Whose interests were defended by the White Guards during the Civil War in Russia

45

The White Guard is a devoted patriot of Russia, who fought with the "red plague", the ruined color of the nation. It is this image for opponents of the Soviet regime that is created in the oligarchic media and is portrayed in films sponsored by the Ministry of Culture. However, historical facts suggest the opposite.

The main goal of the white movement, which proclaimed itself national liberation, was not patriotism and the restoration of the Russian Empire, but the return of power to the bourgeoisie. At the same time, the so-called saviors of the Russian world were directly funded by capitalists from abroad who were afraid of the spread of communism.

For all the time of the civil war in Russia there was not a single candidate for ruler who did not receive support from the imperialists, and all the generals who headed the white movement were supported by foreign interventionists.



In fact, opposing the Bolsheviks, the White Guards simply contributed to the looting of the national wealth of their homeland. At the same time, their main tool was violence, later called the "white terror."

Public executions, the creation of concentration camps, the repression of those suspected of sympathizing with the Bolsheviks, and even the use of chemical weapons. All this was regularly practiced by the white movement together with the armies of foreign occupiers.

In the Far East, repression of civilians has reached “industrial” proportions. Moreover, the lion's share of crimes lies precisely with the “liberators”.

However, the "efforts" of the White Guards only strengthened the resistance to the interventionists and the support of the Bolsheviks. The merciless exploitation of workers in factories caused constant strikes, and the landless peasants raised uprisings.

Ultimately, the white movement was defeated. However, his "adepts" did not leave any hope of returning. So, during the years of World War II, it was from the “whites” who fled from Russia that the fascist command formed punitive corps.

The civil war provoked by the White Guards led to millions of victims, famine and increased poverty. At the same time, modern bourgeois power continues to persistently “whitewash” its ideological predecessors. Indeed, as a hundred years ago, the goal of the current "patriots" of Russia is to rob the workers and preserve the dictatorship of capital.

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    1. -1
      14 July 2020 13: 17
      Whose interests were defended by the White Guards during the Civil War in Russia

      - It’s hard to say anything definite here at all ...
      - Personally, I would somehow understand if the White Guards (mostly it was the former officer corps who swore allegiance to the autocracy) would fight for the restoration of the tsarist rule ... - And then there was a direct betrayal of Russian officers to their oath; almost all of this officer corps "changed their shoes" right on the fly ... - he was simply hired for other things ... against the fight against the Bolsheviks ... - Such was the treasonous nature of the cohort of all this officer's tinsel ... - All the gilding quickly flew off ... - But what about the often mentioned, already utterly hackneyed phrase that, they say, "Russia has only two allies ... the Army and the Navy" ... - These are the "allies" and turned out to be for Russia ... - both the Army and the Navy ... - And there are still songs a'la "... give out the cartridges, Lieutenant Golitsyn; the cornet Obolensky ..." etc ... - That's all. ..- as if about "patriots" who swore allegiance to Tsarist Russia ...
      - But it's one thing to sing "sentimental songs"; and the other - in fact, to turn out to be an ordinary class of sham ... staged theatrical pathetic comedians who want to pose as "knights" ...
      - Well ...- it is clear ...- how this performance ended ...
      - Generally ... - personally, I believe that for Russia the most objective, rational and acceptable form of state existence ... is the "Socialist State" ...
      - Well, and in "second place" (as a fallback) ... - Because. socialism for Russia, as it turned out ... is too much - a modern, progressive and chic form of economic political order ...
      - So ... - in second place for Russia ... for Russia today, such a variant would be quite suitable ... as "Constitutional Monarchy" ...
      - But ...- neither one ... nor the other ...- today is not expected ...
      1. +1
        16 July 2020 18: 12
        I fully support about the socialist state! Without this, Russia, the Russian people, in particular, and the peoples of Russia in general, the future generations, will have no future. Socialism is the path of sound self-preservation for any nation, for any society, but not all nations are capable of daring to set foot on it. Monarchy is not capable of protecting the nation from decay by the cosmopolitan bourgeoisie, without the ideology of the prevalence of a common cause over a private interest - any monarch, even the most "popular" one, will be looped in the system of unstructured management of usurers, will undergo personal decay or be overthrown / displaced / poisoned / shot on the wave of "just" (bourgeois!) anger. It's sickening to talk about the current Russian oligarchy. Well, those very "white" ones came in 1991-1993. They treat us with pseudo - "patriotism" - that is, obedience, stuffing the pockets of oligarchs, and a little discontent - they scare us, we will hand over to foreign bourgeoisie for meat! Such is the unpretentious "ideology" of the modern Russian State.
        1. +2
          18 July 2020 13: 55
          At the same time, modern bourgeois power continues to persistently “whitewash” its ideological predecessors. After all, just like a hundred years ago, the aim of the current "patriots" of Russia is to rob the working people and preserve the dictatorship of capital.

          That's right!
          Even the Mannerheim memorial plaque, posted in St. Petersburg and reverently opened by Sergei Ivanov and Medinsky, is a vivid example of this.

          Memorial plaque to Mannerheim unveiled in St. Petersburg • 16 Jun. 2016 year



          The ex-head of the Kremlin administration, and now the president's special envoy for environmental protection, gave Komsomolskaya Pravda the first interview in his new position.
          Ivanov: Marginals were against the Mannerheim board. Oct 18, 2016

      2. -1
        7 August 2020 10: 28
        The article completely does not correspond to the truth ... The first reason for the white, and not only, resistance, was the dispersal of the All-Russian Constituent Assembly by the Bolsheviks, which in fact closed the election of the new Russian government, and the usurpation of power by the Bolsheviks. Before the Constituent Assembly, appointed and approved by everyone in the summer by the Provisional Government, the Bolsheviks, having dispersed the Provisional Government, had the rights of the same interim rulers, and did not bother anyone who would rule Russia for those few months before the All-Russian elections ... The first slogans of the entire movement, not only white, - for the All-Russian Constituent Assembly and the election of power !!!
        There was never a white movement for the monarchy and there were almost no monarchists in their ranks - this is a lie for the propaganda of the Bolsheviks and others (study history by facts, not by the lies of propaganda, for which the Bolsheviks were famous) ...
        1. +1
          16 September 2020 22: 38
          This is not about the reason, but about the reasons and goals. If you can understand the difference.
          By the way, do you know that Kolchak shot the deputies of the Constituent Assembly?
          And the first slogan issued by Kornilov was - "Take no prisoners, I will answer for everything."
          The Lord soon called him for an answer, but on earth others had to answer. That somehow offended them. And still offends their admirers.
          For some reason, the most ignorant citizens with hopelessly stereotyped brains climb with advice to study history.
          1. 0
            17 September 2020 13: 11
            For some reason, the most ignorant citizens with hopelessly stereotyped brains climb with advice to study history.

