Order No. 270 - Stalin's "sword of Damocles" over the generals of the Red Army


On August 16, 1941, the order of the Headquarters of the Supreme High Command No. 270 was signed and came into effect. In essence, this normative document was much tougher and more terrible than the famous 227th order of the USSR People's Commissariat of Defense, which appeared almost a year later and bore the unspoken name "not a step back." On the 227th it was possible to get into the penal units created in pursuance of its provisions. The order "On the responsibility of servicemen for surrendering and leaving weapons to the enemy" defined one measure as a punishment - execution in front of the formation ...


Nevertheless, domestic liberals are almost worn about as the main "proof of Stalin's cannibalism during the war", as a rule, with the order from 1942, and the 270th that preceded it, of course, is mentioned, but in passing, without going into details. Why so, we will consider a little later. For now, I will outline the main thing - the order adopted in August 1941 concerned, first of all, not ordinary soldiers, but the command staff of the Red Army.

With a story about him, we, in fact, will begin a conversation on a much larger, incredibly confusing, extremely tragic and, as usual, mercilessly distorted topic - about the fate of the top leaders of the Red Army, who fell into enemy captivity during the Great Patriotic War. As a rule, Soviet historians tried not to touch upon this extremely painful issue at all. Well, with the exception of absolutely outstanding and absolutely unambiguous examples of heroism, like General Dmitry Karbyshev. Nevertheless, this military leader, who was martyred at the hands of Hitler's executioners, was only one "pole" of a fairly considerable number of captured Soviet generals. On the other, as you might guess, is the traitor and traitor Vlasov. And those who were "in between"? Who were these people, what is known about them, and how did their stories develop during and after the war? Analyzing these questions, we will inevitably touch upon the mysterious and ominous events that took place in the Red Army five years after the Victory and which, again, affected the top commanders. What happened then and why? We will try to find answers to all these questions in due course. For now, let's get back to where we started.

To destroy cowards and deserters!


I'll start with the fact that I will substantively and specifically explain why the Russian liberals were so displeased with Order No. 270, which would seem to fit perfectly into their slanderous versions of the Great Patriotic War, like "they filled up with corpses." The fact is that this document in one fell swoop breaks the vile picture they diligently draw of how the hysterical and vicious commanders of regiments and divisions “drove to slaughter” by crowds of “unfortunate soldiers” led by “green lieutenants”. These unfortunate people died senselessly and tragically, of course, solely because of the stupidity and bloodthirstiness of the superiors who were sitting away from the front line in the safe bunkers. Such barbarism, of course, was promoted with might and main by the oak-headed and fanatical commissars in the company of maniacs-specialists in cornflower-blue caps, who were downright eager to shoot all the Red Army men indiscriminately to the right and left.

A similar, truly schizophrenic, version of the Great Patriotic War (especially its initial period) turned out to be so tenacious that to this day it continues to walk not only in the writings of liberoid "historians" and "publicists", but, alas, in most domestic "film masterpieces" military theme, generously funded from the state budget. The public of a certain kind does not want to refuse it ... But it will have to! Since the order No. 270 that we have mentioned just says that "cowards and deserters" should be considered those commanders of battalions and regiments (not platoons and not companies!), Who during the battle are not present in the forward order, but "hide in the cracks or mess around in the office. " Such "commanders" are ordered in plain text "to be removed from their posts and positions, transferring to the rank and file", and "in some cases" - and to be shot in front of the formation. Again, do not let everyone into the flow, but understand a specific situation ...

But there can be no options with regard to those who “showed cowardice”, “ripping off the insignia”, fleeing from the battlefield and surrendering. "Cowards and deserters must be destroyed!" - this is a literal quote from the order. At the same time, it is clarified that they mean not only colonels and generals in command of combat units, but also “members of military councils of armies”, political workers, heads of special departments and their employees. Of the categories listed above, only a few “sat out” in reality. But after Order No. 270, such actions became a death sentence, not in a figurative, but in the most direct sense of the word. In addition, the responsibility extended to family members who disgraced their own high ranks - they were not shot, but sent into exile. Moreover, “all Red Army men, regardless of their position and rank,” were directly instructed to “destroy by any means” ... military commanders who preferred surrender to “fighting the enemy to the last opportunity”! This is how it was in reality, not in liberal delirium. So what was this order? "Stalin's atrocities"?

