Whose interests were defended by the White Guards during the Civil War in Russia


The White Guard is a devoted patriot of Russia, who fought with the "red plague", the ruined color of the nation. It is this image for opponents of the Soviet regime that is created in the oligarchic media and is portrayed in films sponsored by the Ministry of Culture. However, historical facts suggest the opposite.


The main goal of the white movement, which proclaimed itself national liberation, was not patriotism and the restoration of the Russian Empire, but the return of power to the bourgeoisie. At the same time, the so-called saviors of the Russian world were directly funded by capitalists from abroad who were afraid of the spread of communism.

For all the time of the civil war in Russia there was not a single candidate for ruler who did not receive support from the imperialists, and all the generals who headed the white movement were supported by foreign interventionists.

In fact, opposing the Bolsheviks, the White Guards simply contributed to the looting of the national wealth of their homeland. At the same time, their main tool was violence, later called the "white terror."

Public executions, the creation of concentration camps, the repression of those suspected of sympathizing with the Bolsheviks, and even the use of chemical weapons. All this was regularly practiced by the white movement together with the armies of foreign occupiers.

In the Far East, repression of civilians has reached “industrial” proportions. Moreover, the lion's share of crimes lies precisely with the “liberators”.

However, the "efforts" of the White Guards only strengthened the resistance to the interventionists and the support of the Bolsheviks. The merciless exploitation of workers in factories caused constant strikes, and the landless peasants raised uprisings.

Ultimately, the white movement was defeated. However, his "adepts" did not leave any hope of returning. So, during the years of World War II, it was from the “whites” who fled from Russia that the fascist command formed punitive corps.

The civil war provoked by the White Guards led to millions of victims, famine and increased poverty. At the same time, modern bourgeois power continues to persistently “whitewash” its ideological predecessors. Indeed, as a hundred years ago, the goal of the current "patriots" of Russia is to rob the workers and preserve the dictatorship of capital.

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  1. gorenina91 Offline
    gorenina91 (Irina) 14 July 2020 13: 17
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    Whose interests were defended by the White Guards during the Civil War in Russia

    - It’s hard to say anything definite here at all ...
    - Personally, I would have somehow understood if the White Guards (basically it was the former officer corps that swore allegiance to the autocracy) would have fought for the restoration of tsarist rule ... - And then there was a direct betrayal of Russian officers by their oath; almost the entire officer corps "changed its shoes" right on the fly ...- he was just hired for other things ... against the fight against the Bolsheviks ... - That’s the traitorous nature of the cohort of all this officer tinsel ... - All the gilding flew quickly ... - But what about then the often mentioned, already utterly battered phrase that, they say, “Russia has only two allies ... are the Army and Navy” ...- These are “allies” and turned out to be for Russia ...- both the Army and the Navy ... - And there were still songs a'lya ".. distribute cartridges, Lieutenant Golitsyn; Cornet Obolensky ...", etc ... - After all, that’s all. ..- as if about the "patriots" who swore allegiance to Tsarist Russia ...
    - But, it’s one thing to sing "sentimental songs"; and another - in fact, to turn out to be an ordinary estate of fake .. staged theatrical miserable comedians who want to pose as "knights" ...
    - Well ...- it is clear ...- how this performance ended ...
    - In general ...- personally, I believe that for Russia the most objective, rational and acceptable form of state existence ... is the "Socialist State" ...
    - Well, but in the "second place" (as a fallback) ... - Because socialism for Russia, as it turned out ... is too much - a modern, progressive and chic form of economic political structure ...
    - So ...- in second place for Russia ... for Russia today, such an option would be quite suitable ... like the "Constitutional Monarchy" ...
    - But ...- neither one ... nor the other ...- today is not expected ...
    1. andrew42 Offline
      andrew42 (Andrei) 16 July 2020 18: 12
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      I fully support about the socialist state! Without this, Russia, the Russian people, in particular, and the peoples of Russia in common, among future generations, will have no future. Socialism is the path of sound self-preservation for any nation, for any society, but not all nations are able to dare to step on it. The monarchy - is not able to protect the nation from corruption by the bourgeois cosmopolitans, without the ideology of the common cause prevailing over private interest - any monarch, even the most "popular" one, will ring in the structureless management system of usurers, will undergo personality decomposition, or be overthrown / deposed / poisoned / shot in the wake of "just" (bourgeois!) anger. About the current Russian oligarchy so generally talk sick. Well, those same “whites” came in 1991-1993. They treat us with pseudo-“patriotism”, that is to say, with humility, stuffing pockets with oligarchs, and a little dissatisfaction - they scare us, we will hand over meat to foreign bourgeois! Such is the unpretentious "ideology" of the modern Russian State.
      1. Tatyana Offline
        Tatyana 18 July 2020 13: 55
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        At the same time, modern bourgeois power continues to persistently “whitewash” its ideological predecessors. After all, just like a hundred years ago, the aim of the current "patriots" of Russia is to rob the working people and preserve the dictatorship of capital.

        That's right!
        Even the Mannerheim memorial plaque, posted in St. Petersburg and reverently opened by Sergei Ivanov and Medinsky, is a vivid example of this.

