Ukraine pointed to its place: what ended the "Norman meeting"


The miracle did not happen ... The meeting in the "Norman format", held on December 9 in Paris, as most analysts predicted, turned out to be "empty troubles" of an international scale. The communication between the leaders of the four countries, which was interrupted in 2016, resumed - this is, in fact, the only real result. There are no others, because they could not be by definition. The contradictions on the most key issues are too serious, the approaches to the ways of solving the main problems of Donbass are too opposite, the positions of the parties are too irreconcilable.


So, did our president fly to the French capital for nothing? We will not rush to conclusions, because the most important meanings of the meeting held on the eve of the meeting lie, as usual, in details that are far from immediately striking.

Agreed to continue to agree ...


The official communique adopted at the end of the summit, transmitted by Emmanuel Macron to media representatives after midnight, in fact, is a reference set of the most general phrases and declarations. The high contracting parties, after a long transfusion from empty to empty, “express commitment”, “support implementation”, “emphasize aspiration”. And there’s something else about the “comprehensive and sustainable architecture of security and trust in Europe” ... In a word, as the wonderful cartoon cat used to say, “guys, let's live in peace”. Real agreements - all the same cat cried. The exchange of “held persons” by the end of this year has been declared. I would like to "everyone at all," but, probably, this will affect only "everyone identified." Or even how it goes. Breeding troops? The Russian side offered to conduct it along the entire line of contact, but Ukraine, as usual, rested: “It will not work!” In the end, it seems, agreed on a “separation of forces and equipment”In three more points with a term until March 2020. Are there any guarantees that Kiev will not break this agreement? Yes, not the slightest. Well, it's better than nothing. A “complete ceasefire” was also announced before, again, the New Year. To achieve this, of course, a good goal, the mandate of the OSCE monitoring mission is proposed to be done around the clock. Will help? We will see. In addition to all this, mine action should be intensified. This, of course, is important.

The rest is a complete dead end. Zelensky continues to talk about transferring the border to Ukraine before the election, while Vladimir Vladimirovich, having the appearance of a teacher who is tired of crushing a double as much as twice two, stands on the “Minsk Agreements”, which says in black and white: “the border only after elections, no one will rewrite, and never will. The Ukrainian president, like a parrot, repeats about the "occupied territories", while Putin, pretending to not hear this at all, "dunks" him heartily for forcing "Ukrainization" of education in the country and persecution of the Russian language. Angela Merkel announces Kiev’s recognition of the "Steinmeier formula", which should "benefit Ukraine," and Zelensky a couple of minutes later declares that the parties "failed to agree on some points of this very formula." Our president recalls that the special status of Donbass should be enshrined in law, moreover, reflected in the Constitution of the country, while the Ukrainian responds to ranting about the “inadmissibility of federalization” and the like. Apparently, the fundamental problems following the “Norman meeting” -2019 are as far from being resolved as they were three years ago, when this negotiation format either “paused” or even died. As it turned out - not until the end. However, being forcibly resuscitated, he looks completely incapacitated. Issues of the exchange of prisoners or the withdrawal of troops on a couple of other sectors are actually not the level of three presidents and one chancellor. Why then a contact group in Minsk? However, the leaders present in Paris announced their intention to meet again - presumably in March next year.

“And we have gas in our apartment ...” The fact that during the final press conference Vladimir Putin addressed his Ukrainian colleague and namesake with words from a nursery rhyme, adding: “And you will, if we agree,” a sign eloquent. On the one hand - all that is already the level of communication: as with a small child. On the other hand, there is more than a clear hint that there may well be no gas in the Ukrainian “apartment”. The "gas issue", which the Russian and Ukrainian sides inevitably had to touch upon during the rendezvous, was, in fact, much more important for many observers than the "Minsk Agreements". For Europeans, that’s for sure. And this question, of course, was raised - whether for nothing, the head of RAO Gazprom and the head of NAK Naftogaz were included in the delegations? Immediately after the negotiations between the presidents of the two countries, which took place with the participation of these specialized experts, some local media reported: “Agreed!” As it turned out later, they hastened with optimistic conclusions. They were almost immediately denied by Yuriy Vitrenko, who proudly declared that Kiev intends to continue to bend its line: to demand fabulous “arbitration” compensations is incomprehensible for what and in general - not a step back, no gas “zrada!” Ukraine is still ready to freeze ears in spite of Moscow, while calling the transit negotiations held in Paris “constructive” - because, according to the literal expression of the same Vitrenko, “they agreed to continue to negotiate”! Some kind of surrealism ...

Ukraine, know your place!


Generally speaking, quite vivid details, seemingly random, but very symbolic, were numerous during this meeting. All meetings between Vladimir Putin and fellow leaders took place in different rooms of the Champs Elysees. He communicated with Emmanuel Macron in the Golden Hall, and with Angela Merkel in the ambassadors' hall. With Zelensky - in the adjutant hall. The Chancellor of Germany arrived at the negotiating place in a Mercedes limousine, and the President of Russia arrived in the domestic Aurus limousine. The Ukrainian leader had to be content with a modest Renault minivan. Obviously, he did not find the “Zaporozhets” representative class on the farm ... However, all this is a joke, of course. The bottom line is different. Even before the meeting, many analysts predicted that it would result in a group "twisting of arms" of Russia. If not in the Donbass, then on issues of continuing the transit of "blue fuel" through the Ukrainian GTS on any conditions - for sure. Yes, what are the assumptions - German Foreign Minister Heiko Maas absolutely openly stated that “Moscow must meet Kiev”, which “after several years of stagnation found the strength to take the first steps.” What kind of steps these are, however, has not been specified, but the statement that we already “owe” something to Ukraine has been made. However, in practice, nothing of the kind, judging by the results, has happened. No, attempts may have been made. And even most likely. The appearance of Vladimir Putin at the final press conference could best be characterized by the epithet "emaciated" ... Nevertheless, he did not make a single concession to Kiev. And most importantly, the representatives of Ukraine did not, as usual, started yelling at all of Facebook about anything like that, barely leaving the Champs Elysees. So there’s absolutely nothing to boast about.

