French "Nazi victors": from shameful surrender to the war for Hitler


French prisoners of war. Northern France, 1940. Photo: Federal Archive of Germany


Speaking about the main “allies” of the Soviet Union in the Anti-Hitler coalition and their real “contribution” to the Great Victory, it would be completely wrong to pass over the role and place in that war of France in silence. Also, it’s kind of like the “victors of Nazism”. Yeah ...

Even in the Victory Parade in 2010 participated. Fortunately, and the date is quite suitable “on the nose” - exactly 80 years ago, on June 14, 1940, the Nazis surrendered without a single shot. The truth about how, with whom and on whose side the French fought during the Second World War and the Great Patriotic War, in this country they do not like to remember. I will tell you why.

Strange War or European Giveaway


To begin with, de jure at war with the Third Reich, France was on September 3, 1939. That's just what happened on the border of these two countries, did not even draw to a weak border conflict, not to mention hostilities involving the leading powers of Europe. Ten days after the official declaration of war to Berlin, the French soldiers crossed the border and even advanced some distance. However, after this, without even encountering serious resistance (where did he come from - the main forces of the Wehrmacht were just cracking down on Poland!), These “brave warriors”, having trodden for some time on the spot, retired amicably. What for?! According to the official version - "wait for the British." Well, they didn’t want to "drag chestnuts out of the fire" in Paris for London, which was sitting out, as usual, in the English Channel. So they missed the only suitable moment in order to hit the Nazis in the back and end them with guarantee and without any problems.

Fortunately, this allowed even the power of the French army to be made - at the beginning of the conflict with Germany, it, at least, was not inferior to the German, and in some ways surpassed it. More than 2 million people, about 3 and a half thousand combat aircraft, more than 3 thousand tanks, many of which (about half a thousand) were much better than German ... Moreover, with the arrival of the British expeditionary force on the continent, the balance of forces did not change even more. Hitler's favor. Even taking into account the Italian allies of the Wehrmacht, which entered the war with the French at its final stage, and from which, frankly, as if from a goat of milk, the Franco-British coalition almost doubled the enemy in large-caliber artillery. By the number of tanks - one and a half times, by combat aircraft - also almost doubled. Human resources were almost equal.

And, nevertheless, to fight the Nazis all this power, to put it mildly, did not break. The French preferred to sit in the bastions of the Maginot Line, which contemporaries called the “peak of engineering” in the field of defensive fortifications, which was considered impregnable in principle. The British also did not seek to attack. This campaign was not without reason called the “strange war” - it seemed that the Allies, fearing to release an extra bullet at the Nazis, were trying in no way to prevent a real clash with them. London and Paris made it clear to the Wehrmacht generals and field marshals that if they continued to move to the East, begun on September 1, 1939, they would not be afraid of their rear! Hitler was literally pushed to start a war against the USSR: “Well, what are you waiting for ?! We have already given you the Rhine region, Austria, Czechoslovakia with all its military factories and arsenals ... So what kind of thing are you pulling, Fuhrer unfinished ?!

The fact that we declared war on you for Poland is just a make-believe, according to the rules of “big policy"As it should be. Attack the Bolsheviks - and no one will touch you, is it not clear what? Well, it’s said that the corporal is the corporal ... ”The fact that the reasoning, and at the highest levels in the capitals of Britain and France was carried out in this way, conclusively proves one single fact: they were really going to fight there. But not with the Third Reich, but with the USSR! In late autumn 1939 (three months after the occupation of Poland by the Wehrmacht!), The British, in company with the French, very seriously developed plans to enter the war with the USSR on the side of Finland. They were planning to land landing parties in Norway and Sweden, to bomb our oil fields in the Caucasus ... The victory of the Red Army in the "Winter War" did not allow these plans to materialize - they simply did not have time. Nevertheless, they demonstrate the true intentions of the West more than eloquently.

"Warriors" with reduced social responsibility


Because France and Britain ended up with the Nazis “on opposite sides of the barricades”, their peoples should be thanked not by their own rulers, but only by Hitler, who decided to solve all the problems in the West before the battle with the “Asian-Bolshevik hordes”. The entire campaign that followed was one huge disgrace - naturally, for those with whom the Wehrmacht waged war. Denmark, captured by him in 6 hours, Luxembourg, not resisting even one day (7 killed on both sides during the whole operation), “held” the whole 4 days the Netherlands ... Someone can say that we are talking about states whose forces could not Compare with Nazi Germany. Well, do not tell! The Dutch army numbered 400 thousand people, the Belgians - 600 thousand. A little more than the garrison of the Brest Fortress, is not it? The 45 Soviet border outposts attacked on June 22, 1941, which had 40 minutes to suppress in the Barbaross plan, lasted more than 45 days! One and a half months, six weeks ...

That is how much the Wehrmacht needed to smash the two millionth French army along with the British at the same time. Yes, about 95 thousand French people died in that war. One and a half million were captured. But the Nazi army during the occupation of half of Europe (France, Belgium, the Netherlands), did not lose killed and 46 thousand. No one stood to death. And the only attempt to counterattack the Germans was the actions of Charles de Gaulle. The Wehrmacht entered Paris in a ceremonial march, not meeting the slightest resistance! There was no one who at least dared to spit towards the invaders. They stood and stared mournfully, with European cow obedience ... Moreover, looking a little ahead, I note that no matter what tales there were about the French "resistance", the first German officer (sailor) was killed in Paris more than a year after his occupation - August 21 1941 year. Pierre Georges, the French communist, shot him ...

Well, even once it came to the Resistance ... The French partisans, "poppies" over the years began to portray the most heroic colors, almost equating to our people's avengers. All this pathos epic does not correspond to reality at all. Degolle's “Free France”, which, by the way, lodged in London, as of 1940, consisted of about 7 thousand people. Partisans in the mountains? Well, of course, there were ... Would you like to get acquainted with the names of several "French" units? “Kotovsky”, “Stalingrad”, “Donbass” ... Doesn't it suggest any thoughts? That's right - the main skeleton of resistance to the Nazis at the initial stage of the war was made by our compatriots, and, as, first of all, Soviet prisoners of war, who managed to escape from the camps, and Russian emigrants. Even the nobles, who had never sympathized with the Bolsheviks, were in considerable numbers. The anthem of the French Resistance was written by Russian, and then it even had to be translated into French.

Until mid-late 1941, there were no partisans in France from the word "completely." We can talk about any kind of mass anti-Nazi movement on its territory only starting in 1943, when Hitler’s affairs on the Eastern Front went on - there is nowhere worse. That's when they started to "pull up". By 1944, the number of "poppies" exceeded 130 thousand. That's just bad luck - the French were there, again, sparse. Almost half (more than 60 thousand) were Spanish Republicans. Thousands were, as I said, Soviet or Russian people. And also Armenians, Jews, Italians. There were even German anti-fascists, and, again, in considerable numbers! Up to a million, the number of "French anti-fascists" has risen sharply just before the Americans entered Paris. Then, of course, there were even more of them.

Charlemagne and others


Alas, speaking of the number (real, but not that emerged after the Victory) of the French partisans and underground members, of the heroic squadron Normandy-Niemen, which included 72 French citizens, one cannot be silent about other figures. The recruitment to the Legion of French Volunteers (LVF) for the war against the USSR was announced by the leader of the local fascist party PPF Parti Populaire Francais PPF Jacques Doriot on June 22, 1941. Soon, the initiative was approved in Berlin, and things started - in total, from 1941 to 1944, more than 13 thousand Frenchmen sought to join its ranks. True, many of them were screened out by harsh German doctors as unsuitable, but yes, they still found a case in their homeland, which I will talk about a little later. Be that as it may, in the late autumn of 1941, the first 3 thousand combatants from LVF arrived in Russia, trying once more to take part in the battle for Moscow. The version that they once again had a chance to meet with the Russians on the field near Borodino is most likely a beautiful legend - it does not coincide in dates.

On the other hand, this time these successors of Napoleon’s business didn’t get to the capital of our Motherland either - they were smashed to pieces at the approaches. Subsequently, the Germans preferred to use not very effective allies not at the front, but for various punitive and anti-partisan actions. Cutthroats from the LVF, the “Tricolor Legion” and other similar French-Nazi groups, completely “marked” in Ukraine, Belarus and other occupied territories. The former colonel of the Foreign Legion of France, Edgar Puot, who headed this gang, was awarded the general rank and two Iron Crosses for the "war" with peaceful Soviet residents. Toward the end of World War II, all this scum along with scraps of similar parts was reduced to 33. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS Charlemagne - the 33rd (or 1st French) SS division Charlemagne. In May 1945, several hundred of its soldiers and officers defended Berlin and even stood in the Reich Chancellery until the last. They didn’t fight for Paris like that ...

The exact number of Frenchmen who fought against the USSR as part of the SS and the Wehrmacht, alas, was not preserved in any document. It is only known for certain that ultimately in the Soviet captivity there were more than 23 thousand. Based on this, most researchers conclude that the number we are looking for is in no way less than 70, or even 100 thousand people. So compare it with Normandy-Neman ... Moreover, tens of thousands of Frenchmen who obeyed the collaborationist government of Hitler's puppet Vichy fought against the British and Americans in the French colonies - Senegal, Syria, Lebanon, Algeria, Madagascar. In France itself, there was an analogue of the Gestapo - Carlingue, numbering 30 thousand employees and very similar to the SS "police guard units" involved in the hunt for Jews and Communists. These were one and a half times more. In addition, there was a “regular” police police nationale, a considerable number (10 thousand in Paris alone), also involved in the persecution of Jews, of whom, I recall, in France more than 75 thousand were driven into concentration camps.

It seems that, one way or another, from 300 thousand to half a million Frenchmen actively supported the Nazis with weapons in their hands, at least at the initial stage of the war. It was then that they began to surrender en masse to the Americans and sign up for the Resistance. After the defeat of Germany, about 40 thousand people were convicted of collaboration in France. About 2 thousand were sentenced to death, 768 actually executed. This is - as for, so to speak, personal participation. But we must not forget about the other - about the millions of Frenchmen, who worked diligently and diligently throughout the war, providing the Wehrmacht with weapons technique, ammunition, uniforms and food. Here are just a few figures - from 1940 to 1944, 4 thousand combat aircraft and 10 thousand engines for them, 52 thousand trucks left the conveyors of French plants. All this, as you know, was intended for the "victorious German army." As well as mortars, howitzers, armored vehicles and more. The memoirs of German officers have been preserved, admiring how the French “unconditionally and without the slightest coercion” worked, multiplying the fighting power of the Third Reich.

In the number of "winners of Nazism" France introduced ... Who would you think? Stalin! Not out of proletarian internationalism and not because of it, naturally, but solely because the Supreme was preferable to a free state with Charles de Gaulle at the head (subsequently not very friendly with the Americans and withdrawing the country from NATO) than the territory occupied by other "allies" ". Yes, yes, the Americans and the British did not see the French “contribution to the victory over Nazism” point blank and intended to tear the country they had liberated into zones under their control. Since then, it has been customary to consider France “a member of the anti-Hitler coalition” and one of the states that “won the Second World War”. Nevertheless, we must remember how it really was.
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  1. Cyril Offline
    Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 11: 06
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    Saturday, A. Neukropny this time he decided to iron "the shameful Frenchmen."

    I even remembered about Charlemagne and other collaborators - 100 intact. Wow, damned paddling pools !!

    Probably, you should not talk to the author about about 1,5 million Soviet citizens who fought on the Wehrmacht side during the Second World War. And then his blow is enough))
    1. Dear sofa expert. 13 June 2020 12: 50
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      1,5 million Soviet citizens who fought on the side of the Wehrmacht during the Second World War

      And these "1,5 million" today did not disappear. Only they are no longer “Soviet”, but all kinds of “Western Ukrainian” ones there.
      1. Cyril Offline
        Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 13: 19
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        Only they are no longer “Soviet”, but all kinds of “Western Ukrainian” ones there

        I hasten to disappoint you, most of the Soviet collaborators were Russians.
        1. Dear sofa expert. 13 June 2020 13: 49
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          I hasten to disappoint you, most of the Soviet collaborators were Russians.

          These are just your speculations.
          1. Cyril Offline
            Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 13: 51
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            laughing laughing
            No, my dear friend, this is statistics.
            1. Dear sofa expert. 13 June 2020 13: 54
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              No, my dear friend, this is statistics.

              I do not see any statistics. Only the fruits of your, incomprehensibly than motivated, inflamed imagination.
              1. Cyril Offline
                Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 13: 57
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                According to K. Alexandrov, approximately 1941 million Soviet citizens carried military service on the German side in 1945-1,24: 400 thousand Russians (including 80 thousand in Cossack units), 250 thousand Ukrainians, 180 thousand representatives peoples of Central Asia, 90 thousand Latvians, 70 thousand Estonians, 40 thousand representatives of the Volga peoples, 38,5 thousand Azerbaijanis, 37 thousand Lithuanians, 28 thousand representatives of the peoples of the North Caucasus, 20 thousand Belarusians, 20 thousand Georgians , 20 thousand Crimean Tatars, 20 thousand Russian Germans and Volksdeutsche, 18 thousand Armenians, 5 thousand Kalmyks, 4,5 thousand Ingermanlanders (mainly in the Finnish army); no exact numbers of Moldovans
                1. Dear sofa expert. 13 June 2020 15: 07
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                  According to K. Alexandrov

                  Sooooh .... well, let's see what kind of goose this "broadcaster of truth" is.

                  Accusation of extremism
                  The text of Aleksandrov’s article “Bandera and Bandera: who they really were” published in 2014 in the Novaya Gazeta, [16] by a decision of the Leninsky District Court of St. Petersburg dated March 27, 2017 [17] at the suit of the St. Petersburg prosecutor was recognized as extremist material. In support of the claim, the prosecutor submitted a conclusion from St. Petersburg State University, according to which the article “denies acts established by the verdict of the International Military Tribunal for the trial and punishment of the main axis war criminals of European countries, approves the crimes established by the verdict, as well as disseminates knowingly false information about the activities of the USSR during the Second World War. ”
                  Wiki

                  Here he is, this one of yours, Kirill Mikhailovich Alexandrov.

                  And who are you trying to slip this junk here? By the way, this is also called Cyril, so sorry, if that.)
                  1. isofat Offline
                    isofat (Sergei) 13 June 2020 15: 46
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                    This historian works for LRT Radijas - Lithuanian National Radio and Television.
                    1. Cyril Offline
                      Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 16: 17
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                      This historian works for LRT Radijas - Lithuanian National Radio and Television.

                      So what? Do other historians work there too?
                      1. Dear sofa expert. 13 June 2020 16: 25
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                        So what? Do other historians work there too?

                        But you cited Alexandrov as an example. Your statement was unconvincing.
                      2. Cyril Offline
                        Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 16: 27
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                        I gave you an example of other historians who give the same or similar data.

                        In addition, you did not provide any data at all to prove that most Soviet collaborators came from Western Ukraine.
                      3. isofat Offline
                        isofat (Sergei) 13 June 2020 16: 46
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                        No historians will be enough for your lies. smile
                      4. Cyril Offline
                        Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 17: 06
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                        No historians will be enough for your lies.

                        laughing laughing laughing You have a good attempt to justify your inability to bring at least some evidence of your position ... It just matches your level of first grader.
                      5. isofat Offline
                        isofat (Sergei) 13 June 2020 17: 24
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                        Quote: Cyril
                        You have a good attempt to justify your inability to provide at least some evidence of your position ...

                        CyrilI'm glad my attempt is good. Unfortunately, you did not please me, but I hope that next time you still will shine. smile
                      6. Cyril Offline
                        Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 17: 29
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                        Unfortunately, you did not please me.