First of all, in addition to the signature of the Supreme Commander, under the document were also autographs of his former deputy, Molotov, Marshals Voroshilov, Budyonny, Timoshenko, Shaposhnikov, as well as Zhukov, then an army general. Yes, the 270th actually obliged all the soldiers of the Red Army, from privates to front commanders, to fight to the death, even if they did not have the slightest chance of winning a battle, to die on the battlefield, but not to retreat and not surrender to the enemy. Fanaticism? Forgive me, but in this case, the military oath should be recognized as such, by taking which every serviceman vows to defend the Motherland "not sparing his life." And by the way, at the time of the signing of the ruthless order, exactly one month had passed since the son of the Supreme Commander went missing at the front. In fact, the story of Jacob's "captivity" was a Nazi fake, he died in battle, but that doesn't change matters. Signing such an order, Stalin did not know this yet, but he was certainly aware of the disappearance of his son.

Instead of captivity - a bullet in the forehead


That was the “salt” of Order No. 270, that he put everyone on the same level - from a soldier to a marshal. It was precisely this equality of responsibility that distinguished the Stalinist era, which did not know the non-judgmental and untouchable. The children of almost all representatives of the country's top leadership and the party (who had them) fought at the front, the nephew of the same Voroshilov will go to the forefront in 1943 - and he will die heroically ... of universal human values ​​”, it is extremely shocking that this order, in fact, directly forbade the representatives of the highest command personnel from falling into the enemy's hands alive. There is not a word in it that instructs commanders, if it is impossible to continue resistance and heroically die in battle, to destroy themselves, but this is meant quite transparently.

What can you say here? The tradition of shooting, not only with the threat of capture, but after a lost battle, was very common among the officers and generals of the Russian Imperial Army. The example of General Samsonov is far from unique ... However, as one literary hero said, "then they were shooting not out of fear of responsibility, but out of shame." As for a later time, any high-ranking commander is, first of all, a real storehouse of information most valuable to the enemy. Can I not say a word during interrogations? Sorry for the cynicism, but only those who do not have the slightest idea about the interrogations of real, not cinematic, think so. It all depends solely on the level of specialists, this very interrogation is conducted. The Nazis specialists were simply excellent ... Yes, there were cases when our commanders were silent until the last. But what is interesting - almost always it was those who were captured being wounded, unconscious. Those who surrendered voluntarily most often sooner or later began to "cooperate."

There was one more aspect. The Nazis immediately tried to use any more or less major commander of the Red Army for propaganda purposes. Dr. Joseph Goebbels was a scoundrel, an exceptional cynic and a fantastic liar, but he knew his business perfectly. The propaganda machine of the Third Reich, launched and debugged by him, expelled incredible volumes of misinformation aimed at disintegrating the desperately fighting Red Army, breaking its will to resist, and persuading as many of its soldiers and commanders to surrender. If something genuine that could be used for the same purposes fell into the clutches of Goebbels's subordinates, they clung to it tightly, like pincers. And they used it 100%. Captured red commanders were especially appreciated and were, as they say, snapped up. Yes, today it seems wild to demand that a person deliberately and voluntarily end his own life.

Nevertheless, everyone who wore commander insignia in 1941 took the oath (and some more than once, given their pre-revolutionary past) and knew that having chosen military affairs as their life path, sooner or later they might find themselves in front of such choice. By the way, in order No. 270 were given quite specific names of those generals who "set a bad example for the troops", betraying their military duty and being captured. These included the commander of the 28th Army, Lieutenant General Vladimir Kachalov, the commander of the 12th Army, Lieutenant General Pavel Ponedelin, and the commander of the 13th Rifle Corps, Major General Nikolai Kirillov. They became the first "victims" of this extremely harsh order, since all three were recognized as traitors and deserters, and sentenced to death in absentia. Well, using the examples of these specific people, we will consider the situation, how much there was "cannibalism" in 270, and how many - following the harsh realities of war.

"Leafing through the old notebook of the executed general ..."


With General Katchalov, let's make a reservation right away, a terrible mistake came out. By the time the order was signed, he was no longer alive. Moreover, he did not spend a day, not an hour or a minute in captivity - while trying to break through from the encirclement, he died in a battle near the village of Starinki in the Roslavl region. The point in doubts was raised after the end of the Great Patriotic War, when the remains of the general were found in a mass grave found there. Then the words of a German officer, who wrote in a report, that "we found the body of a Russian commander in a tank we had broken," were added. However, how did it happen that Kachalov fell into traitors? A confluence of circumstances, and an extremely nasty one - in the last minutes, when they saw him, the general jumped into the tank and rushed towards the enemy. At the same time, he did not begin to explain either the goal or the meaning of his own maneuver to anyone. As a result, a very nasty wording was born: "I drove a tank towards the enemy with unidentified intentions." Then someone thought of remembering that on August 4, 1941, the general allegedly picked up one of the German leaflets dropped from the planes that served as "prisoner passes" and put it in his pocket with the words: "Maybe it will come in handy ..." was there a roll of paper? Hard to believe. Is the whole story a lie? More than possible. However, investigators and judges felt differently. It was such a time ... Comrade Mehlis personally reported this episode to Stalin - a man who, to put it mildly, was keen on finding and exposing "enemies of the people" in the army. Subsequently, Kachalov, of course, was rehabilitated, but during the war years, his relatives took a dare, as they say, in full ...