            It doesn't seem to you that this applies primarily to you ... Who is Kornilov and whom he represented - a failed dictator who represented only a small part of the military component of Russia, that was quickly defeated by joint efforts ... Russia did not come out of the vicious circle of violence power holding and imposed by various stripes of demagoguery ... The history of Russia is constantly distorted and is not visible in the community of independent historians and their unbiased research ...
    2. +2
      14 July 2020 13: 22
      Trotsky and Sverdlov also distinguished themselves in the wake of the destruction of the Russian people. It was a civil war in which each class fought for its own.
      From the Bolsheviks -

      From the Directive of the Revolutionary Military Council of the 8th Army dated March 1522, 17 No. 1919 “On the quick and decisive destruction of the Cossacks”: “All Cossacks must be completely destroyed, all those who have any relation to anti-Soviet agitation must be destroyed, without stopping before the percentage destruction of the population of the villages, burn the hamlets and villages ... There is no pity ... All units are ordered to go through fire and sword through the area ...

      But the "Whites" were undoubtedly the first to launch the flywheel of the Civil War, contributing to the abdication of the Russian Tsar Nicholas II. They betrayed the autocracy and were then severely punished by Fate for their betrayal. The founder of the White movement, General Alekseev, directly persuaded the tsar to abdicate. Or did he not realize that during the war it wouldn’t just go away, and the country would be on a dangerous line?
      1. +2
        16 July 2020 17: 58
        Class struggle is understandable. Only Trotsky and Sverdlov are not a class, they are simply haters of the Russian state in any form. And not any proletarians. In essence, they are political vultures and hidden Zionists who have ridden a deep tsunami of popular indignation. For the Russian peasant and worker, such figures are the "enemy of the enemy", the enemy of the national Russian bourgeoisie.
    3. +3
      14 July 2020 15: 35
      The White Guards and the interventionists gave the Bolsheviks a good head start in the brutality of terror. This is a concentration camp (not the only one) in Mudyug, flooded barges with hundreds of people in Vladivostok. In the south of Russia, whites were distinguished by sophistication, such as taking a large barrel (wooden), hammering many, many nails (so that they stuck out well from inside), stuffing the captured Bolshevik there, hammering the lid and rolling the barrel from a high mountain.
      White's victory would have turned into such a battle that a real Civil War would have seemed like children's games in the sandbox. Therefore, as a unity and really authoritative and capable leaders among them were not.
      Therefore, in the process of the Bolsheviks coming to power, the West did not support the Whites, but the Bolsheviks. White was kept just so that the starting positions of the Bolsheviks would not be too strong.
      In 1918, Yudenich did not nearly dream of the support that Poland later provided. Airplanes were sent to him (really) (remarkable at that time), but they forgot to equip with a propeller, guns of one caliber — shells of another, etc. In short, more like sabotage.
      And the Bolsheviks were originally a project of the West. They had to create a centralized power, and the West would intercept this power. These are variants of barracks communism and forced labor in the "labor camps" of Trotsky and Bukharin.
      When Lenin, Stalin and their team set a course for the restoration of the empire, Lenin was "criticized" at the Michelson plant, and then they began to simply persecute him on the sly. But this did not help, and it was not possible to organize a military intervention, for economic reasons and a reluctance to fight among the peoples who had just gone through WWI. With the fact that the Bolsheviks inside the country became stronger and stronger.
      So, the whites themselves did not know what they were fighting for. By decree "On Land" Lenin immediately knocked out the support of the peasantry from them (at that time - the overwhelming majority of the population). They did not have effective support from the West.
      Reflected in the literature ("Adjutant of His Excellency", "Quiet Don", etc.), the supply of weapons and military equipment, including tanks and aircraft, occurred too late and did not play a role against the background of the strengthening of the Red Army.
      By the way, the escalation of the Civil War was launched by Trotsky and the white whispers. Trotsky gave the command to disarm the Whites, who were a well-armed and organized significant force, occupying key positions on the Trans-Siberian Railway. The squirrels naturally did not like this.
      Until the spring of 1918, Lenin believed (and wrote about this) that the civil war was basically over.
      1. 0
        9 August 2020 09: 47
        The West mainly tried to unleash a civil war and thus fundamentally weaken Russia ... The Bolsheviks were more a project of Jewish globalists, used in the need to destroy monarchies, as obstacles on their way to world domination, which today, in fact, we observe ... They financed the Bolsheviks with the support of a close-knit peaceful Jewry, having gathered in Russia from all over the world, most of the "commissars" are Jews, starting from the "sealed wagons", Trotsky's steamer and more ... The Leninist government is 83% Jews, and so on ... Correctly identified, that the white movement lost because of the lack of intelligible programs, like the Bolsheviks put forward slogans that attracted the workers of Russia (although later they did everything the other way around) .. At the last stage, the Whites put forward landmarks and other landmarks, but it was already too late ... only as about Bolshevik propaganda, here the historical notes of the white movement for the citizens of Russia are unknown (with the exception of a few atik of the Bolsheviks, as was General Denikin, - from peasants) ... In Russia there is no neutral research on the history of Russia of the 20th century, or about the Bolsheviks, or vice versa, anti-Bolsheviks ... Today everything is becoming a thing of the past and becomes irrelevant, changes are taking place new century ...
    4. -1
      14 July 2020 17: 09
      Until the spring of 1918, Lenin believed (and wrote about this) that the civil war was basically over.