                        And I never had such a goal.
                      7. isofat Offline
                        isofat (Sergei) 13 June 2020 17: 33
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                        It’s possible that you’re right, where are you? smile
                  2. shadow Offline
                    shadow 14 June 2020 18: 06
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                    Well, yes, the source, especially the yellow one, is yours)))
                  3. Cyril Offline
                    Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 18: 50
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                    Not yours. You like to refer to fake news here.
                  4. shadow Offline
                    shadow 14 June 2020 19: 16
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                    Is the official channel false news? Why didn’t anyone refute then? There was no refutation. So it’s only you have jaundice)).
                    There, again pulled on a yellowish.
                    I was looking for another liar. What then what now.
                    Bottom line: Jaundice is yours)))
                    But can you tell me why NASA is buying a ticket from Roscosmos again? What is that?)))
                  5. Cyril Offline
                    Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 19: 23
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                    Is the official channel false news?

                    Count on the officiality of the channel is not a guarantee of the reliability of the news presented on it.

                    Why didn’t anyone refute then?

                    There were a lot of denials of that fake news. You just are not able to read them, even when you are poked in them.

                    But can you tell me why NASA is buying a ticket from Roscosmos again? What is that?)))

                    This is not a secret - NASA is reinsured in case the Dragons and Starliners fail for some reason.
                  6. shadow Offline
                    shadow 14 June 2020 19: 40
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                    If the official channel is not a guarantee of the accuracy of the news presented on it, then, in your words, all that you brought is nonsense and nonsense. So you are raving.
                    Specifically, nobody officially denied Pushkova.
                    Reinsured)))
                    But the astronaut herself says the opposite.
                    Interviewed by Ars Technician. You will find the link yourself if not deleted. You know how in America they treat freedom of speech and expression))
  • Cyril Offline
    Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 15: 48
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    And who are you trying to slip this junk here?

    It's funny that the court, which established the "extremist nature of the article," did not summon Aleksandrov to the meeting. That is, the trial took place without the accused. This is about the objectivity of the court.

    Similar figures are given by historians S.I. Drobyazko, B.N. Kovalev, A.V. Karashchuk, M.I.Semiryaga, etc.

    I understand that it’s difficult for you to accept reality, but sooner or later you will have to do it.
    1. isofat Offline
      isofat (Sergei) 13 June 2020 15: 58
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      Quote: Cyril
      I understand that it’s difficult for you to accept reality, but sooner or later you will have to do it.

      Cyril, I understand that your reality is to rummage through the garbage, it’s hard for you, but such is life, as without garbage, bear it. Although, perhaps, you get pleasure from this, as you know.
      1. Cyril Offline
        Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 16: 16
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        I understand that your reality is rummaging through the garbage

        If for you the awareness and acceptance of the history of your country with all its advantages and disadvantages is digging in the trash, then approx.

        it's hard for you, but such is life, as without garbage, bear

        You are not telling me this, but tell my opponent. I, unlike him, acknowledge the fact that among the Soviet collaborators, ethnic Russians took the first place in number, and only then Ukrainians and other peoples. To justify, I do not justify them. True, I do not blame everyone without exception - everyone had different reasons for cooperating with the Germans. Someone from ideological considerations, someone because of dissatisfaction with the Soviet regime, someone just to survive.
      2. isofat Offline
        isofat (Sergei) 13 June 2020 16: 33
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        Quote: Cyril
        You are not telling me this, but tell my opponent.

        CyrilDo not make excuses. As he says Sergey Marzhetskywhose delicate humor I appreciated late - everything is fixed!
        It is easy to read our controversy. You are propagandos. smile

        I submit this statement to the reader.
      3. Cyril Offline
        Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 16: 57
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        It is easy to read our controversy. You are propagandos.

        If for you the recognition of the unflattering sides of the history of your own country is “propaganda,” then approx.
      4. isofat Offline
        isofat (Sergei) 13 June 2020 17: 55
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        Cyril, my friend, admit that you want. We live in a free country. You do not just have to distort History. The purity of the source of information from which you are trying to get us all drunk is on your conscience.
      5. Cyril Offline
        Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 17: 56
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        You do not just have to distort History.

        Is there evidence of a distortion of history in this case?) I'm really looking forward to)
      6. isofat Offline
        isofat (Sergei) 13 June 2020 18: 10
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        Quote: Cyril
        there is evidence of a distortion of history in this case?) I'm really looking forward)

        Cyri, only in this, and in no other? Did I understand you correctly, poisoner candidate sources of information? !! smile
      7. Cyril Offline
        Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 18: 19
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        Cyri, only in this, and in no other?

        Are we discussing the ethnic composition of Soviet collaborators? Here. I cited the data of a candidate of historical sciences, that is, a person who has a degree.

        You claim that he is "distorting the story." Prove your claim. I'm really looking forward to.
      8. isofat Offline
        isofat (Sergei) 13 June 2020 18: 33
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        Quote: Cyril
        You claim that he is "distorting the story." Prove your claim.

        Cyri. I understand you correctly, the answer to my question will not be?

        PS You, like annoying advertising, I’m tired of you too. smile
      9. Cyril Offline
        Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 18: 40
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        I understand you correctly, the answer to my question will not be?

        I answered your question in the form in which it was asked. If you meant something else - express yourself more clearly.

        You, like annoying advertising, are also tired of me.

        Acting on the principle of "I ran after you three days and three nights to say how you are indifferent to me" (c)?
      10. The comment was deleted.
      11. Cyril Offline
        Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 22: 38
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        And why are you quoting this to me? Unlike you, I remember very well what I wrote.
      12. isofat Offline
        isofat (Sergei) 13 June 2020 22: 53
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        This is not a test of your memory, it is an unsuccessful test result of the editor.
      13. isofat Offline
        isofat (Sergei) 13 June 2020 23: 09
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        Not too lazy, looked the first "historian" on your list. It turns out that he is a frequent guest of Echo of Moscow. I think the rest are the same.

        I immediately remembered two historians who did not want to remember or forgot the date of birth of Russian statehood. Like historians, but ...
      14. Cyril Offline
        Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 15: 10
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        It turns out that he is a frequent guest of Echo of Moscow.

        So what? Are true historians only those who appear on Sputnik radio?

        I immediately remembered two historians who did not want to remember or forgot the date of birth of Russian statehood.

        Surnames?
      15. isofat Offline
        isofat (Sergei) 14 June 2020 15: 18
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        Quote: Cyril
        Your incoherent comments - yes, I do not understand.

        Cyrilwhy are you asking questions? You still don’t understand! smile
      16. Cyril Offline
        Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 15: 19
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        why are you asking questions?

        Indeed, you are still not able to answer specific questions.
  • Dear sofa expert. 13 June 2020 18: 06
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    I, unlike him, admit that fact.

    There are no facts.

    ethnic Russians were the largest.

    Who checked ethnicity?

    then Ukrainians and other nations.

    Was the percentage of the ethnic group to the participants in the “subject of the dispute” taken into account?

    To justify, I do not justify them.

    Do you have a right?

    To justify, I do not justify them. True, I do not blame everyone

    Do you have such a right? Are you a judge
  • Cyril Offline
    Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 18: 25
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    No facts

    There is data provided by a candidate of historical sciences.

    Who checked ethnicity?

    Candidate of historical sciences, to which I refer.

    Was the percentage of the ethnic group to the participants in the “subject of the dispute” taken into account?

    What does this have to do with my assertion that among the Soviet collaborators, the majority were ethnic Russians?

    Do you have such a right? Are you a judge

    Well, you make a personal moral assessment of the French or, say, Czech collaborators)) Or you can, but I can not?)
  • Dear sofa expert. 13 June 2020 18: 39
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    Candidate of historical sciences, to which I refer.

    Unknown. There is no information about him. Not convincing.

    Well, you make a personal moral assessment of the French or, say, Czech collaborators.

    No, I don’t care about them.

    My father's father was Russian. My father’s mother is half Jewish, half Belarusian.
    My mother's mother was Ukrainian. My mother’s father is Russian.
    Define my ethnicity, then we'll talk.
  • Cyril Offline
    Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 18: 46
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    Unknown. There is no information about him.

    Why, the whole Wikipedia article indicating his alma mater, academic degree.

    No, I don’t care about them.

    Really ROA, Ukrainian nationalists, Cossack battalions Krasko and Shkuro also do not condemn? belay

    My father's father was Russian. My father’s mother is half Jewish, half Belarusian.
    My mother's mother was Ukrainian. My mother’s father is Russian.
    Define my ethnicity, then we'll talk.

    That is, the ethnos of the "Western Ukrainian" collaborators you define with the click of a finger, and now you are in a pose - they say, yes, we’ve got it all right, can’t we determine now?)
  • Dear sofa expert. 13 June 2020 20: 32
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    That is, the ethnos of the "Western Ukrainian" collaborators you define with the click of a finger, and now you are in a pose - they say, yes, we’ve got everything right, can’t we now determine?

    Cyril, you just bored me.
    Well, of course, I understand that you, as ukro-troll, have a very specific task here - to spoil Russia.
    But since this topic is so close to you, you will not mind that only the underground army of Ukrainian nationalists (UPA), according to your favorite Wikipedia, totaled more than 400 thousand people?
    But it breaks your version for you. How will you live with this?
  • Cyril Offline
    Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 20: 59
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    Now read carefully what exactly Alexandrov said:

    According to K. Alexandrov, military service on the German side in 1941-1945, approximately 1,24 million Soviet citizens carried: 400 thousand Russians (including 80 thousand in Cossack formations), 250 thousand Ukrainians, 180 thousand representatives of the peoples of Central Asia, 90 thousand Latvians , 70 thousand Estonians, 40 thousand representatives of the Volga peoples, 38,5 thousand Azerbaijanis, 37 thousand Lithuanians, 28 thousand representatives of the peoples of the North Caucasus, 20 thousand Belarusians, 20 thousand Georgians, 20 thousand Crimean Tatars, 20 thousand Russian Germans and Volksdeutsche, 18 thousand Armenians, 5 thousand Kalmyks, 4,5 thousand Ingermanlanders (mainly in the Finnish army); there are no exact data on the number of Moldavians [6].

    This paragraph concerns precisely those citizens of the USSR who fought for the Germans in the military and police units created by the Germans themselves (like the same ROA). These figures do not include members of other organizations that collaborated with the Germans on an ongoing or sporadic basis. That is why neither Ukrainian UPA with the OUN, nor Russian or other detachments organized independently are included here. The UPA and the OUN were independent organizations whose relations with the Germans ranged from cooperation to hostilities.

    So no, you did not break my version.

    Read carefully and you will be happy.
  • Dear sofa expert. 13 June 2020 21: 10
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    I hasten to disappoint you, most of the Soviet collaborators were Russians.

    Cyril, I do not care what Alexandrov wrote. It began with your statements. Now say again in your words, not Aleksandrov (if you and he, of course, are not the same person)):

    Do you consider the 400th UPA army to be collaborators? Yes or no?
  • Cyril Offline
    Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 21: 19
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    Cyril, I do not care what Alexandrov wrote.

    Yes, I know that you do not care about research, but they put you in an awkward position.

    Do you consider the 400th UPA army to be collaborators? Yes or no?

    Partly yes.
  • Dear sofa expert. 13 June 2020 21: 54
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    you don't care about research

    - I did not want to spit on the research of Russophobe Alexandrov, whose personality we had already discussed. The opinion of an Russophobe enemy intentionally distorting historical facts is not a priori interesting.

    Partly yes.

    And I - just Yes.
    Decide first on your parts, then issue your verdicts.
  • Cyril Offline
    Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 21: 59
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    On research Russophobe Alexandrova, whose identity we have already discussed - I did not care.

    The fact of the matter is that data needs to be discussed, not personality. The argument to the personality in logic is considered either a method of demagogy or a logical mistake.

    Opinion of the Russophobe enemy intentionally distorting historical facts

    You did not give any facts proving these distortions.

    And I - just Yes.

    And should I care about your black and white thinking?
  • Dear sofa expert. 13 June 2020 22: 07
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    The fact of the matter is that data needs to be discussed, not personality.

    First of all, it is a person. Who is he, what is he, why is he. And then the trouble is, if the shoemaker starts to bake the pie, and the boots go with the pastry.
    And the personality is rotten and engaged.

    You did not give any facts proving these distortions.

    I recognize your handwriting: again a fairy tale about a white bull. Repeat laziness, read above.

    And should I care about your black and white thinking?

    No, you can not argue, but simply accept everything as an axiom.
  • Cyril Offline
    Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 22: 13
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    First of all, it is a person.

    That is, you directly admit that you do not care about the principles of an unbiased and logical discussion?) Ok.

    I recognize your handwriting: again a fairy tale about a white bull.

    Yes, again an indication of your inability to confirm your point of view with facts.

    but just accept everything as an axiom.

    Recognize your inability to think critically? Yes, I did it a long time ago.
  • Dear sofa expert. 13 June 2020 22: 15
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    I have done it a long time ago.

    This is the only right decision you made today!
  • Dear sofa expert. 13 June 2020 22: 22
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    That is, you directly admit that you do not care about the principles of an unbiased and logical discussion?) Ok

    Yes, that's just what I have principles. And I’ll go fight for them when needed. And here you are - you won’t go.
  • Cyril Offline
    Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 22: 36
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    Yes, that's just what I have principles. And I’ll go fight for them when needed.

    Go fight for the principles of illogical thinking?) Well, success)

    And here you are - you won’t go.

    For your stupid principles - no, I won’t go.
  • Dear sofa expert. 13 June 2020 23: 20
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    For your stupid principles - no, I won’t go

    There are no stupid principles a priori. They are either according to the situation or they are not.
    Now, if the question is not fundamental, then there is no principle. We somehow argued over the engines from American missiles. I got confused there, but then I saw my mistake and publicly acknowledged it. I did not go on the principle, because it was not there. Just technical graters.
    There is a principle here. And you know what is the difference between you and me, my friend? (you first called me that, if that).
    My principle is based on love for my Motherland - Russia. And yours is on your hatred of my Motherland - Russia.
    Feel the difference?
    So here. I will fight for love, if that. And the fact that you are not going to fight for your hatred, as I understand it. For hatred, dying is somehow "not very", somehow not "great", right? And for love, for all ages, all over the world - easily and honorably.
    Therefore, you with your rotten principles will never defeat me either here or in real life.
  • Cyril Offline
    Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 23: 42
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    My principle is based on love for my Motherland - Russia. And yours is on your hatred of my Motherland - Russia.

    And where did you see in my words hatred of Russia?

    So here. I will fight for love, if that. And the fact that you are not going to fight for your hatred, as I understand it. For hatred, dying is somehow "not very", somehow not "great", right? And for love, for all ages, all over the world - easily and honorably.

    Wow, how much pathos. Unnecessary. Some kind of love has been dragged in, hatred ... I am only discussing specific historical events (collaboration in the USSR). I can’t stand any moral assessment of this event, I’m just talking about numbers.
  • Dear sofa expert. 13 June 2020 23: 48
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    Wow, how much pathos.

    And how do you like?) I'm Russian. or is it closer to you, just like in Latin American films, just to come and stupidly shot?)
    No, drink the cup of shit you deserve, as they say - to the bottom! This is your ce la vie.
    By the way, the fact that you no longer object to the stigma of “Ukrotroll” is already significant.
  • Cyril Offline
    Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 15: 13
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    By the way, the fact that you no longer object to the stigma of “Ukrotroll” is already significant.

    To object to your idle speculation? Keep it to yourself.

    And how do you like?) I'm Russian. Or is it closer to you, just like in Latin American films, just to come and stupidly shot?)