By the way, the same Maas in his speech mentioned that Germany and Russia are now "discussing serious issues in connection with the murder in Berlin." It must be said that just on the eve of the summit, efforts were just titanic to inflate precisely this topic. As it turned out, they disappeared in vain. If someone thought in this way to seriously quarrel our countries, then he miscalculated. Asked at the final press conference about the prospects of investigating the death of Khangoshvili and the possible consequences of Russian-German relations, Angela Merkel provoked a more than calm reaction: "so far we have only suspicions ... Mr Putin promised assistance." But Vladimir Vladimirovich didn’t keep silent! Not only in very lively expressions he painted the personality and bloody deeds of the “murdered”, but also managed to chastise the Germans: they say, we asked you to give this bandit away, but you didn’t want to ... It was meant: now, and disintegrate. In general, Vladimir Vladimirovich, despite obvious fatigue, was quite harsh in his speeches, and at the same time, specific. He spoke about the need to increase checkpoints on the demarcation line, the obligatory amnesty for the participants, as he put it, of the “events in the Donbass” on the part of the Republics, the obligation of Kiev to conduct a direct dialogue with them, “without which nothing will be decided.” By the way, to the question of a German journalist: whether Russia will send German diplomats in response to Berlin’s actions, Vladimir Vladimirovich, without wagging, gave a direct answer: “You sent ours - we will send yours!” Vladimir Zelensky, in turn, after reproaching the representatives of the Russian media for the impossibility of not only working normally in Ukraine, but generally getting there, began ... to discuss which producer of the shoe Vladimir Solovyov had from. N-yes ... This is the level, of course.

What is characteristic, questions that concerned only Donbass directly, the “Minsk Agreements” and everything else, which, in fact, was the main topic of the meeting, sounded exclusively from journalists from Russia and Ukraine. Their European colleagues from Germany and France from Putin wanted to hear something completely different. For example, his attitude to WADA's discriminatory decision or comments on the Berlin murder. Ukraine is no longer completely interesting to them. And not only representatives of the European media, but all of Europe, were tired of it. For Vladimir Zelensky, of course, the presence at the summit itself was already a great achievement. He, yesterday, to put it mildly, a showman, was admitted to the circle of those who really decide the fate of the world. That's just neither victory nor triumph in the end did not work. Well, only small, but extremely annoying "punctures" - with whom does not happen ?! Well, Macron was literally forced to point the Ukrainian president to his place (Zelensky was aiming to sit in a chair prepared for Putin), and Vladimir Vladimirovich had to remind his colleague from the ground up that he had to turn his face to the press during protocol photography and not another place ... The Paris summit clearly showed that Ukraine has ceased to be for the West, at least for Europe, the "navel of the earth" and the "sacred cow", which they intend to defend without sparing the stomach of St. about him. Galloping on the next semblance of the “Maidan” in Kiev in anticipation of the return of the Zelensky pithecanthropus, there is far from delight, but irritation. Even in Paris, shaken by its social cataclysms against the “president”, whom a crowd gathered under his residence is trying to threaten and dictate the foreign policy agenda, they look without any respect.


Zelensky’s reservation made during the press conference that “it was a meeting of three leaders” is, in fact, no reservation. Those who found the strength to watch the event to the end, before the broadcast cameras were turned off, managed to see how the Ukrainian president was disappearing somewhere, and the leaders of Germany and France were surrounded by Putin, who began to interpret something emotionally (without any translators), while gesturing vigorously. Everything is right, “children's time is over”, adult conversations started ... The victory at the current “Norman” meeting of Russia consists, at least, in that it could not be turned into yet another “benefit” of Ukraine, a Russophobic show with elements of defamation of our country . And, by the way, according to the available information, the Ukrainian delegation was initially advised in Paris not to open their mouths about Crimea. Or else it will be ...
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  1. steelmaker Offline steelmaker
    steelmaker 10 December 2019 09: 30
    +4
    Putin behaved with dignity, did not bend, although he was bent! That’s the whole result. But no. If they exchange all prisoners, at least rejoice at the people! It will not be enough ?!
    1. Conn Offline Conn
      Conn (Conn) 12 December 2019 05: 10
      +2
      Putin came to this show for one purpose - to show that Ze is a pea jester, but it turned out even better, everyone saw that Ze is a dummy, a donut hole and even the honorary title of a jester of all Europe lost this nonsense!
  2. Port Offline Port
    Port 10 December 2019 10: 50
    +2
    Baby Don't you think your place is near the bucket?

    "Gentlemen of Fortune".
    1. Pete mitchell Offline Pete mitchell
      Pete mitchell (Pete Mitchell) 10 December 2019 11: 40
      +1
      Quote: Port
      Baby Don't you think your place is near the bucket?

      Well, you, so undemocratic and not decommunized. I offer in English: no news, this is good news too.
      Although no, I think your wording is more suitable, the 404s have not grown yet, they have not grown.
  3. Valentine Offline Valentine
    Valentine (Valentin) 10 December 2019 10: 52
    +3
    And the eternal battle, we only dream of peace .....