      - Lenin never wrote such nonsense ... - Lenin wrote on May 29! 918 to the Revolutionary Military Council of the Eastern Front:

      "If we do not conquer the Urals before winter, then I consider the death of the revolution inevitable."

      - But the fact that

      Trotsky gave the command to disarm the Whites, who were a well-armed and organized significant force, occupying key positions on the Trans-Siberian Railway.

      - That was done so clumsyly that it turned the Czechs against the Bolsheviks ...- They could not quietly disband the Czechoslovak corps and disarm it ... - And to create separate detachments of the Red Army from it ...- They would be great then to the Bolsheviks ...
      - And even more with these Czechs, then the slobber Kolchak "got bogged down" ... - The Czechs captured trains and stretched for hundreds of kilometers along the railway ...; and even the "Golden Reserve" of the Republic of Ingushetia was captured ... - They had to be neutralized immediately ... - On these "extended paths" the Czechs were very vulnerable; and only Kolchak's lack of will allowed them to do in our Siberia whatever they liked ...
      - The Czechs literally sat on Kolchak’s head and ruled with might and main ... - Somehow, the Czechs suddenly began to command Kolchak’s counterintelligence and could arrest any Kolchak officer ... - this is the number !!! - Czech patrols roamed Omsk and carried out arrests and executions ... - And then the Czechs seized Kolchak as a cover and just handed it over to the Bolsheviks near Irkutsk ... - and left Russia completely unpunished; and take Russian gold with you ...
      - Yes, and Denikin on the Southern Front ... - also could not organize anything (except for the stupid hysterical "Ice Campaign") - only there was a constant bickering with the Don army ...
      - These are such mediocre White Guard fighters who tried to defeat the inept Bolsheviks ...
      - Here I personally ... - I just can not stand Trotsky; but I think that his actions to decoss the Cossacks were absolutely correct ... - let the patriots cast me down with minuses ... - At any moment, the Cossacks could make a bloody mess and a fairly large-scale ... - In The Quiet Don, Sholokhov clearly wrote it ... - And who would then constantly "babysit" with them ... and watched them vigilantly and wondered ... - what is on their minds ...
      1. 0
        14 July 2020 19: 39
        - Lenin never wrote such nonsense ...

        Filter the bazaar. Galimatia is 80% of what you write.
        Without delving into the wilds:

        But, in the main, the task of suppressing the resistance of the exploiters was already solved in the period from October 25, 1917 to (approximately) February 1918, or before the surrender of Bogaevsky.
        Now the third task is being put forward, as the next and making up the uniqueness of the moment being experienced, is the third task - to organize the management of Russia. Of course, this task was set and solved by us on the very same day after October 25, 1917, but so far, while the resistance of the exploiters still took the form of an open civil war, until now the task of control could not become the main, central one.
        Now she has become one.
        ...

        This article "The Immediate Tasks of the Soviet Power", in the manuscript was called "Theses on the Tasks of the Soviet Power at the Present Moment." Lenin's “theses” were discussed at a meeting of the Party Central Committee on April 26, 1918. The Central Committee unanimously approved them and decided to publish them as an article in Pravda and Izvestia of the All-Russian Central Executive Committee, as well as publish them as a separate brochure.

        In a speech at the Moscow Soviet of Workers, Peasants, and Red Army Deputies on April 23, 1918, Lenin said:
        "It's safe to say that the civil war is largely over."

        Further also a continuous sur:

        - They could not quietly disband the Czechoslovak corps and disarm it ... - And to create separate detachments of the Red Army from it ...

        Why do you consider everyone but yourself fools? This corps reached 50 thousand and was the most combat-ready armed force on the territory of Soviet Russia. No one, in their right mind, will surrender their weapons in the context of the ongoing civil war. People were sent through Russia, Vladivostok, France home, to Czechoslovakia and were not going to fight, especially in a foreign civil war. 200 people fell on the Bolshevik agitation. (including J. Hasek) especially stubborn.

        only Kolchak’s lack of will allowed them to do everything in Siberia that they please ...
        - The Czechs literally sat on Kolchak’s head ...

        Formally, the corps of white whites was part of the French army under the command of General Maurice Janin. Kolchak was completely controlled by the Entente. And who will let Kolchak rock the Czechs?

        - The Czechs captured the trains and stretched for hundreds of kilometers along the railway ...

        Czechs returned to their homeland through Vladivostok in agreement with the Soviet government.
        I’ll just keep silent about the Cossacks ...
        1. -1
          15 July 2020 06: 33
          - Personally, I have nothing against the "Kazakh diaspora" (as they say - "nothing personal") ... - But to oppose it "numerically" ... - I personally ... naturally I cannot ...
          - Well, then follows ... - the usual "Pupkin's Arithmetic" ...
          1. 0
            15 July 2020 09: 35
            In essence, what is there?
            In the meantime, apart from the idea of ​​disarming the Czechs "quietly", nothing came from you, well, I WOULD like to know the details from you - how do you think it is better to do this? hi
            1. -1
              15 July 2020 10: 30
              In each echelon, leave for their own protection an armed company of 168 people, including non-commissioned officers, and one machine gun, for each rifle 300, for a machine gun 1200 charges. All other rifles and machine guns, all guns should be handed over to the Russian government in the hands of a special commission in Penza, consisting of three representatives of the Czechoslovak army and three representatives of the Soviet government ...

              - The Czechs were not so well armed ...; to fight, but to "scare", and that was enough ...

