

                    It abolished the quota of 185 thousand troops, made defense policy part of German foreign policy... These changes met the requirements of the time: by that time the Bundeswehr was already involved in the struggle that the international community waged against the terrorists of the "Islamic State" (IS)

                    Although, of course, there were mistakes. But she is not to blame for the deterioration of the technical equipment of the Bundeswehr - this process began long before her even under her predecessors, she only got to a noticeable part of it. Therefore, this process was associated with her.

                    crazy Stoltenberg,

                    Half, at least, of all these "leaders" are childless in old age, with not very clear orientation and life goals ...

                    laughing And Putin is not in old age?) Almost 70 years old :)
                    And did you personally ask these politicians for their life goals?) And how did you find out their orientation, dare I ask?)

                    In Austria, there was only a young and sensible chancellor, and that despite the system, and not thanks to - the system tried to overthrow him.

                    Why is he sane?
                    Kurz was asked to resign because of a very specific political scandal. Moreover, the vote of no confidence was passed not so much even to him personally as to the entire government.
                    It's funny that then, without much difficulty, he again took up the post of Chancellor of Austria :)

                    We'll find our leaders, don't worry. From your system

                    Well, success :)
              2. Cyril Offline Cyril
                Cyril (Kirill) 13 October 2020 14: 24
                0
                For two years he worked as an official, then created a NEW party and won the elections, became president.

                And you can't even read a quote normally. I will repeat and highlight the key points:

                Macron worked as an inspector at the Ministry of Economy from 2004 to 2008 year. With 2007 year served as Deputy Rapporteur for Commissions to improve French growth led by Jacques Attali.

                Was in the Socialist Party from 2006 to 2009 year.

                2012 to 2014 year served as Deputy Secretary General under President Hollande. Resigned On July 15, 2014, and on August 26, he was appointed Minister of Economy.

                In total, it was political experience, even without taking into account the economic experience in the Rothschild Bank, "Macron had at least 10 years at the time of his election.

                I watched Macron even when they were preparing him for the elections, but you only know how to read Wikipedia ...

                So, they looked in the wrong place.

                Maybe Putin has more? No, he began his political career in the early 1990s, working in the Sobchak mayor's office. Moreover, if Macron had national experience, then Putin's - let's say - very regional.

                But, of course, the first one is "the greatest politician in the world" :) Because the Russian, apparently :) And the Frenchman ... and what the Frenchman, what to take from him, the paddling pool. Yes?)
                1. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
                  Pishenkov (Alexey) 13 October 2020 14: 46
                  +1
                  Don't you know that employees of ministries are not politicians ???
                  1. Cyril Offline Cyril
                    Cyril (Kirill) 13 October 2020 15: 17
                    0
                    You are not aware that employees of ministries are not politicians

                    Employees of ministries are unambiguously politicians, as they participate in the management of state structures.
                2. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
                  Pishenkov (Alexey) 13 October 2020 14: 59
                  +2
                  But, of course, the first one is "the greatest politician in the world" :) Because the Russian, apparently :) And the Frenchman ... and what the Frenchman, what to take from him, the paddling pool. Yes?)

                  - because in a couple of years he brought the country out of complete collapse back to superpowers, before him only Hitler managed this, but Putin did without his methods. He restored the industry, including the nuclear and defense industry. He began to really deal with international topics, for example, in Syria and the Kuril Islands.
                  And the Europeans have done what during this time? Migrants recruited a couple of million? Did they put their economies even lower? Have Europeans' living standards lowered? Have the armies been destroyed? for the sake of an incomprehensible "green" project, various norms were envied, from which energy resources rose in price and production became less competitive? Maybe you know some achievements for which the same Macron can be called "great" ???
                  1. Cyril Offline Cyril
                    Cyril (Kirill) 13 October 2020 15: 31
                    0
                    - because in a couple of years he brought the country from a complete collapse back to a superpower

                    Russia is not a superpower. Regional - yes, of course (true, it was like that under Yeltsin). But not a superpower.

                    He began to really deal with international topics, for example, in Syria and the Kuril Islands.

                    And how did he manage?) To be honest, under the so unloved Yeltsin, Russia had more stable and normal relations with the surrounding countries.

                    And the Europeans have done what during this time? Migrants recruited a couple of million? Did they put their economies even lower? Have Europeans' living standards lowered?

                    laughing Where did they put their economies?)

                    for the sake of an incomprehensible "green" project, various norms were enforced

                    Well, you don't understand, but the Europeans, whose territory is very limited and it is impossible to pollute it with waste all the time, the "green project" is quite understandable.

                    production has become less competitive

                    Compared to what? With Russian? What industrial products in Russia are competitive with European ones? Weapons, nuclear energy, agricultural and hydrocarbon - everything. True, we supply hydrocarbon raw materials to Europe and buy processed gasoline there. Very competitive. Maybe Russian cars have flooded Europe? No. The opposite is true. Maybe the electronics industry? Oh, not either ... Also the opposite. Maybe civil aircraft? Oh, and then a mistake ... Maybe clothes or shoes? And then no. Maybe the pharmaceutical industry - but something is somehow also not very special.