    Usually just those who beat themselves in the chest with a heel on the sofa - "Yes, I, yes, I will lay my bones!" in a real emergency, they are silent quietly and in a rag. Everyone knows how to broadcast pathetically with a sofa.
  • 321 Offline
    321 (321) 14 June 2020 15: 41
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    Quote: Cyril
    ... Usually just those who beat themselves on the sofa with their heels in the chest "Yes, I, yes, I will lay my bones!" in a real emergency, they are silent quietly and in a rag. Everyone knows how to broadcast pathetically with a sofa.

    Here you are promoting your customs and habits for what purpose? negative
    Your features are of little interest to anyone ... bully
  • The comment was deleted.
  • Dear sofa expert. 13 June 2020 16: 11
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    It's funny that the court, which established the "extremist nature of the article," did not summon Aleksandrov to the meeting.

    Here's how you now have to get out for your namesake))
    Do you understand any other arguments about the Russians?
    1. Cyril Offline
      Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 16: 32
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      Here's how you now have to get out for your namesake))

      Where do you see twisting? This court decision, by the way, was later declared invalid by another court.

      Do you understand any other arguments about the Russians?

      I gave you an example of other Russian historians, you can argue with them. And, most importantly, you have not provided any evidence at all in favor of the fact that

      Only they are no longer “Soviet”, but all kinds of “Western Ukrainian” ones there

      This is not to mention the fact that the "Western Ukrainian" during the Second World War were also "Soviet"))
    2. Dear sofa expert. 13 June 2020 16: 56
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      I gave you an example of other Russian historians.

      What did you bring?

      S. I. Drobyazko, B. N. Kovalev, A. V. Karashchuk, M. I. Semiryaga

      S. I. Drobyazko - Candidate of Historical Sciences.
      Not even a doctor — that is, everything — is merely working on someone else’s dissertation. Whose? There are no special reviews in society about him.

      B. N. Kovalev - Actively worked in the 90s on Radio Liberty. You can not continue further.

      A.V. Karashchuk - Artist, Friend Drobyazko)

      M. I. Smiryaga is the only one from your list that really deserves attention. But even so, those are your numbers:

      400 thousand Russians (including 80 thousand in Cossack formations), 250 thousand Ukrainians, 180 thousand representatives of the peoples of Central Asia, 90 thousand Latvians, 70 thousand Estonians, 40 thousand representatives of the Volga peoples, 38,5 thousand Azerbaijanis, 37 thousand Lithuanians, 28 thousand representatives of the peoples of the North Caucasus, 20 thousand Belarusians, 20 thousand Georgians, 20 thousand Crimean Tatars, 20 thousand Russian Germans and Volksdeutsche, 18 thousand Armenians, 5 thousand Kalmyks, 4,5 thousand Ingermanlanders

      - You were taken not from his works, but from Wikipedia. So your attempts to manipulate data are futile.
    3. Cyril Offline
      Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 17: 04
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      So you generally did not provide any evidence of your claim that "most collaborators are different ladies of the Western Ukraine"))

      For my part, there are references to at least candidates of historical sciences (although, in fact, this is a degree). None of yours.
    4. Dear sofa expert. 13 June 2020 17: 31
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      For my part there are links.

      There are no references on your part to which you could objectively rely on your statements. All the chatter and lies. Prove that your specific numbers are correct.

      And I, in my statements, that:

      ... these "1,5 million" have not gone anywhere today. Only they are no longer “Soviet”, but all kinds of “Western Ukrainian” ones there.

      I rely on my personal perception of what is happening in Ukraine today.
      The conventional “1,5 million” was originally taken by me in brackets, and only emphasize the scale. By the way, this figure, if you approach it pragmatically, can easily turn out to be also greatly underestimated.
      I do not need to prove anything, everyone knows and sees this without me. And you are no exception. Simply, apparently, you want to leave the last word for yourself?) I willingly provide it to you.
    5. Cyril Offline
      Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 17: 35
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      There are no links on your part to which you could objectively rest against your statements. All the chatter and lies. Prove that your specific numbers are correct.

      laughing laughing That you prove that the figures given by the candidate of historical sciences Alexandrov, are a lie.

      I rely on my personal perception of what is happening in Ukraine today.

      laughing Your "personal perception" is against the study of a candidate of historical sciences. Hmmmm ... what's more? (This is a rhetorical question, you can not answer).

      I don’t have to prove anything, everyone knows and sees it even without me

      laughing laughing Q.E.D. For lack of any arguments you can only sacredly believe))
    6. Dear sofa expert. 13 June 2020 17: 45
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      For lack of any arguments you have.

      Yes, as much as you want. Read the proceedings: Academician A. V. Pyrsky, Doctor of All Sciences R. N. Tyrsky, and especially: Ph.D. B. N. Sitymantyrsky. Good luck reading)))
    7. Cyril Offline
      Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 17: 52
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      Yes, as much as you want. Read the proceedings: Academician A. V. Pyrsky, Doctor of All Sciences R. N. Tyrsky, and especially: Ph.D. B. N. Sitymantyrsky.

      This is just your level, yeah))
    8. Dear sofa expert. 13 June 2020 18: 08
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      This is just your level, yeah))

      I had to bend under you.
    9. Cyril Offline
      Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 18: 27
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      Why bend under me? It is enough to cite the data of another candidate of historical sciences, where it would be said that the majority of Soviet collaborators were "Western Ukrainians." You have not done so.
    10. Dear sofa expert. 13 June 2020 18: 49
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      Why bend under me.

      Do not distort, and then they will think that your obstinacy is from poor knowledge of the Russian language. Squeezing and bending down is not the same thing.

      It is enough to cite the data of another candidate of historical sciences.

      No, not enough. I already tried to play this game with different trolls. And with you as well. Did not like.

      You have not done so.

      I don’t have to.
    11. Cyril Offline
      Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 18: 55
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      Squeezing and bending down is not the same thing.

      Good. Do not bend down under me))

      No, not enough.

      Enough for me.

      And with you as well. Did not like.

      Something I did not see from you any reference to research.

      I don’t have to

      If you are not going to or are not able to defend your point of view - why did you even start arguing? Nobody forced you. And how it came to the justification of their words - oh, I am not obliged. Like a little kid.
  • isofat Offline
    isofat (Sergei) 13 June 2020 17: 43
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    Quote: Dear couch expert.
    And who are you trying to slip this junk here?

    Someone paid for the work of "historians", now the goods must be sold. Advertising manager Cyril climbs from the skin, extols.
    Probably in the United States even worse than we see from the outside.
    1. Cyril Offline
      Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 17: 54
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      Someone paid for the work of "historians", now the goods must be sold.

      laughing laughing When there is nothing to oppose - blame everyone for corruption))
      1. Dear sofa expert. 13 June 2020 18: 10
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        When there is nothing to oppose

        When there is nothing to oppose, go to the person and indicate to everyone their level.
      2. Cyril Offline
        Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 18: 15
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        The only problem is that I brought at least some evidence of my position, but you and your partner in faith do not.
    2. isofat Offline
      isofat (Sergei) 13 June 2020 18: 16
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      Quote: Cyril
      When there is nothing to oppose - blame everyone for corruption))

      Cyril, I have your proposal, except for the feeling of disgust, nothing else causes.
    3. Cyril Offline
      Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 18: 27
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      I have your proposal, except for the feeling of disgust, nothing else causes.

      Are you disgusted with yourself? Well, why so.
    4. isofat Offline
      isofat (Sergei) 13 June 2020 21: 24
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      Quote: Cyril
      When there is nothing to oppose - blame everyone for corruption))

      1. This is your thesis.
      2. I am disgusted with this proposal of yours.
      3. The word is not a sparrow, fly out - you will not catch!

      Quote: Cyril
      Are you disgusted with yourself? Well, why so.

      Read paragraph 2.

      PS I got a little more time to show readers your failure. smile
    5. Cyril Offline
      Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 21: 28
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      1. This is your thesis.

      Actually, you said that about the venality of historians, not me. I just expressed the principle that you use in your childhood attempts to get out.

      I am disgusted with your suggestions.

      But for some reason, you are acting in strict accordance with them.

      I had some more time to show readers your failure.

      But demonstrate yours.
    6. isofat Offline
      isofat (Sergei) 13 June 2020 21: 47
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      Quote: Cyril
      Actually, you said that about the corruption of historians

      Show a quote. Business ... I’m happy to see how you will distort my thoughts, putting your meaning into my suggestions. There is no other way for you. The reason for this behavior is your extraordinary mind!

      PS What is written with a pen, you can not cut it with an ax.
    7. Cyril Offline
      Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 21: 50
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      Show a quote. Something ..

      Yes Easy.

      Somebody paid for work "historians" now goods must be sold

      I’m happy to see how you distort my thoughts,

      No, I’ll be happy to see how you will once again, as a small child, refuse to take responsibility for your words.
    8. isofat Offline
      isofat (Sergei) 13 June 2020 22: 07
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      CyrilI was right! Thanks for the demo.

      Your thesis - When there is nothing to oppose - blame everyone for corruption,
      fits well with your actions.

      Can you please with something else? I would ask you to try to disown your own statement - to blame everyone for corruption when there is nothing to answer. It’s interesting to see how you do it?
    9. Cyril Offline
      Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 23: 10
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      Your thesis - When there is nothing to oppose - blame everyone for corruption,
      fits well with your actions.

      The only problem is that you blame all those who are objectionable to you for corruption, and not me)) Do not ascribe to me your vices.

      I would ask you to try to disown your own statement - to accuse everyone of corruption, when there is nothing to answer

      I'm from my words describing yours principles, do not deny))
    10. isofat Offline
      isofat (Sergei) 13 June 2020 23: 42
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      Quote: Cyril
      The only problem is that you blame all those who are objectionable to you for corruption, and not me

      Not true! I do not doubt your unsaleability. This is the first. And you have more benefit than harm. This is the second.

      Quote: Cyril
      I do not disown my words describing your principles

      I didn’t voice my principles. This is the third. smile

      PS Racism States cannot be defeated in the near future, of course. yes
    11. Cyril Offline
      Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 23: 48
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      I do not doubt your unsaleability.

      I didn’t doubt your ability to believe in some speculation without any evidence for that))

      I didn’t voice my principles.

      They do not have to be voiced in the form of an aphorism to express them. Your principle of moral discrediting those who express an opinion that you do not like is unambiguously expressed in that very phrase.

      Well, I don’t have such a principle - therefore, I have never once accused you of corruption, say, to the Kremlin.

      So yes, this is exactly your principle, and I just expressed it in one phrase.
    12. isofat Offline
      isofat (Sergei) 14 June 2020 00: 12
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      Quote: Cyril
      Your principle of moral discrediting those who express an opinion that you do not like

      Thank. I did not expect to morally discredit you. So I’m a very good person - so I have never accused you of schizophrenia either.

      PS With logic, a little better.
    13. Cyril Offline
      Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 01: 01
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      Thank. I did not expect to morally discredit you.

      But they were accused of "pro-paid", to which you also have no evidence))

      With logic, a little better.

      You? No.
    14. isofat Offline
      isofat (Sergei) 14 June 2020 01: 22
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      Quote: Cyril
      Do not attribute to me your vices.
    15. Cyril Offline
      Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 01: 23
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      Well, don’t ascribe to me your vices.
  • Cyril Offline
    Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 23: 49
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    Racism States not to win, in the near future, of course

    Of course. As in Russia.
  • isofat Offline
    isofat (Sergei) 14 June 2020 01: 00
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    Cyril, in the USA it is vital to fight racism, but in Russia it’s just stupid.
  • Cyril Offline
    Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 01: 04
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    in the USA it is vital to fight racism, but in Russia it’s just stupid.

    Is it stupid to fight racism? That is, let in Russia urinate (not necessarily physically) "non-Russians"? Or is it stupid because in Russia everything is so neglected that it is simply useless to fight?
  • isofat Offline
    isofat (Sergei) 14 June 2020 01: 12
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    The answer lies on the surface. I think you can handle it yourself, maybe someone will want to help you. smile
  • Cyril Offline
    Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 01: 14
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    The answer lies on the surface.

    Nope, not lying.
  • shadow Offline
    shadow 14 June 2020 18: 14
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    Comrade loves the yellow press. He also brought me evidence from a yellow humorous newsletter. True, then he began to say that I brought this evidence. So, this is yet to come. And then he will say that you are a log, Pinocchio and generally inadequate. It happens.
  • The comment was deleted.
  • shadow Offline
    shadow 14 June 2020 18: 04
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    Are you throwing jaundice again?)))
  • Igor Pavlovich Offline
    Igor Pavlovich (Igor Pavlovich) 13 June 2020 13: 24
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    Thanks to the Kremlin’s policy in recent years, there are already more “Western Ukrainian,” “South Caucasian,” and “East Asian” “Soviet” citizens than “Central Russian,” including even polar bears ...
  • gorenina91 Offline
    gorenina91 (Irina) 13 June 2020 12: 57
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    - Personally, I will put the author a plus ...
    - He fantasized quite a lot “in numbers” and he is often overwhelmed with “ironic emotionality” ... on the verge of manifesting cynicism towards “French belated patriotic attempts” to cling to the great victory over Hitler in WWII; but, in fact ...- he expresses truthful things ... - It was necessary to mention another shameful fact, blatant about the massive deprivation of hair of French women; who allegedly collaborated with the invaders ... - These are the French ... - they could do nothing but shave their own French women ... Cherchez la femme (Cherche la la fam) is visible ... - "look for a woman" .. - For the French, this is a universal lifesaver for all centuries ...

    In the number of "winners of Nazism" France introduced ... Who would you think? Stalin! Not out of proletarian internationalism and not because of it, naturally, but solely because the Supreme was preferable to a free state with Charles de Gaulle at the head (subsequently not very friendly with the Americans and withdrawing the country from NATO) than the territory occupied by other "allies" ". Yes, yes, the Americans and the British did not see any “contribution to the victory over Nazism” from the point of view of the French and intended to tear the country they had liberated into zones controlled by themselves. Since then, it has been customary to consider France “a member of the anti-Hitler coalition” and one of the states that “won the Second World War”.

    - In my opinion, Stalin made a very fatal mistake ... by dragging France, which disgraced itself, into the number of winners ... - It was even offensive to the real winners ...
    - And as for the allegedly "partition of France" by the victorious countries ... then Russia (the USSR) would also have got a part of the well-fed, undestroyed whole France ... - Well, who, namely Russia (USSR) deserved this first of all .. - And how then would it strengthen the position of Russia (USSR) in Zap. Europe ...
    - That would be at least some decent price for all the sacrifices that Russia (USSR) suffered in WWII ... - And then Russia got Poland, Romania, East Germany, Hungary destroyed by the war, which Russia (USSR) had to restore your own account .., at a time when a whole half of Russia (USSR) lay in ruins ... - Wow ...
  • Cheburgen Offline
    Cheburgen 13 June 2020 13: 42
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    Not only the paddling pools, all of Europe is shameful there. Take, for example, the Romanian camp, they fought on the side of Hitler and again Russia has their enemy N1, history does not teach anything bad, but in vain.
  • Tramp1812 Offline
    Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 13 June 2020 20: 52
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    The author very conscientiously and qualitatively processed the materials regarding the participation of France in the Second World War. The presentation of facts is successful, brisk. It is stated ironically, with humor. Unless derogatoryness could be reduced. But this is a matter of style. When signing the Act of Surrender, Keitel, seeing the representative of France Jean de Tassigny among the winners, exclaimed bitterly: "What? And did these also defeat us?" You can also recall de Gaulle, who "as a simple engineer" in the miniature of A. Raikin, traveled around London in the subway. How Churchill humiliated him and poked his nose in shameful defeat. Therefore, in essence, publication is difficult to object to.
    It is a pity that from the discussion of the raised issue the discussion very quickly slipped into the usual rut: in whose ranks were there more collaborators? Nonetheless. The author, being clearly "in the subject," made a fundamental inaccuracy. Apparently, in the excitement of writing. This one:

    Well, they didn’t want to "drag chestnuts out of the fire" in Paris for London, which was sitting out, as usual, in the English Channel.