    It seems that they talked about everything, but in the end - about nothing, because without the special status of Donbass, all these talks-negotiations are just emptiness, and a complete impasse, with the continuation of the previous, if not more, bloodshed. Even if the President of Ukraine Zelensky wants to do something for a peaceful resolution in the Donbass, Galichan street will not allow him to do this, all these poroshenko-yaroshi-parubii, and with "yours and ours" he will not last long, they will not let him do this is what those who are already in line for the presidency of Ukraine, and the West simply needs Ukraine for a constant confrontation with Russia, right up to the unleashing of a military conflict on its borders, only crazy people will not be able to calculate the consequences of such a step, and this is very necessary for Washington, because ahead another "great depression" awaits him, but we, we are no stranger to any cataclysms - we survived, we survive, and we will survive, and we have nowhere to go, unless we bow to Uncle Sam.
  4. boriz Offline boriz
    boriz (boriz) 10 December 2019 11: 45
    +2
    In general, it went the way I wrote in the commentary to the article "Normandy Summit: No One Is Going to Agree with Russia": Putin did not back down a millimeter, but we agreed to negotiate further on gas. There are 3 weeks left to negotiate, and 2 weeks taking into account Christmas.
    Zelensky looked clogged. Putin pleased with a sense of humor and endurance. To the stupid question of the Ukrainian journalist he answered, as if he were talking with a mentally retarded schoolgirl. What did she expect from him? What will he explain to her that they will never let the APU into LDNR? Or did she expect to be released after thousands of killed civilians, hundreds of murdered children, murdered pregnant women? The rules of this site do not allow me to say what I think of her.
  5. boriz Offline boriz
    boriz (boriz) 10 December 2019 12: 06
    +1
    By the way, the most interesting may still be ahead. The unity of "Servants of the People" in the Rada is already in the past. After Ze's return to Kiev, his rating will still fall and there will be fermentation of the Natsiks. And he still needs to at least extend the existing law on the special status of the LPNR. There is no new time, from the word "absolutely".
    And this very extension seems to me so obvious, they can even give a ride. And then the MS hang up sharply and a new meeting will be a big question. And in general, the situation will change dramatically. Because MS formally cease to exist.
  6. gorenina91 Online gorenina91
    gorenina91 (Irina) 10 December 2019 12: 33
    -11 qualifying.
    - If in a nutshell ...- then ... then ... then ... then Putin lost, but Zelensky won ...
    - Personally, I already wrote that Zelensky is not as simple as many tend to perceive him ... -And I personally said that Zelensky can become quite a big politician ... -And personally, I draw conclusions ... .-yes, Zelensky has enough chances to become one ... -Yes, he behaves more and more confidently and confidently every time ... -It seems that Zelensky ... is a serious headache for Russia in the future. ..
    - And Russia lost, lost in all respects ... -And now everyone will start attacking Russia ... -This has already begun ...

    - Some kind of WADA, which Russia itself has "instilled" with its "obedient obedience" ... - and then ... - more ... - Now it will always be so ... - and our athletes will have to perform incognito at competitions ... -this ... this ... this ... this is sheer disgusting ...

    - And then ... - and then ... and such a "dear" to us, such "friendly Turkey" for Russia ... - is also ready to show Russia its opposition again ...

    - And Ukraine just got out of thin air from Zap. Europe's new carte blanche; new support; and new loans ... -And also Trump did not have time to "stroke" Zelensky ..- also Trump, most likely, will reward him ...- This is how Zelensky ... is such a "simpleton" .., and he beat Putin ... -And Zelensky's rating will now go up ...

    - In this way, from the most unpretentious show "Normandy meeting" ... - Ukraine got everything to the maximum ... and Russia did not receive anything at all ... - Putin was very poorly prepared for this meeting ... - Our the guarantor thought that one could behave in the same way as at the "Valdai Forum" and that everything would be accepted with a bang ... - But at this "Normandy meeting" the audience is somewhat different ... - hence the failure ... - Yes, Russia lost there ... - now there will be consequences ... - "concessions on gas", "conclusion of agreements", etc ...
    - But ... now China too, to which Russia is completely subordinate anyway ... - will begin to bend Russia even more ... -That's how ...
    1. S.V.YU Offline S.V.YU
      S.V.YU 10 December 2019 13: 00
      +5
      Sorry, but you are raving, madame! There is no loss to Russia!
      1. gorenina91 Online gorenina91
        gorenina91 (Irina) 10 December 2019 13: 15
        -9
        -For you ..., besides S.V.Yu., "O" was also added ...
        1. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
          Pishenkov (Alexey) 10 December 2019 14: 19
          +4
          ... there is my opinion and wrong! Bravo! And why bother to give out something to the public, if you have such, to put it mildly, not a healthy perception of criticism? As Zhvanetsky used to say, "can you correct something in the conservatory?" laughing
      2. boriz Offline boriz
        boriz (boriz) 10 December 2019 16: 06
        +1
        Leave, a person lives in his virtual reality, do not spoil her buzz.
        Interestingly, but on this site you can ignore it? Is it pure for yourself?
        1. The comment was deleted.
        2. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
          Pishenkov (Alexey) 11 December 2019 12: 05
          +1
          I think, without an alternative opinion, the discussion will lose its "salt" ... It's just a pity that Irina has such a reaction lately. Opinions and comments in recent years are also very strange, it seems to me, but at the same time, in addition to the "flights" with the "O" group, these opinions are expressed quite correctly, so I personally do not think that this deserves "ignore". Everyone has the right to their opinion, albeit the opposite, but something justified - you can argue.
          There are quite enough other frostbitten candidates who carry pathological delirium simply with the aim of provoking the interlocutor, and not to come to any opinion or learn something new ...
      3. chemyurij Offline chemyurij
        chemyurij (chemyurij) 10 December 2019 20: 55
        0
        Quote: S.V.Yu
        Sorry, but you are raving, madame! There is no loss to Russia!