              - As I personally would have done (disarming the Czechs) ... ... - at least in "Kolchak's place" ...
              - Firstly ... - personally, I would immediately warn the command of the Czech corps; that ... that ... that in the event of a failure to surrender weapons, a massive explosion of trains would be carried out on all railway tracks along which the trains of the Czechs were moving ... - And for clarity, several trains would "derail" ... - these trains would have been blown up while moving ... on the railroad ...
              - Most likely, this would be enough to start the mass surrender of weapons by the Czechs ... - This whole notorious Czechoslovak corps would cease to exist ...
              - Secondly ..: the Czechs were sitting in carriages (these are made of boards) and which were "not armored trains" ... - Everything was shot through ... - How many such echelon is "defended" by an armed company, which is not so a lot of ammunition ???
              - And where would the Czechs go from their wagons ??? - The roads are littered with logs ... whatever ... - the train is in the field ... or in the forest, in the taiga ... - Where should the Czechs go ??? - There are no cartridges; no food ... - Bayonets, or something, would defend ???
              - By the way ... - The Don Army quickly ran out of ammunition and there was absolutely nothing for it to shoot ... - Well, it was the Cossacks ...- with sabers, on horses ...- they could move quickly ... - And the Cossacks were at home ...- in their Don steppes ...
              - And where were the Czechs ??? - Over thousands of kilometers from their homeland in the vast expanses of Siberia ...
              - And the weak "would-be commander" Kolchak did not have enough will; to cope with the Czechoslovak corps stretched for hundreds of kilometers !!!
              - Kolchak, who had a whole army:

              400 thousand people, 211 guns, 1,3 thousand machine guns, 12 armored vehicles, 5 armored trains, 15 aircraft.

              - It had to be such a mediocre commander ... - Kolchak could not even disarm the Czechs ... - Hahah ..
              - It's even ...- just not really talking ...
              1. 0
                15 July 2020 11: 33
                Quote: gorenina91
                In each echelon, leave for their own protection an armed company of 168 people, including non-commissioned officers, and one machine gun, for each rifle 300, for a machine gun 1200 charges. All other rifles and machine guns, all guns should be handed over to the Russian government in the hands of a special commission in Penza, consisting of three representatives of the Czechoslovak army and three representatives of the Soviet government ...

                - The Czechs were not so well armed ...; to fight, but to "scare", and that was enough ...

                - As I personally would have done (disarming the Czechs) ... ... - at least in "Kolchak's place" ...
                - Firstly ... - personally, I would immediately warn the command of the Czech corps; that ... that ... that in the event of a failure to surrender weapons, a massive explosion of trains would be carried out on all railway tracks along which the trains of the Czechs were moving ... - And for clarity, several trains would "derail" ... - these trains would have been blown up while moving ... on the railroad ...
                - Most likely, this would be enough to start the mass surrender of weapons by the Czechs ... - This whole notorious Czechoslovak corps would cease to exist ...
                - Secondly ..: the Czechs were sitting in carriages (these are made of boards) and which were "not armored trains" ... - Everything was shot through ... - How many such echelon is "defended" by an armed company, which is not so a lot of ammunition ???
                - And where would the Czechs go from their wagons ??? - The roads are littered with logs ... whatever ... - the train is in the field ... or in the forest, in the taiga ... - Where should the Czechs go ??? - There are no cartridges; no food ... - Bayonets, or something, would defend ???

                Everything is approximately as expected - there is an idea, but the ways of its implementation - well, I will write softly - are close to fantasy.
                What is the armament of the Czechs, what is the fantasy of blocking and destroying them? At that time, NOBODY WOULD HAVE TO GIVE A WEAPON, you have a rifle - you can do a lot of things, you don’t have weapons - you are either a candidate for the dead or very close to it, so what about disarmament - past initially ...
                And the mention of the strength of Kolchak’s troops — well, all of them simply had nothing to do but block and disarm the Czechs, the amount of forces required for this, and we don’t even remember ...
                I don’t remember about the technique you’ve outlined either - with one train it’s easy, but with more power it won’t work, there’s no point in setting forth anymore, you still won’t understand, alas ...
                1. -2
                  15 July 2020 12: 26
                  What is the armament of the Czechs, that the options for blocking and destroying them are fantastic

                  - What other fiction ... - Everything is set out clearly and clearly and "according to the laws of the military revolutionary time" ... - This is not a war of the Indians on the American prairies ... - This is armed Siberia ... - The rails were filled up with both parties; and one or two three-inch guns (guns) were dragged into this place in advance and into this stopped train with the rebellious Czechs ... they drove several shells from 150-200 meters (even the rails do not need to be blown up) ... - several cars were smashed to pieces .. - And so - with several echelons ... - this was the end of the whole thing ... The Czechs would surrender, they would not go anywhere ... - What could they do ... - no food; no coal or water for steam locomotives ... They would shoot back to the last bullet; and then, who survived ... - they would have gone to the taiga ... - this is fantastic ... - Yes, it's not even ... - Hahah ... - - it's not even funny ...

                  with one train it’s easy, but with more power

                  - I repeat ... - Where were the Czechs to get coal and water for steam locomotives ??? - It was just one echelon that could break through ... - And all the other echelons ... - would simply stand up and stand as a huge solid "caterpillar"; with a distance from echelon to echelon of several kilometers ... - and how long would they stand like that ??? - No food, no drinking water ... - to hunt in the forest, or what ... - go ??? - And the Siberian winter, and the cold ???
                  - It's just that Kolchak's cowardice and his desire to please absolutely everyone played the main role here ... - It was a fatal mistake ... - to choose a "supreme commander-in-chief" ... - such a cowardly mediocrity ... - I also have a "tsarist admiral". .. - But he had such a powerful army ... - Be someone else in his place ... - at least the former tsarist general K. Mannerheim (who literally created the armed forces of Finland from scratch) ... - That is Mannerheim with such a powerful army I would simply move mountains; and I would have dealt with the Czechs (their corps) instantly ... - they would not even have time to utter a word ...
                  - Yes, even Denikin ...- be he in the place of Kolchak ...
                  1. -1
                    15 July 2020 19: 55
                    Quote: gorenina91
                    ... This is armed Siberia ... - Ridged the rails with logs on either side; and one or two three-inch guns were pulled into this place in advance and into this stopped train with rebel Czechs ... several shells were planted from 150-200 meters (even the rails do not need to be blown up) ...- they carried several cars into pieces. - And so - with several echelons ...- this was the end of it ... the Czechs would give up, would not have disappeared ...