With Ponedelin and Kirillov, the situation is radically different. These two commanders were in the hands of the Nazis at the same time, during the so-called "Uman catastrophe". Not only their stay in captivity, but also quite civilized communication with representatives of the Wehrmacht has a lot of documentary evidence, including in the form of photographs. Looking ahead, I note that in these photographs both generals do not look, of course, blooming and rejoicing in life, however, they also lack clear traces of ill-treatment in the form of beatings or prolonged starvation. Shaved, cropped, tucked up, dressed in a completely clean and neat uniform, even with insignia. And the Germans around them look good-natured, relaxed - therefore, they do not expect any dangerous surprises from Soviet generals. As for Ponedelin specifically, he managed to please the Germans with his own personal diary (a thing that any commander, if there is a risk of capture, must immediately destroy). Subsequently, this very diary allegedly ended up in the hands of SMERSH employees. On its pages, the general scolded both the Soviet government and its leaders, and collectivization with industrialization ... Again, lies?

I will make a reservation right away that Ponedelin and Kirillov, who were shot after the end of the Great Patriotic War and their return to the USSR, were rehabilitated "outright" in Khrushchev's times as completely innocent. Like, in captivity they behaved with dignity, all offers of cooperation were rejected. The photographs, which are definitely not fake, raise doubts about this. Moreover, some Russian military historians directly point to the extremely strange, whether unprofessional, or simply going into the hands of the enemy actions of General Ponedelin when he surrendered the Letichevsky Stronghold, as well as during the battles in the same "Uman pit". One more thing. Together with these two generals at the same time and in the same place, the Nazis also captured the commander of the 6th Army, Lieutenant General Ivan Muzychenko. At the same time, he was seriously wounded in the leg and could not move independently. So - also returned to the Soviet Union in 1945, Muzychenko was not subjected to any repressions. He was reinstated in the party and in the cadres of the Red Army, after a thorough investigation, of course.

Kirillov and Ponedelin were also arrested and were far from suddenly convicted - as were a number of Soviet generals who survived German captivity. The fates of their other comrades in misfortune have developed in a completely different way. However, this is a topic for a completely different conversation, which will take place next time.
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  1. gorenina91 Online
    gorenina91 (Irina) 15 August 2020 12: 21
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    - So much has been written ... - It is very, very difficult to understand all this ...
    - All some orders of Stalin ... - No. 270 and others ... - Wasn't it easier in the "code of honor" of every major Russian (Soviet) military leader (under his personal signature) to impose a mandatory clause stating that he (this military leader) did not surrender alive ... - He himself will shoot himself or give an order to the adjutant to shoot him ... - this is already particular ... - After all, many Soviet generals were captured in perfect health; able to move on their feet and not even wounded ... -Such things ... -Maybe they refused direct cooperation with the Germans; but they could still (and did) provide information about many of the commanders of the Red Army with whom they were closely acquainted ... - about their families, wives, children and other details ... - And this is not so little ... - So that..................
    And if we take into account the fact that many of the highest commanders of the Red Army fought in such a way that ... as if they were faced with the primary task ... is to destroy as many of their own troops as possible with the help of enemy troops; then many of Stalin's orders no longer seem so fierce ... - So that such generals, German generals, whose armies would suffer such catastrophic losses ... - and out of the blue, when it was possible to act professionally enough; but this was not done ... - So that such generals get from Hitler ???
    - I personally still do not understand ... how is General Pavlov at the very beginning of the war ... - just took and opened the front to the Germans ???
    The surrender of the Crimea to the Germans is also incomprehensible to me, when they could easily be thrown back and smashed by the superior forces of the Red Army ??? -The same Manstein then gave the order to shoot his own commander for not being efficient enough ... in the Crimea ...
    - Well, Pavlov was shot; several military leaders "for Crimea" were also shot; But there were no executions of the generals of the Red Army by tens and hundreds ... -So ... -It's very difficult to judge Stalin's orders ...
  2. steelmaker Offline
    steelmaker 15 August 2020 15: 31
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    Know everything in comparison, compare yourself with others!