        Bullshit is a professional disease of Russophobes, for this they receive a premium for harmfulness, where milk, where kefir, where cookies.
        1. AICO Offline AICO
          AICO (Vyacheslav) 10 December 2019 22: 28
          0
          And where and "cauldrons with carrion" !!!
    2. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
      Pishenkov (Alexey) 10 December 2019 14: 16
      +5
      Zelensky is not as simple as many tend to perceive him

      - Zelensky is as simple as a felt slipper. And this was evident from the fact that at the press conference I read the speech of the homework, obviously not even changing it, as a result of the negotiations. And also from his answers to questions, thank God for him, very few. I read what they gave him. The key question is WHO GIVEN? These, who give him what to read, are "not so simple", not Ze. I even feel sorry for him. The guy may end up badly.
      And all that Ukraine has won in all this is 4 months of deferment + IMF loan to cover part of the debts. Both that, and another - only a delay of a sentence, no more. If this time is used there wisely, which I personally doubt, then some improvements are possible in the fate of the country, but not dramatic.
      But Donbass is a pity - for another six months people were "hung" in an unknown state.
      1. boriz Offline boriz
        boriz (boriz) 10 December 2019 16: 13
        +2
        Zelensky will be even more pity when he begins to talk directly with LDNR. He was strained for it. And for some reason, no one noticed this. But he was not going to communicate with them before.
        What will it be like to communicate with those whom he called scum? A lot of surprises await him. No wonder they announced the law on the border before the summit. After all, the referendum was held throughout the regions ...
        They will lead him along their "Alley of Angels" ...
        1. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
          Pishenkov (Alexey) 10 December 2019 16: 20
          +1
          He was strained for it.

          - They have been straining them for this for the sixth year already, no sense, however, so far. Weakly "strain", apparently. Really need to strain. And then the dill was already chatting about how they "are at war with Russia." Some even win, sort of. I would catch those who openly declare this, and then upload a video on the network, how they are carried by the legs on a string behind the tank ... They will immediately speak differently. And those behind the tank, and those who later may also be affected by this ... Kind too GDP and patient ... Ramzan needs to give all this to the settlement ... And then there are a lot of photographs to shoot ... and "I will "to announce from the rostrum exclusively ...
          1. boriz Offline boriz
            boriz (boriz) 10 December 2019 16: 23
            +3
            No, he said on the press that he would communicate with them. In response to the corresponding words of GDP. Apparently, Macron and Merkel cleared their brains.
            1. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
              Pishenkov (Alexey) 10 December 2019 16: 27
              +2
              He said that he would communicate with a certain "elite" who left the "occupied" territories for "free Ukraine" ... That is, with the residents of Donbass who are NOT THERE.
              I specifically waited for the press conference yesterday, it was interesting, although later I regretted it - it was not worth it ...
      2. syndicalist Offline syndicalist
        syndicalist (Dimon) 11 December 2019 11: 11
        +1
        for another six months people were "hung up" in an unknown state.

        About half a year even crazy optimists do not think. Half a century - and even in the most favorable scenario.
        1. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
          Pishenkov (Alexey) 11 December 2019 12: 08
          0
          ... don't think so. The fastest, denouement in the Donbass will come before the end of 2020, the longest - until the end of Putin’s term. GDP will not translate this further, he will decide. I can bet on that.
    3. Valentine Offline Valentine
      Valentine (Valentin) 10 December 2019 17: 34
      +3
      No, Irina, Putin hasn’t lost anything yet, but he hasn’t won, and Ukraine hasn’t taken any success for herself, no matter how she puffed out her cheeks, and this can be seen from the main point of the MC on providing autonomy for LDN, which Zelensky does not think provide residents of the Donbass, and, therefore, Ukraine will not receive any border, and this is the main stumbling block in this bloody dispute. You, Irina, look at everything through the eyes of ordinary residents of the country, who don’t need any mythical concessions to Moscow, but they need peace in their country, they need work to feed their families, they need a quiet life, and not mobilization to the slaughter and not the war imposed on them by the Galicians who seized power. In Ukraine, almost 250 thousand people are under arms, in a state of full combat readiness (we won’t talk about quality), and they all need to be shod, dressed, fed, put to bed, and paid salaries, but where to get the money for it, and this is only for army, and in civilian life there is complete chaos, unemployment, lack of money. And utter hopelessness, almost everyone who escaped from mobilization plows in Russia and Europe, and European handouts are plundered immediately on the ground, and this cannot continue for so long, so now there will begin a bickering between themselves for both power and money Allocated to Ukraine by the IMF, before their plunder, and the next Maidan of the Natsik who were removed from power and the feeder.
      1. gorenina91 Online gorenina91
        gorenina91 (Irina) 10 December 2019 18: 23
        -3
        - Well then ... what you state ... is all evidence, evidence .. evidence ...
        - This "obviousness" is also true for Russia ...
        - And for Russia, everything looks much sadder ...- for the reason that Russia has everything in order to become a superpower with a cosmic high standard of living from a state with dilapidated industry and economy ...
        - And what about Ukraine ??? -Who makes her fight ??? -Nothing threatens the independence of the country ... -and all ordinary citizens of Ukraine have already seen this ...
        - You are in vain idealizing ordinary citizens of Ukraine, saying ... - give them peace, work, etc ... and they don’t need anything else ....
        - No, this is far from true ... -and many ordinary Ukrainians really want to fight ... -shoot from guns in Novorossia ...- at its cities, villages and towns ...; play a war with the locals there ...; to jump and curl in the streets and squares ... -All this has not bothered the inhabitants of Ukraine ... - They seriously believe that Crimea belongs to Ukraine and that it must be taken from Russia; and New Russia just to destroy ...
        - And they are ready to do it ...- Yes., Yes ...- simple Ukrainian people support all this and are ready to participate in it ...
        - Moreover ...- it is at the grassroots level (among the simple Ukrainian people) that hostility towards Russians and Russia (to say the least) also flourishes ... -All the superior and oligarchs are not nationalists at all ...- they will become such nonsense to engage ... is the lot of ordinary citizens ...
        - And it is on this "ready-made national potential" that the Bandera, the Makhnovists, the Petliurists and all kinds of "self-styled" people rely ...
        - And all the Ukrainian youth they do not pick up ...- these young people are ready for any actions ...- just give her the task ... -and they will rush to fulfill it in a crowd ... - which they willingly and with great joy do today ... -And here not only money plays the first role ... -just the youth themselves are ideologically ready to fight against Russia ...
        - Everything is much more serious than many people think ... -Otherwise, everything in Ukraine would have calmed down long ago ...- well, they galloped and dispersed ... to their homes ... -No .., there is nobody in Ukraine houses "and does not think ... - Alas ...
        1. beeper Offline beeper
          beeper 10 December 2019 19: 27
          +3
          How did Peter the Great say that