        Memorial plaque to Mannerheim unveiled in St. Petersburg • 16 Jun. 2016 year



        The ex-head of the Kremlin administration, and now the president's special envoy for environmental protection, gave Komsomolskaya Pravda the first interview in his new position.
        Ivanov: Marginals were against the Mannerheim board. Oct 18, 2016

    2. Vladimir Tuzakov (Vladimir Tuzakov) Yesterday, 10: 28
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      The article completely does not correspond to the truth ... The first reason for the white, and not only, resistance, was the dispersal of the All-Russian Constituent Assembly by the Bolsheviks, which in fact closed the election of the new Russian government, and the usurpation of power by the Bolsheviks. Before the Constituent Assembly, appointed and approved by everyone in the summer by the Provisional Government, the Bolsheviks, having dispersed the Provisional Government, had the rights of the same interim rulers, and did not bother anyone who would rule Russia for those few months before the All-Russian elections ... The first slogans of the entire movement, not only white, - for the All-Russian Constituent Assembly and the election of power !!!
      There was never a white movement for the monarchy and there were almost no monarchists in their ranks - this is a lie for the propaganda of the Bolsheviks and others (study history by facts, not by the lies of propaganda, for which the Bolsheviks were famous) ...
  2. Bulanov Offline
    Bulanov (Vladimir) 14 July 2020 13: 22
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    Trotsky and Sverdlov also distinguished themselves in the wake of the destruction of the Russian people. It was a civil war in which each class fought for its own.
    From the Bolsheviks -

    From the Directive of the Revolutionary Military Council of the 8th Army dated March 1522, 17 No. 1919 “On the quick and decisive destruction of the Cossacks”: “All Cossacks must be completely destroyed, all those who have any relation to anti-Soviet agitation must be destroyed, without stopping before the percentage destruction of the population of the villages, burn the hamlets and villages ... There is no pity ... All units are ordered to go through fire and sword through the area ...

    But the “Whites” were undoubtedly the first to launch the flywheel of the Civil War, contributing to the abdication of the Russian Tsar Nicholas II. It was they who betrayed the autocracy and were then brutally punished by Fate for their betrayal. The founder of the White movement, General Alekseev, directly incited the tsar to abdicate. Or did he not realize that during the war it just wouldn’t pass, and the country would be at a dangerous point?
    1. andrew42 Offline
      andrew42 (Andrei) 16 July 2020 17: 58
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      The struggle of the classes is understandable. Only Trotsky and Sverdlov are no class, just haters of the Russian state in any form. And no proletarians. In fact - political vultures and hidden Zionists who straddled the deep tsunami of popular indignation. For the Russian peasant and worker, such figures are “the enemy of the enemy”, the enemy of the national Russian bourgeoisie.
  3. boriz Offline
    boriz (boriz) 14 July 2020 15: 35
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    The White Guards and the interventionists gave the Bolsheviks a good head start in the brutality of terror. This is a concentration camp (not the only one) in Mudyug, flooded barges with hundreds of people in Vladivostok. In the south of Russia, whites were distinguished by sophistication, such as taking a large barrel (wooden), hammering many, many nails (so that they stuck out well from inside), stuffing the captured Bolshevik there, hammering the lid and rolling the barrel from a high mountain.
    White's victory would have turned into such a battle that a real Civil War would have seemed like children's games in the sandbox. Therefore, as a unity and really authoritative and capable leaders among them were not.
    Therefore, in the process of the Bolsheviks coming to power, the West did not support the Whites, but the Bolsheviks. White was kept just so that the starting positions of the Bolsheviks would not be too strong.
    In 1918, Yudenich did not nearly dream of the support that Poland later provided. Airplanes were sent to him (really) (remarkable at that time), but they forgot to equip with a propeller, guns of one caliber — shells of another, etc. In short, more like sabotage.
    And the Bolsheviks, initially, were a project of the West. They had to create a centralized power, and the West would seize this power. These are options for barracks communism and forced labor in the "labor camps" of Trotsky and Bukharin.
    When Lenin, Stalin, and their team headed for the restoration of the empire, Lenin was "criticized" at the Michelson factory, and then they simply started to poison us slowly. But this did not help, and it was not possible to organize a military intervention, for economic reasons and the reluctance to fight the peoples who had just passed the WWII. Despite the fact that the Bolsheviks inside the country were becoming stronger.
    So the whites themselves did not know what they were fighting for. By decree "On the land," Lenin immediately knocked out the support of the peasantry (at that time, the vast majority of the population). They did not have effective support from the West.
    Reflected in the literature (“Adjutant of His Excellency”, “Quiet Don”, etc.), the supply of weapons and military equipment, up to tanks and aircraft, occurred too late, and did not play a role against the backdrop of the strengthening of the Red Army.
    By the way, the escalation of the Civil War was launched by Trotsky and the white whispers. Trotsky gave the command to disarm the Whites, who were a well-armed and organized significant force, occupying key positions on the Trans-Siberian Railway. The squirrels naturally did not like this.
    Until the spring of 1918, Lenin believed (and wrote about this) that the civil war was basically over.
  4. gorenina91 Offline
    gorenina91 (Irina) 14 July 2020 17: 09
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    Until the spring of 1918, Lenin believed (and wrote about this) that the civil war was basically over.