                    It is clear that further discussion with you does not make sense - well, at least a light idea of ​​the basics of at least military affairs before writing such comments must be had - that 50 thousand snouts will just throw everything and will sit exactly, of course, of course, and will wait until they shoot the first echelon, then the second and further down the list ... and we "kind of believe" you. laughing bully hi
                    1. 0
                      16 July 2020 05: 20
                      It is clear that further discussion with you does not make sense - well, at least a light idea of ​​the basics of at least military affairs before writing such comments must be had - that 50 thousand snouts will just throw everything and will sit exactly, of course, of course, and will wait until they shoot the first echelon, then the second and further down the list ... and we "kind of believe" you.

                      - It seems that you really do not understand anything in military affairs ...
                      - The locomotives were simply put out of action ... the rails were dismantled in many places (20-30 meters) on the paths between the cities and (carried away from the paths into the forests) ...... - this is thousands of kilometers ... - And that’s it ... - The entire Czech corps would go on foot across Siberia to Daln. East ... - Good luck ... - The Siberian men would have passed them all in the forests and taiga ... - Yes, and in the bitter frosts - in the taiga just grace !!! - Maybe one of them would have reached ... - Hahah ...
                      - From Omsk to Irkutsk 2500 km ... - and that’s all the taiga, the taiga ... - And how much to Omsk from Russian Europe ??? - And to Daln. East how much the general way will be ???
                      - If you are playing the fool by giving your "arguments"; then continue with someone else ...
                      1. -1
                        16 July 2020 08: 11
                        Quote: gorenina91
                        ... - It seems that you really do not understand anything about military affairs ... - If you are playing the fool, bringing your "arguments"; then continue with someone else ...

                        Quote: gorenina91
                        ... - The locomotives were simply incapacitated ... the rails were dismantled in many places (20-30 meters each) on the paths between the cities and (carried away from the paths to the forests) ...

                        Of course, of course, carried away and thrown away, right? And far gone? And they still tied up the knot, or do you propose to take them with you who have taken it with you? laughing

                        Quote: gorenina91
                        ... - The entire Czech corps would go on foot across Siberia to Daln. East ... - Good luck ... - The Siberian men would have passed them all in the forests and taiga ...

                        They were traveling on the last steam locomotives in Russia, and they were put out of action and that’s all - all the locomotives ended - and the men organized themselves so abruptly into the first anti-Czech army, in the amount of one hundred thousand - one hundred and fifty, right? bully

                        Quote: gorenina91
                        ... - Yes, and in the bitter frosts - in the taiga just grace !!! - Maybe one of them would have reached ...

                        Well, of course, they all rode in swimming trunks, and well, there was nothing and nobody around for miles of miles - continue to invent your fairy tales further. bully

                        Quote: gorenina91
                        ... - From Omsk to Irkutsk 2500 km ... - and all the taiga, taiga ... And to Omsk from Russian Europe how much ??? - And to Daln. East, how much will the total path be ??? ...

                        And only on foot, well, that's all-all already disabled? - poison further negative

                        Quote: gorenina91
                        … - If you are playing the fool by giving your "arguments"; then continue with someone else ...

                        So far, I see here an attempt by a senior lieutenant, possibly a reserve, who did not command anyone or anything (from the units, not to mention the development of plans for at least some operations) to try to pretend that it’s not clear that, like the developer of the operation, well, at least operational scale ... hi
                        The result of this attempt, as expected - no, so, floodlights ... bully
                        PS And continue to still believe that there was only one company and there were strictly three hundred rounds on the rifle, and not one more, and no one ever tried to break these agreements ...

                        ... misfortune, since the pie begins to stitch the boots ...

                        - this is about you. hi
                        1. 0
                          16 July 2020 11: 12
                          - Why are you talking nonsense ...
                          - The Czechoslovak corps was in these echelons in such an unprofitable vulnerable position; that its numbers did not play any role whatsoever ...
                          - An army stretched over hundreds of kilometers ... is a losing army ...
                          - Trains stretched for hundreds of kilometers ... - in a foreign country; in the gigantic forest spaces; - without any mobile supply and support bases (without coal and water and technical oils for steam locomotives); without good weapons, cartridges, ammunition and food ... - this is generally a disastrous option ... - And if the cowardly Kolchak did not provide the Czechoslovakians with fuel, water, and food ... - and he would personally ... - did not crawl in front of them on all fours .., then these Czechoslovakians (they were then called "Czech dogs" in Siberia) on the first order would have disarmed and would have precipitated ... and no one would have spoken about them at all ...
                          - And the trains with these "Czech dogs" were later stopped by the Bolsheviks near Irkutsk and the "Golden Reserve of Russia" was taken back by the Bolsheviks; and the "czech dogs" also handed over Kolchak ... - as an already unnecessary used thing ... - Or do you personally think that these "noble czech dogs", impudent because of Kolchak's cowardice, suddenly took and voluntarily returned the "Golden Reserve of Russia" ?? ? -Hahah ...
                          - Today they are trying hard to make a hero out of Kolchak ... - but he was like a nonentity in the role of the commander of the Siberian Army ... - so he remained ... - And from the Czechs you personally made real supermen here ... - When Hitler entered Czechoslovakia; then these supermen, who possessed a powerful, well-armed army and were at home, and not on trains stretched for hundreds of kilometers in a foreign country ... -so ...- these "supermen" stood and sniffed and were afraid to utter a word, seeing how the Germans walk through their streets ... - And the same thing, even worse could have done with these "Czech dogs" and Kolchak, if he had not been a coward and slobber ...
                        2. -1
                          16 July 2020 18: 43
                          Quote: gorenina91
                          - Why are you talking nonsense ...