          ... do not forbid anyone, let them speak, and then the degree of everyone's stupidity will be seen. "

          -Something like that within the meaning ?! winked This is just our case!
          Before your comment, Irina aka gorenina91, at times reading your quasi "feverish comments", thought that you were just an unhappy, naive woman, painfully reeling in the disorderly mess of some of her illusory "thoughts", but now I saw that you were in vain so mentally I regretted and treated your short-sighted "verbal correction ... exercises" with sympathy - after all, you, Irina (living in Russia ???), slander us, ordinary Ukrainian residents, worse than anyone (I have met in 10 years on the Web , and I've seen a lot of them!) Ameroholuysky troll and even worse than primitive farmers' Banderonazi Goebbelsuchs from Stetsinfo and Censor! IMHO

          I live in historical New Russia, a simple Ukrainian resident is Russian by nationality, and I know by no means firsthand the subject of your evil insinuations ..
          However, “according to you” - according to your “commentary” - I am also one of these “subjects”, about which you are “talking” - do you cope with such an arch-mentor's “aplomb” and 1000% confidence in your own “infallibility” ?! winked
          Alas, Irina! negative
          1. gorenina91 Online gorenina91
            gorenina91 (Irina) 10 December 2019 20: 21
            -6
            - What did you want to say something ???
            - The fact that you live in New Russia, and personally I slander you ??? - Or slander Novorossia itself, its inhabitants ??? - Actually, I spoke out about the danger that Ukraine was hanging over Novorossia ...
            - And what ...- personally, I suddenly undertook to claim that you live somewhere else ??? -Or what ??? -You are a little man who perceives the opposite ??
            - That's nice ...
            - Do you have to me what ??? - Dislike, manic pursuit, any other claims ???
            - What is the matter ??? - A continuous stream ... and it is not known what ...
            - I could, of course, send you ... to the "O" group ... -Well, in fact, personally with you I am communicating for the penultimate time ... -all I would like to hear something intelligible ...
            - You really work, sir, to say something intelligible ...
            - And do not in vain mention Peter the First, etc ...- he is not here in business ...- Hahah ...
            - And if you are still going to answer my questions ... then ... then ... then ... then do not use "for courage" (you know what) ... otherwise again something incoherent will turn out. .. -Hahah ...
            1. beeper Offline beeper
              beeper 10 December 2019 20: 47
              -1
              Historical Novorossia - the former Wild Field, the South-East of Ukraine, the Black Sea coast, Odessa region, Nikolaev region, Yekaterinoslav region, Kherson region ... - google it, Irina, otherwise you have too blinkered, narrow-tunneled, "worldview (geography, what else, skipped school or born in 91 - then, of course, the "simplified issue" and the exam?) "! request

              Could I, of course, send you ...

              What time, you, Irina aka gorenina91, got into a fool about yourself ?! smile

              We showed our FOR PEACE to the whole world, when the majority for the clown-jester (the fruit of your short-sighted naive - "the future great politician" lol ), protesting against the belligerent "w / Bandera" Giblets, voted for his publicly declared willingness to kneel down, to negotiate with the devil, to be a sentence to the war criminal Poroshenko and his accomplices, but the first step as the ukropresident to bring peace in Donbass and all over Ukraine (although it was clear that this, with his "happiness" and how this "artist" before, giving concerts in the "ATO zone" and fawning before the Bandera, called the Donettans "scum that cannot live", only "with a pitchfork on the water" written by a local clown!) - only the blind and engaged did not understand this (and you, already it is obvious to me, are among them) ?!
              1. gorenina91 Online gorenina91
                gorenina91 (Irina) 10 December 2019 21: 44
                -7
                - Ah ..., hell ... it ... what's the matter ...
                - And it cost me here ... here ... here ... here before you ...
                - Yes, what do I care about your Zelensky ... - you’ve chosen yourself ... - now you’re nursing him ... -It’s not interesting for me Ukraine itself ...

                Historical New Russia - the former Wild Field, Southeast of Ukraine, the Black Sea coast, Odessa region, Nikolayevshchina, Yekaterinoslavshchina, Kherson region ..

                - Well, it’s necessary ... how simple it all turns out ... -Personally, I’m not going to convince you of anything ... -But since then, you are also uninteresting to me ...
                “You yourself don’t know ... on whose side are you ... -and Zelensky is not the reason here ...”
                - Yes, and it is a pity to define you in the "O" group ... - it's not your fault, but a misfortune ...
                - Yes, trouble ... - exactly the same trouble as in Russia ...
                - And in vain are you looking for some kind of "outlet" in Russia ... -Russia has exactly the same problems as in Ukraine ... -And Russian oligarchs are no better than Ukrainian ones ... -and in the same way depend on Americans ...
                - Today, Russia and Ukraine have too few things to do to live peacefully ...
                - But ... who knows ... ... no matter how it turns around ... -But, whatever one may say ...- Ukrainians are still much more aggressive against the Russians .. rather than vice versa ...
                - And this is where the Ukrainian people will now go all this accumulated aggression ...- this is a very big question ... -Personally, I believe that it will take almost 100 years for this dislike to begin to disappear ...
                - But Russia does not have this hostility ... - it doesn’t need these 100 years to get rid of everything ... -Russia has nothing to get rid of ... like Ukraine ... -That's why I feel sorry for you (Ukrainians) ... - vainly waving their fists into the void ...
                1. beeper Offline beeper
                  beeper 10 December 2019 22: 19
                  +1
                  hi I sincerely wish you Irina aka gorenina91! You don’t understand anything, alas! request
            2. The comment was deleted.
              1. The comment was deleted.
        2. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
          Pishenkov (Alexey) 11 December 2019 12: 29
          +1
          I do not agree unequivocally with everything, but I agree with many things. Put a plus. Lately, probably the most adequate comment you have, Irina.
          I will only add that there are a lot of those who just want to fight, not only in Ukraine. And also not only in Ukraine there are those who, for financial and political reasons, benefit from this war. Local conflicts, as a rule, are generally beneficial to a much larger number of people than world conflicts - someone will fight for their own pleasure, like on a safari, someone will earn money and political points, and all this with the opportunity to leave, even not very far, and live calmly and comfortably, or even engage in "war" without leaving your home and without threatening yourself personally ...