    Now everyone wants to occupy high positions, receive high salaries, but no one wants to answer.

    No matter where it happens
    drowned, exploded,
    apparently it just so happened
    so, apparently, it happened ...


    And order # 270 told everyone that there would be no mercy for betrayal. Everyone, even the dead, will have to answer! Stalin was faithful to his words: "You criticize - offer, offer - do, do - answer!" And pay attention. All cases of betrayal were thoroughly dealt with, even after death and after the war! Order # 270 is fair !!!
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  4. Oleg Rambover Offline
    Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 16 August 2020 15: 08
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    It's funny, but according to this order, both Karbyshev and Vlasov committed the same crime and their families are subject to arrest.

    In fact, the story of Jacob's "captivity" was a Nazi fake, he died in battle, but that doesn't change matters. Signing such an order, Stalin did not know this yet, but he was certainly aware of the disappearance of his son.

    The author is too keen on alternative history.

    Since the order No. 270 that we have mentioned just says that "cowards and deserters" should be considered those commanders of battalions and regiments (not platoons and not companies!), Who during the battle are not present in the forward order, but "hide in the cracks or mess around in the office. "

    Some kind of nonsense, the battalion commander, and even more so the regiment, should not run around the battlefield, he must lead the battle with the NP, see the situation, have contact with subordinates and superiors, it is difficult to do this in advanced orders. In my opinion, this part of the order was stupidly ignored in the troops.

    It was such a time ... Comrade Mehlis personally reported this episode to Stalin - a man who, to put it mildly, was keen on finding and exposing "enemies of the people" in the army. Subsequently, Kachalov, of course, was rehabilitated, but during the war years, his relatives took a dare, as they say, in full ...

    The family was arrested. Punished innocent and innocent in one bottle. "The time was like that" - a ridiculous excuse.

    More than 600 thousand servicemen of that war are still missing. Their families were deprived of help, but their fate repeats the fate of Kachalov, with the only difference that their graves were not found.

    PS The order actually took the families of commanders hostage (experience of a civil war). Here one of two things, either Stalin totally did not trust his commanders, or the commanders were not loyal to the Soviet authorities and Stalin in a significant number. I'm sure the first one.

    My personal opinion that such orders cannot be given to the active army, it undermines the credibility of the commander.
    And it seems that he was an attempt to shift responsibility for the failures of the beginning of the war from Stalin to the soldiers and commanders of the Red Army. There is no other meaning in it.
  5. Nikolay Malyugin (Nikolai Malyugin) 18 August 2020 09: 25
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    To whom does the author want to explain the correctness of the Second World War? Liberals? They have other tasks opposite to the author. People who are now 30 years old? They have already been brought up on new history. What liberals say about war is spelled out in history books. And we old people know about all this not from books, but from the stories of front-line soldiers.
  6. Michael1950 Offline
    Michael1950 (Michael) 20 August 2020 09: 01
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    This order was dictated by the catastrophic unwillingness of the soldiers and commanders of the Red Army to fight after the start of the war on June 22.06.41, 1941, when the war went absolutely not according to the propaganda clichés that had been suggested earlier: "with little blood and on foreign territory." By the end of 3.8, 1.5 million people were captured by the Germans, 3 million deserted, about XNUMX million were killed - in fact, the entire Red Army, standing on the western border. This order was dictated by the catastrophic situation at the front. Thanks to the boundless mobilization reserves of the USSR, the destroyed first army was replaced by a new one ...
  7. Michael1950 Offline
    Michael1950 (Michael) 20 August 2020 09: 05
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    The same Manstein then gave the order to shoot his own military leader for not being efficient enough ... in the Crimea ...

    Can you quote this interesting fact ?! What kind of German commanders did Manstein shoot in 1941 ?? This is something incredible, check back!
    1. 321 Offline
      321 (321) 20 August 2020 10: 04
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      ... After the landing of the Red Army forces in Feodosia (December 30) Von Sponeck his authority authorized the retreat of the division from the peninsula. This was due to the threat of encirclement of the 46th division and other parts of the Axis countries located on the peninsula. Thus, parts of the 46th division were under the threat of encirclement. Manstein's order, forbidding withdrawal, did not have time to be received by the corps radio station. The encirclement was avoided, but all the heavy weapons were left ...
      "The Sponeck Case"
      For these actions, on the recommendation of the commander of the 11th Army E. von Manstein, von Sponeck and the commander of the 46th division, Lieutenant General Kurt Giemer, were removed from command. The division was deprived of insignia. On January 23, 1942, by a military tribunal, chaired by Goering, von Sponeck was sentenced to death. Hitler replaced the execution with 6 years of imprisonment in the fortress ...