    But this statement does not correspond to the actual circumstances.
    The government of Great Britain during the “strange war” was led by Neville Chamberlain. His policy of appeasing Germany was mercilessly criticized by Winston Churchill. And after the German offensive, it was Britain alone who fought the Reich and won a heroic victory in the Battle of England. Hitler, as Napoleon used to make the continental blockade of the Island, believed that Britain was the primary target in Europe. Having headed the government in May 1940, Churchill organized an unprecedented operation to evacuate the expeditionary force under the Germans nose. The entire population of England, who had boats, rushed to rescue "their guys" from the other side of the English Channel. I. Maisky - the USSR ambassador in London recalled how he had not seen the owner in the pub at that time. Which, according to English standards, should have meant his death, illness, or something like that. I took an interest. - How where, - the hostess was surprised? On the other side, of course, in France. We have a small boat, Jim saves our guys ... And the Big Blitz !? And the Bedecker carpet bombing ?! The Germans had almost 10000 combat aircraft, against 2800 British. And they lost the Battle of England, losing more than 1000 aircraft in three months. Operation Sea Lion over the occupation of England failed miserably. Berezhkov, a translator at the talks between the USSR and Germany in 1940, recalled ("with a diplomatic mission to Berlin") that Hitler suggested Molotov (the head of the Soviet delegation) share the English inheritance, since Great Britain was already broken. At that moment, the British air raid on Berlin began. And everyone hid in a bomb shelter. Molotov asked Hitler: "If England is defeated, then whose bombs are we hiding now?" Hitler answered nervously that little details remained. And this, I repeat, despite the fact that England waged a struggle with Hitler in complete solitude. At the same time, by the way, the British fleet off the coast of Tunisia completely defeated the French Navy, fearing that they would go over to the side of the Nazis. So, since the change of office in London in May 1940, the United Kingdom did not think to sit back. And boldly entered the battle with the Reich. One on one. And at the Battle of El Alamein, the liberation of North Africa, Italy, the conduct of convoys to Russia, made a significant contribution to the common Victory.
    1. Cyril Offline
      Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 21: 34
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      Therefore, in essence, publication is difficult to object to.

      True, the author, pointing to the "shameful" surrender of France to the Germans, for some reason missed the fact that in the first years of the Second World War, Germany occupied the USSR territory equal to 2 territories of France.

      Well, that is, the French "shameful cowards", once surrendered their country to the Germans, and the Soviet leadership - valiant fighters, although they surrendered a piece of territory 2 times larger. Some kind of double standards.
      1. Bakht Offline
        Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 13 June 2020 22: 12
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        You have some kind of perverse idea of ​​war. The Germans seized part of the territory of the USSR. Does this somehow shame the USSR, or speak of "double standards"? The USSR conquered this territory with battle and grew into new territories. And in this temporarily occupied territory, he buried the invaders. This must always be remembered.
        1. Cyril Offline
          Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 22: 33
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          You have some kind of perverse idea of ​​war.

          Normal

          The Germans seized part of the territory of the USSR. It somehow disgraces the USSR

          From the point of view of the author’s logic, it should be a disgrace. The USSR, having a slightly smaller number of personnel (4 million versus 5,5 million, and surpassed it very much in mobilization reserves), having significant superiority in technology and small arms, having much more natural resources, allowed the occupation of its lands, 2 times greater in terms of territory of France. Yes, the Germans never reached Moscow, but they almost reached it, although Moscow is so much further from the borders of the USSR than Paris is from the borders of France.

          The USSR conquered this territory with battle and gained new territories

          When a country stretches from the Atlantic to the Pacific Ocean, when there is, where to retreat (France did not have), when there is, where to evacuate plants - he would not have won back. When the USA helps her (France did not help) by supplying a huge amount of resources, food, modern equipment - he would not have conquered this territory with battle.
          1. Bakht Offline
            Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 13 June 2020 22: 39
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            Still perverse. What is mobilization, operational density, initiative, you do not know. The USSR had no chance of winning the Border Battle. When a division (by the way, which has taken up defensive positions in advance) in full strength and even having the support of aviation defends at a front of 50 km, it will be destroyed. What happened by the afternoon of June 22nd. In general, it makes no sense to analyze the course of hostilities for each division.
            Mobilization opportunities, economic potential and so on are also implicit. Germany had an advantage.
            As for the retreat, France had Algeria and half the world in overseas colonies. There was much to retreat. But they decided to give up.
            You cannot prove to anyone that France might not give up. Your opponent will be General De Gaulle. Try to prove it to him.
            1. Cyril Offline
              Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 22: 58
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              Still perverse.

              Normal

              What is mobilization, operational density, initiative, you do not know. The USSR had no chance of winning the Border Battle.

              And, that is, the defeat of the USSR at an early stage of the war, we explain the problems with "mobilization, operational density and initiative," and the defeat of France - "cowardice of shameful paddling pools."

              Indeed, well, what are the double standards))

              Mobilization opportunities, economic potential and so on are also implicit. Germany had an advantage.

              At the USSR:
              13 981 tanks
              9397 aircraft (7758 serviceable)
              52 666 guns and mortars.

              Germany and satellites:

              4215 tanks + 402 Allied tanks (2 times less).
              4,36 thousand aircraft + 964 Allied aircraft (one and a half times less).
              43 guns and mortars + 812 guns and mortars of the Allies (perhaps the only comparable).

              Plus, Germany fought a war on 2 fronts, the USSR - no. The fact that the USSR’s natural resources will be enough for dozens of Reichs and its allies will not be mentioned, so be it. And this is without taking into account Lend-Lease.

              As for the retreat, France had Algeria and half the world in overseas colonies.

              Well, you somehow try to organize a quick evacuation of troops and government agencies, the population across the sea, which is swarming with German submarines, and I'll see. And also try to transfer troops from overseas colonies. And also quickly - the Germans did not stand that way and noblely waited for the French to transfer troops from across the seas.

              Your opponent will be General De Gaulle.

              Oh, and how many troops did he evacuate?)
              1. Bakht Offline
                Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 13 June 2020 23: 09
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                France had 9 months to prepare. You can’t flaunt the number of troops. Once upon a time in the time of Napoleon, battalions and divisions were considered. What are military structures, this must be studied. Tell me, why were German tank divisions in the absence of tanks, and the Soviet mechanized corps, even having a hundred tanks, was no good? Honestly, and having 1000 tanks, he was no good. Why did the German TD have almost 1939 tanks in 400, and about 1941 in 200? There is no need to nod at the lack of tanks. The reorganization of the tank divisions of the Wehrmacht was made on the basis of the experience of fighting in France. The USSR did not have such an experience.
                In what sea were German submarines teeming? And in what quantity? I felt funny.
                Did you even read Churchill? He wrote everything. Why didn’t you read it?
                ----
                About the "cowardice of paddles", it is on your conscience. I didn’t say that. I spoke of the reluctance to fight the leadership of France. You just ask about the number of French troops in Algeria. And how bravely they fought with the allies. For some reason, they did not show such persistence with the Germans.
                Soldiers do their duty and fight. But orders were given to them by very specific high-ranking officers.
                1. Cyril Offline
                  Cyril (Kirill) 13 June 2020 23: 37
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                  France had 9 months to prepare.

                  But the USSR did not have them?)

                  Tell me why the German tank divisions in the absence of tanks were combat-ready, and the Soviet mechanized corps, even having a hundred tanks, was no longer worth it?

                  So I do not argue with this)) But only the same can be applied to France. But no, ours were valiant, just not ready and ineffective, and the French were simply definitely cowards.

                  You really still do not see double standards in your reasoning?

                  In what sea were German submarines teeming? And in what quantity? I felt funny.

                  As a result, from the Italian ships supplying the expeditionary force in North Africa, starting in the summer of 1941, no more than a third reached the target intact, and therefore German and Italian troops lacked literally everything. To correct the critical situation (the Italian fleet was powerless against the ships of the Allies) and in the manner of providing "fraternal assistance", the Reich government sent submarines to the Mediterranean Sea. The first 6 submarines sailed at the end of September from the Atlantic through Gibraltar. A month later, another 4 German submarines pulled in to help the Italians, and the hunt for the Allied ships began. The first victories soon followed: U-81 in the middle of November sank the British aircraft carrier Ark Royal in the area east of Gibraltar, U-331 managed to sink the English battleship Barham on November 25, and U-557 sank the British cruiser Galatea on December 14 ".

                  In addition to German submarines, the 2nd Luftwaffe Air Force fleet, which managed to almost completely paralyze the work of the British base in Malta, took part in the hostilities. Control over part of the communications passed to the Germans.

                  Anticipating the counterargument “this is the same a year after the defeat of France” - I object - within a month the Germans transferred 10 submarines to the Mediterranean Sea. What prevented them from throwing them a year earlier?

                  Did you even read Churchill? He wrote everything. Why didn’t you read it?

                  He wrote a lot of things. What exactly?

                  About the "cowardice of paddles", it is on your conscience. I didn’t say that.

                  True, this was said by the author of this article (A. Neukropny).

                  I talked about the reluctance to fight the leadership of France.

                  And put yourself in their place? You have no escape routes (remember the sea, which even without enemy submarines does not intersect at the click of a finger, and even more so with a million-strong army), there is no time for regrouping. Nowhere to evacuate production facilities to continue the war, as the USSR did. And before you looms a choice. Or, in such circumstances, to give a heroic, but obviously hopeless last battle, thereby embittering the Germans and provoking them into a massacre of civilians. Either obey, bearing national shame, but avoiding massacre among his civilians.

                  You just ask about the number of French troops in Algeria.

                  And they will cross the Mediterranean Sea on foot in a day?
                  1. Bakht Offline
                    Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 13 June 2020 23: 53
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                    You obviously did not read the memoirs of Churchill and de Gaulle. The transfer of troops was possible. And Churchill promised to organize it. She could also be organized by the French fleet. No German submarines were there. The Italians, as the whole course of the war showed, could not be feared. Why Bordeaux was chosen as the capital is also written by de Gaulle. This is directly related to the surrender of France. De Gaulle proposed the Breton Fortress.

                    What prevented the Germans from deploying submarines? The answer is surprisingly simple. They simply were not available.

                    The USSR did not have 9 months. You are clearly not familiar with the story. France has been at war since September 3, 1939. USSR since June 22, 1941. How much time did the USSR have? According to the information that we have, I believe that it was 7-8 days. They simply did not have time to prepare.
                    Back to the Mediterranean Sea. With the complete domination of the British, the Germans in 1942 sent tens of thousands of soldiers and dozens of tanks to Tunisia. Including the Tigers. They probably crossed the Mediterranean Sea on foot.

                    I must admit that you have only one reasonable remark. But this refers to the psychology of cowardly, which were the French leaders. The resistance of the USSR prompted the Germans to massacre the civilian population. France had a choice to save life and surrender. Or fight. This is the point from which to dance. Everything else is far-fetched. The leadership of France at that time was pathetic pygmies who simply gave up. With almost 200 thousand people in North Africa, 150 tanks and 400 aircraft. Almost the entire fleet. Having the opportunity to transfer another 200-300 thousand soldiers and officers within a maximum of a week, they decided to surrender.

                    PS Watch the movie "Normandy Neman." How they imprisoned those heroes who wanted to fight. And the rest were sunbathing on the beach. And as a French officer receives a reward for the downed English plane.
                    1. Cyril Offline
                      Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 00: 49
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                      You obviously did not read the memoirs of Churchill and de Gaulle.

                      Estimate how long the transfer of the 2,5 millionth army was to last? And there, plus the mass evacuation of civilians.

                      What prevented the Germans from deploying submarines? The answer is surprisingly simple. They simply were not available.

                      By the beginning of World War II (1939), the Kriegsmarine had 57 submarines. A few dozen more were put into operation by the French campaign.

                      The USSR did not have 9 months. You are clearly not familiar with the story.

                      Oh, but can we prepare for war only after the attack, is it impossible in advance? And why intelligence?

                      Now look:

                      at the beginning we mention that Stalin was twice informed about the construction of powerful fortifications on the eastern borders of Germany.

                      Firstly, the People's Commissar of Internal Affairs of the USSR Lavrenty Pavlovich Beria still 1 August 1940 year He reported on the received intelligence data, according to which the Germans conducted the construction of field and long-term fortifications on the border with the USSR.

                      Second, the 22 January 1941 yearand Stalin asked V. M. Molotov, N. A. Voznesensky, Beria, K. E. Voroshilov, S. K. Timoshenko, K. A. Meretskov, G. K. Zhukov, B. M. Shaposhnikov, S. M Budyonny, A. A. Zhdanov, A. F. Khrenov (Directorate of Engineering Troops of the Red Army) and G. I. Kulik read the note on the Siegfried Line transmitted to TASS on January 9.

                      Comprehensive information that the leadership of the USSR long before the war received reports of a likely German attack, you can read here:

                      https://rg.ru/2014/06/02/chto-znal-stalin.html

                      This is not anyhow a “liberoid resource”, but a printed organ of the government of the Russian Federation, if that.

                      With the complete domination of the British, the Germans in 1942 sent tens of thousands of soldiers and dozens of tanks to Tunisia. Including the Tigers. They probably crossed the Mediterranean Sea on foot.

                      The Sonnenblum operation to transport 60 soldiers and 000 Wehrmacht tanks from Italy to Libya lasted from February 450 to May 11, 25, for almost 1941 months. And this is only 4 thousand.

                      I must admit that you have only one reasonable remark. But this refers to the psychology of cowardly, which were the French leaders.

                      Under the resistance of the USSR, 25 million Soviet people were killed with a population of 170 million people. This is a demographic disaster, although less than 1/7 of the total population died.

                      The population of France in 1940 amounted to 40 million people. Subtract 25 million from this.

                      You see, blaming cowardice is very, very easy .... when you are not responsible for anything other than your own fifth point.

                      With almost 200 thousand people in North Africa

                      Literally, you rubbed a comment back on me so that I did not flaunt the number of troops)) You really decide.

                      150 tanks and 400 aircraft

                      Oooh, this is soooo much where to go ... As many as 150 French tanks, the newest of which were developed in the mid-30s Although, most likely, the ancient one was based in North Africa. Renov FT-17 any, Bedouins to drive.

                      Having the opportunity to transfer another 200-300 thousand soldiers and officers within a maximum of a week, they decided to surrender.

                      laughing During the Dynamo operation, in order to evacuate 336000 people just through the English Channel, the British, who at that time had one of the most powerful fleets in the world, had to abandon ALL weapons and equipment. Only people were saved.

                      During the operation, more than a quarter of the ships and vessels involved in the evacuation were lost [6] (224 English[3] [26] and about 60 French [3] ships), including 6 [26] [29] destroyers of the English Navy and 3 French Navy. A significant number of ships were damaged [3] (including 19 [29] or 23 [6] ships of the English Navy).

                      And this, damn it, you just needed to translate through a narrow strait !!
                      1. Bakht Offline
                        Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 14 June 2020 08: 50
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                        I repeat, the USSR had only 7-8 days. No data on the concentration of German troops until May-June 1941 were and could not be. Halder in the diary has a schedule for the transfer of troops to the Soviet border.
                        In June 1940, there were no dozens of submarines. Dönitz’s memoirs are also in print. In April 1940, a “torpedo crisis” erupted and the Kriegsmarine practically did not exist. As German submarines fell into the Mediterranean Sea, you can find the memories of the submarine commander. This is not an easy task. Hydrography has not been canceled. And how many boats died crossing Gibraltar. And why Raeder and Dönitz objected to sending boats to the Mediterranean.
                        It was necessary to transfer not 2 million, but only a few combat-ready units. If you don’t know, then the Italian army in Libya was defeated by a couple of English divisions.
                        Are you trying to justify the French surrender? I told you, prove not to me, but to de Gaulle.