    - Lenin never wrote such nonsense ... - Lenin wrote on May 29! 918 to the Revolutionary Military Council of the Eastern Front:

    "If we do not conquer the Urals before winter, then I consider the death of the revolution inevitable."

    - But the fact that

    Trotsky gave the command to disarm the Whites, who were a well-armed and organized significant force, occupying key positions on the Trans-Siberian Railway.

    - That was done so clumsyly that it turned the Czechs against the Bolsheviks ...- They could not quietly disband the Czechoslovak corps and disarm it ... - And to create separate detachments of the Red Army from it ...- They would be great then to the Bolsheviks ...
    - And even more with these Czechs then Kolchak slobbed "loosened" ... - The Czechs seized echelons and stretched for hundreds of kilometers along the railway ...; moreover, RI captured the “Golden Reserve” ...- They had to be neutralized immediately ... - On these “stretched paths” the Czechs were very vulnerable; and only Kolchak’s lack of will allowed them to do everything in Siberia that they please ...
    - The Czechs literally sat on Kolchak’s head and ruled with might and main ... - Somehow, the Czechs suddenly began to command Kolchak’s counterintelligence and could arrest any Kolchak officer ... - this is the number !!! - Czech patrols roamed Omsk and carried out arrests and executions ... - And then the Czechs seized Kolchak as a cover and just handed it over to the Bolsheviks near Irkutsk ... - and left Russia completely unpunished; and take Russian gold with you ...
    - Yes, and Denikin on the Southern Front ...- also could not organize anything (except for the stupid clicky "Ice Campaign") - there was always a bickering with the Don army ...
    - These are such mediocre White Guard fighters who tried to defeat the inept Bolsheviks ...
    - Here I personally ...- I simply can not stand Trotsky; but I think that his actions of cossacking the Cossacks were absolutely right ... - let the patriots throw me with minuses ... - At any moment, the Cossacks could make a bloody mess and quite large-scale ... - In “Quiet Don” Sholokhov clearly about it was written ... - And who would then constantly “nurse” with them ... and watch them vigilantly and wonder ...- what is on their mind ...
    1. boriz Offline
      boriz (boriz) 14 July 2020 19: 39
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      - Lenin never wrote such nonsense ...

      Filter the bazaar. Galimatia is 80% of what you write.
      Without delving into the wilds:

      But, in the main, the task of suppressing the resistance of the exploiters was already solved in the period from October 25, 1917 to (approximately) February 1918, or before the surrender of Bogaevsky.
      Now the third task is being put forward, as the next and making up the uniqueness of the moment being experienced, is the third task - to organize the management of Russia. Of course, this task was set and solved by us on the very same day after October 25, 1917, but so far, while the resistance of the exploiters still took the form of an open civil war, until now the task of control could not become the main, central one.
      Now she has become one.
      .

      This article is "The Immediate Tasks of the Soviet Government", the manuscript was entitled "Theses on the tasks of the Soviet government at the moment." Lenin's "Theses" were discussed at a meeting of the Central Committee of the Party on April 26, 1918. The Central Committee unanimously approved them and decided to publish it in the form of an article in Pravda and Izvestia of the All-Russian Central Executive Committee, as well as to publish a separate brochure.

      In a speech at the Moscow Soviet of Workers, Peasants, and Red Army Deputies on April 23, 1918, Lenin said:
      "It can be said with confidence that the civil war is basically over."

      Further also a continuous sur:

      - They could not quietly disband the Czechoslovak corps and disarm it ... - And to create separate detachments of the Red Army from it ...

      Why do you consider everyone but yourself fools? This corps reached 50 thousand and was the most combat-ready armed force on the territory of Soviet Russia. No one, in their right mind, will surrender their weapons in the context of the ongoing civil war. People were sent through Russia, Vladivostok, France home, to Czechoslovakia and were not going to fight, especially in a foreign civil war. 200 people fell on the Bolshevik agitation. (including J. Hasek) especially stubborn.

      only Kolchak’s lack of will allowed them to do everything in Siberia that they please ...
      - The Czechs literally sat on Kolchak’s head ...

      Formally, the corps of white whites was part of the French army under the command of General Maurice Janin. Kolchak was completely controlled by the Entente. And who will let Kolchak rock the Czechs?

      - The Czechs captured the trains and stretched for hundreds of kilometers along the railway ...

      Czechs returned to their homeland through Vladivostok in agreement with the Soviet government.
      I’ll just keep silent about the Cossacks ...
      1. gorenina91 Offline
        gorenina91 (Irina) 15 July 2020 06: 33
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        - Here, personally, I have nothing against the "Kazakh diaspora" (as they say - "nothing personal") ... - But to resist it "numerically" ... - personally, I ... naturally can not ...
        - Well, then what follows ... - the ordinary "Pupkin's Arithmetic" ...
        1. 321 Offline
          321 (321) 15 July 2020 09: 35
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          In essence, what is there?
          In the meantime, apart from the ideas to disarm the Czechs “in a quiet way”, nothing has sounded from you, well, I would like to know the details from you — how do you think it is better to do this? hi
          1. gorenina91 Offline
            gorenina91 (Irina) 15 July 2020 10: 30
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            In each echelon, leave for their own protection an armed company of 168 people, including non-commissioned officers, and one machine gun, for each rifle 300, for a machine gun 1200 charges. All other rifles and machine guns, all guns should be handed over to the Russian government in the hands of a special commission in Penza, consisting of three representatives of the Czechoslovak army and three representatives of the Soviet government ...