      Is your Google search banned? laughing
      1. Michael1950 Offline
        Michael1950 (Michael) 20 August 2020 11: 52
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        Fortunately, you are not banned there, and therefore it turned out that you did not die at the hands:
        a) not Manstein, but Goering (feel the difference?);
        b) merciful Hitler gave 6 years in prison instead of the death penalty ...
        I just knew earlier that Hitler, unlike Stalin, did not punish death by shooting his military leaders, even those who made a mistake at the front. They could have been demoted, removed from command, even, as in this case, judged - but if the order did not go through in time - why shoot?
        1. 321 Offline
          321 (321) 21 August 2020 06: 18
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          And it is strictly imperative for you to personally, or even better with a saber, or a saber, right?
          laughingAnd what about Hitler's practice of military leaders - read Suvorov on this topic. Everything is quite popular there ... hi
          1. Michael1950 Offline
            Michael1950 (Michael) 21 August 2020 09: 58
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            "Purification" is the only book by Viktor Suvorov (Rezun) with which I categorically disagree. I think he wrote it just as a mockery, as a prank. It is impossible to perceive it otherwise.
            Hitler did not carry out any mass destruction of his military leaders before the war. He was a madman, of course, a psychopath - but not that much!

            1. 321 Offline
              321 (321) 21 August 2020 10: 03
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              As expected, we DO NOT agree on this issue - most of the material in Suvorov's books is far-fetched to his conclusions, for what? For me, the answer is obvious, and not only for me ... hi
              But something about the generals began to appear there ... - but that's my opinion.
              1. Michael1950 Offline
                Michael1950 (Michael) 21 August 2020 10: 07
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                Suvorov wrote his books, being a fugitive under the death sentence, he could not have access to Soviet archives. But Mark Solonin for many years managed to get access to the central archive of the USSR / RF Ministry of Defense - read his books. IMHO, they are much scarier than Suvorov's books.
                1. 321 Offline
                  321 (321) 21 August 2020 10: 24
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                  I don't even know whether to disappoint you, or to make you happy - I read it, BUT, at the same time, I also had some access to the same archives earlier, and when you read the document referred to by our accusers, and in the same practically case there are still documents, a lot and explaining, and even refuting at times - but the denouncers do not even stutter about them - this already says a lot, in my opinion ...
                  I mean that some moments in Solonin's work led to the fact that I treated and treat his work with a certain caution, although this term does not quite correspond to reality, it's just that there is no time now to select the right term - a lot requires verification, and not only for him , but this is hardly possible already - for me, at least ...
                  1. Michael1950 Offline
                    Michael1950 (Michael) 21 August 2020 13: 23
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                    BUT, at the same time, I also had some access to the same archives earlier

                    - To the central archive of the Ministry of Defense ?? Well, you are a cool pepper! laughing lol How did you manage it?
                    And what in the work of Solonin causes you "apprehension"? And in the work of Alexei Isaev - does nothing cause fear? wink
                    1. 321 Offline
                      321 (321) 21 August 2020 21: 10
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                      And not only to the central, and not only the Moscow region, but all this is already in the past, I will say more, I myself had a chance to visit foreign archives, and my friends did something in your archives at that time, but it was not yesterday, but both age and the change of interests played a role ...
                      I hope next year to systematize what I have accumulated ...
                      PS And not only to Solonin I have questions, and I have questions to Isaev, and not only to Isaev, there are a few of those to whom there are almost no questions, or they are quite funny - when they crossed paths with the same Glantz, but even a year you have to strain remember).
                      Today I definitely don't want to, a professional holiday in some way), and for the next few days I won't be here ...
                      Sorry for the caps, late noticed (((
                      1. Michael1950 Offline
                        Michael1950 (Michael) 22 August 2020 02: 57
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                        Please: What are your generalized conclusions on the preparation and start of the Second World War? In a few phrases?
                      2. 321 Offline
                        321 (321) 22 August 2020 09: 32
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                        I must disappoint you - it's not like it won't work in "a few phrases", a monograph is needed here, even an article is NOT enough, I've already tried it, even if not yesterday - neither one nor the other works ... request
                      3. Michael1950 Offline
                        Michael1950 (Michael) 22 August 2020 13: 30
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                        - Let's leave the simplest and most basic question: was Stalin the main organizer of the Second World War and the most interested in the Second World War?
                      4. 321 Offline
                        321 (321) 23 August 2020 14: 54
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                        Quote: Michael1950
                        - Let's leave the simplest and most basic question: was Stalin the main organizer of the Second World War and the most interested in the Second World War?