          PS This is the answer to the first comment -

          Yesterday, 18: 23

          - not subsequent to the discussion.
  7. Upmost Offline Upmost
    Upmost (Innocent) 10 December 2019 14: 41
    -7
    I read it and thought - What a familiar phrase. And then at the end - "Alexander Necropny".

    All clear. But the skills of this notebook patriot are so-so - rhetoric and verbal level - like those of a fifth grader.

    But for local adepts, that’s enough.
  8. Upmost Offline Upmost
    Upmost (Innocent) 10 December 2019 14: 46
    -6
    The Ukrainian leader had to be content with a modest Renault minivan. Obviously, he did not find the “Zaporozhets” representative class on the farm ...

    How all this correlates with the essence of the Norman meeting, knows only the Neurocrop.
  9. Upmost Offline Upmost
    Upmost (Innocent) 10 December 2019 14: 49
    -6
    and Vladimir Vladimirovich, while having the appearance of a teacher, fatally tired ...

    I don't know how much teachers. But obviously dead tired.

    Something at his conference is kind of not very ....
    1. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
      Pishenkov (Alexey) 10 December 2019 16: 13
      +4
      ... I really understand him. Even here, on the site, when you try to convey an adequate point of view to some insane, the feeling is exactly the same. As well as a general understanding of the futility of the time and energy spent on it. So what about GDP, talking to a representative of Ukraine ... You get tired of it ... throwing peas against a wall, and even in the presence of European colleagues - you have to restrain yourself and behave yourself. recourse
      1. Bitter Offline Bitter
        Bitter (Gleb) 10 December 2019 22: 27
        +2
        when communicating with a representative of Ukraine ... You get tired of it ... throwing peas on a wall.

        He arrived, sat, read the script and his role on this was over. hi
        He is not a sucker and understands everything.
        In fact, the current president in Ukraine has not yet decided anything and has no real power.
  10. Upmost Offline Upmost
    Upmost (Innocent) 10 December 2019 17: 36
    -3
    Quote: Pyshenkov
    Even here, on the site, when you try to convey an adequate point of view to some insane, the feeling is exactly the same.

    And what is there to "inform" - Russia has one point of view on this issue, Ukraine - another.

    Ukraine is not obliged to have a point of view IDENTICAL of Russia.

    And even more so to pretend that she (Ukraine) cannot and should not be your point of view.

    So all these "reports" of Putin are exactly "peas against the wall."

    He also "reported" about the pension reform in the prescribed form - I request to treat with understanding.

    So what, reacted?
    1. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
      Pishenkov (Alexey) 10 December 2019 23: 54
      0
      The problem is that Ukraine has NO point of view, NO point of view. This is the problem, first of all for Ukraine itself. There is no idea what to do both in Donbas and in terms of its own development in general. Because the people who are "at the helm" there now have completely different interests, their own ... As it was in Russia in the 90s.
      And about pension reform - those who do not have enough intelligence did not understand. Unfortunately, there are many. And not only in the Russian Federation - in France they either do not understand or do not want to. Clearly, these are unpleasant things. And they can afford to beat ordinary people. But it’s like to treat a tooth - the sooner the better, and the further you delay, the more painful and more expensive it will be later.
  11. Upmost Offline Upmost
    Upmost (Innocent) 10 December 2019 17: 41
    -4
    Quote: Pyshenkov
    You’ll get here ... throwing peas on the wall, and even in the presence of European colleagues

    European colleagues already in 2014 they expressed an opinion on the Russian Federation and its actions.
    Since then, nothing has changed.
    Just nuclear weapons (the legacy of the USSR) protects Russia from external influences / intrusions.
    But this does not mean that everyone on the perimeter agrees with the actions of the Kremlin adventurers.
  12. begemot20091 Offline begemot20091
    begemot20091 (begemot20091) 10 December 2019 17: 49
    +1
    Quote: boriz
    Putin pleased with a sense of humor and endurance. To the stupid question of the Ukrainian journalist he answered, as if he were talking with a mentally retarded schoolgirl. What did she expect from him? What will he explain to her that they will never let the APU into LDNR? Or did she expect to be released after thousands of killed civilians, hundreds of murdered children, murdered pregnant women? The rules of this site do not allow me to say what I think of her.

    Dear, where did you see the journalist? You were right when you said: "A woman must not be offended." But you can argue in the definitions: you can't call it a slut, but political ..., newspaper ..., literary ... In general, you understand me: she received her diploma in the same institution as Parubiy.
  13. Upmost Offline Upmost
    Upmost (Innocent) 10 December 2019 17: 59
    -4
    To the place of negotiations, the President of Russia ... arrived in the domestic limousine "Aurus"

    The question is how DOMESTIC such a limousine is.
    With a design that has been "pulled" from everywhere - from Rolls-Royce and Bentley to Maybach.
    Where most of the materials and equipment come from the adversary.
    Zil-41047 looked even cooler and more original in its time.
    1. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
      Pishenkov (Alexey) 11 December 2019 16: 12
      +1
      ... how DOMESTIC is such a limousine