                        http://militera.lib.ru/memo/french/gaulle/02.html
                      2. Cyril Offline
                        Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 14: 08
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                        And how many boats died crossing Gibraltar. And why Raeder and Dönitz objected to sending boats to the Mediterranean.

                        Nevertheless, in 1941 in 1 month Germany was able to transfer 10 submarines to the Mediterranean.

                        In April 1940, a “torpedo crisis” erupted and the Kriegsmarine practically did not exist.

                        The torpedo crisis was resolved quickly enough when it was required. The phrase "Kriegsmarine did not exist" has nothing to do with reality.

                        If you don’t know, then the Italian army in Libya was defeated by a couple of English divisions.

                        The Italians in World War II did not shine with special training. With the Germans, the same British in North Africa shed a lot of sweat and blood. And France needed to fight with the Germans.

                        I told you, prove not to me, but to de Gaulle.

                        What should he prove? He himself said everything:

                        Germans so superior to usthat if a miracle does not happen, we have not the slightest hope of victory in the metropolis, nor even of staying in it. In addition, the command paralyzed by suddenness of events, no longer capable of anything.

                        This he reflected the REAL state of affairs.

                        And here is this passage.

                        However, if we lose the 1940 war, we can win another war. Without stopping the struggle in Europe, while it is possible, it is necessary at the same time to decide to continue the war in our overseas possessions and to prepare for it. Such a decision requires an appropriate policy: transfers of necessary funds to North Africaselection of command personnel capable of managing operations, maintaining close ties with the British, ignoring past grievances. I am ready to develop the necessary activities

                        - this is his assumption that he can do it. That's just "transfer the necessary funds to North Africa" ​​at the click of a finger is impossible. Operation Dynamo showed how difficult this is.
                      3. Bakht Offline
                        Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 14 June 2020 16: 17
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                        I will not even read everything that you wrote. I have already said that the discussion is over. When we talked about I. Maske, I quickly turned off the discussion. You didn’t convince me much, but I didn’t want to get into an argument where I’m not strong. Launched a rocket and good. One launch is not a total success. But I did not want to argue. Why should I be dishonored where I am not strong?

                        I can talk with you about submarines and Kriegsmarine in general.
                        I have always been interested in the navy and in particular the war. While still in school, I got hold of a book by Belly and Penzin, "Combat Operations in the Atlantic and the Mediterranean Sea." I read Roskill, Nimitz, Govorov, Gorshkov, German authors.
                        After the Norwegian campaign, the Kriegsmarine did not exist. This is an iron fact. There were no surface ships. In the summer of 1940, the Germans had 6 submarines throughout the Atlantic. There was no question of any transfer of boats to the Mediterranean Sea. The surface fleet was being repaired or lay at the bottom. Transfer of boats to the Mediterranean Sea. Doenitz protested, because he had few boats, and they could not get back. There are two currents in Gibraltar. The Germans lost several boats during the crossing of Gibraltar. There are memoirs of the commander of a German submarine as he marched into the Mediterranean Sea. Only in the surface position due to the surface current at night. He walked with diesels actually turned off. Under water, boats will not overpower the oncoming stream.
                        ----
                        You take too straightforwardly the words about the continuation of the war. Try to predict the situation and read de Gaulle's memoirs. There were enough troops in North Africa. It was about the transfer of several of the most combat-ready tank units. And, most importantly, about moving members of the government to North Africa, deposing Petan and a declaration on the continuation of the war. Then there would be no campaign in the North. Africa. Italy would have been pulled out of the war as early as 1941, Indochina would not have got to the Japanese (and this is rubber and oil). And then France could proudly raise its head to say that she was at war. A hundred French pilots with their aircraft, the third (or fourth) largest fleet in the world, hundreds of tanks of thousands of soldiers on English soil, the Mediterranean Sea is turning into an English puddle, Italy is out of war, the situation in the Far East is completely different. This is all France profiled, like the whole war.
                        De Gaulle did not even offer North. Africa, and England. Therefore, he spoke of the Breton Fortress. It was necessary to keep her a couple of weeks, for the transfer of troops to England.
                  2. Bakht Offline
                    Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 14 June 2020 08: 59
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                    Looked at the link. There is nothing new there and no probable attack is spoken of. The date of the attack was reported several times and was not confirmed. I wrote, the transfer schedule, the REAL transfer, published in Halder's diary. The transfer began in April-May, tank divisions were deployed in early June, reserve divisions until the end of June (after the outbreak of war). The construction of defensive structures in no way indicates the intention to attack. The USSR itself built them. Also, the violation of borders by air does not mean anything. Ask how many times Soviet planes crossed the border. Be very surprised.
                  3. Cyril Offline
                    Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 13: 57
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                    There is nothing new there and no probable attack is spoken of. The date of the attack was reported several times and was not confirmed.

                    Ah, well, this is really a reason to relax and not prepare for a possible attack by a country whose aggressive plans for expansion were obvious, starting in 1938))
                2. Bakht Offline
                  Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 14 June 2020 09: 10
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                  About the submarines. Is this author authoritative enough?

                  At the beginning of the war, we had, as already mentioned, 57 submarines. To this amount during the first year of the war 28 new boats were added. During the same period, 28 boats were lost, as a result of which on September 1, 1940 we had the same 57 submarines as before the war.

                  Of the total, 39 units were in operation. Until July 1940, on average, only 12 submarines were on combat trips at a time. Considering that half the time of any campaign is spent on reaching the operational area and returning back, only 6 submarines took part directly in military operations at a time. They fought a war against Great Britain.

                  http://militera.lib.ru/memo/german/doenitz_k/text.html#t7
                3. Cyril Offline
                  Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 13: 53
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                  Of the total, 39 units were in operation.

                  39 units - it’s not at all the same as “there were no submarines”, right?

                  Plus, there are 18 more left. Here they could well have been sent to Middle-earth, if that were necessary.
                4. Bakht Offline
                  Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 14 June 2020 16: 42
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                  39 was not. It was active only 6. Regarding Kriegsmarine as a whole:

                  In the Norwegian operation, the parties suffered significant losses in ships, but Nazi Germany suffered particularly heavy and irreparable losses. From the attacks of mainly surface ships and submarines, she lost 3 cruisers, 10 destroyers, destroyers, 4 submarines, 11 transports and tankers and 10 auxiliary vessels. Several warships, including both battleships, were damaged. After the operation was completed, 3 cruisers (2 of them light) remained from the large ships of the German fleet. Thus, the German surface fleet received the desired bases for operations in the Atlantic, but had no strength for these actions.
                5. Cyril Offline
                  Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 17: 30
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                  6 is the number of people participating in hostilities at one time.

                  Of the total number of boats in operation, Doenitz said quite definitely:

                  Of the total, 39 units were in operation.
                6. Bakht Offline
                  Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 14 June 2020 17: 47
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                  Americans now have 11 or 13 aircraft carriers. But this does not mean that they can be used. They can use a maximum of 4 at a time.
                  Only part can always be used. In any case, there are no need to talk about any ten submarines. If you curtail all military activities in the Atlantic and send 6 boats to the Mediterranean Sea, then this will end.
                  Operation and combat readiness are completely different things.
                7. Cyril Offline
                  Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 19: 07
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                  Good. I agree that the Kriegsmarine in 1940 in the Mediterranean could not endanger the ships of France and Britain.

                  I am interested in 1 question:

                  How much time do you think it takes to transfer the right amount of troops from North Africa to France?
                8. Bakht Offline
                  Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 14 June 2020 19: 48
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                  Strictly speaking, not at all. All that was needed was a few planes, for the transfer of members of the government, several generals, a group of officers and several dozen tanks with maintenance personnel. Troops in the North. Africa were.
                  Here Irina chided me that I quote the national hero of France. But he painted everything in his telegrams.
                  The troops were in Senegal, Syria, Indochina. The fleet was based on England, Alexandria, Mers el Kebir and Casablanca.
                9. Bakht Offline
                  Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 14 June 2020 19: 56
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                  General de Gaulle's appeal to the French
                  18 1940 June

                  Believe me, for I know what I'm talking about: for France, nothing is lost. We will be able to win in the future by the same means that caused us defeat.

                  For France is not alone! She is not alone! She is not alone! Behind her is a vast empire. She can unite with the British Empire, which dominates the seas and continues to struggle. She, like England, can unlimitedly use the powerful industry of the United States.

                  This war is not limited to the long-suffering territory of our country. The outcome of this war is not decided by the battle for France. This is a world war. Despite all the mistakes, procrastination, suffering, there are enough means in the world to one day defeat our enemies. And although we are now suppressed by mechanized forces, in the future we will be able to win with superior mechanized forces. The fate of the world will depend on this.

                  In fact, the personality of Paul Reynaud was quite suitable for the continuation of the war with the existence of a certain order in the state and on the basis of traditions established in the process of historical development of France. But everything was swept away. The head of government saw how the state was falling apart, how panic seized the people, how the allies renounced and the most outstanding leaders lost their spirit. From the day the government left the capital, state power was in a state of agony, which was expressed in disorderly running on roads, in the disorder of all rear services, in violation of discipline in all areas of life and in general confusion. In such circumstances, the mind of Paul Reynaud, his courage, his authority were wasted. He could no longer cope with the stormy avalanche of events.

                  In order to again take the reins of government into his own hands, he needed to break out of the maelstrom, move to Africa and start there all over again. Paul Raynaud understood this. But for this it was necessary to take a series of emergency measures: change the main command, remove Marshal Peten and a good half of the ministers, put an end to some influences, reconcile with the full occupation of Francein short, in this unprecedentedly difficult situation, to take a series of extraordinary and beyond the usual framework measures.
                10. Cyril Offline
                  Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 20: 07
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                  All that was needed was a few planes, for the transfer of members of the government, several generals, a group of officers and several dozen tanks with maintenance personnel

                  But what about the population of the metropolis? Ok, the government and military leadership are evacuating. What to do with the population? And what will the Germans do with him while the troops are being transferred from North Africa (and especially from Indochina) back to Europe? I hope you understand that you can’t manage with “several airplanes” here, and will you need more time?

                  And what to do with military production in the metropolis? In the colonies were factories producing at least spare parts and shells for tanks, artillery, aircraft?

                  Here Irina chided me that I quote the national hero of France.

                  The status of the national hero of France does not make every statement, opinion and suggestion of de Gaulle the ultimate truth. He, of course, is authority, but authority can be wrong. Philippe Peten in World War I, as far as he was a valiant and skillful military leader - but this did not help him not to make a mistake in World War II.
                11. Bakht Offline
                  Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 14 June 2020 20: 25
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                  What kind of warrior was Pétain, we can discuss later. The fact that he rested in Verdun does not make him a great commander. But this is a completely different topic.

                  You again care about the civilian population. Hitler will not do anything with them. They will go to work, riveting for Hitler planes and trucks, tanks and guns. In any war, the fate of the civilian population is unenviable. Vae Victis is still the ancient Gauls knew. And these are the ancestors of the French. There was no need to lose the war. If the French government was so worried about its citizens, it was not necessary to declare war on Germany on September 3. Or make peace in October 1939.
                  The supply of troops in Africa and in the colonies could be adjusted. Both England and the United States did not refuse to help France. True, Roosevelt was constrained in the means, but Churchill promised any materials located in the Middle East.
                12. Cyril Offline
                  Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 22: 34
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                  You again care about the civilian population

                  In fact, this is precisely the task of any government.

                  Hitler will not do anything with them.

                  15 million dead peacekeepers in the USSR disagree with you.

                  They will go to work, riveting for Hitler planes and trucks, tanks and guns.

                  Of course. But they can do this in a relatively calm environment, or they can do it like eastern prisoners of war, dying in bundles of slave labor, disease, and inhuman treatment.

                  In any war, the fate of the civilian population is unenviable.

                  Let's make it even more unenviable, right?

                  The supply of troops in Africa and in the colonies could be adjusted.

                  How long would it take?

                  The fact that he rested in Verdun does not make him a great commander.

                  His authority after World War I in France was very high, as was de Gaulle's after World War II. You appealed to the status of a national hero, not me.
                13. Bakht Offline
                  Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 14 June 2020 23: 01
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                  Your point of view does not coincide with mine. In the USSR, a war of extermination was waged. There was no such war in France. So nothing terrible would happen to them. Well, they lost their homeland. Hitler did not have the task of destroying the French. Read how the Germans fought with the British. Just gentlemen. Also with the French. In the USSR there was a war of extermination. So, nothing terrible would happen to them.
                  Supply in Africa had to be established for a couple of months. To defeat the army of Graziani and all. After the defeat in the winter of 1941, Italian prisoners were considered not thousands, but acres. Churchill's stupidity did not allow to end the campaign immediately.
                  -----
                  France could continue the war relying on its colonies. True, there are many nuances. And they are not related to the suffering of the civilian population. There are alternative solutions to the problem. Guderian and Raeder insistently asked Hitler to continue the offensive to the South, to occupy all of France and transfer the fighting to Malta and Gibraltar. Who knows, resist North France and Hitler would go to Africa. And then the USSR would receive a year of deferment. But these are all alternatives.
                  Hitler tried to follow this path. And then he said many times that negotiations with Franco and Mussolini were his biggest disappointment.
                  ----
                  Yes, Peten’s authority was high. I do not argue. But I did not specifically study his biography. I know that he stubbornly defended Verdun. I don’t know about his other exploits. What kind of politician he was at all no information. But at 82, take on such responsibility ....
                  -----
                  In any case, the fact of defeat is not a crime. This is a misfortune. And the signing of surrender, too. But giving up when there is a possibility of resistance is another thing entirely. And hiding behind the concern for civilians does not justify surrender. Then there was no need to get involved in a fight. By this logic, it was impossible to organize a partisan movement.

                  Colonel-General Lothar Rendulich "Partisan War and International Law" (fought in Yugoslavia, the USSR, in the Balkans). At the trial, he was charged with executions of hostages by his troops and the tactics of “scorched earth”

                  The French partisans in their struggle used the same methods as the partisans in the Balkans and in Russia. And in terms of their cruelty, they almost did not concede to each other.
                  ------
                  Even if we manage to achieve some specific results by exploring this issue, we still have to do a lot more in order to finally bring complete clarity to the legal norms of guerrilla warfare on an international scale. Confusion here can only increase confusion. At the same time, one thing should be remembered first of all: the legal ambiguity of this, albeit regrettable, but the completely inevitable new type of popular struggle especially greatly increases the suffering of the civilian population. In the event of war, the population will be crushed by two warring groups: partisans, on the one hand, and regular troops, on the other. We will all find ourselves in the position of an ostrich, seeking salvation under our wing, if we do not together take the most serious measures to limit the forms of guerrilla warfare, and not on the basis of some abstract theory, but on the concrete experience of the past war.
                14. Bakht Offline
                  Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 14 June 2020 23: 38
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                  A small digression from the topic. Guderian's opinion:

                  I did not like the truce just concluded under the jubilation of the German people and to Hitler's satisfaction. After the complete victory of German weapons won over France, we could conclude another peace treaty. It was possible to demand the complete disarmament of France, the complete occupation of the country, the renunciation of the navy and colonies. But it was also possible to take a different path, a path of mutual understanding, inviting the French to maintain the integrity of their country, their colonies and their national independence for the sake of a quick peace with England.
                  -------
                  At that time, I saw the most effective way to quickly establish peace by immediately continuing our offensive towards the mouth of the Rhone, so that, after mastering the French ports on the Mediterranean Sea, in cooperation with Italians, land airborne assault forces in Africa and on Fr. Malta. If the French join us, so much the better. If not, we and Italians alone must continue the war without delay. It is known how weak the British were in Egypt at that time. Large Italian forces were still in Abyssinia. Malta's air defense was weak. It seemed to me that everything speaks for the continuation of our operations in this direction. All is for, nothing is against. It was necessary to quickly transfer four or six armored divisions to Africa and create overwhelming superiority in forces there before the British had time to transport reinforcements. The results of the landing of German-Italian landing in North Africa in 1940 would be much more favorable for us than in 1941, after the first defeat of the Italians.