                        No.
                      5. Michael1950 Offline
                        Michael1950 (Michael) 23 August 2020 18: 34
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                        - Then you still have to work hard - until complete enlightenment ... lol wink
                      6. 321 Offline
                        321 (321) 23 August 2020 18: 43
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                        Quote: Michael1950
                        - Then you still have to work hard - until complete enlightenment ... lol wink

                        I am definitely NOT going to ask you any advice on this or on other topics - at first you will have to get hold of a list of scientific articles and publications, although it would be on twenty A4 sheets, as you have one - write, we will talk. bully hi
                      7. 321 Offline
                        321 (321) 23 August 2020 18: 46
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                        Although even when you have such a list, DO NOT write anyway, I am simply not interested in clearly expressed phobias, the subject matter is NOT important in this case ... negative
                      8. Michael1950 Offline
                        Michael1950 (Michael) 23 August 2020 19: 01
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                        - Yes, what a phobia is there: you and others like you run from the historical truth "like the devil from incense"! Even the law was introduced in Russia "On the prohibition of distortion of history not in favor of Russia" - it is allowed to distort only in favor! laughing lol
                      9. 321 Offline
                        321 (321) 23 August 2020 19: 24
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                        Quote: Michael1950
                        - Yes, what a phobia is there: you and others like you run from the historical truth "like the devil from incense"! Even the law was introduced in Russia "On the prohibition of distortion of history not in favor of Russia" - it is allowed to distort only in favor! laughing lol

                        What kind of phobia you have, you know better - I do not want and will not delve into the nuances of your condition. laughing
                        And whoever wrote here about distortion and so on - your colleagues, together with you from Russian-speaking sites, do not crawl out, everyone is trying to prove something - that without Lend-Lease we would have lost the war in general, and so on and so forth - so before that , how to pull out a stick from someone else's eye, first remove the log from your ...
                        Well, the fact that this Federal Law appeared a little later, and, roughly speaking, in response - when you and your colleagues were interested in such trifles, right?
                      10. Michael1950 Offline
                        Michael1950 (Michael) 23 August 2020 22: 25
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                        1.

                        Russians do not get out of websites

                        - If Russian is a native language and people think in it, there is a natural desire to communicate with native speakers of the same language, what is there to be surprised? As for the endless accusations of Russophobia - for example, I absolutely do not like Putin's endless rule and do not consider it useful for Russia - but is this "Russophobia" ?? The Belarusians are now rebelling against father Lukashenka - does this mean that all these tens, and now hundreds of thousands are Belarusian phobes ?!

                        2.

                        that without Lend-Lease we would have lost the war at all

                        My father and two uncles fought with me. God forbid, of course, but without Lend-Lease, the USSR would have lost not 27 (46, 45 - no one knows for sure!) Million people, but twice as many. Without the continuous bombing of Germany by the Anglo-American aviation, by driving it into the Stone Age, it would have been terribly difficult, it would have given enormous assistance to the Soviet-German front!



                        And what's not true here ?? Try to listen and read everything carefully? "Comma on his heels, not a fool"?

                        http://www.solonin.org/article_pushki-maslo-zoloto

                        3.

                        so before pulling out the stick from someone else's eye, first remove the log from your ...