                          Once again you have mixed up everything - it’s nonsense here that is purely your prerogative, and I repeat once more - at first I at least some unit personally lead, so to speak, supervise them, about PLANNING at least some operations I don’t even remember - it’s without you I’m confused, only after that we’ll talk, and your wet or whatever dreams there are still sorted out - I’m not interested ... negative
                          Especially after you here with such categorical writing about the fact that the Czechs didn’t lose all the gold, believe in it yourself, without me. bully
                          PS Though yours, even not yours, Kolchak is also not too interested in me - so who is there who and where does he exalt and whom he does, I have little interest, but ask those who are lifting him into heroes ... bully hi
                          PPS By the way, your "favorites" were also discovered - how many of them are already, well, offhand, China, NOVATEK, GAZPROM, now also the Czechs with Kolchak ...
                          "... Or else there will be - oh oh oh" (c) laughing bully hi
                        3. +1
                          16 July 2020 19: 14
                          Admittedly, 321 is right. From the point of view of operational management, Kolchak's own units were in a much worse position than the White Czechs "stretched" along the Trans-Siberian Railway. In this case, it is not at all "vulnerability" of the Czechs, but on the contrary CONCENTRATION along the only strategic highway. Those who sent Janin understood this perfectly. Moving along the railway, the Czechs had the opportunity to take (requisition, rob) any supplies in any more or less significant settlement in Siberia. Therefore, the Czechs were well equipped, armed, organized and ... focused. But Kappel and Voitsekhovsky were just stomping their feet through the taiga, hopelessly behind the places of decisive events, without cartridges, without shells, practically without horses and guns. Kolchak would have been smarter, he would have moved along with more or less numerous of the retreating units. But he is "white bone", an important bird! So the "bird" has jumped. Semenov and Kolchak had hidden competition. Semenov was a backup option for the interventionists - a sort of "Kolchak-2".
                        4. 0
                          16 July 2020 18: 49
                          I honestly don't understand why such a heated discussion "Could Kolchak disarm the Czechs or he could not." What for? What is this foresight based on? Kolchak and the Czechs had the same CURATORS. With the help of the Czechs, Kolchak had to suppress the Workers 'and Peasants' Army. To Kolchak, the Czechs were "issued" as combat units in a computer toy, but with limited control rights, only in the "Forward to Moscow, to the commissars" mode. The complete subordination of the Czechs to Kolchak was never planned; Kolchak's employers were by no means stupid. In turn, Kolchak could not mobilize enough forces to fight the Reds. But the fact that Kolchak did not foresee the behavior of the Czechs in the event of a military failure, did not pay attention to the seizure of logistic supply routes by them, this indicates that this character is far from many sensible things that are not related to direct military craft. If we consider the qualities of historical characters, the same Stalin, having the Czechs at his disposal, would certainly nullify any possibility of independent action. But Kolchak, in terms of personal qualities, is not Stalin at all (without reference to convictions).
                        5. +1
                          16 July 2020 19: 28
                          But the fact that Kolchak did not foresee the Czechs' behavior in the event of military failure, did not pay attention to the seizure of logistic supply routes by them - this indicates the distant nature of this character from many sensible things that are not related to direct military craft.

                          - Well, I’m just not interested in repeating myself ...
                          - Kolchak ... - the new ruler ... of Siberia, at least ... - but he does not have full power ... - Some Czechs got into the affairs of his counterintelligence and run there with might and main ... - Kolchak and feeds , gives water and clothes; and they also began to lead him ... - "this is already completely and too much" ...
                          - Czechs walked around Siberia ... as at home ... - were arrested; hung up; They shot ... - And they didn’t obey Kolchak at all !!! - Kolchak kept them; and they did not obey him !!! - Some Czech commoners commanders commanded the highest Russian officers ... - admirals and generals ... - is that what ??????
                          - What ...- did ANTANTA give the Czechs steam locomotives (sent them from France by air ...- Hahah); and ANTANTA supplied the Czechs with food, warm clothes and everything necessary ...
                          - Yes, Mannerheim in place of Kolchak simply overpowered the Czechs; and then he said that "a misunderstanding just happened, which has already been eliminated" ... Mannerheim - a former tsarist general) in impoverished Finland was appointed commander-in-chief of the Finnish army, which did not exist ... - And after a short time; when the Bolsheviks in Finland began to take power ... - It was Mannerheim with his army, which and 5000 people. did not count (lumberjacks, resin workers, hunters, farmers) and was very poorly armed ... -So this "army" simply smashed the 25000 army of townspeople armed much better ... -And then the executions and the gallows began ... -and that's it calmed down ... - And you don't just need to raise a wave, that they say ... - the Germans and someone else helped them ... - it's as always - the desire to pass black for red ... - Then get caught in the place of Mannerheim to the Finns slobber Kolchak ... - and no "Germans, French", etc ... - no one would help ...
                          - That's where Kolchak was unfortunately ...- then there wasn’t such a thing ... like Mannerheim ... - That's all ...
                          - And "everything" to me ... - Personally, I could write in much more detail; with excerpts from documents; with exact dates, etc ... - but I'm just tired of it ...
                          - Yes, why don’t you give me pluses ??? - Or do you put minuses to me ???
                        6. +2
                          21 July 2020 15: 27
                          In this case, I do not put anything - no pluses or minuses. You overestimate the military capabilities of Kolchak and the army of the "West Siberian Directory", overestimate the independence of Kolchak as a political figure, and underestimate that the White Czechs were precisely the "control" that was originally hung on Kolchak's neck. At the same time, your grandiose mistake is to consider control over the Transsib as "dispersal", and not vice versa. But you rested in a dispute with 321, rested against an immutable truth, period. You must be able to rise above the forest and reconsider your position, to which I urge you. As soon as Kolchak agreed to give Trnssib under the "protection" of the White Czechs and Zhanen, everything, point of no return, he is no longer the Master of Siberia, at least until he sits in the capital. Whoever owns Transsib, actually owns, whose military detachments are stationed at stations, railway stations, warehouses and arrows, is the one who owns Siberia.
      2. -1
        16 July 2020 17: 52
        As far as I remember, the Czechs of Kolchak were not surrendered to the Bolsheviks, but to the Socialist Revolutionary-Menshevik Political Center. Otherwise, I support your point of view, Kolchak is not a hero. It may have been such in the WWI, but it approached the role of a political leader very poorly, regardless of beliefs. However, the foreign bourgeoisie had to sculpt from what was at hand.
        1. -1
          16 July 2020 18: 00
          Czechs did not surrender Kolchak to the Bolsheviks, but to the Socialist Revolutionary-Menshevik Political Center.