      - this is about Aurus.
      I am also not enthusiastic about this car, but it’s exactly the same in the domestic one, I assure you that, for example, Audi or Mercedes are German, and the American Jeep is even more so - at least it is produced only in the Russian Federation .. And the details are yes, many are imported ...
      Globalism, my friend ... laughing Didn't you know? laughing
  14. Yuri Mikhailovsky (Yuri Mikhailovsky) 10 December 2019 18: 08
    +4
    And there could be no other. Ukrainians will not go for a peaceful solution in the Southeast. The owners will not allow them, and their population will not support.
    1. beeper Offline beeper
      beeper 10 December 2019 19: 47
      +1
      US, POPULATION, American occupiers with Bandera-Nazis DO NOT ASK!
      And the fact that the MOST UKRAINIAN multinational POPULATION IS FOR PEACE and support peaceful initiatives, we showed the whole world by voting for the epic clown Ze, who promised peace in the Donbass and ending the civil war (this was the only way, therefore, for our unarmed civilians to demonstrate their own peace will, contrary to the aggressive intentions of the hated invaders - to the teeth of armed Bandera Nazis and their Washington masters!)!
  15. Oleg Kalugin Offline Oleg Kalugin
    Oleg Kalugin (Oleg Kalugin) 10 December 2019 19: 45
    +6
    Well, my three pennies in the general alignment of events in Paris.
    Zelensky handsome and he is still a rogue. I didn’t decide anything, but I achieved the main goal - I sat next to the leaders of the countries!
    The usual reception of cheaters and scammers of small scale ...
    Type: - Rate ... with whom I am sitting!
    1. gorenina91 Online gorenina91
      gorenina91 (Irina) 11 December 2019 04: 52
      -5
      - Yes, not only "Zelensky handsome" .... - also "handsome Macron" ...
      - Macron was sitting on "this format" and the whole thing was shining ... - as if not in his country at this time public speeches of his people are taking place, on the streets of his Paris ...
      - And what is the matter of this Macron to some kind of Ukraine there; before the war in the Donbass; to the tragedy of a people living far from France .. if he’s on the drum what is happening today and now with his own people ...
      - Yes, and Merkelshe ... - the same ...
      1. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
        Pishenkov (Alexey) 11 December 2019 12: 47
        +3
        Well, then what is your power for the same bonfire? Are they all like that? I assure you that Trump is doing the same. And what to do? World revolution and the power of the proletariat? laughing
        Maybe you just need to understand that the system works this way? And if you need to get somewhere, you must first of all see that the engine is running, the wheels are not blown off and there is enough fuel, and not stop every couple of kilometers to wash the car, wipe the mirror or put things in the trunk? This can be done later, for the purpose ... it does not affect the speed of movement. You just need to decide that the main thing is to get somewhere, to reach the goal, or just to go as you like, without much confidence in the goal of the path and its need ...
        Putin, Merkel, Trump and Macron know what they want with their country, I am sure of this, and they are trying to "come there", and it is not at all necessary that their goals are the same or even similar ... But Zelensky DOES NOT KNOW , where he is going, so he will wipe the mirror, then he will correct the headrest, then the radio will rebuild, but somehow this does not help with the approach to the goal, which simply does not exist ... with him personally.
  16. Upmost Offline Upmost
    Upmost (Innocent) 11 December 2019 03: 21
    0
    Quote: Pyshenkov
    Clearly, these are unpleasant things. And they can afford to beat ordinary people. But it’s like treating a tooth - the sooner the better, and the further you delay, the more painful and more expensive it will be later

    So you "lit up" your own paid entity.
    You go on the street in your city so say it, and watch how quickly you get it in the face .....
    From this common people.
    1. Pishenkov Offline Pishenkov
      Pishenkov (Alexey) 11 December 2019 12: 53
      +3
      And I regularly say this, both in writing and in the eyes of anyone, and in Russia, and not only. And somehow I haven’t received it in the face yet. Or agree with my arguments ... or with complexion, laughing FIG knows them. laughing
      Oh, by the way, if you know someone who would pay me everything for this - give me a contact, otherwise I’m sitting like that, I’m wasting time ... all sorts of dumbasses aren’t getting any smarter, I’ll even earn a penny. good I will be obliged ... wink
  17. Upmost Offline Upmost
    Upmost (Innocent) 11 December 2019 03: 27
    +1
    Quote: Bitter
    In fact, the current president in Ukraine has not yet decided anything and he has no real power

    Since the president of Russia would not hurt a lot of power.
    At least he can do little to be positive.
    The bureaucrats steal, and there is no end to this.
    The military-industrial complex is developing with constant shifts "to the right", and there is no end to this.
    There are more and more billionaires (+ millionaires), with even more poor people, and there is no end to this.
    Government initiatives are increasingly unpleasant for the people, and there is no end to this.
    But he, the president of the Russian Federation, is happy with everything. Either, he can do nothing about it.
    In a good way - it has not been possible since the year 2000 (except for fragmentary improvements).
  18. Upmost Offline Upmost
    Upmost (Innocent) 11 December 2019 03: 39
    -1
    Quote: Yuri Mikhailovsky
    and its population will not support

    Well, in the ideological-nationalist part - yes, he will not support it.
    This means that all other regions have been living after the Maidan for over 5 years, and nothing (deadly).
    But Donbass is special. There are such geniuses that they can not master the Ukrainian language.
    Despite the fact that since the days of the USSR he was taught as a second language. And in the Donbass - including
    And if there weren’t their (Donbass) booze in 2014, the whole country would be in a different situation now.
    So why support them - for not wanting to master the language ( whose name, by the way, crooked with the name that country, from which they, the Donbass, tried to get out in 2014, and in which before that lived over 22 years), these "geniuses" turned their region upside down and chaotic everything in the country?
    Coups begin and end, but an armed booze is completely different ....
    1. plabu Offline plabu
      plabu 11 December 2019 07: 40
      +2
      Quote: UpperMost
      ... So, all other regions have been living after the Maidan for over 5 years, and nothing (deadly).
      But Donbass is special. There are such geniuses that they can not master the Ukrainian language.
      Despite the fact that since the days of the USSR he was taught as a second language. And in the Donbass - including ...