                  It is entirely possible that Hitler's distrust of the Italians kept him from moving the war to Africa. But it is even more likely that Hitler, being a prisoner of purely continental views, did not understand the decisive importance for the British region of the Mediterranean Sea.

                  Be that as it may, I heard nothing more about my proposals and only in 1950 did I learn that General Ritter von Epp had nevertheless found it possible to communicate them to Hitler. According to Captain 1st Rank Wenig, accompanying Epp, Hitler refused to speak on the merits of these proposals.

                  In fairness, in the book of Manstein these plans underwent a thorough analysis and Manstein did not leave stone unturned from them.
                  ----
                  Guderian decided to repeat the words of Pontius Guerinius :-) Not a ride, like 2000 years ago.
  • Tramp1812 Offline
    Tramp1812 (Tramp 1812) 14 June 2020 01: 42
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    You, like Porthos, have already started talking about France: "I fight because I fight!" Would you like to discuss? Please. The comparison of resistance in the USSR and France is not entirely convincing. For the following reasons:
    1. Germany, through the fault of Stalin, caught the USSR by surprise. Blitzkrieg was a success. Hence the scale of the conquered territories, and the casualties in the initial period of the war. Plus, mass repressions on the eve of the war in the ranks of the Red Army. The "strange war" lasted from September 03, 1939 right up to May 1940. Two opposing armies stood opposite each other in full combat readiness. Blitzkrieg didn't smell. Nevertheless, six weeks was enough to conquer all of France, I recall - the largest and most developed country in Europe at that time.
    2. The hero of the 1st World War, Marshal Patin led the pro-German government of France in Vichy. And France sat silently throughout the war, like a mouse under a broom.
    3. The scale of the partisan movement, such as, say, in Yugoslavia, or Belarus, Russia, Ukraine, France, was not close.
    4. The Germans behaved in a completely different way towards occupied France than in the USSR, because the French essentially did not resist. There were no Einsatzgruppes, there were no mass repressions. The same war veteran and world famous writer Irwin Shaw wrote on behalf of one of the heroes of the bestselling book Young Lions, comparing the scope of the Reich’s repressions in France and the USSR: “You were in France and you know nothing. And I was in Russia. We led himself there, like a mad fox, climbed into a chicken coop. "The Jews of France surrendered to Germany very calmly. Let not with enthusiasm, like, say, Slovaks and Croats, but without any resistance and emotions. In Yad Vashem, there are fewer French righteous people of the world than Poles. I'm not talking about the fact that the position taken on the issue of extradition by Finland, Denmark, Bulgaria, Albania, France did not closely demonstrate. If this is not cowardice and humility, then what?
    Therefore, Israel honors the contribution of the USSR to the victory over Germany. The British fought heroically, the Americans in the Pacific and Europe. And the French joined the victory, and they themselves let the war into their home.
    1. Cyril Offline
      Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 02: 57
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      For the following reasons:
      1. Germany, through the fault of Stalin, caught the USSR by surprise. Blitzkrieg was a success. Hence the scale of the conquered territories, and the casualties in the initial period of the war.

      Stalin was informed of the military preparations of the Germans on the border with the USSR in 1940.
      In addition, the surrender of France is also very logically justified precisely by the unpreparedness of the military leadership for the new tactics of war that Germany applied. The strategic miscalculations of the command led to the situation at the front reaching a hopeless situation when there was no sense in fighting anymore.

      Nevertheless, six weeks was enough to conquer all of France, I recall - the largest and most developed country in Europe at that time.

      The armed forces of France were technically inferior to the German. And most importantly, the thinking of the French generals was inferior, which based its strategy on the experience of the First World War, while the military thinking of the new German generals stepped forward.

      Blitzkrieg and didn't smell

      That's it. During the Strange War, they did not smell. And when the Germans used it already in 1940, the French generals were not ready for it.

      The hero of World War I, Marshal Patin, led the pro-German government of France in Vichy. And France sat silently throughout the war, like a mouse under a broom.
      3. The scale of the partisan movement, such as, say, in Yugoslavia, or Belarus, Russia, Ukraine, France, was not close.

      Because there would be no sense from him, but mass repressions of Germans against the peaceful people would be the maximum.

      The Germans behaved quite differently towards occupied France than they did in the USSR, because the French essentially did not resist. There were no Einsatzgruppes, there were no mass repressions.

      That's it. France was not faced with the dilemma of "fighting or dying." The Germans did not threaten to cut them out as a lower race, like the Slavs. But they began partisanism - mass casualties could not be avoided.

      Jews France surrendered to Germany very calmly.

      Forgive me, of course, but when you (in the sense of the French government) have a choice - not to extradite Jews and thereby expose the main part of the population (French) to Einsatz groups or extradite Jews, but to save the main population from millions of victims - the second the option is not easy, but rational.

      If this is not cowardice and humility, then what?

      This is a national survival. Estimate if 25 million people were massacred in France, as in the USSR? In France, with a population of 40 million at that time.

      Therefore, Israel honors the contribution of the USSR to the victory over Germany. The British fought heroically, the Americans in the Pacific and Europe.

      Britain had strong protection in the form of an island location. The United States generally was far beyond the ocean. In the USSR, the territory occupies the entire continent. All these countries had options where to retreat, rest, regroup in order to strike back. France did not have such an option. The territory is small, nothing separates from Germany, there is no place to evacuate (we don’t take into account funny options with supposedly emergency evacuation to Algeria via the Mediterranean Sea). France also could not count on allies - Britain had a lot of problems for itself, the USSR generally at that time was harassing tricks with Germany, the United States did not enter the war at that time, and they were far away.

      I am not saying that France is a hero. Surrender is always surrender. But sometimes this is the only right choice.
      1. 321 Offline
        321 (321) 14 June 2020 10: 43
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        Cyril, I do not care what Alexandrov wrote.

        Yes, I know that you do not care about research, but they put you in an awkward position.

        It is true that they do not care about such very one-sided and even biased studies, they do NOT contribute to the establishment of truth, but are carried out with completely different goals. - for example, the neighbors at VO did not have an article about Lend-Lease recently, so its author claimed that “every second ...” the projectile was from what they brought in LL - a little later it turned out that a candidate of historical sciences Shpakovsky V. either did not even make friends with arithmetic since school, or simply forgot it - only it turned out that in fact every third - BUT the catchy heading had already gone to the masses, to process the brains of ordinary people, so to speak ...
        This is the true goal of such “research” - the gradual and imperceptible reformatting of the average person’s consciousness.

        Do you think the UPA’s 400th army is collaborative? Yes or no?

        Partly yes.

        A good example of your "logic" is "a little pregnant."

        On research Russophobe Alexandrova, whose identity we have already discussed - I did not care.

        The fact of the matter is that data needs to be discussed, not personality. The argument to the personality in logic is considered either a method of demagogy or a logical mistake ...

        The person also matters, the same Alexandrov whom you brought has a very peculiar reputation in the community ...

        Opinion of the Russophobe enemy intentionally distorting historical facts

        You did not give any facts proving these distortions ...

        Didn’t you bring a little list there, and in it is someone Drobyazko? bully
        We look at the book of that same author, p. 196, and what do we read about quantity there?
        “800 to 000 Soviet citizens passed ...” (c)
        Somehow your author had slightly different numbers, no?
        And another uncle wrote on this subject, but about him later ...

        First of all, it is a person.

        That is, you directly admit that you do not care about the principles of an unbiased and logical discussion? ...

        This is nothing more than your idea of ​​a discussion that has nothing to do with reality ...

        Therefore, the essence of the publication is difficult to argue.

        True, the author, pointing to the "shameful" surrender of France to the Germans, for some reason missed the fact that in the first years of the Second World War, Germany occupied the USSR territory equal to 2 territories of France.
        Well, that is, the French are “shameful cowards,” since surrendered Germans their country, and the Soviet leadership - valiant fighters, although surrendered a piece of territory is 2 times larger. Some kind of double standards.

        I won’t even write about the fact that you DO NOT even know the basics of knowledge in this area - but I don’t even know the difference between surrender, surrender, conquest, capture, occupation? I don’t even remember about more specific terms - why? You don’t know them anyway ...
        Where have you been taught?

        What is mobilization, operational density, initiative, you do not know. The USSR had no chance of winning the Border Battle.

        Ah, that is defeat of the USSR at the early stage of the war we explain the problems with “mobilization, operational density and initiative”, and defeat of France - "cowardice of shameful paddling pools."
        Indeed, well, what are the double standards))

        Mobilization opportunities, economic potential and so on are also implicit. Germany had an advantage.

        Plus, Germany fought a war on 2 fronts, the USSR - no. The fact that the USSR’s natural resources are enough for dozens of Reichs and its allies, I will not mention, so be it. And this does not include Lend-Lease ....

        Your numbers about the number of tanks and other iron are NOT interesting at all, at first you should at least learn the basics of military sciences - tactics, operational art, strategies, here’s how to learn - then we'll talk ...
        It’s time to distinguish the difference between defeats and surrender at your age ...
        And about the war on two fronts - WHO MADE GERMANY ATTACK THE USSR? WOULD NOT attack - WOULD NOT be a war on two fronts ...

        PS I can’t pretend to say that there was not a single settlement on the territory of the USSR that could not be defended — the conditional village of Nizhnekhatsapetovka might not have been defended, and even larger cities — to Oryol, God forbid, the Germans entered, there were even trams there But BUT these were more likely exceptions, evidence of this you can easily find in the memoirs of German generals - if you wish, but here Paris without a single shot - well, for you and people like you, this is apparently normal ...
        Surrender is your choice!
        1. Bakht Offline
          Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 14 June 2020 11: 51
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          I personally finished the discussion. Just to put an end to the topic of collaborators.
          Yes, Soviet citizens served in the Wehrmacht. The numbers vary. From 800 to 000 million. I can even add about unaccounted for. About 1,5 were burgomasteres, policemen, and just scum.
          But there is a slight difference. The topic of collaboration in the USSR began to be investigated, starting in the 80s. So, the overwhelming majority went to khivi, having before them a simple choice - death in a concentration camp or the life of a traitor. I don’t know what choice any of us would personally make. I am including. But comparing the FORCED and VOLUNTARY principle is the height of stupidity and ignorance.
          Once again for the ignoramus. The French, Belgians and others went to the SS and the Wehrmacht VOLUNTARY. The vast majority of the Soviets were FORCED under the threat of destruction.
          -----
          PS Read the memories of war veterans. For the first time I saw this in an interview with Bogomolov (the very one who wrote The Moment of Truth). Then he found a few more confirmations.
          If the Germans and even the SS sheep had a chance to be captured, then the Vlasovites had no such chance. They were shot on the spot, in spite of any orders. And the command did not really condemn such executions. That is, those who shed blood liberating their homeland knew perfectly well what they were. Will have to give a quote:

          I was in “foreign territory” in Germany in 1945, and I must testify that if Germans, including SS men, identified by the blood type tattooed under their armpits, were usually taken prisoner (the number of prisoners was an indicator of the combat activity of units and connections), then the Vlasovites, if they did not have time to protect them as information carriers, were most often subjected to “extrajudicial reprisal”. The fate of even those who were just mistaken for military personnel of the ROA turned out to be tragic.
          1. 321 Offline
            321 (321) 14 June 2020 11: 54
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            Quote: Bakht
            I personally finished the discussion. Just to put an end to the topic of collaborators ...

            I agree with almost everything you have expressed ...
            1. Bakht Offline
              Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 14 June 2020 11: 58
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              Addition.

              The recruitment of soldiers and officers in the ROA was carried out in various ways. One of them was described in detail by the participant of the Great Patriotic War N.I. Vasiliev: “It was a clear outline. People were kept at the limit of physical and moral destruction. Therefore, many signed up for special work. Having signed up for special work, the prisoner of war recovered, was full. After some time, they began to be freed from the convoy if they changed the form of prisoners of war to the form of ROA. After 2-3 months, they were lined up and offered to join the ROA, and those who refused were publicly shot. But many entered with the idea of ​​fleeing to their homeland. "

              I think that the topic has exhausted itself.
              1. Cyril Offline
                Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 12: 53
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                After 2-3 months, they were lined up and offered to join the ROA, and those who refused were publicly shot.

                And the same would be with the French if they refused to cooperate.

                Again. Britain and the USSR had the opportunity to retreat, evacuate factories, troops in order to regroup, gather strength and blow the otter. France did not have such an opportunity. About mass evacuation to Algeria, please, do not - I have shown on the example of Dynamo what mass evacuation through a narrow strait is.
          2. Cyril Offline
            Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 12: 50
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            So, the overwhelming majority went to khivi, having before them a simple choice - death in a concentration camp or the life of a traitor.

            And exactly the same choice would be faced by France. The only difference is that Hitler began to massively cut off the population of the USSR immediately, without trying to flirt with the Slavs in a good daddy, as he did with France.

            Try France to resist - there would be the same multimillion-dollar loss.

            Of course, among the French collaborators there were also those who went to cooperation voluntarily, out of their own ideological motives. But most simply tried to survive.

            If the Germans and even the SS sheep had a chance to be captured, then the Vlasovites had no such chance. They were shot on the spot, in spite of any orders.

            This is not an indicator of anything at all. In the USSR, and simply returned from captivity, also in large numbers to the camps then were exiled.
        2. Cyril Offline
          Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 12: 41
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          Only emotions, no specifics according to the data I have provided. Go ahead.
          1. 321 Offline
            321 (321) 14 June 2020 12: 50
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            Quote: Cyril
            Only emotions, no specifics according to the data I have given. Go ahead.

            Only after you, we are polite, and we will skip forward the lady forever!

            And discuss your "data" with Alexandrov - and have you already studied Dante? bully hi
            1. Cyril Offline
              Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 13: 11
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              and Dante already studied?

              Why should I study it? To decipher your stupid metaphors?
              1. 321 Offline
                321 (321) 14 June 2020 13: 21
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                Do not study, your education is somehow uninteresting to me, and the rest about you is also not too much - you have a minimum of knowledge, but self-conceit - learn materiel, about reserves, and so on, while you DO NOT set off ...
                1. Cyril Offline
                  Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 13: 49
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                  don’t study, your education is somehow uninteresting to me, and the rest about you is also not too much - you have a minimum of knowledge, but self-conceit - learn materiel, about reserves, and so on, while you DO NOT set off ...

                  Again a meaningless phrase.
                  1. 321 Offline
                    321 (321) 14 June 2020 14: 14
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                    Well, who is to blame for you that it does not mean anything to you?
                    Teach the materiel, so far, it’s very good that you weren’t in those days preparing to repulse the German attack, but the attack would have happened much earlier, and it’s quite possible that legally - you would have piled up there. negative hi
                  2. Cyril Offline
                    Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 14: 48
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                    Well, who is to blame for you that it does not mean anything to you?

                    You, of course. You said a meaningless phrase.