                        - I don’t collect sticks in anyone’s eyes, I am not interested in anything but the historical truth, in the history of Russia, in the history of Israel ... Of course, very often the truth is extremely difficult, and the Russian truth is simply intolerable for a number of reasons - both domestically and internationally, therefore, the time has not come to speak openly and call things by their proper names on a mass scale. We have to wait another 50-70-100 years ...
                      11. 321 Offline
                        321 (321) 23 August 2020 22: 36
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                        Much shorter - I agree that they would have fought longer and would have lost more, BUT even here it has already been repeatedly - that WOULD not win at all ...
                        And about the bombing of Germany - questions about what and how they were and remain, but of course it was help, who is arguing here ...
                        PS And about the historical truth - and you won't find it in many moments in the daytime with fire, that's where Volkogonov put his pen, his subordinates told ... they simply destroyed something, but also that something was falsified - already completely impossible, unfortunately ...
                      12. Michael1950 Offline
                        Michael1950 (Michael) 23 August 2020 23: 47
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                        - I’ll draw you a terrible scenario now: President Roosevelt and Prime Minister Churchill already in the fall of 1941 know that in 1945 there will be an atomic bomb in the United States. THERE IS NO LEND-LISA (I hope you read Solonin's article? A terrible article, for those who understand. If you haven't read it, read it!). And nothing that the industry of the USSR began to do thanks to the Lend-Lease, and there is no help at the front. The Germans continue to attack swiftly, the Japanese, seeing their enormous successes, begin military operations in the Far East against the USSR.
                        Anglo-American aviation is moderately bombing Germany without interfering with her missions in the east, or "even better": Churchill concludes a truce - the Germans are not bombing London, the Anglo-Americans are not bombing Germany!
                        And the Germans and the Japanese capture the entire Soviet Union (somewhere else there are Romanians, Italians, Spaniards).
                        And in 1945, the Americans finish the creation of the atomic bomb and begin to rivet them at an ever-increasing pace! Several atomic bombs dropped on Berlin destroy the entire military-political leadership of Germany, and she capitulates. And then everything is according to the previous plan: for Europe - the Marshall plan, and in Russia a bourgeois-democratic republic is established, whose development was stopped by the October Revolution. True, losses in Russia are estimated at about 60-70 million killed ...request
                        This option is not excluded.
                      13. 321 Offline
                        321 (321) 24 August 2020 05: 41
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                        Sorry, but I'm not interested in AF ...
          2. Michael1950 Offline
            Michael1950 (Michael) 23 August 2020 18: 47
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            - Don't tell me, please: here is General of the Army and Doctor of Military Sciences Mahmut Gareev:

            https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Гареев,_Махмут_Ахметович

            Throughout his life, he has written a lot of works - and a monstrous amount of lies.
          3. 321 Offline
            321 (321) 23 August 2020 19: 12
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            Quote: Michael1950
            - Don't tell me, please: here is General of the Army and Doctor of Military Sciences Mahmut Gareev:
            ... He has written a lot of works in his entire life - and a monstrous amount of lies.

            Your obstinacy prevents you from either understanding or learning that my list, firstly, is several times larger than the one I wrote to you about earlier, but the main thing is NOT even that - in the exact sciences, which I am mainly engaged in, it is IMPOSSIBLE to lie, figuratively speaking - twice two it is always four, but this activity is scientific, it develops many qualities - which ones I will NOT list for you, why do you need it, bully so about the lie, it's not for me ...
            PS Something neither you, nor your colleagues in hobby - Russophobia, have never written, about your beacon - someone Volkogonova, well, changed his shoes in a jump, that's okay, but then ... am - but he supported your attempts to expose everything, so not a word about his unworthy actions, so you (all) succeed .. negative
          4. Michael1950 Offline
            Michael1950 (Michael) 23 August 2020 22: 41
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            PS Something neither you, nor your colleagues in hobby - Russophobia, have never written about your beacon - someone Volkogonova, well, he changed his shoes in a jump, that's okay, but then ... am - but he's your attempts He supported everything to expose, so not a word about his unworthy actions, so you (all) succeed ..

            - There was such a traitor in ancient Judea, his name was Joseph Flavius. 2000 years have passed - is it important for someone that from the point of view of those times he committed an unseemly act? No, his value for all these 2000 years past (and the devil knows how many thousand years in the future) lies in the fact that he wrote two absolutely priceless books: "The Jewish War" and "Jewish Antiquities".
            Here is Vladimir Rezun (Viktor Suvorov) - an undoubted traitor, 100% a traitor. Sentenced to death in absentia and, perhaps, someday he will be poisoned with something, like Skripal, Litvinenko, etc. Over the next CENTURIES, he will be known for the first time to tear the veil of secrecy from something that, in general, has never really been hidden: that the leadership of the USSR, headed by Stalin, was the main and main organizer of the Second World War. And it was supposed to become the main beneficiary, but because of Stalin's personality, because of the peculiarities of his nature, because of the repressions he carried out neither to the place nor to the time and on a completely indecent scale, whose main and only purpose was to consolidate their power, the desire to make it limitless - and there was a catastrophe of the beginning of the war, which will immediately be called the Great Patriotic War. But if the country had been ruled all these years not by Stalin, but by Trotsky, for example, nothing of the kind would have come close. Most likely, the Second World War would not have happened, at least not as we know it.
            I'm not at all sure that these fairly simple truths can fit in your mind and knock out the stereotypes that Soviet propaganda has driven you into there over the decades ...
            “I don’t care what Colonel-General Volkogonov has done there ?! I am interested in: WHAT DID HE DO USEFUL IN THE FIELD OF INTERESTING TO ME? And if he .... his secretary and she screamed 30 years later: "Harrassment!" - as it was with our President Moshe Katsav, - I don't give a damn about these trifles ...
          5. 321 Offline
            321 (321) 23 August 2020 22: 46
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            To base such global conclusions on rezun is something) but this is without me, I have already read more than a dozen books, where his "work", well, we will write briefly, they expose ...
            I already wrote to you - sometimes he has the same conclusions, but the material for them is simply adjusted and not always even decently, there is no talk about quality ...
          6. Michael1950 Offline
            Michael1950 (Michael) 23 August 2020 23: 58
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            To base such global conclusions on rezun is something) but this is without me, I have already read more than a dozen books, where his "work", well, we will write briefly, they expose ...