                    Have the armies been destroyed?

                    If destroyed, then what do you regard each teaching of the European armies as an act of aggression?

                    Maybe you know some achievements for which the same Macron can be called "great"

                    And in what place did I call him "great"?)
                    1. isofat Online isofat
                      isofat (isofat) 13 October 2020 15: 46
                      +1
                      Quote: Cyril
                      To be honest, under Yeltsin, so unloved by all, Russia had more stable and normal relations with the surrounding countries.

                      Cyril... Your answer when you speak honestly, read it. What do you write when lying... I get scared. smile
                      1. Cyril Offline Cyril
                        Cyril (Kirill) 13 October 2020 15: 49
                        0
                        What do you write when you lie ...

                        So far, it was you who were noticed behind the lies :)

                        Don't blame me for your sins
                    2. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
                      Pishenkov (Alexey) 13 October 2020 22: 38
                      +1
                      under Yeltsin, so unloved by all, Russia had more stable and normal relations with the surrounding countries.

                      - inside, everything was just too bad, but with the West such relations were because they allowed themselves to be deceived for a penny, and in international affairs they were silent in a rag ... But as they raised their voice again, they became enemies ...
                      I definitely know better about the attitude of Europeans to "green affairs", this is all subsidized and tax allocations in billions at the state level, it really does not bring anything useful to nature, rather the opposite.
                      They became uncompetitive with Asia and their own factories exported there, as well as the US and non-EU states.
                      Where did they put the European economy, you ask the EU nomenclature, and the standard of living since the 90s has dropped two times, if not lower, judging by what people can afford.
                      As for the threats from Europe, it's not from them, but from those who train there with them ...
                      And I called Putin great, about Macron, said that he cannot be considered such ... - this is to your question why Putin is great, but Macron is not ...
                      1. Cyril Offline Cyril
                        Cyril (Kirill) 13 October 2020 23: 53
                        0
                        - inside it was just too bad

                        Not without it, but how would you like it with a radical change in the economic and state structure? Putin did not come in the early 90s, but towards the end, when the situation began to improve, at the very least.

                        and such relations with the West were because they allowed themselves to be bullied for a penny, and in international affairs they were silent in a rag ... But as they raised their voice again, they became enemies ...

                        And I'm not talking about the West.

                        I definitely know better about the attitude of Europeans to "green affairs", this is all subsidized and tax allocations in billions at the state level, it really does not bring anything useful to nature, rather the opposite.

                        Reducing emissions from factories, recycling garbage do not benefit nature?) It's funny.

                        they became uncompetitive with Asia and their own factories exported there,

                        1. Asian (more precisely, Chinese, Vietnamese, Thai) goods benefit from lower wages and, what is more funny, a huge burden on the environment. Read at your leisure about the state of the environment in the same China. If the competitiveness of goods is more important to you than the health of the population itself, then approx. Europeans have a completely different approach to their population.

                        2. So that's why they took their factories there :)

                        and the standard of living since the 90s has fallen twice, if not lower, judging by what people can afford.

                        It fell everywhere because of the global financial crisis. However, even with a declining standard of living, Europeans as a whole live better than Russia that has "risen from its knees".

                        As for the threats from Europe, it's not from them, but from those who train there with them ...

                        So you think the Americans are degraded and useless for anything :)

                        And I called Putin great, about Macron, I said that he cannot be considered such ...

                        Yes, neither one nor the other has any greatness. Both are just good presidents.
                    3. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
                      Pishenkov (Alexey) 14 October 2020 00: 55
                      +2
                      About garbage and emissions - The lion's share of the money is spent not on / for this, but for "green" energy sources and various super smart systems in cars like "start-stop". And what about emissions and garbage is also interesting: emissions are not allowed, but if you buy a permit, you can - is it about nature or about money? - and the garbage is transported by ships to another part of the planet, where it is hardly reworked according to the Euronorms (otherwise it would not make sense to carry it), it is not easier for nature at the global level ...

                      Europeans live better than Russians - Yes, but the problem is that it's harder to get used to living worse than vice versa. And Europeans are not interested in how Russians live, but what they can afford less and less

                      I did not say that the Americans degraded, degoaded their values. There are many normal people in America, I communicate with some. And their army is stronger than EuroNATO, and they must be feared.