            - Not so good were the Czechs and armed ...; to fight, but in order to "scare", and this was enough ...

            - As I personally would have done (disarmament of the Czechs) ... ...- at least in the "place of Kolchak" ...
            - Firstly ...- personally, I would immediately warn the command of the Czech corps; that ... that ... that in the event of failure to deliver weapons, mass echelons will be carried out on all railway tracks along which the Czech echelons moved ... - And for clarity, several echelons would be derailed ... - these trains would have been blown up while traveling ... by rail ...
            - Most likely, this would be enough to start the mass surrender of weapons by the Czechs ... - This whole notorious Czechoslovak corps would cease to exist ...
            - Secondly ..: the Czechs were sitting in carriages-warmths (which are from the boards) and which were “not armored trains” ... - Everything was shot through and through ... - How many such a train is being “defended” by an armed company, which is not so too much ammunition ???
            - And where would the Czechs go from their wagons ??? - The roads are littered with logs ... whatever ... - the train is in the field ... or in the forest, in the taiga ... - Where should the Czechs go ??? - There are no cartridges; no food ... - Bayonets, or something, would defend ???
            - By the way ... - The Don Army quickly ran out of ammunition and there was absolutely nothing for it to shoot ... - Well, it was the Cossacks ...- with sabers, on horses ...- they could move quickly ... - And the Cossacks were at home ...- in their Don steppes ...
            - And where were the Czechs ??? - Over thousands of kilometers from their homeland in the vast expanses of Siberia ...
            - And the weak “woe-commander” Kolchak did not have the will; to cope with the Czechoslovak corps stretched over hundreds of kilometers !!!
            - Kolchak, who had a whole army:

            400 thousand people, 211 guns, 1,3 thousand machine guns, 12 armored vehicles, 5 armored trains, 15 aircraft.

            - It had to be such a mediocre commander ... - Kolchak could not even disarm the Czechs ... - Hahah ..
            - It's even ...- just not really talking ...
            1. 321 Offline
              321 (321) 15 July 2020 11: 33
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              Quote: gorenina91
              In each echelon, leave for their own protection an armed company of 168 people, including non-commissioned officers, and one machine gun, for each rifle 300, for a machine gun 1200 charges. All other rifles and machine guns, all guns should be handed over to the Russian government in the hands of a special commission in Penza, consisting of three representatives of the Czechoslovak army and three representatives of the Soviet government ...

              - Not so good were the Czechs and armed ...; to fight, but in order to "scare", and this was enough ...

              - As I personally would have done (disarmament of the Czechs) ... ...- at least in the "place of Kolchak" ...
              - Firstly ...- personally, I would immediately warn the command of the Czech corps; that ... that ... that in the event of failure to deliver weapons, mass echelons will be carried out on all railway tracks along which the Czech echelons moved ... - And for clarity, several echelons would be derailed ... - these trains would have been blown up while traveling ... by rail ...
              - Most likely, this would be enough to start the mass surrender of weapons by the Czechs ... - This whole notorious Czechoslovak corps would cease to exist ...
              - Secondly ..: the Czechs were sitting in carriages-warmths (which are from the boards) and which were “not armored trains” ... - Everything was shot through and through ... - How many such a train is being “defended” by an armed company, which is not so too much ammunition ???
              - And where would the Czechs go from their wagons ??? - The roads are littered with logs ... whatever ... - the train is in the field ... or in the forest, in the taiga ... - Where should the Czechs go ??? - There are no cartridges; no food ... - Bayonets, or something, would defend ???

              Everything is approximately as expected - there is an idea, but the ways of its implementation - well, I will write softly - are close to fantasy.
              What is the armament of the Czechs, what is the fantasy of blocking and destroying them? At that time, NOBODY WOULD HAVE TO GIVE A WEAPON, you have a rifle - you can do a lot of things, you don’t have weapons - you are either a candidate for the dead or very close to it, so what about disarmament - past initially ...
              And the mention of the strength of Kolchak’s troops — well, all of them simply had nothing to do but block and disarm the Czechs, the amount of forces required for this, and we don’t even remember ...
              I don’t remember about the technique you’ve outlined either - with one train it’s easy, but with more power it won’t work, there’s no point in setting forth anymore, you still won’t understand, alas ...
              1. gorenina91 Offline
                gorenina91 (Irina) 15 July 2020 12: 26
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                What is the armament of the Czechs, that the options for blocking and destroying them are fantastic