            - Well, don't be ridiculous, "professor": the GRU analysts on troop movements are "exposed" by spies who graduated from universities with a degree in history and social science. I didn’t expect such a misunderstanding from you, “who is hu” and why the history teacher for the military analyst of the GRU not only “wasn’t suitable for a spot,” but in general, even next to him, “didn’t lie close.” I read this "criticism" of Suvorov - it is ridiculous.

            I already wrote to you - sometimes he has the same conclusions, but the material for them is simply adjusted and not always even decently, there is no talk about quality ...

            - Well, come on: I, a simple Soviet lieutenant colonel, a military pilot, is not at all the stupidest officer, - I can estimate how much the spade Alexei Isaev is inferior to the GRU analyst Vladimir Rezun ... lol I don’t know what sciences you are engaged in, perhaps botany, or you are an entomologist, but I get the feeling that in military affairs, history teachers "hung noodles" for you too much ...
          7. 321 Offline
            321 (321) 24 August 2020 06: 03
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            How self-confident you are - I don't know how it is now, but about ten years ago, there was more than one forum that was simply not taken from the street - recommendations, relevant articles and so on, such as a probationary period - were needed there was a considerable part of what I read about rezuna, and what publishers churn out - absorb it yourself. hi So what about the level - like, the analyst is against ... - leave, there were a lot of such analysts, and with more experience, and with better epaulettes ... You just get there first, it was not easy before, but now it's easy for me it ceased to be interesting - other interests appeared ...
            and shake off the noodles FIRST at home - I already wrote - I'm not interested in the genre of alternatives, hang these noodles to someone else - I won't succeed. bully
            PS It seems to you that you can appreciate - that's all, but your shoulder straps and so on ... why is it here? You still don’t know about mine, I don’t write about it, I don’t write at all whether you like it or not, and besides, I’m not just sticking out my regalia, I’m just not going to write about them - to whom and what should I prove? You or the commentators here, like Gorenina, who has to not only chew the elementary things, but also put them in her mouth, and even swallow them for her, why do I need this happiness? negative
            About Kolchak, White Czechs and so on - well, a very typical example ...
      2. 321 Offline
        321 (321) 23 August 2020 22: 57
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        Quote: Michael1950
        ... I am interested in: WHAT DID HE DO USEFUL IN THE FIELD OF INTERESTING TO ME? And if he .... his secretary and she screamed 30 years later: "Harrassment!" - as it was with our President Moshe Katsav - I don't give a damn about these trifles ...

        Destruction of historical documents, and plus to this there are very strong suspicions of falsification of documents - on his order, if his subordinates told me about the destruction - with examples, then on the second point - even they have suspicions, something like - a folder - in her inventory, people worked with the folder for almost six months, the contents know almost by heart, and then a couple of months later, as he finished with it and handed it over, he takes it again - and lo and behold - of what was = already half and not even anymore, but there is something new - well, people asks the one who brought in all this - where, they say, the firewood? The respondent hesitates, turns pale, blushes, does not say anything, only shows with his hand upwards and whispers - well, you know ... if it's very short.
      3. Michael1950 Offline
        Michael1950 (Michael) 24 August 2020 00: 01
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        - Did he just imitate the handwriting of Stalin and all his marshals with his own hand? What did he imitate then ?? Any examination today will easily identify any new model! Moreover, a lot of reports were then written by hand, for reasons of secrecy, even the most trusted typists were not given the opportunity to read it ...
      4. 321 Offline
        321 (321) 24 August 2020 05: 47
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        Who will conduct this examination? hi
        In general, it is understandable - this did not surprise you, and did not scare you much - it is useless to keep on correspondence, and even after your "professor" - there are much more letters, different, and attentiveness is NOT your strong quality - he wrote "exact" ...
        But you and your comrades now have so much room for imagination - well, well ...