                      If Putin is not great, then who ????

                      I will not comment on the rest - I will get tired Yes, and "this is peas against the wall
                      1. Cyril Offline Cyril
                        Cyril (Kirill) 14 October 2020 12: 04
                        0
                        The lion's share of the money is spent not on / for this, but for "green" energy sources and various super smart systems in cars such as "start-stop"

                        So the introduction of "green" energy sources is precisely what reduces emissions. If you replace the thermal power plant with that "wind turbine", there will be no emissions into the atmosphere.

                        And what about emissions and garbage is also interesting: emissions are not allowed, but if you buy a permit, you can - is it about nature or about money?

                        First, an emission permit is issued only if these emissions do not exceed the permissible limits.

                        Secondly, businesses in Europe pay an additional tax on their emissions. The dirtier the enterprise, the higher this tax. This stimulates the management of these enterprises to introduce cleaning systems. It is more profitable to spend money once, but a lot on the cleaning system, than to pay "emissions tax" all the time.

                        and the garbage is transported by ships to another part of the planet, where it is hardly reworked according to European standards (otherwise it would not make sense to carry it), it is not easier for nature at the global level ...

                        But they didn't guess. In Germany, 2/3 of all waste is recycled in Germany itself.

                        Quote:

                        Almost two thirds all garbage is recycled in Germany, which allows it to be disposed of, including - half of all plastic waste, the most problematic... This is more than any other country in Europe. About 45 million tons are incinerated after sorting and processing at special plants. But this rubbish is also beneficial. The gas turbines in these plants generate electricity. In addition, gases generated during combustion after cleaning are used for heating. Only gases passed through special filters are emitted into the atmosphere, so the pipes of incineration plants smoke weakly and practically odorless.

                        Europeans live better than Russians - Yes, but the problem is that it's harder to get used to living worse than vice versa. And Europeans are not interested in how Russians live, but what they can afford less and less

                        Once again - the whole world is now experiencing a financial crisis since 2008. Naturally, the standard of living even in Europe has dropped. The question is how catastrophically it fell.

                        If Putin is not great, then who ????

                        Yes, no one :) Neither Putin, nor any other president of any other country. "Greatness" is an attribute of bygone eras. A normal president should not be great, but effective.
                      2. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
                        Pishenkov (Alexey) 14 October 2020 13: 07
                        +1
                        Once again - the whole world is now experiencing a financial crisis since 2008. Naturally, the standard of living even in Europe has dropped. The question is how catastrophically it fell.

                        - it has been falling since the mid-90s without any crises. I will not even argue about ecology and so on - you have zero ideas about what is being done in the EU with this.
                        Each era has its own great people, and with a "+" and with a "-", although this perception is very subjective. Someone loves Putin, someone hates, someone is afraid, but no one with brains denies that he is a truly outstanding politician of our post-Soviet era. Great is only a term, I consider it as such, exactly on a par with Bismarck, Ataturk, Lincoln, Peter the Great, Napoleon, etc. In the XNUMXst century, there is definitely no one else to put in this row - they are too small ...
                      3. Cyril Offline Cyril
                        Cyril (Kirill) 14 October 2020 13: 18
                        0
                        you have zero ideas about what is being done in the EU about this.

                        laughing I gave a concrete example of how this is done in Germany, and from you only your own inventions :)

                        Someone loves Putin, someone hates, someone is afraid, but no one with brains denies that he is a truly outstanding politician of our post-Soviet era.

                        Outstanding against the background of the same Yeltsin - perhaps. Outstanding against the backdrop of modern rulers? Than?

                        exactly on a par with Bismarck, Ataturk, Lincoln, Peter the Great, Napoleon, etc.

                        Generally not comparable with them in scale.

                        In the XNUMXst century, there is definitely no one else to put in this row - they are too small ...

                        He did no more for his country than the same Obama or Bush Jr. did for his own.
                      4. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
                        Pishenkov (Alexey) 14 October 2020 13: 28
                        +1
                        You have an argument for the sake of an argument. Moreover, not very smart. You really don't know anything, neither about Germany, nor about the United States, etc., I doubt about Russia either. All your data is the internet. And there is far from everything, if someone thinks so, then this is the biggest mistake of our time, you have to live in this and face it every day, like with EU eco-programs, know the documents and history.
                        I'm not interested further - peas against the wall.
                      5. Cyril Offline Cyril
                        Cyril (Kirill) 14 October 2020 13: 33
                        -1
                        All your data is the internet.

                        Right. And yours are your own speculations :) As, for example, in the comments with your "examples" about the products of foreign companies supposedly "for our own" and "for others")

                        it is necessary to live in this and to face it every day, as with the EU environmental programs., to know the documents and history.