                - What kind of fiction ... - Everything is stated clearly and “according to the laws of the military revolutionary time” ... - This is not a war of the Indians on the American prairies ... - This is armed Siberia ... - The rails were blocked with logs from one and the other parties; and one or two three-inch guns were pulled into this place in advance and into this stopped train with rebel Czechs ... several shells were planted from 150-200 meters (even the rails do not need to be blown up) ...- they carried several cars into pieces. - And so - with several echelons ...- this was the end of the matter ... The Czechs would give up, would not have disappeared ... - What could they do ...- not the products; no coal and water for steam locomotives ... We would shoot back to the last cartridge; and then, who survived ...- they would have gone to the taiga ...- this is fiction ... - Yes, it’s not even ... - Hahah ... - - this is not even funny ...

                with one train it’s easy, but with more power

                - Once again, I repeat ... - Where did the Czechs get coal and water for steam locomotives ??? - That's just one echelon and could break through ... - And all the other echelons ...- would just get up and stand as a huge continuous "caterpillar"; with a distance from train to train several kilometers ... - and how long would they stand ??? - No food, no drinking water ... - would you like to go hunting in the forest, or something ...- would you go ??? - And the Siberian winter, and the cold ???
                - It’s just that the main role was played by Kolchak’s cowardice and his desire to please absolutely everyone ... - It was a fatal mistake ...- to choose the “supreme commander-in-chief” ...- such a cowardly mediocrity ...- I’m also the “royal admiral”. .. - But he had such a powerful army ... - Be someone else in his place ...- at least the former tsarist general K. Mannerheim (who created the Finnish armed forces literally from scratch) ... - That Mannerheim with such a powerful army he would have simply turned mountains; and I would have dealt with the Czechs (with their body) instantly ... - we wouldn’t even have time to utter a peep ...
                - Yes, even Denikin ...- be he in the place of Kolchak ...
                1. 321 Offline
                  321 (321) 15 July 2020 19: 55
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                  Quote: gorenina91
                  ... This is armed Siberia ... - Ridged the rails with logs on either side; and one or two three-inch guns were pulled into this place in advance and into this stopped train with rebel Czechs ... several shells were planted from 150-200 meters (even the rails do not need to be blown up) ...- they carried several cars into pieces. - And so - with several echelons ...- this was the end of it ... the Czechs would give up, would not have disappeared ...

                  It is clear that further discussion with you does not make sense - well, at least you need to have a slight idea of ​​the basics of at least military affairs before writing such comments - here they’ll just drop 50 snouts and sit straight, of course, of course, and will wait until they are shot first echelon, then second and further on the list ... and we "seem to believe" you. laughing bully hi
                  1. gorenina91 Offline
                    gorenina91 (Irina) 16 July 2020 05: 20
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                    It is clear that further discussion with you does not make sense - well, at least you need to have a slight idea of ​​the basics of at least military affairs before writing such comments - here they’ll just drop 50 snouts and sit straight, of course, of course, and will wait until they are shot first echelon, then second and further on the list ... and we "seem to believe" you.

                    - It seems that you really do not understand anything in military affairs ...
                    - The locomotives were simply put out of action ... the rails were dismantled in many places (20-30 meters) on the paths between the cities and (carried away from the paths into the forests) ...... - this is thousands of kilometers ... - And that’s it ... - The entire Czech corps would go on foot across Siberia to Daln. East ... - Good luck ... - The Siberian men would have passed them all in the forests and taiga ... - Yes, and in the bitter frosts - in the taiga just grace !!! - Maybe one of them would have reached ... - Hahah ...
                    - From Omsk to Irkutsk 2500 km ... - and that’s all the taiga, the taiga ... - And how much to Omsk from Russian Europe ??? - And to Daln. East how much the general way will be ???
                    - If you play the fool, giving your "arguments"; then go on with someone else ...
                    1. 321 Offline
                      321 (321) 16 July 2020 08: 11
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                      Quote: gorenina91
                      ... - It seems that you really do not understand anything in military affairs ...- If you play the fool, giving your "arguments"; then go on with someone else ...

                      Quote: gorenina91
                      ... - The locomotives were simply incapacitated ... the rails were dismantled in many places (20-30 meters each) on the paths between the cities and (carried away from the paths to the forests) ...

                      Of course, of course, carried away and thrown away, right? And far gone? And they still tied up the knot, or do you propose to take them with you who have taken it with you? laughing

                      Quote: gorenina91
                      ... - The entire Czech corps would go on foot across Siberia to Daln. East ... - Good luck ... - The Siberian men would have passed them all in the forests and taiga ...

                      They were traveling on the last steam locomotives in Russia, and they were put out of action and that’s all - all the locomotives ended - and the men organized themselves so abruptly into the first anti-Czech army, in the amount of one hundred thousand - one hundred and fifty, right? bully

                      Quote: gorenina91
                      ... - Yes, and in the bitter frosts - in the taiga just grace !!! - Maybe one of them would have reached ...

                      Well, of course, they all rode in swimming trunks, and well, there was nothing and nobody around for miles of miles - continue to invent your fairy tales further. bully

                      Quote: gorenina91
                      ... - From Omsk to Irkutsk 2500 km ... - and all the taiga, taiga ... And to Omsk from Russian Europe how much ??? - And to Daln. East, how much will the total path be ??? ...