                    Teach materiel

                    Favorite phrase of those who are not able to give a detailed counterargument in the case.

                    that at that time you wouldn’t have been preparing to repulse the German attack, otherwise the attack would have happened much earlier, and it’s quite possible that legally, you would have piled up there.

                    The argument to the person is soooo cute.
                  3. 321 Offline
                    321 (321) 14 June 2020 15: 19
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                    It has already been written to you here - until the morning, do not answer in essence, answer you, but this is beyond your strength, here you are in balabolism and hit ... negative hi
                  4. Cyril Offline
                    Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 15: 21
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                    Are you talking about your opus in which not a single fact, not a single logical argument is just a bunch of incoherent emotions and attempts at moralizing? Yes, I cannot answer this.
                  5. 321 Offline
                    321 (321) 14 June 2020 15: 55
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                    Quote: Cyril
                    Are you talking about your opus in which not a single fact, not a single logical argument is just a bunch of incoherent emotions and attempts at moralizing? Yes, I cannot answer this.

                    If you are not able to understand what has been said to you, I can sympathize with you, there is nothing to help, and there is no desire — whether you wrote yesterday — that you need to bring the data of another candidate of historical sciences, that’s what they brought to you — so your inability to understand or understand what was written to you - your problems, and about your attempts to prove that you need to discuss only data, but the personality is not important - who is to blame that you studied poorly, about the role of the personality in history oh how it was NOT written yesterday, but for some reason it passed you - it it’s definitely not my problem, deign to lie in numbers, albeit through the mouth of that very “historian” ...
                    And I am not interested in listening to your “logic” or convincing you — why should you?
                    And about moralizing - you, a fan of surrender, even try to re-educate? And why do I need such "happiness" - but those who read all this, let them draw their conclusions - and have already done it. hi
              2. The comment was deleted.
              3. Cyril Offline
                Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 18: 54
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                Have 321? They hurt, probably better take an interest in him.
              4. 321 Offline
                321 (321) 14 June 2020 20: 08
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                They asked someone? "Logic" you, though not ours? bully So do not translate the arrows ...
              5. Cyril Offline
                Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 20: 13
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                They asked whom? Me. They asked about whom? The question is not specified.
              6. 321 Offline
                321 (321) 14 June 2020 20: 18
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                It’s not for you to judge what someone else is saying or writing - so write either on your own behalf or on your own - there’s nothing to try to portray even mass character here.
  • Bakht Offline
    Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 14 June 2020 12: 56
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    Learn the specifics. Kill these "experts." They are given data from eyewitnesses and participants. And for them it’s not specific ...
    Number of submarines already found out? Or do you think that Doenitz did not know how many submarines he had? You know better. Only after that it was possible to discuss nothing with you.
    We have finished the discussion. I just want you to figure it out. You need to know the subject of the dispute. Do not know - do not write nonsense here.
    1. Cyril Offline
      Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 13: 10
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      Number of submarines already found out?

      Kriegsmarine had 57 submarines in 1939. A year before the attack on France. In 1940 there were even more of them. I already wrote this to you. Or do you have "false blindness"?

      They are given data from eyewitnesses and participants.

      The only thing you cited as evidence is de Gaulle's appeals and memoirs. He could call and remember anything, but that was not necessarily feasible. In the USSR, too, some were confident in the "war on foreign territory and little blood" - we know what this led to.

      I gave you a concrete example of how the operation to evacuate the Anglo-French troops through the narrow English Channel was carried out and how it ended. What both Britain and France had to sacrifice to simply transport people across a narrow strait. If you believe that transporting a much larger army through such a frail sea to Algeria (or vice versa - from it) is easier than through a narrow strait - I do not have problems with logic.
      1. isofat Offline
        isofat (Sergei) 14 June 2020 14: 35
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        Quote: Bakht
        We have finished the discussion.

        Cyril. With you finished, a pervert of logic. Can’t you even understand this?
        1. Cyril Offline
          Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 14: 46
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          Can’t you even understand this?

          I respond to comments from my opponent. If he "finished" with me - he may not answer. If you answer - your concern for him is unnecessary.
          1. isofat Offline
            isofat (Sergei) 14 June 2020 14: 54
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            Cyril, here I am about the same. You do not understand the words. smile
          2. Cyril Offline
            Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 15: 00
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            You do not understand the words.

            Your incoherent comments - yes, I do not understand.
  • shadow Offline
    shadow 14 June 2020 18: 17
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    Do not stop a person from practicing a training manual. For this training manual, 250 thousand greens are given.
  • Bakht Offline
    Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 13 June 2020 22: 10
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    Most of the comments are for some reason devoted to Russian collaborators. We can say traitors to the motherland. But for some reason, the comments do not indicate that approximately 20-25 million Soviet citizens fought against Hitler. In total, about 30 million people were mobilized.
    But the article is about something completely different.
    France was not going to fight Hitler. The French threw a white flag and surrendered their country. An alternative was the withdrawal of the fleet in the North. Africa, the evacuation of a dozen divisions, aircraft, the defeat of the Italians in Libya, and no one would have heard of any Rommel. At the same time, the French bravely fought against the British in North Africa in November 1942, sending volunteers on the side of Hitler. In 1940, the French government made its choice and there was no resistance. There was a handful of Frenchmen who continued the war. This handful does not make a big picture.
  • gorenina91 Offline
    gorenina91 (Irina) 14 June 2020 05: 52
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    - I didn’t want to interfere; but when you read ...- what nonsense here ... here ... here someone "Bakht (Bakhtiyar)" carries ... then it simply takes surprise ...- why does it support him here ?????
    - Well, it’s necessary to invent such a thing ...- about the evacuation of the French troops in ... to Algeria ...
    - Yes, of course ...- it would be possible to evacuate all of France to ... Algeria ... - all of France could easily settle in Algeria .... - And even better ...- somewhere overseas. .. - Ask Canada for a place for France (there also exists a French "state status") ...
    - Yes, “courageous France” couldn’t even “evacuate” its rather powerful navy ... - just didn’t know where to put it ...
    - Well, it could have been much easier to do ... - Well, at least drive your French Navy to the same Canada mentioned ... or in the USA ... or Brazil, Argentina ... or ... to Russia ... or ...- to the moon ... - And England would not have to arrange a “French Pearl Harbor” ...- to bomb the French Navy so that the Germans would not get it ...
    - It’s just that France really wasn’t determined to fight with Germany .... -There wasn’t "Get up, the country is huge" ... - Even in WWII, France had the cry "Get up, the country is huge" ... - that's why the French military leaders could to command and lead the army of France ... and to repulse Kaiser Germany ... - But in WWII France didn’t have such a thing ... - so France was blown away ... surrendered to the Germans ... - and gave them their weapons too , and its independence, and its territory, and its women, and everything that could ...
    1. Bakht Offline
      Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 14 June 2020 09: 16
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      Irina, do not try to look dumber than you really are. I have already cited references to de Gaulle's memoirs. Apparently, he also carried "nonsense."
      Here they are trying to prove that giving up is the best option. Well, give up. Throw away the white flag and obey the dictates of the United States. After all, civilians are suffering from sanctions. Why are these victims?

      You regularly carry nonsense here.
  • Bakht Offline
    Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 14 June 2020 09: 30
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    General de Gaulle's appeal on London radio
    19 1940 June

    At the moment we are experiencing, all French people understand that the usual forms of power have ceased to exist.

    In the face of confusion over the French, the liquidation of the government, which has become a servant of the enemy, and in view of the impossibility of restoring the functioning of our institutions, I, General de Gaulle, French soldier and commander, speak with full awareness of duty on behalf of France.

    On behalf of France, I firmly declare the following: the absolute duty of all the French who still bear arms is to continue the resistance.

    The surrender of arms, abandonment of the front sector, consent to the transfer of any part of the French land to the control of the enemy will be a crime against the motherland.

    At the moment, I say, primarily referring to French North Africa, not captured by the enemy.


    The ceasefire with Italy is nothing more than a crudely set up trap.

    In Africa, Clozell, Bujo, Lyote, Noges, the direct duty of all honest people is to refuse to fulfill the enemy’s conditions.

    You can not tolerate the panic that swept Bordeaux, spread over the sea.

    Soldiers of France, wherever you are, rise to the fight!
    1. Bakht Offline
      Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 14 June 2020 09: 32
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      Letter from General de Gaulle to General Weygand
      London, June 20, 1940

      General!

      I received your order to return to France and immediately began to seek the means to fulfill it, for I, of course, have no other intention than to serve, fighting the enemy.

      I expect to be at your disposal within XNUMX hours if no surrender is signed during this time.

      In the event that it is signed, I will join any French resistance movement, wherever it occurs. In particular, there are already (and will undoubtedly be arriving in London) military personnel determined to fight no matter what happens in the metropolis.

      I consider it my duty to tell you directly: I would like both in the interests of France and yours personally, General, so that you can avoid disaster, achieve the overseas possessions of France and continue the war. Now a truce compatible with honor is impossible.

      I add that my personal relations with the British government and, in particular, with Mr. Churchill give me the opportunity to be of service to you and any French leader who would like to head the permanent French Resistance movement.

      I ask you, General, to accept the assurances of my deepest respect and devotion.
      1. Bakht Offline
        Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 14 June 2020 09: 34
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        Communique published by the UK government
        25 1940 June

        “By signing a truce, the French government put an end to the organized resistance of the French troops in the metropolis. However, encouraging information is coming from the French colonial empire that more courageous moods prevail there.

        In Syria, the French commander in chief General Mittelhauser announced the desire of the French troops to fight. In Indochina, the Governor-General announced that he would not bow a banner. In Tunisia, the resident general firmly decided to continue the fight. From the military or civilian authorities of Morocco, Senegal, Cameroon, Djibouti, we received assurances of their loyal support.

        The UK government is ready to conclude the necessary financial agreements to help the French colonial empire fulfill its duty. As already stated by the British Prime Minister, the goal of Great Britain is to fully restore the territory of France and its colonies. ”
        1. Bakht Offline
          Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 14 June 2020 09: 40
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          I refuse to discuss the stupid things that history dropouts write here. Also free of honor and the concept of homeland. Argue with de Gaulle.

          They probably also had to give up. It is clear that they will perish.

  • Bakht Offline
    Bakht (Bakhtiyar) 14 June 2020 09: 58
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    April 4 1941 years
    Calculation of time: If it will be possible to use the railway through Presov, then by 20.5 seventeen infantry divisions and thirteen corps departments can be transferred to the East, and then up to 1.6 nine divisions of the 4th echelon (accelerated railroad traffic schedule). And finally, by 23.6, the deployment of twenty-four mobile units and five corps headquarters is possible.
    ------
    April 7 1941 years
    Conversation with Jodl (OKV) about Russia's unclear position. Should a schedule for accelerated rail traffic be introduced? After making the decision, the Führer received a negative answer. But all defensive measures can now be carried out openly.
    -----
    April 30, 1941 (Wednesday)
    The situation in the morning: Reports from Libya indicate that the situation is discharging. Tonight will begin a preliminary attack on Tobruk. The main forces will begin the assault 1.5. The English forces completely abandoned the Peloponnese. 5 British were captured. The capture of the island of Mytilene is scheduled for 4.5.

    Short meeting with the commander in chief: Question of Zalmouth, Greifenberg and Forche.

    15.00 - Report from the Führer [reports chief of the General Staff of the Army]:

    1. Dates of preparations for Operation Barbarossa: 3rd echelon of troops - peacetime railway traffic - 8.4–20.5.

    17 divisions and parts of the OKH reserve from Germany and from the West. 4th (a) echelon of troops - an accelerated schedule of railway traffic - 20,5–2.6.

    9 divisions and parts of the OKH reserve from the West.

    4th (b) echelon of troops - accelerated schedule of railway traffic - 3–23.6.

    12 tank and 12 motorized divisions from Germany - from the West to the Southeast.

    Acceleration of the transfer is impossible for technical reasons and due to the need to complete the retrofit. Two tank divisions (2nd and 5th) and one motorized division (60th) will not be able to arrive on time.

    The question is, how could Stalin receive data on the German attack before April 1941?
    1. Cyril Offline
      Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 12: 58
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      The question is, how could Stalin receive data on the German attack before April 1941?

      I gave you a whole link to how Stalin received reports of an impending attack. There was a lot of information about the military preparations of the Germans.
      1. 321 Offline
        321 (321) 14 June 2020 13: 11
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        Quote: Cyril
        The question is, how could Stalin receive data on the German attack before April 1941?

        I gave you a whole link to how Stalin received reports of an impending attack. There was a lot of information about the military preparations of the Germans.

        Take the trouble to learn the materiel first - what can be done if the countries are already at war, and what can’t be done while this has NOT happened yet - are you tired of exposing yourself in an unsightly light? hi
        1. Cyril Offline
          Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 13: 14
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          what can be done when countries are already at war, and what can’t be done before this has happened

          What reorganize the army and pull up additional reserves to the border, faith did not allow the Soviet leadership?

          aren't you tired of exposing yourself in an unsightly light here?

          I do not exhibit.
          1. 321 Offline
            321 (321) 14 June 2020 13: 26
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            Quote: Cyril
            .... What, to reorganize the army and pull up additional reserves to the border, faith did not allow the Soviet leadership? ....

            Teach the materiel, I’m not going to educate you, and don’t dream ... hi

            Quote: Cyril
            ... I do not expose.

            This is nothing more than your illusion - exhibit, already exhibited and repeatedly. bully
            1. Cyril Offline
              Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 13: 48
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              Teach materiel

              A meaningless phrase.

              I'm not going to form you

              A meaningless phrase.

              This is nothing more than your illusion.

              A meaningless phrase.

              Question - why so many meaningless phrases?
              1. 321 Offline
                321 (321) 14 June 2020 13: 52
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                Quote: Cyril
                ... Question - why are there so many meaningless phrases?

                You will be one of the last with whom I will consult what to write, how to write and when to write ... bully
                1. Cyril Offline
                  Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 14: 49
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                  So I do not advise. I just asked - why write meaningless phrases?
                  1. 321 Offline
                    321 (321) 14 June 2020 15: 17
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                    Already wrote - that they are not meaningful to you, these are definitely not my problems - I don’t want to put knowledge into your head and I won’t, and I won’t, but it’s without knowledge that you’re not able to understand ...
                    1. Cyril Offline
                      Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 18: 55
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                      that they are not meaningful to you, these are definitely not my problems

                      Yours. For phrases to mean something, they need to be filled with content. You have no content.
                      1. 321 Offline
                        321 (321) 14 June 2020 19: 17
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                        Quote: Cyril
                        that they are not meaningful to you, these are definitely not my problems

                        Yours. For phrases to mean something, they need to be filled with content. You have no content.

                        Did not guess laughing - if you are NOT able to answer in essence, or are not able to perceive the contents of the post - these are your problems, so since you have nothing to object to the matter, now you will just blabber it, but the problems are yours - and the fact that you do not you realize - it is very vivid and characterizes you, whether you want it or not. negative hi
                      2. Cyril Offline
                        Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 19: 19
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                        or unable to perceive the content of the post

                        I am not able to perceive the missing content of the post, it’s true. No one is capable.
                      3. 321 Offline
                        321 (321) 14 June 2020 20: 17
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                        Quote: Cyril
                        or unable to perceive the content of the post

                        I am not able to perceive the missing content of the post, it’s true. ...