      Did not try NOT to confuse - can't and don't want? These are different things ...

      Quote: UpperMost
      ... And if there weren’t their (Donbass) booze in 2014, the whole country would be in a different situation now ...

      You did not try to recall how what you write here - “buza”? It seems that no - when, literally the next day, after the coup d'etat - yes, that’s what it is called, explicit statements have already begun - both about the actual ban on the language, and about the “friendship train” ...

      Quote: UpperMost
      ... Coups begin and end, but an armed booze is completely different ....

      Well, Donbass residents suddenly decided to use the army FIRST, against the civilian population - what’s next to talk about with you, everything is almost clear ...

      Quote: UpperMost
      ... So why support them - for not wanting to master the language (whose name, by the way, crooked with the name that country, from which they, the Donbass, tried to get out in 2014, and in which before that lived over 22 years), these "geniuses" turned their region upside down and chaotic everything in the country?
      .

      And so it is they, it turns out, they all “chaotic” and “turned” - well, if you think so, it does NOT mean that everything was just that, and your opinion is the only ...
      And from the country that persistently tried to MAKE them live by the "rules", they ALREADY left, whether you or someone else want it or not ...
  19. The comment was deleted.
  20. Upmost Offline Upmost
    Upmost (Innocent) 11 December 2019 13: 24
    -1
    Quote: 321
    Well, Donbass people suddenly decided to use the army FIRST.

    In Chechnya, they also wanted to live independently. But in the Russian Federation reasonably stated that this is part of Russia, and that’s all. Point.
    But in Ukraine they should have listened?
    No, of course I understand that it was the junta that started shooting at people.
    But the bottom line is that those people in the Donbass, when they went to rallies in April 2014, were inspired by the peremptory nature of Crimea.
    And of course, they did not think that, unlike Crimea, in the Donbass the Russian Federation would prefer not to act as categorically, but would pull the cat for a certain place, involve the OSCE in this case, try to put the "boozing" and "junta" at the negotiating table (remember , the very first of the useless agreements on this topic - Geneva, April 2014).
    And when they realized that in the normal way the Russian Federation was not going to help, it was already June-July 2014, shelling of cities, victims and blood.
    And now, after all this, the Russian Federation is trying to "shove the unproductive" back into Ukraine.
    And moreover, the President of the Russian Federation recently "realized" that if he gave Ukraine free rein to control the border, "Srebrenitsa would begin" there.

    And why was it necessary to put the Donbass on the brink of war, instead of ANY timely help like Crimea, OR TIMELY SAME WARNING THAT THERE WILL NOT BE SUCH HELP (in an amicable way, no later than mid-April 2014, because even then it was clear WHAT the "buzzing people in Donbass" want). So that people do not create a blood-fatal conflict among themselves, after which it will not be possible to make peace just like that.

    And here is the hitch: so that Ukraine would be in the status of a state with an unresolved territorial issue, and could not "quickly" join NATO.

    Sorry for the directness ...
    1. plabu Offline plabu
      plabu 11 December 2019 16: 11
      +2
      Quote: UpperMost
      ... In Chechnya, they also wanted to live independently. But in the Russian Federation reasonably stated that this is part of Russia, and that’s all. Point.
      But in Ukraine they should have listened? ...

      The situations are different, that’s all - after the first attempt by Chechnya to live on its own, it was practically released there, at first without status, so to speak, de facto, but it was temporary.
      But when Chechnya itself actually went to conquer Dagestan, it was already completely different, and the consequences for those who arranged and organized it were different ...

      Quote: UpperMost
      ... And when they realized that in the normal way the Russian Federation was not going to help, it was already June-July 2014, shelling of cities, victims and blood.
      And now, after all this, the Russian Federation is trying to "shove the unproductive" back into Ukraine.
      And moreover, the President of the Russian Federation recently "realized" that if he gave Ukraine free rein to control the border, "Srebrenica will begin" there ...

      To help normally is a different concept for many, if WOULD not help Russia to one degree or another, that is, a suspicion that it would be over.
      As for "trying to push it out" ... - you can say different things, but practice is already different, so the statements will continue, but in practice it is completely different, in my opinion ...
      And about the "got it" - just recently? In my opinion, statements about this subject oh how not yesterday or last month began.
  21. Upmost Offline Upmost
    Upmost (Innocent) 11 December 2019 13: 40
    -1
    Quote: 321
    And from the country that persistently tried to MAKE them live by the "rules", they ALREADY actually left

    The problem is that they have already left THIS country, but TO ANOTHER (treasured) nobody was going to accept them and is not going to.
    And such a status is the worst. Quasi-state is a reservation. Do you think they are very good there, come out?
    Note that the Russian press no longer writes anything about the mood of Donbass residents. Because the positive you will not find there.
    And to listen to the statements of (Th) Pushilin - do not respect yourself.
    In general, the Donbass people were under such a comprehensive blow, which you would not wish for the enemy .....
  22. Valentine Offline Valentine
    Valentine (Valentin) 11 December 2019 18: 14
    +2
    Quote: gorenina91
    . -But, whatever one may say ...- Ukrainians are still much more aggressive against the Russians .. rather than vice versa.

    .... You, Irina, do not confuse the Ukrainians with the Galicians, and such a nation already exists, only before it was called "zapadentsy", in view of its political "expediency", so as not to offend our former "brothers", and the whole front rests on these thugs, and mainly in the Armed Forces - forced recruits, or to feed families ... I had the pleasure, by the will of fate, to stay in the Donbass under their shelling and bombing for 2,5 years, so I hated everyone, so there are many forced ones, and there are a lot of motivated "blocking detachments", but "under arms" they will not hold out for a long time, or they will twitch, then they will end, or they will arrange a new riot and another coup, but this is their business.