                      And only on foot, well, that's all-all already disabled? - poison further negative

                      Quote: gorenina91
                      ... - If you play the fool, giving your "arguments"; then go on with someone else ...

                      So far, I see here an attempt by a senior lieutenant, possibly a reserve, who did not command anyone or anything (from the units, not to mention the development of plans for at least some operations) to try to pretend that it’s not clear that, like the developer of the operation, well, at least operational scale ... hi
                      The result of this attempt, as expected - no, so, floodlights ... bully
                      PS And continue to still believe that there was only one company and there were strictly three hundred rounds on the rifle, and not one more, and no one ever tried to break these agreements ...

                      ... misfortune, since the pie begins to stitch the boots ...

                      - this is about you. hi
                      1. gorenina91 Offline
                        gorenina91 (Irina) 16 July 2020 11: 12
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                        - Why are you talking nonsense ...
                        - The Czechoslovak corps was in these echelons in such an unprofitable vulnerable position; that its numbers did not play any role whatsoever ...
                        - An army stretched over hundreds of kilometers ... is a losing army ...
                        - Trains stretched over hundreds of kilometers ...- in a foreign country; in giant forest open spaces; - without any mobile supply and supply bases (without coal and water and technical oils for steam locomotives); without good weapons, ammunition, ammunition and food ... - this is generally a disastrous option ... - And if the cowardly Kolchak did not provide the Czechs with fuel, water, food, ...- and he would personally ... - I didn’t crawl in front of them .., then these Czechoslovakians (then called “Czechoslovakians” in Siberia) would disarm at the first order and precipitate ... and nobody would talk about them at all ...
                        - And the echelons with these "Czechoslovakians" were already stopped by the Bolsheviks near Irkutsk and the "Golden Reserve of Russia" was taken back by the Bolsheviks; and the Czechoslovakians also handed over Kolchak ... - as an already unnecessary little thing ... - Or do you personally think that these “noble Czechoslovakians”, impudent due to Kolchak’s cowardice, suddenly took and voluntarily returned the “Golden Reserve of Russia” ?? ? -Hahah ...
                        - Today they are trying hard to make a hero out of Kolchak ... - but he was like an insignificance in the role of commander of the Siberian Army ... - he remained the same ... - And from the Czechs you personally made right here real supermen ... - When Hitler entered Czechoslovakia; then these supermen, who had a powerful, well-armed army and were at home, and not on trains stretched for hundreds of kilometers in a foreign country ... -so ... ... these "supermen" stood and sniffed and were afraid to utter, seeing the Germans walking along their streets ...- And the same thing, even worse, Kolchak could have done with these "Czech dogs" if he had not been a coward and slobber ...
                      2. 321 Offline
                        321 (321) 16 July 2020 18: 43
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                        Quote: gorenina91
                        - Why are you talking nonsense ...

                        Once again you have mixed up everything - it’s nonsense here that is purely your prerogative, and I repeat once more - at first I at least some unit personally lead, so to speak, supervise them, about PLANNING at least some operations I don’t even remember - it’s without you I’m confused, only after that we’ll talk, and your wet or whatever dreams there are still sorted out - I’m not interested ... negative
                        Especially after you here with such categorical writing about the fact that the Czechs didn’t lose all the gold, believe in it yourself, without me. bully
                        PS Though yours, even not yours, Kolchak is also not too interested in me - so who is there who and where does he exalt and whom he does, I have little interest, but ask those who are lifting him into heroes ... bully hi
                        PPS By the way, your “favorites” were discovered - how many of them already, well, offhand, China, NOVATEK, GAZPROM, and now the Czechs with Kolchak ...
                        "... Will there still be - oh oh oh" (c) laughing bully hi
                      3. andrew42 Offline
                        andrew42 (Andrei) 16 July 2020 19: 14
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                        Admittedly, 321 are right. From the point of view of operational management, Kolchak’s own units were in a much worse position than the white-wings that were “stretched” along the transsib. In this case, this is not the “vulnerability” of the Czechs, but rather the CONCENTRATION along the only strategic highway. Those who sent Janin understood this very well. Moving along the railway, the Czechs had the opportunity to take (requisition, rob) any supplies in any more or less significant settlement in Siberia. Therefore, the Czechs were perfectly equipped, armed, organized and .. concentrated. But Kappel and Wojciechowski were just stamping their feet in the taiga, hopelessly behind the places of decisive events, without cartridges, without shells, practically without horses and guns. If Kolchak were smarter, he would move along with more or less numerous of the retreating units. But he is a "white bone", an important bird! So the "bird" jumped. Semenov and Kolchak had hidden competition. Semenov was a backup option for the interventionists - a sort of Kolchak-2.
                    2. andrew42 Offline
                      andrew42 (Andrei) 16 July 2020 18: 49
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                      I honestly don’t understand why such a heated discussion "Kolchak could disarm the Czechs or could not." What for? What is such a gift of foresight? Kolchak and the Czechs had the same CURATORS. With the help of the Czechs, Kolchak was supposed to crush the Workers 'and Peasants' Army. The Kolchak of the Czechs was "given out" as combat units in a computer toy, but with a limited control right, only in the "Forward to Moscow, to commissars" mode. Complete submission of the Czechs to Kolchak was never planned; at Kolchak, employers were by no means fools. In turn, Kolchak could not mobilize enough forces to fight the Reds. But the fact that Kolchak did not foresee the Czechs' behavior in the event of military failure, did not pay attention to the seizure of logistic supply routes by them - this indicates the distant nature of this character from many sensible things that are not related to direct military craft. If we consider the qualities of historical characters, the same Stalin, having the Czechs at his disposal, would surely negate their any opportunities for independent action. But Kolchak on personal qualities is not Stalin at all (without reference to beliefs).
                    3. gorenina91 Offline
                      gorenina91 (Irina) 16 July 2020 19: 28
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                      But the fact that Kolchak did not foresee the Czechs' behavior in the event of military failure, did not pay attention to the seizure of logistic supply routes by them - this indicates the distant nature of this character from many sensible things that are not related to direct military craft.