                        So you do not live there, you did not provide any documents, nor any other evidence at all :)

                        Naturally, your speculation is "peas against the wall".
                      6. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
                        Pishenkov (Alexey) 14 October 2020 19: 00
                        0
                        Where I live is written in my profile, as well as my real name and surname - I do not hide this and do not hesitate. In addition, for example, with regard to ecology: I also had to live and work in different parts of Britain, in Norway, Switzerland, Germany and participate there in projects related to construction and mining. So on all these "green" euro-rules and subsidies, I apologize, already "ate the dog". Therefore, a discussion with you on this topic, I do not want to offend, but reminds me
                        conversations with my son, a schoolboy about war or politics.
                        So I don't see the point. For his son, the main source of information about the Second World War is his favorite film "4 tankmen and a dog", you have Wikipedia and so on. What's the point in arguing? hi
                      7. Cyril Offline Cyril
                        Cyril (Kirill) 15 October 2020 00: 10
                        -2
                        Aaaaa :) Sorry, I didn't see right away that you are one of those who live and work in "decaying Europe", and from a distance yearn for Russia and Putin :) That's it, I have no more questions :)

                        What about this:

                        In addition, for example, regarding the environment: I also had to live and work in different parts of Britain, in Norway, Switzerland, Germany and participate there in projects related to construction and mining. So on all these "green" euro-rules and subsidies, I apologize, already "ate the dog".


                        then your next "personal experience" is not interesting to me. I am interested in facts and facts again. Confirmed by at least something other than your "word of honor".
                      8. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
                        Pishenkov (Alexey) 15 October 2020 12: 21
                        +1
                        I am interested in facts and facts again.

                        - just about, and the son about the same laughing and how many rounds does the PPSh have in the disk? And the German machine gun? So the PCA is better? laughing
                        Yes, I live there, but you don't, but you know everything about this "THERE" ...
                        Well, take it, write some decent article on any of the above topics, if you have such knowledge on the issue. We will discuss, see, write opinions ...
                        And then it's so empty ringing about anything, a dispute for the sake of a dispute - it's not interesting ... Why waste time and write you some clear data, numbers? ... If I know the result in advance ...
  • Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
    Pishenkov (Alexey) 11 October 2020 16: 58
    +1
    PS and if you want to answer me, press "answer", and then I don't see it .... unless of course you need a discussion ...
  • Jacques sekavar Offline Jacques sekavar
    Jacques sekavar (Jacques Sekavar) 11 October 2020 18: 59
    +3
    It was said that the democratic expression of the will of the people is a sacred

    1. The expression of the will of the people is manipulated by big business that maintains the media and finances electoral campaigns, formally democratic. There are a million examples. Elections of Yeltsin, whose initial rating was approaching zero. Election campaigns in the USA - which grouping of big business will make the largest contribution to the cashier of a particular applicant, that, as a rule, wins. The winner fulfills the invested funds by pursuing a policy in the interests of sponsors.

    2. The referendum in Crimea overshadowed similar referendums in the DPR-LPR and their repeated official requests for admission to the Russian Federation. Reaction from the Russian Federation - Zero!

    3. Civilized democratic states proceed from the Belovezhskaya agreement, which proceeded from the administrative borders of the union republics that existed at that time, which became independent states and recognized by the UN - Nagorno-Karabakh is an integral part of Azerbaijan, the Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic is part of Moldova, the Crimean Autonomous Republic of Ukraine, Abkhazia and South .Osetia as part of Georgia.

    4. Belarus is the last link in the implementation of the Eastern Partnership program, which provides for the neocolonization of the former Soviet republics - Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine, Moldova, Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan. Some were swallowed up, others were offered an association as an intermediate option, others were lowered below the plinth and thus caused social instability in which they supported pro-Western politicians, only Alexander Grigorievich rested. So they are trying to break him, then Tikhanovskaya will be more compliant.

    5. The political and economic blockade emerged immediately after the head of the coup d'etat of 1991 left the post of President of the Russian Federation and grew with the growth of the economy and the independence of the Russian Federation as a result of the policies of Vladimir Putin. The task was outlined by the former Secretary of State H. Clinton - to “defragment” the Russian Federation. Nobody canceled this task, which means that the goal is the same. Any means are good for its implementation and no evidence is required.

    6. All sorts of things were brought to the Russian Federation after the coup d'etat of 1991 - used cars, second-hand, bush legs, etc. Today, goods are imported that are not produced - smartphones, televisions, components, and much more, because it is impossible to produce everything by ourselves. It is often cheaper to buy overseas than to build factories and produce yourself.