          - Well, here ... - what are you ... -
          - After all, this is not a fundamental moment ... - Who shot Kolchak ??? - The Bolsheviks ... And the Czechs could not but know in whose hands Kolchak would be transferred ... - But by the way ... - they absolutely did not care ...

          The shooting of the Supreme Ruler of Russia, Admiral A.V. Kolchak, was carried out on February 7, 1920 at 5 a.m. at the mouth of the Ushakovka River near its confluence with the Angara River by order of the Irkutsk Military Revolutionary Committee, headed by the Bolsheviks and acting on the personal instructions of V. I . Lenin [

          - Lenin so categorically insisted on that ...
    5. 0
      14 July 2020 23: 02
      Whose interests were defended by the White Guards ...

      Certainly not popular. Yes
    6. -1
      15 July 2020 05: 17
      Formally, the corps of white whites was part of the French army under the command of General Maurice Janin. Kolchak was completely controlled by the Entente. And who will let Kolchak rock the Czechs?

      - What the hell ???
      - What is the Entente ??? - A Jew makes his way to Russia, General Zhanen ... - And then the Czechs begin to obey him ... - Why is this a fright ???
      - The Bolsheviks did not succeed in subjugating the Czechs; Kolchak did not succeed ... - but a visiting Jew suddenly begins to lead an entire Czechoslovak corps ... - Who supplied the Czechs with food, "wagons", "steam locomotives"; water, coal and provided them with railroad tracks ???????????????????????
      - The Czechs took it all by themselves ... - and did not ask anyone .... - They sneezed at everyone - at Kolchak; to the Entente and ... - all the more so to this pseudo hero Zhanen ... - The Czechs did not have ships ... - Otherwise .. - they would also take the entire "Golden Reserve of Russia" with them (and so they took with a lot of Russian gold) .... - Who would have prevented them ??? - Americana ??? -Japanese??? - This bloated Janin ??? Yes, the armed and disciplined Czechs simply did not see all this "army" at close range ..
      - Otherwise, the Entente would quickly "get their hands on the Czechs" ... - would have amassed a whole army out of them and sent them to the front ... - to fight against the Bolsheviks on the battlefields ... - The Entente did not succeed ... - pipes !!!!!
      - But Kolchak ... - just ... OBEYED ... - AND OBEYED ALL AT ONCE !!!!!!!!! - And the Entente ... and the Czechs, and .... even the Americans ... - They chose this one ... -poser, phrase-monger and populist to the commander-in-chief of the giant Siberian army ... "White Guards" ... - It would be better Kolchak continued to "twist novels" with Timireva ... - an operetta jester of pea ... - got into the commander-in-chief ...
    7. -1
      15 July 2020 19: 34
      The answer is obvious.
      The White Guards defended the interests of Russia, and the Bolsheviks defended the interests of the international.
      Briefly and clearly, without further ado.
      1. +1
        16 July 2020 18: 27
        Inside both the first and the second - there were still quite different ideas that they protect. The Reds were an order of magnitude more solid. The Reds, in fact, had 2 real subspecies:
        1) haters of Russian statehood and culture,
        2) people's liberators "for the red sun of freedom and justice."
        The whites had a complete "festival" in their hands, from ideological monarchists to simply "goons", and a number of foreign puppeteers - "guardians". The result speaks for itself. An impoverished, devastated country that suffered huge losses in WWI was able to fight off all foreign predators and their henchmen from the dead former Russian elite under the Red Banner. Whites did not have "anything to offer", they fought "against", some with noble intentions, but without constructiveness, and on a foreign leash. This is again to the importance of ideology as a manual for the development and mobilization of resources - human resources in the first place.
    8. +1
      15 July 2020 20: 14
      It would seem that the civil war put the last point in the victory of the Bolsheviks. Who benefits from exposing this nerve and sprinkling it with salt? Some people are haunted by the fact that the people won. As the "rabble", "hicks" overcame the white army, supported by the Entente. If White won, Europe would have to pay for support. And among the officers there was no single goal. Some for an empire with a tsar, others for a republic. In Europe, everything is done in order to reunite people. Monuments of consent, representatives of culture, without offending anyone, show the horror of the civil war.
      1. +1
        16 July 2020 18: 36
        Yes, unfortunately, in Russia there is still no worthy monument to the Civil War as an event. There is no monument to a terrible historical lesson, for the edification of descendants - what happens when the "elite" is rotting and does not want to lead the people along the path of social development. Reconciliation can only be by learning this lesson.
    9. +2
      15 July 2020 22: 38
      As always, the discussion with the White Guards went to the wrong steppe.
      According to the Czechoslovak corps. They could not disarm him. There was no strength. At that time it was the ONLY real power in Russia. What Kolchak could do - this secret is great. Given that Kolchak arrived in Vladivostok only in AUTUMN 1918.
      ----
      The White Guards defended the disintegration and collapse of Russia. The only general Denikin fought for "one, indivisible". And did not receive any support from the Entente. And Kolchak and Wrangel and Yudenich agreed to the collapse of Russia and the seizure of vast territories from it.
      The Bolsheviks fought for the preservation of Russia. True with its utilitarian goals.
      Cruelty was on all sides. Who is more distinguished - it is better not to stir up. Both sides were good.
      1. -2
        10 August 2020 10: 48
        Reply to

        The Bolsheviks fought to preserve Russia ...