                      - Well, I’m just not interested in repeating myself ...
                      - Kolchak ...- the new ruler ... of Siberia, at least ...- and he does not have the fullness of power ... - Some Czechs got into the affairs of his counterintelligence and host everything there ... - Kolchak and feeds , watering and dressing; and they also began to lead them ... - "it’s already quite and too much" ...
                      - Czechs walked around Siberia ... as at home ... - were arrested; hung up; They shot ... - And they didn’t obey Kolchak at all !!! - Kolchak kept them; and they did not obey him !!! - Some Czech commoners commanders commanded the highest Russian officers ... - admirals and generals ... - is that what ??????
                      - What ...- did ANTANTA give the Czechs steam locomotives (sent them from France by air ...- Hahah); and ANTANTA supplied the Czechs with food, warm clothes and everything necessary ...
                      - Yes, Mannerheim at the place of Kolchak simply handed over the Czechs; and then said that “there simply was a misunderstanding that has already been eliminated” ... Mannerheim, a former tsarist general) was appointed commander in chief of the Finnish army, which did not exist, in a poor Finland, ... - And after a short time; when the Bolsheviks in Finland began to take power ...- It is Mannerheim with its army, which is 5000 people. it didn’t count (lumberjacks, woodcutters, hunters, farmers) and was very poorly armed ... -So, this "army" simply spread the 25000 army of townspeople armed much better ... - And then the shootings and gallows started ... - and that's it calmed down ... - And you just do not have to raise the wave that they say ...- they were helped by the Germans and someone else ...- this is as always - the desire to pass off black to red ...- Here, then get caught on the spot of Mannerheim to the Finns slobber Kolchak ... - and no "Germans, French", etc ... - no one would help ...
                      - That's where Kolchak was unfortunately ...- then there wasn’t such a thing ... like Mannerheim ... - That's all ...
                      - And to me "everything" ... - Personally, I could write much more; with excerpts from documents; with exact dates, etc ... - but I'm just tired of it already ...
                      - Yes, why don’t you give me pluses ??? - Or do you put minuses to me ???
                    4. andrew42 Offline
                      andrew42 (Andrei) 21 July 2020 15: 27
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                      In this case, I do not put anything - no pluses or minuses. You overestimate the military capabilities of Kolchak and the army of the West Siberian Directory, overestimate the independence of Kolchak as a political figure, and underestimate that the White Czechs were precisely the "control" that was originally hung on Kolchak's neck. At the same time, your grandiose mistake is to consider control over the Transsib as "dispersal", and not vice versa. But you rested in a dispute with 321, rested against an immutable truth, period. You must be able to rise above the forest and reconsider your position, to which I urge you. As soon as Kolchak agreed to give Trnssib under the "protection" of the White Czechs and Zhanen, everything, point of no return, he is no longer the Master of Siberia, at least until he sits in the capital. Whoever owns Transsib, actually owns, whose military detachments are stationed at stations, railway stations, warehouses and arrows, is the one who owns Siberia.
  • andrew42 Offline
    andrew42 (Andrei) 16 July 2020 17: 52
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    As far as I remember, the Czechs of Kolchak were not surrendered to the Bolsheviks, but to the Socialist Revolutionary-Menshevik Political Center. Otherwise, I support your point of view, Kolchak is not a hero. It may have been such in the WWI, but it approached the role of a political leader very poorly, regardless of beliefs. However, the foreign bourgeoisie had to sculpt from what was at hand.
    1. gorenina91 Offline
      gorenina91 (Irina) 16 July 2020 18: 00
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      Czechs did not surrender Kolchak to the Bolsheviks, but to the Socialist Revolutionary-Menshevik Political Center.

      - Well, here ... - what are you ... -
      - After all, this is not a fundamental moment ... - Who shot Kolchak ??? - The Bolsheviks ... And the Czechs could not but know in whose hands Kolchak would be transferred ... - But by the way ... - they absolutely did not care ...

      The shooting of the Supreme Ruler of Russia, Admiral A.V. Kolchak, was carried out on February 7, 1920 at 5 a.m. at the mouth of the Ushakovka River near its confluence with the Angara River by order of the Irkutsk Military Revolutionary Committee, headed by the Bolsheviks and acting on the personal instructions of V. I . Lenin [

      - Lenin so categorically insisted on that ...
  • Bitter Offline
    Bitter (Gleb) 14 July 2020 23: 02
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    Whose interests were defended by the White Guards ...