                        Nobody doubted your "abilities" on this subject - you have once again confirmed this. bully
  • gorenina91 Offline
    gorenina91 (Irina) 14 June 2020 09: 59
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    -As the lieutenant Lyatyevsky used to say in Sholokhov’s novel "Virgin Soil Upturned": "... who are you ..... -patriot without a fatherland ...- commander without an army ... -player without a single zloty in his pocket ..." ...
    -That this "little game" little man-insignificance was the so-called "General de Gaulle" (also de Gaulle ...- it would be quite enough and simple ... Gaulle-and even more precisely ...- rickety goal) ... at the beginning of the 40s of the last century ...
    -And if Stalin literally by his ears would not drag France into the category of "victorious countries" (from the mud ... - but immediately to riches); then the "General de Gaulle" would have remained ...- just a "loose leg" ...
    -And there are some numerous correspondence of this pseudo General Gaulle with someone there still have the value of French tabloid novels ...
    -And as arguments ... all these “correspondence” of this Gaull’s insignificance ...
    -And do not have to bring it here ...- already whole quotes of this Gaul ... -And by this, to re-magnify the status of worthless general Gaul ...
    -You can already begin to quote the correspondence of the same "great commander Haftar" ...- this will be more relevant ...
    1. 321 Offline
      321 (321) 14 June 2020 10: 53
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      Quote: gorenina91
      ...- And as arguments ... all these "correspondence" of this Gaul’s insignificance ...- well, they’re completely unsuitable ...
      - And do not bring here ...- even whole quotes of this Gaul ... - And by this re-magnify the status of the worthless general Gaul ....

      That this is NOT an argument for you - I’ll willingly believe it, only if it’s good for you, guess for yourself - hi
      then ... then ... then ...
      here ... here ... here ...
      And so a few more times, your replica’s argument will be simply reinforced concrete, and do not forget the main thing - "... I ..." (c), it is so important for you. hi
  • 321 Offline
    321 (321) 14 June 2020 11: 05
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    Dear colleagues!
    Personally, I had the impression that it was already quite substantial in essence, but to try to prove something to someone who neither in history, nor even in the military sciences was booming - would BE different, would not write that the difference in the position of France and the USSR there was NO - when they began to be in a state of war ?? But to chew all this - I will express myself politely, not to a specialist who DOES NOT absolutely understand the difference between defeats and surrender, and much more than that - what's the point?
    There is a suspicion that the local opponent is directly interested in the number of posts - is the hint clear, someone Cyril?
    And yet - earlier you tried to portray something there, when you were explicitly hinted at the number NINE, in the classics of literature, that I supposedly confused Chekhov and the chamber number, I had to upset you - I didn’t confuse anything - Dante Alighieri, you will find the work yourself, there you yourself will find that what is connected with the number nine is about you, Cyril (Cyril), you had to study better. hi
    PS Write better about the Mask, especially since it’s not interesting to me at all ... bully
    1. Cyril Offline
      Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 13: 01
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      there is a suspicion that the local opponent is directly interested in the number of posts - the hint is clear, someone Cyril?

      I do not care about your speculations and suspicions about me.

      Dante Alighieri, you will find the work yourself, and there you will find what is connected with the number nine - this is about you, Cyril (Cyril), you had to study better

      You just need to express yourself in precise formulations, and not in vague metaphors that your opponent must decipher for you.
      1. 321 Offline
        321 (321) 14 June 2020 13: 16
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        Quote: Cyril
        ... I do not care about your speculation and suspicion about me ....

        No one doubted that your upbringing leaves much to be desired. bully

        Quote: Cyril
        .
        Dante Alighieri, you will find the work yourself, and there you will find what is connected with the number nine - this is about you, Cyril (Cyril), you had to study better.

        You just need to express yourself in precise formulations, and not in vague metaphors that your opponent must decipher for you.

        Everything is simpler, this is called the level of education, or general development, if you want - here you also do not have ice, as it turns out, but these are your problems. hi
        1. Cyril Offline
          Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 15: 07
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          that your upbringing leaves much to be desired

          It is better to be rude than building your assumptions solely on speculation like you.

          Everything is simpler, this is called the level of education, or general development, if you want

          Knowing the Divine Comedy does not make you an educated person. And the topic no longer taught to express its thoughts clearly and clearly.
          1. 321 Offline
            321 (321) 14 June 2020 15: 34
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            Quote: Cyril
            .
            that your upbringing leaves much to be desired

            Better to be rude than building your assumptions solely on speculation, like you ...

            Who would write about speculation here negative - Yesterday I wrote all that is possible, referring to Ph.D. - today, when that same candidate of historical sciences drove down the baseboard - again you need to prove something - here you first justify your speculation, and only after that we will essentially talk, and do not forget that there earlier, I wrote about another author, his turn is still ahead. bully hi
            PS One thing pleases - you do not deny the gaps in your upbringing. bully

            Quote: Cyril
            ... Knowledge of the "Divine Comedy" does not make you an educated person. And the topic no longer taught to clearly and clearly express their thoughts.

            And who told you that my education is based solely on "Divine Comedy"? But you and your fellow hobbyists, called Russophobia, know too much about the details for now, get lost. hi
            PS Your opinion about my education and other matters is extremely small for me - you too often have already demonstrated your failure, so you have never been an authority for me, and you will never, never even dream of it. bully
            1. Cyril Offline
              Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 19: 03
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              when that same candidate of historical sciences drove down the baseboard

              Where?) Your "yes he is a damned corrupt Russophobe" - it's just incoherent cries, under which there is no basis.

              and who told you that my education is based solely on "Divine Comedy"?

              So you yourself concluded that I was supposedly uneducated on the sole ground that I didn’t understand from your vague hints that by “number 9” you meant the 9th circle of Hell. As if the "number 9" is found exclusively in this work. laughing
              Again. An educated person is distinguished by the ability to substantiate his point of view. This means bringing some arguments to it. They may even be erroneous or inaccurate - no one forbids to make mistakes.

              But you are not even capable of bringing such arguments, only yelling about "Russophobia" and "venality", an appeal to a person, a change of theses.

              So, learn from Bakhtiyar - although I do not agree with his position, he justifies it, gives facts, extracts from memoirs, concrete figures. This is how discussions need to be conducted. And do not rant with general phrases about "corruption", "education", etc.
              1. 321 Offline
                321 (321) 14 June 2020 20: 11
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                Quote: Cyril
                when that same candidate of historical sciences drove down the baseboard

                Where?) Your "yes, he is a damned corrupt Russophobe" - it's just incoherent screams, under which there is no base ....

                Where - yes, in those figures that were given, and that's not all - and you just lie, stupidly and primitively, give an example, or figure it out yourself? - But out of ignorance or ignorance by you - but to whom are the reasons for your lies interesting?

                Quote: Cyril
                …Again. An educated person is distinguished by the ability to substantiate his point of view. This means bringing some kind of argument to it. They may even be erroneous or inaccurate - no one forbids to make mistakes.
                But you are not even capable of bringing such arguments, only yelling about "Russophobia" and "venality", an appeal to the person, a change of theses ...

                I am not personally interested in your opinion about my education, or the lack of one in your opinion - although I can share this with you, there will still be a couple of your hobby colleagues - but what you simply DO NOT perceive, what they write to you - leads to the fact that, firstly, I DO NOT want and WILL NOT bridge the gaps in your education and your “knowledge” - what and how can those states that are not officially at war and that cannot be done, so this you yourself and only yourself. And secondly - your "argumentation" is untenable in the vast majority of cases - did you try to write something about a border battle, about the number of tanks or other equipment - about the SUDDENANCE of the attack who did NOT write, or is this news for you?

                Quote: Cyril
                ... Now, learn from Bakhtiyar - although I do not agree with his position, he justifies it, gives facts, extracts from memoirs, concrete figures. This is how discussions need to be conducted. And do not rant with general phrases about "corruption", "education", etc.

                What other instructions will be? laughing
                The fact that in those posts that I prepared for you in the morning, I had to simply delete some points - so as not to repeat with Bakhtiyar - why do you need it? You don’t understand this anyway, you continue to do this, and we will completely understand each other without your help ... hi
  • Oleg Rambover Offline
    Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 14 June 2020 12: 42
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    Interestingly, in France there is some Nealzhiro, like our esteemed Neukropny, who in his articles portrays how Russians scared and betrayed the French in the 17th year of the war that they themselves started, and only heroic French were able to stop the Germans, and even debts they did not return their own. Yes, in addition, they kissed the gums with Hitler in 39-40 and German tanks drove through the expanses of France on gasoline made from Russian oil, and German horses ate Russian oats. And so all the Russians ... well, then we take the text of the respected Necropolis and replace the word French with Russian.
    Here is surely there is the same Frenchman.

    And yes, to preach the thought, as the respected Neukrony does, that there are some cowardly peoples, and yours consists of heroes alone, this is Nazism.
    1. 321 Offline
      321 (321) 14 June 2020 13: 01
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      Quote: Oleg Rambover
      It is interesting, but in France there is some Nealzhiro, like our respected Neukropny, who in his articles describes how the Russians scared and betrayed the French in 17 in a war that they themselves Have begun, and only heroic French were able to stop Germans, and still did not repay their debts. Yes in addition kissing in the gums with Hitler in 39-40 and German tanks drove through the expanses of France on gasoline made from Russian oil, and German horses ate Russian oats. And so all the Russians ... well, then we take the text of the respected Necropolis and replace the word French with Russian.
      Here is surely there is the same Frenchman.

      And yes, to preach the thought, as the respected Neukrony does, that there are some cowardly peoples, and yours consists of heroes alone, this is Nazism.

      Who would also apply a translator to these opuses - well, to understand the meaning, at least you could try ???
      And the very heroic ones that stopped the German, nobody helped them there?
      Directly in place? Or is this someone missing?
      And this author will not forget to write, who thought of almost the junior assistant of the senior janitor on behalf of the same France to negotiate about the military alliance? There, and not only the French were “distinguished” in that, but they too ... and about the sermons, well, as you wrote here - can I quote ??? And after that, even here the groans of Yaroslavna begin about kissing - they were offered? They suggested - THEY WERE NOT AGREED BY THE FACT, THERE AND AN ALTERNATIVE OPTION WAS SELECTED ...
      But you need to know this, but your brotherhood has problems with knowledge. bully
      1. Oleg Rambover Offline
        Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 14 June 2020 18: 39
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        Quote: 321
        And those same heroic ones, well, who stopped the German, nobody helped them there?
        Directly in place? Or is this someone missing?

        Well, you and the esteemed Neukropny are not particularly worried that Germany diverted considerable resources to the war in Africa or the battle for the Atlantic, when you say that the USSR alone defeated "all of Europe." And the word Lend-Lease in general causes an inadequate reaction.
        Why do you think the hypothetical Nealzhiro, unlike you, will pay attention to such details.

        Quote: 321
        And this author will not forget to write, who thought of almost the junior assistant of the senior janitor on behalf of the same France to negotiate about the military alliance?

        Well, we suggested that the hypothetical Nealzhiro is similar to the respected Neukropny. He will say that the negotiations did not make sense, since the contacts of the USSR with Nazi Germany were already in full swing.

        Quote: 321
        They suggested - THEY WERE NOT AGREED BY THE FACT, THERE AND AN ALTERNATIVE OPTION WAS SELECTED ...

        Well, it’s understandable, when someone else collaborates with the Nazis, it’s terrifying horror, and when the Stalinist USSR, it’s normal, because “AN ALTERNATIVE OPTION HAS BEEN CHOSEN”. But we are talking about the French Nealzhiro, and he, as we recall, looks like a respected Necrope and probably you. Accordingly, he justifies his compatriots, but does not forgive the cooperation with Hitler of others.

        Quote: 321
        and about the sermons, well, as you wrote here - can I quote ???

        Well, actually, all to become about it, well, for example:

        Quote: 321
        There was no one who at least dared to spit towards the invaders. They stood and stared mournfully, with European cow submission ...

        Quote: 321
        But you need to know this, but your brotherhood has problems with knowledge.

        Please answer, for you, as a person who does not have problems with knowledge in history, the article of the respected Non-Rural does not raise questions? Nothing confuses her?
        1. 321 Offline
          321 (321) 14 June 2020 19: 23
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          Well, the first paragraph of your opus was enough - it was about the FIRST World War, but it doesn’t bother you - and the rest is a set of your usual mantras - and, by the way, about land lease - this causes your comrades, and this is noticeable ...
          PS Your colleague Cyril’s local business is doing very badly if you were called for help — with your “knowledge” in history. bully laughing
          1. Oleg Rambover Offline
            Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 15 June 2020 11: 38
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            Quote: 321
            Well, the first paragraph of your opus is enough - it was about the FIRST World War, but that doesn’t bother you

            What confuses you?

            Quote: 321
            PS Your colleague Cyril’s local business is doing very badly if you were called for help — with your “knowledge” in history.

            Please rave? Listen, sorry for the immodest question, how old are you? Maybe the peculiar way of communicating for your age is normal, but I worry in vain?

            And yet, with your knowledge of history, doesn’t it bother you in the article of the esteemed Neukropny?
            1. 321 Offline
              321 (321) 15 June 2020 12: 11
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              Quote: Oleg Rambover
              ... raving please? Listen, sorry for the immodest question, how old are you? Maybe the peculiar way of communicating for your age is normal, but am I worrying in vain? ...

              Indiscreet questions ask your relatives, I do not need, anyway I will not answer.
              About nonsense - but you somehow have to read your opuses - about some Nealzhiro, about a strange mixture of the first and second world wars in your opuses ...

              Quote: Oleg Rambover
              ... And yet, with your knowledge of history, doesn’t it bother you in the article of the esteemed Neukropny?

              Who told you, and not only you, that I will share my doubts, even if they arose? Especially here and all the more with you - I have already written and more than once - we are NOT like-minded people, so I am NOT going to share with you - nothing, whether you like it or not. hi
              1. Oleg Rambover Offline
                Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 15 June 2020 18: 31
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                Well ok, don't be nervous. Take care of yourself.
                1. 321 Offline
                  321 (321) 15 June 2020 21: 32
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                  And who told you that I'm nervous? laughing and did not start ...
    2. isofat Offline
      isofat (Sergei) 14 June 2020 13: 14
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      Quote: Oleg Rambover
      ... we take the text of the respected Neukropny and replace the word French with Russian.

      Oleg Rambover, all the same you are drawn to some nasty things. I think you are a liberal.

      Quote: F. M. Dostoevsky
      ... according to my many observations, our liberal can never allow anyone to have his own special conviction and not immediately reply to his opponent with a curse or even something worse ...
      1. Oleg Rambover Offline
        Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 15 June 2020 00: 25
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        Quote: isofat
        all the same you are drawn to some nasty things.

        Are you talking about the text of the respected Neukropny? In my opinion, you are too categorical. Would not read if it is disgusting for you.

        Quote: isofat
        I think you are a liberal.

        By the way, can you formulate what you do not like in liberal ideology?

        Regarding Dostoevsky, do you have one training manual for everyone? I was quoted here just now. Favorite quote of the Black Hundreds. Already someone, but not you to quote about swearing and something worse there. As they say, either put on your underpants or take off your cross. By the way, you know who the soil workers are and where they are now. Who defeated the Slavophiles and Pan-Slavists against the Westerners?
        1. The comment was deleted.
    3. Cyril Offline
      Cyril (Kirill) 14 June 2020 15: 03
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      I was especially amused by his “argument” - they say, a lot of French people died, and few Germans. Which supposedly indicates that the French fought poorly.

      He would have seen the losses of the USSR and Germany with the allies in 1941 - he would have been enough for a blow. Again.
      1. Oleg Rambover Offline
        Oleg Rambover (Oleg Rambover) 15 June 2020 00: 40
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        The pearl was especially amused that the Russian prisoners of war became the backbone of the resistance.
  • Shame! And still talking about the "greatness of France"!
  • Egor 7b7 Offline
    Egor 7b7 15 June 2020 17: 35
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    Quote: Cyril
    laughing laughing
    No, my dear friend, this is statistics.

    Statistics CNN and FOX News, this is such statistics, it takes the hell out of it. laughing