        The Bolsheviks fought for the world revolution and their power over the world. "Russia is only brushwood for a global conflagration," Trotsky said. According to the Brest-Litovsk Peace, the Bolsheviks gave up the best part of Russia. - Ukraine with the Crimea, Belarus, the Baltic states, etc., they promised to pay in addition 200 tons in gold, they paid only 90 tons, thanks to the Entente for saving, defeating Germany, otherwise the Germans ruled Ukraine, Belarus, the Baltic states FOREVER under an agreement with the Bolsheviks. It's time to think, not to chew on the propaganda of the CPSU ...
    10. +1
      7 August 2020 00: 54
      Annenkov alone was worth something. He also fought with the red, with the people, with the whites. He brought everyone down. Even small children one year old. A real white rat.
      1. 0
        9 August 2020 10: 00
        The red, more terrible terror - whole strata, peoples, - the Cossacks, the nobility, military personnel, the ministers of Orthodoxy, the rich bourgeois, etc. were exterminated on a class basis, this echoes the Nazis, which is based on race ... Terror was carried out mainly by Bolshevik leaders and active representatives of Jewish origin with the help of foreign mercenaries: Latvians, Hungarians (from prisoners). Chinese, various sectarians of Russia ... You really study history from independent sources ...
    11. -1
      9 August 2020 09: 32
      The backfill question - who sponsored the Bolsheviks?
      1. 0
        9 August 2020 14: 44
        The Bolsheviks were sponsored through Parvus and the Swedish banks by the German General Staff with millions of gold Reichsmarks, through Trotsky, bank houses (Shift, etc.) in dollars. For example, in the autumn of 1917, Bolshevik envoys (most of them Jews) came to the Odessa newspaper editors with a portfolio of dollars and bought the entire newspaper, for tomorrow all Odessa newspapers printed only profitable materials for the Bolsheviks ... Why such a naive question ...
        1. -1
          9 August 2020 16: 26
          The question is not naive.
    12. -1
      24 August 2020 15: 53
      1. It was the Bolsheviks who were not Russian patriots. You won't see the word "Russia" on their banners. The early Bolsheviks were, in fact, Russophobes. Only somewhere in the late 30s the situation changed slightly. But in general, communism has little in common with the "Russian world".
      2. The Entente helped the Whites because we were allies in the war and because the West was against the world revolution.
      3. And nothing that the Bolsheviks themselves begged and received help from the Entente from the age of 41 ....))))
    13. +1
      1 September 2020 17: 51
      Who directed the rout of the interventionists and White Guards in civilian life?
      Here are the names of the highest military command of the Red Army of the USSR of the period
      civil war and intervention:
      - His Excellency Lieutenant General of the Imperial Army, hereditary nobleman Mikhail Dmitrievich Bonch-Bruevich ..
      - his honor colonel of the imperial army Sergei Sergeevich Kamenev ...
      - His Excellency Major General of the Imperial Army Pavel Pavlovich Lebedev, a hereditary nobleman ..
      - His Excellency Alexander Alexandrovich Samoilov - Major General of the Imperial Army, a hereditary nobleman ..
      - His Excellency Vasily Mikhailovich Altfater hereditary nobleman Rear Admiral of the Imperial Navy ..
      - His Excellency Evgeny Andreevich Behrens - hereditary nobleman Rear Admiral of the Imperial Navy ..
      - His Excellency Alexander Vasilyevich Nemitz, a hereditary nobleman Rear Admiral of the Imperial Navy ..
      The naval general staff of the Russian Navy, almost in full force, went over to the side of the Soviet government:
      - Baron Alexander Alexandrovich von Taube, Lieutenant General of the Imperial Army ..
      - Baron Vladimir Alexandrovich Olderogge hereditary nobleman, Major General of the Imperial Army ..
      - His Excellency Lieutenant General of the Imperial Army Vladimir Nikolaevich Egoriev ..
    14. The comment was deleted.
    15. The comment was deleted.
    16. +1
      1 September 2020 17: 54
      ... His Excellency Lieutenant General of the Imperial Army, a hereditary nobleman Vladimir Ivanovich Selichev ..
      - his honor, colonel of the imperial army Sergey Dmitrievich Kharlamov .. - offspring. nobleman..
      - His Excellency Major General of the Imperial Army Sergei Ivanovich Odintsov ... a family nobleman
      - His Excellency Lieutenant General of the Imperial Army Dmitry Pavlovich Parsky hereditary nobleman ..
      - His Excellency Lieutenant General of the Imperial Army Dmitry Nikolaevich Reliable hereditary nobleman ..
      - His Excellency Major General of the Imperial Army A.P. Nikolaev ..
      - His Excellency Major General of the Imperial Army A.V. Stankevich ..
      - His Excellency Major General of the Imperial Army A.V. Sobolev
      - General of the cavalry Alexei Alekseevich Brusilov ..
      - General of Infantry Alexey Andreevich Polivanov ..
      - General of Infantry Andrei Meandrovich Zayonchkovsky ..
      - His Excellency General of Artillery Alexei Alekseevich Manikovsky ..
      - His Excellency Lieutenant General of the Russian Army, Count Alexei Alekseevich Ignatiev ..
      - their younger comrades - Colonel B.M. Shaposhnikov, staff captains A.M. Vasilevsky and F.I. Tolbukhin, second lieutenant L.A. Govorov ..
      In the Red Army, 75 thousand former officers served (of which 62 thousand were of noble origin), while in the White Army there were about 35 thousand of the 150 thousand officer corps of the Russian Empire. I suppose it’s not worth throwing dirt on all the nobility or officers. In the spring of 1919, in the battles near Yamburg, the White Guards captured and executed the brigade commander of the 19th rifle division, the former Major General of the Imperial Army A.P. Nikolaev. The same fate befell in 1919 the commander of the 55th rifle division, former Major General A.V. Stankevich, in 1920 - the commander of the 13th rifle division of the former Major General A.V. Sobolev. Remarkably, before death, all the generals were offered to go over to the side of the whites, and all refused. The honor of a Russian officer is more precious than life.
    17. -1
      3 November 2020 17: 16
      1. The Bolsheviks are Russophobes. Smerdyakovs. Not a single word "Russia" can be found on their slogans. They didn’t need Russia, they needed a world revolution. For this, Russia was sacrificed
      2. Yes, the whites were allied with the Entente. But the Whites and the Entente perceived the Bolsheviks as traitors to the common cause. Russia did not endure a year until victory. Having signed the treacherous shameful Brest Peace, the Bolsheviks went over to the camp of the countries of the Quadruple Alliance.
      3. Did the Bolsheviks not use the forces of the Hungarians, Austrians, Chinese, Latvians. They enthusiastically killed all Russians in a row, rich and poor.
      4. The same Bolsheviks will beg from the very Entente for weapons and troops in 41-45.