    Certainly not popular. yes
  • gorenina91 Offline
    gorenina91 (Irina) 15 July 2020 05: 17
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    Formally, the corps of white whites was part of the French army under the command of General Maurice Janin. Kolchak was completely controlled by the Entente. And who will let Kolchak rock the Czechs?

    - What the hell ???
    - What is the Entente ??? - A Jew makes his way to Russia, General Zhanen ... - And then the Czechs begin to obey him ... - Why is this a fright ???
    - The Bolsheviks did not succeed in subjugating the Czechs; Kolchak didn’t succeed ... - but a visiting Jewess suddenly starts to lead the whole Czechoslovak corps ... - Who supplied the Czechs with food, “wagons”, “steam locomotives”; water, coal and provided them with railways ????????????????????????
    - The Czechs took it all themselves ... - and did not ask anyone .... - They sneezed at all - at Kolchak; to the Entente and ... - all the more so to this pseudo hero Jeanen ... - The Czechs didn’t have ships ... - And then .. - they would have taken the whole “Golden Reserve of Russia” with them (and so they would have taken it it’s a lot of Russian gold) ... - Who would stop them ??? - Americans ??? -Japanese??? - This puffy jean ??? Yes, armed and disciplined Czechs simply did not see point blank all this "army" ..
    - Otherwise, the Entente would quickly “take over the Chekhov’s hands” ...- would make an army of them and send them to the front ...- fight against the Bolsheviks on the battlefields ... - This did not work for the Entente ... - horns !!!!!
    - But Kolchak ...- just ... OBEYED ...- AND OBEYED AT ALL IMMEDIATELY !!!!!!!!! - And the Entente ... and the Czechs, and .... even the Americans ... - They chose this ... loser, phrase-monger and populist in the commanders-in-chief of the gigantic Siberian army ... "White Guards" ... - It would be better Kolchak continued to “twist novels” with Timireva ... - the operetny jester pea ... - climbed into the commanders-in-chief ...
  • Citizen Mѣshkov (Sergey G) 15 July 2020 19: 34
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    The answer is obvious.
    The White Guards defended the interests of Russia, and the Bolsheviks defended the interests of the international.
    Briefly and clearly, without further ado.
    1. andrew42 Offline
      andrew42 (Andrei) 16 July 2020 18: 27
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      Inside both the first and the second - there were still quite different ideas that they protect. The Reds were an order of magnitude more solid. The Reds, in fact, had 2 real subspecies:
      1) haters of Russian statehood and culture,
      2) national liberators "for the red sun of freedom and justice."
      White had a complete “festival” on hand, from ideological monarchists to just “goons”, and a number of foreign puppeteers - “guardians”. The result speaks for itself. The impoverished, destroyed country, which suffered huge losses in WWI, was able to fight off all foreign predators and their proteges from the dead former Russian elite under the Red Banner. The whites did not have “what to offer,” they fought “against”, some with noble intentions, but without constructiveness, and on a foreign leash. This is again to the importance of ideology, as a manual for the development and mobilization of resources - human in the first place.
  • Nikolay Malyugin (Nikolai Malyugin) 15 July 2020 20: 14
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    It would seem that the Civil War put the last point in the victory of the Bolsheviks. Who benefits from exposing this nerve and sprinkling it with salt? The fact that the people won defeats some people. As the "mob", the "famine" defeated the white army, supported by the Entente. If White won, Europe would have to pay for support. And among the officers there was no single goal. Some for the empire with the king, others for the republic. In Europe, they are doing everything to reunite people. Monuments of consent, representatives of culture, without offending anyone, show the horror of a civil war.
    1. andrew42 Offline
      andrew42 (Andrei) 16 July 2020 18: 36
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      Yes, unfortunately, in Russia there is still no worthy monument to the Civil War, as an event. There is no monument to a terrible historical lesson, for the edification of posterity - what happens when the "elite" decays and does not want to lead the people along the path of social development. Reconciliation can only be when learning this lesson.
  • Bakht Offline
    Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 15 July 2020 22: 38
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    As always, the discussion with the White Guards went to the wrong steppe.
    According to the Czechoslovak corps. They could not disarm him. There was no strength. At that time it was the ONLY real power in Russia. What Kolchak could do - this secret is great. Given that Kolchak arrived in Vladivostok only in AUTUMN 1918.
    ----
    The White Guards defended the collapse and collapse of Russia. The only general Denikin fought for "one, indivisible." And did not receive any support from the Entente. And Kolchak and Wrangel and Yudenich agreed to the collapse of Russia and the rejection of its vast territories.
    The Bolsheviks fought for the preservation of Russia. True with its utilitarian goals.
    Cruelty was on all sides. Who is more distinguished - it is better not to stir up. Both sides were good.
  • LeeSeeTsin Offline
    LeeSeeTsin (Stas) Yesterday, 00: 54
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    Annenkov alone was worth something. He also fought with the red, with the people, with the whites. He brought everyone down. Even small children one year old. A real white rat.